low testosterone. planning SERM cycle

[twenty3]

Hi all, new member here!
I have been suffering from low testosterone, and I'd appreciate very much your insight and thoughts on this matter.

So, my case:
I have been having hormonal problems for about 1 year now. I have had 4 blood tests since then, all showing low testosterone. ACTH and cortisol also appear low. LH and FSH have been dropping about half point in each new blood test.
Sexual life has gone downhill, to the point now that I'm taking 25mg DHEA + 10mg Pregnenelone to be able to have an erection (libido is almost non-existant).

Last blood test came as follows:
LH 3.2 IU/L (1.7 - 8.6)
FSH 3.8 mIU/mL (1.50 - 12.40)
Estradiol 22.44 pg/mL (7.63 - 42.50)
Prolactin 15.0 ng/mL (4.60 - 21.40)
SHBG 25.5 nmol/L (13.00 - 71.00)
Testost. 363 ng/dL (285.30 - 801.15)
TSH 1.53 mIU/L (0.27 - 4.20)
Free T3 3.94 pg/mL (2.00 - 4.40)
Free T4 1.36 ng/dL (0.93 - 1.70)
DHEA-S 6.84 umol/L (6.0 - 17.1) for 25 or less years old
Cortisol 9.01 µg/dL (6.20 - 19.43) at 8am
ACTH 8.9 pg/mL (10.0 - 60.0)

Recently, per endocrinologist prescription, I did 2 months of Testoviron Enanthate (very low dose, only 125 mg of T. per month).
The goal was to give my system a rest, so that it would be able to catch up by the end of the 2 months. It didn't work, as proved by the symptoms and subsequent lab results (didn't supress further either).

So now, I've been reading about similar cases and doctors prescribing an 8-week cycle of SERM, to try to re-start the HPTA axis. Seems like exactly what I need.
I will also be starting 3 pills of Isocort per day (each pill is about 2.5mg of hydrocortisone), as I think I could benefit from it.
Before starting Nolvadex, I might do 1 month of Sustain Alpha, as I've heard it can boost Testosterone, and therefore give me some preparation for the subsequent Nolvadex cycle.
I wonder if I should drop the current DHEA and Pregnenelone supplement, or if I should mantain during this treatment.

So this is the my case, please let me know your advices, as it might help me a lot to get myself healthy again.

kind regards,
twenty3.

 

[JaredGalloway]

i think all u really need for the next 8 weeks is clomid (weeks 1-4) and sustain alpha (weeks 1-8)... i dont really see the point in taking tomax right now unless ur getting signs of gyno... and no i dont think the isocort will help... others please feel free to chime in...

or u could do this
Clomid (weeks 1-4)
dermacrine (weeks 1-8) PP reps please advise whether dermacrine can be taken for 8 weeks after stopping HRT...

 

[Gutterpump]

Your adrenals look super sluggish, I don't know if isocort will help, it didn't help me and my cortisol levels were better than yours. Good luck, don't be afraid to talk to the dr about hydrocortisone. Healing your adrenals may be all that's necessary to get your test back up.

Try posting this in and Male Anti-Aging Forum

 

[twenty3]

i think all u really need for the next 8 weeks is clomid (weeks 1-4) and sustain alpha (weeks 1-8)... i dont really see the point in taking tomax right now unless ur getting signs of gyno... and no i dont think the isocort will help... others please feel free to chime in...

My understanding is that, contrarily to what most bodybuilders think, Nolvadex and Clomid can be used for the same purposes. And that Tamoxifen is preferable, since it increases the responsiveness of LH to GnRH, while Clomid desinsitizes the testicles a bit.
Also, I know for a fact, that some doctors consider "Clomid out of the picture in regards to jumpstarting the HPTA, as it is no longer prefered".
This makes for an interesting reading on the subject: w ww.silownia.net/steroids/a/12154

Your adrenals look super sluggish, I don't know if isocort will help, it didn't help me and my cortisol levels were better than yours. Good luck, don't be afraid to talk to the dr about hydrocortisone. Healing your adrenals may be all that's necessary to get your test back up.

Try posting this in and Male Anti-Aging Forum

Thanks, I also think I could benefit from Hydrocortisone, but I can't set myself to start it right away, without trying first weaker things like Isocort, and trying to boost Test with a SERM.

