6oxo alone or stack with non hormone - AnabolicMinds.com

6oxo alone or stack with non hormone

  1. sakes's Avatar
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    6oxo alone or stack with non hormone


    i have 6oxo i bought it when i was going to try H drol + OTC PCT. But i did the research and fround out i am way too young.. 18 to be doing Prohormones. anyways i still have 6 oxo from ergopharm 180 caps and i want to use it stand alone or stack with something such as DTHC. any suggestion on what to use? 165lb 5-7 18 year old. about 3 years hardcore lifting. im on a levithian RL and reset AD cycle ATM. i use JP8 preworkout.

  2. corsaking's Avatar
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    IMO i dont think you have anything to gain by taking 6 oxo or DTHC. At 18 your estrogen levels will be low already and your testosterone will be reaching its peak naturally . I would say that these supplements on someone your age will be a waste of money
    In another post an 18 year old was taking x-tren which again is a waste of time and can be more harmful than herbal test boosters.
    I would like to see the supplement industry take more responsibility and put warnings on labels that products like those mentioned shouldnt be consumed under the age of 25.
    Warnings appear already on products advising consumers not to take if prone to various conditions , prostate, thyroid etc so an additional sentence wouldnt take a lot to do.

    I m not sure Reset AD is right for you either .Spend your money on something more worth while.
    Reset AD is a supplement to be taken if you have adrenal fatigue which can result from taking too many stimulants or have a very stressful job .The product description says this- Morning Fatigue. Not seeming to "wake up" until 10am even though you've been up for 3 hours.
    Middle of the Afternoon "Low". Sluggishness and clouded thinking in the middle of the day.
    Burst of Energy around 6pm
    Sleepiness around 9pm, but a "Second Energy Burst" around 11pm till 1am.
    Lack of Energy
    Muscular Weakness and declining endurance
    Weight gain, with extreme difficulty in losing it
    Unrelaxing or Unfulfilling Sleep
    Have you any of those symptoms?

    Sorry but thats how i see it.
  3. sublimejeh's Avatar
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    Save it for next year after you have another full year of training under your belt
    Get your FREE RIPPED GUIDE

    www.newstarathletics.com/rippedfree
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  4. Eric Potratz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakes View Post
    i have 6oxo i bought it when i was going to try H drol + OTC PCT. But i did the research and fround out i am way too young.. 18 to be doing Prohormones. anyways i still have 6 oxo from ergopharm 180 caps and i want to use it stand alone or stack with something such as DTHC. any suggestion on what to use? 165lb 5-7 18 year old. about 3 years hardcore lifting. im on a levithian RL and reset AD cycle ATM. i use JP8 preworkout.
    Yeah, give the 6-oxo to someone you dont like...

    -Eric
  5. sakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Yeah, give the 6-oxo to someone you dont like...

    -Eric
    uhh what? dont like whys that will 6oxo be hardful to me or them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakes View Post
    uhh what? dont like whys that will 6oxo be hardful to me or them?
    Its an anti-androgen.. it will essentially block the benefits of the increased testosterone and prevent you from gaining muscle. (as you can see from the Ballor study)

    Not sure why the product was so popular to begin with...

    -Eric
  7. steveironman's Avatar
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    ^^^ *LOL*... You know what , i wont even bother. Eric - you should be ashamed..... that's all im saying ....
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveironman View Post
    ^^^ *LOL*... You know what , i wont even bother. Eric - you should be ashamed..... that's all im saying ....
    Go ahead and bother... Ive stated the same thing to Pat several times... he doesn't have much of a rebuttle.

    6-oxo will convert to 6-oxotestosteorne and 6-oxoestradiol these are hormones that will bind to the AR and ER (with a lesser affinity than the native hormones) thus likely stimulating a lesser effect...

    -Eric
  9. sakes's Avatar
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    so what should i do with the 6 oxo? take it or what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakes View Post
    so what should i do with the 6 oxo? take it or what?
    Don't take it dude, get some pre-workout stuff like NOexplode and you'll see and feel results better than you ever would on 6oxo. That stuff is used for post-cycle-therapy after a havoc, superdrol, or some other oral steroid. You don't want it, sell it to some doosherson in the gym for 50 bucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
  11. steveironman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Go ahead and bother... Ive stated the same thing to Pat several times... he doesn't have much of a rebuttle.

    6-oxo will convert to 6-oxotestosteorne and 6-oxoestradiol these are hormones that will bind to the AR and ER (with a lesser affinity than the native hormones) thus likely stimulating a lesser effect...

