6oxo alone or stack with non hormone
- 06-04-2009, 01:48 PM
6oxo alone or stack with non hormone
i have 6oxo i bought it when i was going to try H drol + OTC PCT. But i did the research and fround out i am way too young.. 18 to be doing Prohormones. anyways i still have 6 oxo from ergopharm 180 caps and i want to use it stand alone or stack with something such as DTHC. any suggestion on what to use? 165lb 5-7 18 year old. about 3 years hardcore lifting. im on a levithian RL andcycle ATM. i use JP8 preworkout.
- 06-04-2009, 02:57 PM
IMO i dont think you have anything to gain by taking 6 oxo or DTHC. At 18 your estrogen levels will be low already and your testosterone will be reaching its peak naturally . I would say that these supplements on someone your age will be a waste of money
In another post an 18 year old was taking x-tren which again is a waste of time and can be more harmful than herbal test boosters.
I would like to see the supplement industry take more responsibility and put warnings on labels that products like those mentioned shouldnt be consumed under the age of 25.
Warnings appear already on products advising consumers not to take if prone to various conditions , prostate, thyroid etc so an additional sentence wouldnt take a lot to do.
I m not sure is right for you either .Spend your money on something more worth while.
Reset AD is a supplement to be taken if you have adrenal fatigue which can result from taking too many stimulants or have a very stressful job .The product description says this- Morning Fatigue. Not seeming to "wake up" until 10am even though you've been up for 3 hours.
Middle of the Afternoon "Low". Sluggishness and clouded thinking in the middle of the day.
Burst of Energy around 6pm
Sleepiness around 9pm, but a "Second Energy Burst" around 11pm till 1am.
Lack of Energy
Muscular Weakness and declining
Weight gain, with extreme difficulty in losing it
Unrelaxing or Unfulfilling Sleep
Have you any of those symptoms?
Sorry but thats how i see it.
06-04-2009, 03:58 PM
Save it for next year after you have another full year of training under your belt
Get your FREE RIPPED GUIDE
06-04-2009, 08:08 PM
06-04-2009, 11:15 PM
06-04-2009, 11:51 PM
06-05-2009, 12:42 AM
^^^ *LOL*... You know what , i wont even bother. Eric - you should be ashamed..... that's all im saying ....
06-05-2009, 01:37 PM
6-oxo will convert to 6-oxotestosteorne and 6-oxoestradiol these are hormones that will bind to the AR and ER (with a lesser affinity than the native hormones) thus likely stimulating a lesser effect...
06-05-2009, 03:27 PM
06-05-2009, 04:08 PM
06-06-2009, 01:10 PM
06-06-2009, 04:03 PM
06-07-2009, 09:42 PM
Thats abunch of bull, i took 6-oxo stacked with DTHC for 6 weeks and it was awsome. I would be a definite buyer if your looking to get that off your hands
06-08-2009, 05:50 AM
06-08-2009, 06:01 AM
Pp if you looked at the study you would see it increases test levels about the same as 300 mgs and 600 mgs.
everyone knows 6-oxo is just an effective ai as any other. I usually dont say anything but you are just out to make a buck and are one of these people who will lie to make extra money.and I dont trust you anymore and will not be using your products. Goodluck lieing to people unless your just retarded and dont know how to read all the studies on 6-oxo which I doubt cause you seemed like a smart guy untill I heard this.
O and if you got beef with the man that brought 6-oxo, along with basically the whole ph market he doesnt even sell 6-oxo anymore , he doesnt work for Ergopharm. this whole thread sounds like your hating to me. PA is way smarter than you in this area and you know it. hell he brought the whole ph's to the market. regardless 6-oxo works and works well at what it claims to do and has had numberous studies to back up this fact!
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06-08-2009, 09:54 PM
Im not making personal attacks against anyone. I’m just stating the lack of utility behind an ingredient. I know a bit about steroidal AI’s since I researched them heavily several years ago when searching for an appropriate AI.
Yes, human studies have confirmed 6-oxo increases testosterone (well sorta). The problem is that 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxotestosterone (metabolites of 6-oxo) can cross-react with estrone and testosterone during an analysis. This is a known problem with steroidial AIs and their metabolites -
Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.
MD Donaldson and MG Forest
Steroids, Dec 1980; 36(6): 717-21
The issue was also mentioned here in the Baylor study -
“Concentrations of estrone increased, but in a manner that might be due to cross reactivity of 6OXO™ and the antibody used to measure those concentrations. Further research should be done to make the tests for hormone concentration more specific for that hormone and to make sure that similar compounds are not giving a false positive.”
But let’s just assume that 6-oxo actually did raise testosterone...
A 47% increase in total testosterone with a 99% increase in free testosterone (as 6-oxo purportedly does) should have caused a significant increase in fat free mass and strength. You can see in this study with 125mg/week test enanthate that significant improvements where made in FFM and strength (which essentially duplicated the T levels supposedly created by the 6-oxo) -
Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
Shalender Bhasin, et al.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, Dec 2001; 281: E1172 - E1181.