 

[alwaysgaining]

wat u need is to eat 10 eggs aday and squat real heavy and deadlift 2.
do 6 weeks then c where yer test is if still low go the drug route
also check out the TRS
testosterone recovery stack by PP

 

[JaredGalloway]

My understanding is that, contrarily to what most bodybuilders think, Nolvadex and Clomid can be used for the same purposes. And that Tamoxifen is preferable, since it increases the responsiveness of LH to GnRH, while Clomid desinsitizes the testicles a bit.
Also, I know for a fact, that some doctors consider "Clomid out of the picture in regards to jumpstarting the HPTA, as it is no longer prefered".
This makes for an interesting reading on the subject: w ww.silownia.net/steroids/a/12154



Thanks, I also think I could benefit from Hydrocortisone, but I can't set myself to start it right away, without trying first weaker things like Isocort, and trying to boost Test with a SERM.

yes nolva can jumpstart the HPTA but clomid has always worked much better for me... if u want ur libido back up then just do the stack i suggested... are u going back on HRT in 8 weeks...cause if u are i would PM the PP reps and ask if dermacrine can be taken for 8 weeks (which in ur case im pretty sure it can)...

 

[twenty3]

yes nolva can jumpstart the HPTA but clomid has always worked much better for me... if u want ur libido back up then just do the stack i suggested... are u going back on HRT in 8 weeks...cause if u are i would PM the PP reps and ask if dermacrine can be taken for 8 weeks (which in ur case im pretty sure it can)...

I didn't do HRT. And I'm not intending to do. What I did was 2 low dosage shots of Testosterone to try to give my system a rest for a bit.
This is not replacement, since it didn't supress my endogenous Testosterone production.
On the first week of these 2 shots, I felt much better. So therefore, I believe I need to boost my endogenous Testosterone production.
How could dermacrine help me? I see that it's just a bomb of prohormones, and it's written that it might supress endogenous T production.

 

[EasyEJL]

I didn't do HRT. And I'm not intending to do. What I did was 2 low dosage shots of Testosterone to try to give my system a rest for a bit.
This is not replacement, since it didn't supress my endogenous Testosterone production.

you put in endogenous test, its hormone replacement. It also did to some extent suppress your natural production during its use whether your blood tests came back similar or not. Depending on how long from the 2nd injection you took the blood test most likely, either your body had time to bounce back to full production, or there was still some of the test-e in bloodstream. the roughly 35mg a week you put in should have brought levels pretty close to 400 for total test, so above your baseline and suppressive.
heres a chart of someone who spent waaaaaaay tons of time on it (and you should ask him questions too, jansz)

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html#post870845


I think you are better off with clomid than nolva as well. Can you point to any actual studies showing nolva better than clomid? What you have is 1 persons opinion (that site) who only cites 2 nolva only studies. I don't know of any doctors who find nolva preferential to clomid for the sort of short duration restart you are talking about. All of the top doctors in HRT related fields recommend it first.

 

[twenty3]

you put in endogenous test, its hormone replacement. It also did to some extent suppress your natural production during its use whether your blood tests came back similar or not. Depending on how long from the 2nd injection you took the blood test most likely, either your body had time to bounce back to full production, or there was still some of the test-e in bloodstream. the roughly 35mg a week you put in should have brought levels pretty close to 400 for total test, so above your baseline and suppressive.
heres a chart of someone who spent waaaaaaay tons of time on it (and you should ask him questions too, jansz)

I dont understand what you mean with this. You say that my levels should have gone up from 363 to 400, during the shots of T? I would expect them to go much higher.

 

[EasyEJL]

I dont understand what you mean with this. You say that my levels should have gone up from 363 to 400, during the shots of T? I would expect them to go much higher.

you dosed 125mg for the month right? about 35 (ok really 31.25) per week? if you broke it out as 4 shots, I doubt your peak would have been all that much more than 400. if it was 2 62.5mg shots, you may have seen a peak of a bit higher, but then if it went higher than your natural production you would also have seen it reach a point where it went lower too, as it would have suppressed you somewhat. And granted suppression is a sliding scale, so how much it would have suppressed you is questionable, but in no way do i see it would have give your body a "rest" either, only make reductions in testosterone product worse (even if it made you feel better).

http://www.duj.com/Article/Hellstrom2/Hellstrom2.html

The average male produces 4-7 mg of testosterone per day in a circadian pattern, with maximal plasma levels attained in early morning and minimal levels in the evening

4x30 = 120, 7x30=210 for the month. Honestly usually i've seen the range a more like 4-12mg/day but you can see that the amount you were adding (unless you did 2 injects of 62.5) was enough to maybe be a little more than your natural levels, but not much, but was likely enough to add suppression.