    -Eric
    Wow now theres a definitive scientific statement based 100% on speculation...as opposed to the MANY studies showing its effectiveness. Like i said - you should be ashamed. Period ,end of story eric...Gimme a break....
  12. Flaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakes View Post
    so what should i do with the 6 oxo? take it or what?
    Give it to me for $30 You def don't need it at your age.. Complete waste of money.. All you need is FOOD, SLEEP, and Good Training program.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
  13. srocco112's Avatar
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    Thats abunch of bull, i took 6-oxo stacked with DTHC for 6 weeks and it was awsome. I would be a definite buyer if your looking to get that off your hands
  14. corsaking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srocco112 View Post
    Thats abunch of bull, i took 6-oxo stacked with DTHC for 6 weeks and it was awsome. I would be a definite buyer if your looking to get that off your hands
    awesome ? in what way?
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    Pp if you looked at the study you would see it increases test levels about the same as 300 mgs and 600 mgs.

    everyone knows 6-oxo is just an effective ai as any other. I usually dont say anything but you are just out to make a buck and are one of these people who will lie to make extra money.and I dont trust you anymore and will not be using your products. Goodluck lieing to people unless your just retarded and dont know how to read all the studies on 6-oxo which I doubt cause you seemed like a smart guy untill I heard this.

    O and if you got beef with the man that brought 6-oxo, along with basically the whole ph market he doesnt even sell 6-oxo anymore , he doesnt work for Ergopharm. this whole thread sounds like your hating to me. PA is way smarter than you in this area and you know it. hell he brought the whole ph's to the market. regardless 6-oxo works and works well at what it claims to do and has had numberous studies to back up this fact!
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
  16. Eric Potratz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    Pp if you looked at the study you would see it increases test levels about the same as 300 mgs and 600 mgs.

    everyone knows 6-oxo is just an effective ai as any other. I usually dont say anything but you are just out to make a buck and are one of these people who will lie to make extra money.and I dont trust you anymore and will not be using your products. Goodluck lieing to people unless your just retarded and dont know how to read all the studies on 6-oxo which I doubt cause you seemed like a smart guy untill I heard this.

    O and if you got beef with the man that brought 6-oxo, along with basically the whole ph market he doesnt even sell 6-oxo anymore , he doesnt work for Ergopharm. this whole thread sounds like your hating to me. PA is way smarter than you in this area and you know it. hell he brought the whole ph's to the market. regardless 6-oxo works and works well at what it claims to do and has had numberous studies to back up this fact!

    Im not making personal attacks against anyone. I’m just stating the lack of utility behind an ingredient. I know a bit about steroidal AI’s since I researched them heavily several years ago when searching for an appropriate AI.

    Yes, human studies have confirmed 6-oxo increases testosterone (well sorta). The problem is that 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxotestosterone (metabolites of 6-oxo) can cross-react with estrone and testosterone during an analysis. This is a known problem with steroidial AIs and their metabolites -

    Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.
    MD Donaldson and MG Forest
    Steroids, Dec 1980; 36(6): 717-21


    The issue was also mentioned here in the Baylor study -

    “Concentrations of estrone increased, but in a manner that might be due to cross reactivity of 6OXO™ and the antibody used to measure those concentrations. Further research should be done to make the tests for hormone concentration more specific for that hormone and to make sure that similar compounds are not giving a false positive.”

    But let’s just assume that 6-oxo actually did raise testosterone...

    A 47% increase in total testosterone with a 99% increase in free testosterone (as 6-oxo purportedly does) should have caused a significant increase in fat free mass and strength. You can see in this study with 125mg/week test enanthate that significant improvements where made in FFM and strength (which essentially duplicated the T levels supposedly created by the 6-oxo) -

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
    Shalender Bhasin, et al.
    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, Dec 2001; 281: E1172 - E1181.


    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/re...urcetype=HWCIT


    You can see in the Baylor study that the 6-oxo group didn’t have a single improvement in LBM, FM, strength... nada... no benefits. Here is a quote right from the study –

    “6OXO™ supplementation does not appear to affect body variables such as FFM and FM related to body composition. Supplementation with 6-OXO™ did not cause an anabolic response by changing fat free mass, lean mass, or total mass. The possible reason for this even with the increase in testosterone could be due to high dose concentrations. It may be that at such a dose as was looked at in this study that the body is inundated with 6-OXO™ that it is competing at the androgen receptor not allowing testosterone to bind and have its anabolic effect. If a lower doses were studied it might be seen that there is an increase in testosterone and because there would be much less 6-OXO™ to compete at the androgen receptor leading to an increase in fat free mass and possibly a decrease in fat mass.”