You can see in the Baylor study that the 6-oxo group didn’t have a single improvement in LBM, FM, strength... nada... no benefits. Here is a quote right from the study –
“6OXO™ supplementation does not appear to affect body variables such as FFM and FM related to body composition. Supplementation with 6-OXO™ did not cause an anabolic response by changing fat free mass, lean mass, or total mass. The possible reason for this even with the increase in testosterone could be due to high dose concentrations. It may be that at such a dose as was looked at in this study that the body is inundated with 6-OXO™ that it is competing at the androgen receptor not allowing testosterone to bind and have its anabolic effect. If a lower doses were studied it might be seen that there is an increase in testosterone and because there would be much less 6-OXO™ to compete at the androgen receptor leading to an increase in fat free mass and possibly a decrease in fat mass.”
And further stating…
“It was seen that both supplement groups had higher testosterone and free testosterone levels than the control group. The control group’s hormone levels hardly changed over the course of the workout period while the supplement groups had peak increases of 30% (300 mg) and 47% (600 mg) in total testosterone concentrations and 116% (300 mg) and 99% (600 mg) increase in free testosterone concentrations. These changes were similar to the work done by Incledon (unpublished observations). This proves that 6OXO™ does indeed increase testosterone and free testosterone concentrations. While this might suggest that 6OXO™ supplementation would lead to increased muscle mass because of the anabolic effect of higher testosterone levels, this is not necessarily true because in our experiments it was seen that there were no increases in lean muscle mass or improvements in body composition. This lack of change even at higher testosterone levels can probably be attributed to 6OXO™’s chemical structure. By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass with increased testosterone concentrations.”
Plus, there is plenty of other research suggesting binding (or antagonizing) of the AR with steroidial AI’s –
Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.
JH Davies, RJ Shearer, MG Rowlands, GK Poon, J Houghton, M Jarman, and M Dowsett
J Enzyme Inhib, January 1, 1992; 6(2): 141-7.
Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen.
Ariazi EA, Leitão A, Oprea TI, Chen B, Louis T, Bertucci AM, Sharma CG, Gill SD, Kim HR, Shupp HA, Pyle JR, Madrack A, Donato AL, Cheng D, Paige JR, Jordan VC.
Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center, Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, USA.
Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.
Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.
So there you have it. 6-oxo is an anti-androgen and too weak of an AI to be effective for estrogen reduction. 6-oxo is about as useful as flutamide.
06-08-2009, 10:10 PM
06-08-2009, 10:11 PM
06-08-2009, 10:14 PM
06-09-2009, 12:24 AM
The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 6-OXO, a purported nutritional
aromatase inhibitor, in a dose dependent manner on body composition, serum hormone levels,
and clinical safety markers in resistance trained males. Sixteen males were supplemented with
either 300 mg or 600 mg of 6-OXO in a double-blind manner for eight weeks. Blood and urine
samples were obtained at weeks 0, 1, 3, 8, and 11 (after a 3-week washout period). Blood
samples were analyzed for total testosterone (TT), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone
(DHT), estradiol, estriol, estrone, SHBG, leutinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone
(FSH), growth hormone (GH), cortisol, FT/estradiol (T/E). Blood and urine were also analyzed
for clinical chemistry markers. Data were analyzed with two-way MANOVA. For all of the
serum hormones, there were no significant differences between groups (p > 0.05). Compared to
baseline, free testosterone underwent overall increases of 90% for 300 mg 6-OXO and 84% for
600 mg, respectively (p < 0.05). DHT underwent significant overall increases (p < 0.05) of
192% and 265% with 300 mg and 600 mg, respectively. T/E increased 53% and 67% for 300
mg and 600 mg 6-OXO, respectively. For estrone, 300 mg produced an overall increase of 22%,
whereas 600 mg caused a 52% increase (p < 0.05). Body composition did not change with
supplementation (p > 0.05) and clinical safety markers were not adversely affected with
ingestion of either supplement dose (p > 0.05). While neither of the 6-OXO dosages appears to
have any negative effects on clinical chemistry markers, supplementation at a daily dosage of
300 mg and 600 mg for eight weeks did not completely inhibit aromatase activity, yet
significantly increased FT, DHT, and T/E.
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06-09-2009, 01:58 PM
06-09-2009, 02:00 PM
06-10-2009, 12:07 AM
06-10-2009, 12:53 AM
06-10-2009, 01:27 AM
The point is 6oxo's effect on test...its an AI ..and a good one as any other ,thats its primary purpose.
Pp are you saying 6-oxo as a Aromatase Inhibitors is ineffective?
From my studies it wouldnt be the best otc compound for a cycle, from an otc standpoint sustain alpha would be good or stroked by ax..an ai is probally not best, from my research an ai is best used later on on weeks 3 or 4 for a few weeks
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06-10-2009, 01:42 PM
Besides, none of the human studies have shown a reduction in total estrogen with 6-oxo. That should tell you something.
06-10-2009, 07:03 PM
form inhibits estorgen what 87 % around that also form converts into a steroid hydroxtest or something like that and people are using this as a cycle. so it is debtable whether one would use this pct or not
Eric Im curious to as what you look like being the head of PP? do you copmpete or are you just a science guy like Patrick? Patrick has backed up his body by all means over the years
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06-11-2009, 12:23 AM
Anyway, I don’t suggest the use of any steroidial AI for PCT. I think foremstane has use as an AI during a highly estrogenic cycle, but that is neither here nor there.
I lift, but I don’t compete. Never even had the desire to. I’d say I maintain an average athletic build.
06-11-2009, 09:02 AM
06-18-2009, 09:00 AM
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