On the average from what i've seen, endocrinologists who don't specialize in age related sex hormone treatment of men have horrible ideas, and roughly no idea what the hell they are doing. There was one person who posted here whose endo prescribed 300mg of testosterone cyp a month. a reasonable dose, probably puts you a little below middle of normal range. Its handy for someone prone to estrogen, dht issues to be in that area. Well, his psychopath endo gives him 1 shot a month of 300mg. He was on it for 3 months, and didn't understand why he felt like god the first 3 days after an injection, felt like he was 17 the rest of that week and part of the next, felt like he was in his 20s + 30s the next few days, and then wanted to curl up and die the last 2 weeks of the month. He went and saw another doctor after posting here

 

[twenty3]

you dosed 125mg for the month right? about 35 (ok really 31.25) per week? if you broke it out as 4 shots, I doubt your peak would have been all that much more than 400.

I must have expressed myself wrongly.
The 2 shots I took were each of 125mg. I didn't take 31.25 or 62.5 shots.
Thats why I felt better in the 1st week after taking these shots, but not subsequently.

 

[EasyEJL]

I must have expressed myself wrongly.
The 2 shots I took were each of 125mg. I didn't take 31.25 or 62.5 shots.
Thats why I felt better in the 1st week after taking these shots, but not subsequently.

thats closer to a normal trt dose then, and would have been somewhat suppressive, and sucked 2 weeks out of 4. im still not sure why your endo would think it would "give your body a rest". so you likely saw peak levels over middle of range, but also likely had lows lower than normal

 

[JaredGalloway]

which brings us all right back to what i recommended...

 

[EasyEJL]

yep

 

[JaredGalloway]

good job easy taking the time and explaining this to him...

 

[twenty3]

EasyEJL sorry I failed to understand how you think that if I had taken 35mg of Testosterone per week, my serum Testosterone would go from 363ng/dL to 400ng/dL. Are you adding 363 with 35?

which brings us all right back to what i recommended...

Man, what you recommended was Clomid for 4 weeks, and Dermacrine for 8 weeks. When I asked why you would think Dermacrine would be a good idea, since it's just a prohormone bomb and supresses endogenous T production, you didn't answer.
Your recommendation has the same credit as the other guy's recommendation who told me to eat 10 eggs in the mornings.
I'm dealing with a serious health problem, and I'm trying to find the best way I can to deal with it.
I'm not gonna follow the regimen you said just because you said so, and didn't even care to explain why.
Of course you can say that you don't care if I follow your recommendations or not, but in that case why did you even took the time to post here? If you're not interested in helping me?

 

[Jda777]

Read up on HCG.

 

[JaredGalloway]

EasyEJL sorry I failed to understand how you think that if I had taken 35mg of Testosterone per week, my serum Testosterone would go from 363ng/dL to 400ng/dL. Are you adding 363 with 35?



Man, what you recommended was Clomid for 4 weeks, and Dermacrine for 8 weeks. When I asked why you would think Dermacrine would be a good idea, since it's just a prohormone bomb and supresses endogenous T production, you didn't answer. I didnt answer because i have already stated to contact the PP reps to advise whether one can take dermacrine for 8 weeks after stopping 2 weeks of HRT...
Your recommendation has the same credit as the other guy's recommendation who told me to eat 10 eggs in the mornings.
I'm dealing with a serious health problem, and I'm trying to find the best way I can to deal with it.
I'm not gonna follow the regimen you said just because you said so, and didn't even care to explain why.
Of course you can say that you don't care if I follow your recommendations or not, but in that case why did you even took the time to post here? If you're not interested in helping me?

Ive already recommended two different stacks depending on whether the PP reps ok the 8 week use of dermacrine. clomid is a MUCH better choice for your needs... please read my posts thoroughly...

If u do not want to take the time and contact the PP reps then go with my first stack
clomid weeks 1-4
sustain alpha weeks 1-8

 

[JaredGalloway]

Read up on HCG.

that would also be a good option... for some reason though it seems hard to get nowadays... but it may just be me...

 

[Jda777]

that would also be a good option... for some reason though it seems hard to get nowadays... but it may just be me...

I thought you could buy anything on these online pharmacies. :laugh:

I took it post cycle when my mojo got totally shut down. Helped bring me back.

Here is one guy's take......
bodybuilding.com/fun/cathcg.htm

 

[EasyEJL]

EasyEJL sorry I failed to understand how you think that if I had taken 35mg of Testosterone per week, my serum Testosterone would go from 363ng/dL to 400ng/dL. Are you adding 363 with 35?

I'm using that chart I posted the link to. Its done by someone who has a quite liberal insurance policy, so he has literally had blood drawn hundreds of times, and has built the chart using his own experiences as well as data from medical studies. the 35 and 363 are unrelated. your level may have gone a bit higher than 400 at first, but again - as soon as an exogenous source takes your total testosterone level above your natural level, your body will begin being suppressed and product less testosterone.