    And further stating…

    “It was seen that both supplement groups had higher testosterone and free testosterone levels than the control group. The control group’s hormone levels hardly changed over the course of the workout period while the supplement groups had peak increases of 30% (300 mg) and 47% (600 mg) in total testosterone concentrations and 116% (300 mg) and 99% (600 mg) increase in free testosterone concentrations. These changes were similar to the work done by Incledon (unpublished observations). This proves that 6OXO™ does indeed increase testosterone and free testosterone concentrations. While this might suggest that 6OXO™ supplementation would lead to increased muscle mass because of the anabolic effect of higher testosterone levels, this is not necessarily true because in our experiments it was seen that there were no increases in lean muscle mass or improvements in body composition. This lack of change even at higher testosterone levels can probably be attributed to 6OXO™’s chemical structure. By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass with increased testosterone concentrations.


    https://beardocs.baylor.edu/bitstream/2104/...hle_masters.pdf

    Plus, there is plenty of other research suggesting binding (or antagonizing) of the AR with steroidial AI’s –


    Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.
    JH Davies, RJ Shearer, MG Rowlands, GK Poon, J Houghton, M Jarman, and M Dowsett
    J Enzyme Inhib, January 1, 1992; 6(2): 141-7.

    Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen.
    Ariazi EA, Leitão A, Oprea TI, Chen B, Louis T, Bertucci AM, Sharma CG, Gill SD, Kim HR, Shupp HA, Pyle JR, Madrack A, Donato AL, Cheng D, Paige JR, Jordan VC.
    Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center, Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

    Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
    Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
    Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.

    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
    ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
    Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.



    So there you have it. 6-oxo is an anti-androgen and too weak of an AI to be effective for estrogen reduction. 6-oxo is about as useful as flutamide.

    -Eric
  17. timmmah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Im not making personal attacks against anyone. I’m just stating the lack of utility behind an ingredient. I know a bit about steroidal AI’s since I researched them heavily several years ago when searching for an appropriate AI.

    Yes, human studies have confirmed 6-oxo increases testosterone (well sorta). The problem is that 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxotestosterone (metabolites of 6-oxo) can cross-react with estrone and testosterone during an analysis. This is a known problem with steroidial AIs and their metabolites -

    Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.
    MD Donaldson and MG Forest
    Steroids, Dec 1980; 36(6): 717-21


    The issue was also mentioned here in the Baylor study -

    “Concentrations of estrone increased, but in a manner that might be due to cross reactivity of 6OXO™ and the antibody used to measure those concentrations. Further research should be done to make the tests for hormone concentration more specific for that hormone and to make sure that similar compounds are not giving a false positive.”

    But let’s just assume that 6-oxo actually did raise testosterone...

    A 47% increase in total testosterone with a 99% increase in free testosterone (as 6-oxo purportedly does) should have caused a significant increase in fat free mass and strength. You can see in this study with 125mg/week test enanthate that significant improvements where made in FFM and strength (which essentially duplicated the T levels supposedly created by the 6-oxo) -

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
    Shalender Bhasin, et al.
    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, Dec 2001; 281: E1172 - E1181.


    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/re...urcetype=HWCIT


    You can see in the Baylor study that the 6-oxo group didn’t have a single improvement in LBM, FM, strength... nada... no benefits. Here is a quote right from the study –

    “6OXO™ supplementation does not appear to affect body variables such as FFM and FM related to body composition. Supplementation with 6-OXO™ did not cause an anabolic response by changing fat free mass, lean mass, or total mass. The possible reason for this even with the increase in testosterone could be due to high dose concentrations. It may be that at such a dose as was looked at in this study that the body is inundated with 6-OXO™ that it is competing at the androgen receptor not allowing testosterone to bind and have its anabolic effect. If a lower doses were studied it might be seen that there is an increase in testosterone and because there would be much less 6-OXO™ to compete at the androgen receptor leading to an increase in fat free mass and possibly a decrease in fat mass.”

    And further stating…

    “It was seen that both supplement groups had higher testosterone and free testosterone levels than the control group. The control group’s hormone levels hardly changed over the course of the workout period while the supplement groups had peak increases of 30% (300 mg) and 47% (600 mg) in total testosterone concentrations and 116% (300 mg) and 99% (600 mg) increase in free testosterone concentrations. These changes were similar to the work done by Incledon (unpublished observations). This proves that 6OXO™ does indeed increase testosterone and free testosterone concentrations. While this might suggest that 6OXO™ supplementation would lead to increased muscle mass because of the anabolic effect of higher testosterone levels, this is not necessarily true because in our experiments it was seen that there were no increases in lean muscle mass or improvements in body composition. This lack of change even at higher testosterone levels can probably be attributed to 6OXO™’s chemical structure. By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass with increased testosterone concentrations.


    https://beardocs.baylor.edu/bitstream/2104/...hle_masters.pdf

    Plus, there is plenty of other research suggesting binding (or antagonizing) of the AR with steroidial AI’s –


    Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.
    JH Davies, RJ Shearer, MG Rowlands, GK Poon, J Houghton, M Jarman, and M Dowsett
    J Enzyme Inhib, January 1, 1992; 6(2): 141-7.

    Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen.
    Ariazi EA, Leitão A, Oprea TI, Chen B, Louis T, Bertucci AM, Sharma CG, Gill SD, Kim HR, Shupp HA, Pyle JR, Madrack A, Donato AL, Cheng D, Paige JR, Jordan VC.
    Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center, Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

    Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
    Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
    Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.

    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
    ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
    Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.



    So there you have it. 6-oxo is an anti-androgen and too weak of an AI to be effective for estrogen reduction. 6-oxo is about as useful as flutamide.

    -Eric




    U DA MAN!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
  18. timmmah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Im not making personal attacks against anyone. I’m just stating the lack of utility behind an ingredient. I know a bit about steroidal AI’s since I researched them heavily several years ago when searching for an appropriate AI.

    Yes, human studies have confirmed 6-oxo increases testosterone (well sorta). The problem is that 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxotestosterone (metabolites of 6-oxo) can cross-react with estrone and testosterone during an analysis. This is a known problem with steroidial AIs and their metabolites -

    Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.
    MD Donaldson and MG Forest
    Steroids, Dec 1980; 36(6): 717-21


    The issue was also mentioned here in the Baylor study -

    “Concentrations of estrone increased, but in a manner that might be due to cross reactivity of 6OXO™ and the antibody used to measure those concentrations. Further research should be done to make the tests for hormone concentration more specific for that hormone and to make sure that similar compounds are not giving a false positive.”

    But let’s just assume that 6-oxo actually did raise testosterone...

    A 47% increase in total testosterone with a 99% increase in free testosterone (as 6-oxo purportedly does) should have caused a significant increase in fat free mass and strength. You can see in this study with 125mg/week test enanthate that significant improvements where made in FFM and strength (which essentially duplicated the T levels supposedly created by the 6-oxo) -

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
    Shalender Bhasin, et al.
    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, Dec 2001; 281: E1172 - E1181.


    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/re...urcetype=HWCIT


    You can see in the Baylor study that the 6-oxo group didn’t have a single improvement in LBM, FM, strength... nada... no benefits. Here is a quote right from the study –

    “6OXO™ supplementation does not appear to affect body variables such as FFM and FM related to body composition. Supplementation with 6-OXO™ did not cause an anabolic response by changing fat free mass, lean mass, or total mass. The possible reason for this even with the increase in testosterone could be due to high dose concentrations. It may be that at such a dose as was looked at in this study that the body is inundated with 6-OXO™ that it is competing at the androgen receptor not allowing testosterone to bind and have its anabolic effect. If a lower doses were studied it might be seen that there is an increase in testosterone and because there would be much less 6-OXO™ to compete at the androgen receptor leading to an increase in fat free mass and possibly a decrease in fat mass.”

    And further stating…

    “It was seen that both supplement groups had higher testosterone and free testosterone levels than the control group. The control group’s hormone levels hardly changed over the course of the workout period while the supplement groups had peak increases of 30% (300 mg) and 47% (600 mg) in total testosterone concentrations and 116% (300 mg) and 99% (600 mg) increase in free testosterone concentrations. These changes were similar to the work done by Incledon (unpublished observations). This proves that 6OXO™ does indeed increase testosterone and free testosterone concentrations. While this might suggest that 6OXO™ supplementation would lead to increased muscle mass because of the anabolic effect of higher testosterone levels, this is not necessarily true because in our experiments it was seen that there were no increases in lean muscle mass or improvements in body composition. This lack of change even at higher testosterone levels can probably be attributed to 6OXO™’s chemical structure. By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass with increased testosterone concentrations.


    https://beardocs.baylor.edu/bitstream/2104/...hle_masters.pdf

    Plus, there is plenty of other research suggesting binding (or antagonizing) of the AR with steroidial AI’s –


    Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.
    JH Davies, RJ Shearer, MG Rowlands, GK Poon, J Houghton, M Jarman, and M Dowsett
    J Enzyme Inhib, January 1, 1992; 6(2): 141-7.

    Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen.
    Ariazi EA, Leitão A, Oprea TI, Chen B, Louis T, Bertucci AM, Sharma CG, Gill SD, Kim HR, Shupp HA, Pyle JR, Madrack A, Donato AL, Cheng D, Paige JR, Jordan VC.
    Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center, Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

    Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
    Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
    Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.

    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
    ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
    Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.



    So there you have it. 6-oxo is an anti-androgen and too weak of an AI to be effective for estrogen reduction. 6-oxo is about as useful as flutamide.

    -Eric




    U DA MAN!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
  19. Rick28's Avatar
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    I like 6oxo but love it better when stacked with a natural test booster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Im not making personal attacks against anyone. I’m just stating the lack of utility behind an ingredient. I know a bit about steroidal AI’s since I researched them heavily several years ago when searching for an appropriate AI.

    Yes, human studies have confirmed 6-oxo increases testosterone (well sorta). The problem is that 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxotestosterone (metabolites of 6-oxo) can cross-react with estrone and testosterone during an analysis. This is a known problem with steroidial AIs and their metabolites -

    Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.
    MD Donaldson and MG Forest
    Steroids, Dec 1980; 36(6): 717-21


    The issue was also mentioned here in the Baylor study -

    “Concentrations of estrone increased, but in a manner that might be due to cross reactivity of 6OXO™ and the antibody used to measure those concentrations. Further research should be done to make the tests for hormone concentration more specific for that hormone and to make sure that similar compounds are not giving a false positive.”

    But let’s just assume that 6-oxo actually did raise testosterone...

    A 47% increase in total testosterone with a 99% increase in free testosterone (as 6-oxo purportedly does) should have caused a significant increase in fat free mass and strength. You can see in this study with 125mg/week test enanthate that significant improvements where made in FFM and strength (which essentially duplicated the T levels supposedly created by the 6-oxo) -

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
    Shalender Bhasin, et al.
    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, Dec 2001; 281: E1172 - E1181.


    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/re...urcetype=HWCIT


    You can see in the Baylor study that the 6-oxo group didn’t have a single improvement in LBM, FM, strength... nada... no benefits. Here is a quote right from the study –

    “6OXO™ supplementation does not appear to affect body variables such as FFM and FM related to body composition. Supplementation with 6-OXO™ did not cause an anabolic response by changing fat free mass, lean mass, or total mass. The possible reason for this even with the increase in testosterone could be due to high dose concentrations. It may be that at such a dose as was looked at in this study that the body is inundated with 6-OXO™ that it is competing at the androgen receptor not allowing testosterone to bind and have its anabolic effect. If a lower doses were studied it might be seen that there is an increase in testosterone and because there would be much less 6-OXO™ to compete at the androgen receptor leading to an increase in fat free mass and possibly a decrease in fat mass.”

    And further stating…

    “It was seen that both supplement groups had higher testosterone and free testosterone levels than the control group. The control group’s hormone levels hardly changed over the course of the workout period while the supplement groups had peak increases of 30% (300 mg) and 47% (600 mg) in total testosterone concentrations and 116% (300 mg) and 99% (600 mg) increase in free testosterone concentrations. These changes were similar to the work done by Incledon (unpublished observations). This proves that 6OXO™ does indeed increase testosterone and free testosterone concentrations. While this might suggest that 6OXO™ supplementation would lead to increased muscle mass because of the anabolic effect of higher testosterone levels, this is not necessarily true because in our experiments it was seen that there were no increases in lean muscle mass or improvements in body composition. This lack of change even at higher testosterone levels can probably be attributed to 6OXO™’s chemical structure. By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass with increased testosterone concentrations.


    https://beardocs.baylor.edu/bitstream/2104/...hle_masters.pdf

    Plus, there is plenty of other research suggesting binding (or antagonizing) of the AR with steroidial AI’s –


    Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.
    JH Davies, RJ Shearer, MG Rowlands, GK Poon, J Houghton, M Jarman, and M Dowsett
    J Enzyme Inhib, January 1, 1992; 6(2): 141-7.

    Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen.
    Ariazi EA, Leitão A, Oprea TI, Chen B, Louis T, Bertucci AM, Sharma CG, Gill SD, Kim HR, Shupp HA, Pyle JR, Madrack A, Donato AL, Cheng D, Paige JR, Jordan VC.
    Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center, Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

    Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
    Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
    Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.

    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
    ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
    Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.



    So there you have it. 6-oxo is an anti-androgen and too weak of an AI to be effective for estrogen reduction. 6-oxo is about as useful as flutamide.

    -Eric
    alright I misunderstood you then. sorry I owe you reps. It works for me. increased aggession and possible hair shedding which indicates teststerone and dht.


    Abstract
    The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 6-OXO, a purported nutritional
    aromatase inhibitor, in a dose dependent manner on body composition, serum hormone levels,
    and clinical safety markers in resistance trained males. Sixteen males were supplemented with
    either 300 mg or 600 mg of 6-OXO in a double-blind manner for eight weeks. Blood and urine
    samples were obtained at weeks 0, 1, 3, 8, and 11 (after a 3-week washout period). Blood
    samples were analyzed for total testosterone (TT), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone
    (DHT), estradiol, estriol, estrone, SHBG, leutinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone
    (FSH), growth hormone (GH), cortisol, FT/estradiol (T/E). Blood and urine were also analyzed
    for clinical chemistry markers. Data were analyzed with two-way MANOVA. For all of the
    serum hormones, there were no significant differences between groups (p > 0.05). Compared to
    baseline, free testosterone underwent overall increases of 90% for 300 mg 6-OXO and 84% for
    600 mg, respectively (p < 0.05). DHT underwent significant overall increases (p < 0.05) of
    192% and 265% with 300 mg and 600 mg, respectively. T/E increased 53% and 67% for 300
    mg and 600 mg 6-OXO, respectively. For estrone, 300 mg produced an overall increase of 22%,
    whereas 600 mg caused a 52% increase (p < 0.05). Body composition did not change with
    supplementation (p > 0.05) and clinical safety markers were not adversely affected with
    ingestion of either supplement dose (p > 0.05). While neither of the 6-OXO dosages appears to
    have any negative effects on clinical chemistry markers, supplementation at a daily dosage of
    300 mg and 600 mg for eight weeks did not completely inhibit aromatase activity, yet
    significantly increased FT, DHT, and T/E.
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    alright I misunderstood you then. sorry I owe you reps. It works for me. increased aggession and possible hair shedding which indicates teststerone and dht.


    Abstract
    The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 6-OXO, a purported nutritional
    aromatase inhibitor, in a dose dependent manner on body composition, serum hormone levels,
    and clinical safety markers in resistance trained males. Sixteen males were supplemented with
    either 300 mg or 600 mg of 6-OXO in a double-blind manner for eight weeks. Blood and urine
    samples were obtained at weeks 0, 1, 3, 8, and 11 (after a 3-week washout period). Blood
    samples were analyzed for total testosterone (TT), free testosterone (FT), dihydrotestosterone
    (DHT), estradiol, estriol, estrone, SHBG, leutinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone
    (FSH), growth hormone (GH), cortisol, FT/estradiol (T/E). Blood and urine were also analyzed
    for clinical chemistry markers. Data were analyzed with two-way MANOVA. For all of the
    serum hormones, there were no significant differences between groups (p > 0.05). Compared to
    baseline, free testosterone underwent overall increases of 90% for 300 mg 6-OXO and 84% for
    600 mg, respectively (p < 0.05). DHT underwent significant overall increases (p < 0.05) of
    192% and 265% with 300 mg and 600 mg, respectively. T/E increased 53% and 67% for 300
    mg and 600 mg 6-OXO, respectively. For estrone, 300 mg produced an overall increase of 22%,
    whereas 600 mg caused a 52% increase (p < 0.05). Body composition did not change with
    supplementation (p > 0.05) and clinical safety markers were not adversely affected with
    ingestion of either supplement dose (p > 0.05). While neither of the 6-OXO dosages appears to
    have any negative effects on clinical chemistry markers, supplementation at a daily dosage of
    300 mg and 600 mg for eight weeks did not completely inhibit aromatase activity, yet
    significantly increased FT, DHT, and T/E.
    no prob.. most people just dont understand how these steroidial AI's work or what they can convert into.

    -Eric
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    subbed....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Im not making personal attacks against anyone. I’m just stating the lack of utility behind an ingredient. I know a bit about steroidal AI’s since I researched them heavily several years ago when searching for an appropriate AI.

    Yes, human studies have confirmed 6-oxo increases testosterone (well sorta). The problem is that 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxotestosterone (metabolites of 6-oxo) can cross-react with estrone and testosterone during an analysis. This is a known problem with steroidial AIs and their metabolites -

    Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.
    MD Donaldson and MG Forest
    Steroids, Dec 1980; 36(6): 717-21


    The issue was also mentioned here in the Baylor study -

    “Concentrations of estrone increased, but in a manner that might be due to cross reactivity of 6OXO™ and the antibody used to measure those concentrations. Further research should be done to make the tests for hormone concentration more specific for that hormone and to make sure that similar compounds are not giving a false positive.”

    But let’s just assume that 6-oxo actually did raise testosterone...

    A 47% increase in total testosterone with a 99% increase in free testosterone (as 6-oxo purportedly does) should have caused a significant increase in fat free mass and strength. You can see in this study with 125mg/week test enanthate that significant improvements where made in FFM and strength (which essentially duplicated the T levels supposedly created by the 6-oxo) -

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
    Shalender Bhasin, et al.
    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, Dec 2001; 281: E1172 - E1181.


    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/re...urcetype=HWCIT


    You can see in the Baylor study that the 6-oxo group didn’t have a single improvement in LBM, FM, strength... nada... no benefits. Here is a quote right from the study –

    “6OXO™ supplementation does not appear to affect body variables such as FFM and FM related to body composition. Supplementation with 6-OXO™ did not cause an anabolic response by changing fat free mass, lean mass, or total mass. The possible reason for this even with the increase in testosterone could be due to high dose concentrations. It may be that at such a dose as was looked at in this study that the body is inundated with 6-OXO™ that it is competing at the androgen receptor not allowing testosterone to bind and have its anabolic effect. If a lower doses were studied it might be seen that there is an increase in testosterone and because there would be much less 6-OXO™ to compete at the androgen receptor leading to an increase in fat free mass and possibly a decrease in fat mass.”

    And further stating…

    “It was seen that both supplement groups had higher testosterone and free testosterone levels than the control group. The control group’s hormone levels hardly changed over the course of the workout period while the supplement groups had peak increases of 30% (300 mg) and 47% (600 mg) in total testosterone concentrations and 116% (300 mg) and 99% (600 mg) increase in free testosterone concentrations. These changes were similar to the work done by Incledon (unpublished observations). This proves that 6OXO™ does indeed increase testosterone and free testosterone concentrations. While this might suggest that 6OXO™ supplementation would lead to increased muscle mass because of the anabolic effect of higher testosterone levels, this is not necessarily true because in our experiments it was seen that there were no increases in lean muscle mass or improvements in body composition. This lack of change even at higher testosterone levels can probably be attributed to 6OXO™’s chemical structure. By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass with increased testosterone concentrations.


    https://beardocs.baylor.edu/bitstream/2104/...hle_masters.pdf

    Plus, there is plenty of other research suggesting binding (or antagonizing) of the AR with steroidial AI’s –


    Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.
    JH Davies, RJ Shearer, MG Rowlands, GK Poon, J Houghton, M Jarman, and M Dowsett
    J Enzyme Inhib, January 1, 1992; 6(2): 141-7.

    Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen.
    Ariazi EA, Leitão A, Oprea TI, Chen B, Louis T, Bertucci AM, Sharma CG, Gill SD, Kim HR, Shupp HA, Pyle JR, Madrack A, Donato AL, Cheng D, Paige JR, Jordan VC.
    Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive Cancer Center, Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

    Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
    Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
    Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.

    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
    ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
    Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.



    So there you have it. 6-oxo is an anti-androgen and too weak of an AI to be effective for estrogen reduction. 6-oxo is about as useful as flutamide.

    -Eric
    Eric - The study you quotes sates NO specific proof this occurs. Just speculation. Also lets remember the main purpose of 6 oxo. Your argument is weak and without strong foundation whatsoever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveironman View Post
    Eric - The study you quotes sates NO specific proof this occurs. Just speculation. Also lets remember the main purpose of 6 oxo. Your argument is weak and without strong foundation whatsoever.
    Steve - this above post is weak and without strong foundation whatsoever.
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    The point is 6oxo's effect on test...its an AI ..and a good one as any other ,thats its primary purpose.

    Pp are you saying 6-oxo as a Aromatase Inhibitors is ineffective?

    From my studies it wouldnt be the best otc compound for a cycle, from an otc standpoint sustain alpha would be good or stroked by ax..an ai is probally not best, from my research an ai is best used later on on weeks 3 or 4 for a few weeks
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    The point is 6oxo's effect on test...its an AI ..and a good one as any other ,thats its primary purpose.

    Pp are you saying 6-oxo as a Aromatase Inhibitors is ineffective?

    From my studies it wouldnt be the best otc compound for a cycle, from an otc standpoint sustain alpha would be good or stroked by ax..an ai is probally not best, from my research an ai is best used later on on weeks 3 or 4 for a few weeks
    6-oxo is quite a bit weaker than exemestane or formestane in its aromatase binding affinity. Also, 6-oxo's metabolites, 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxoestradiol probably have estrogenic properties… so it would probably be the last AI I would choose among the steroidial AI’s.

    Besides, none of the human studies have shown a reduction in total estrogen with 6-oxo. That should tell you something.

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    6-oxo is quite a bit weaker than exemestane or formestane in its aromatase binding affinity. Also, 6-oxo's metabolites, 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxoestradiol probably have estrogenic properties… so it would probably be the last AI I would choose among the steroidial AI’s.

    Besides, none of the human studies have shown a reduction in total estrogen with 6-oxo. That should tell you something.

    -Eric
    of course it doesnt lower estrogen as much. thats the point. You need some estrogen. elimating it entirely is worse. now if your estrogen is high , thats totally different. It minimally lowers estogren while maxiumally riasing testostrone and dht as high as stuff like atd. low dosed atd is a whole different subject!

    form inhibits estorgen what 87 % around that also form converts into a steroid hydroxtest or something like that and people are using this as a cycle. so it is debtable whether one would use this pct or not

    Eric Im curious to as what you look like being the head of PP? do you copmpete or are you just a science guy like Patrick? Patrick has backed up his body by all means over the years
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    of course it doesnt lower estrogen as much. thats the point. You need some estrogen. elimating it entirely is worse. now if your estrogen is high , thats totally different. It minimally lowers estogren while maxiumally riasing testostrone and dht as high as stuff like atd. low dosed atd is a whole different subject!

    form inhibits estorgen what 87 % around that also form converts into a steroid hydroxtest or something like that and people are using this as a cycle. so it is debtable whether one would use this pct or not

    Eric Im curious to as what you look like being the head of PP? do you copmpete or are you just a science guy like Patrick? Patrick has backed up his body by all means over the years
    I wasn’t commenting on whether raising or lowering estrogen is healthy…. Just the fact that 6-oxo is a very weak AI and I wouldn’t use to lower my estrogen. Id say the same thing about resveratrol… it’s a very weak AI and I wouldn’t use it if I needed to significantly reduce estrogen.

    Anyway, I don’t suggest the use of any steroidial AI for PCT. I think foremstane has use as an AI during a highly estrogenic cycle, but that is neither here nor there.

    I lift, but I don’t compete. Never even had the desire to. I’d say I maintain an average athletic build.

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    6-oxo is quite a bit weaker than exemestane or formestane in its aromatase binding affinity. Also, 6-oxo's metabolites, 6-oxoestrone and 6-oxoestradiol probably have estrogenic properties… so it would probably be the last AI I would choose among the steroidial AI’s.



    -Eric
    Yes and armidex is much weker than letrozole...thus its the preferred ai. Eric..jut stop ...this is just silly at this point....
  30. 1HP
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveironman View Post
    Yes and armidex is much weker than letrozole...thus its the preferred ai. Eric..jut stop ...this is just silly at this point....
    Eric is right though. 6-oxo doesnt lower estro. You get some effects that would suggest it does because it increases T+DHT/E ratio, you get a nice androgenic feel with less bloat etc, not because of lowered E but I suspect mainly because of DHT competing with estro.
  31. 1HP
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    btw Eric, a bit offtopic but do you have any info on resveratrol having slight estrogenic activity on estro b-receptors in breast tissue? Thanks..
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post




    U DA MAN!!!
    This isn't a response. Its not my thing but I'm am wondering whats going on here?

    6-oxo doing zip in PCT? Not sure how this got into supplements but I'm well into this argument.
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    Yup, that is a response.....It means good job Shmelton, you did your homework and I approve, like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
  34. Eric Potratz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1HP View Post
    btw Eric, a bit offtopic but do you have any info on resveratrol having slight estrogenic activity on estro b-receptors in breast tissue? Thanks..
    There is alot of info on that... the bottom line is that Res does good stuff.

    The drug companies are spending so much dang money on characterizing Res so they can modify the molecule and create a patentable drug.

    -Eric
  

  
 

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