Interesting article on Creatine
- 03-04-2009, 04:42 PM
Interesting article on Creatine
Here is an interesting article:
The Creatine Grave Yard
By Will Brink © 2009
Looks like another “high tech” form of creatine has got one foot planted firmly in the creatine grave yard. What is the creatine graveyard? It’s where forms of creatine - other then monohydrate - go when either science has shown them inferior to monohydrate, and or it’s life cycle of hype has come to and end.
I refer specifically to (CEE). As with the many “high tech” forms of creatine before it, all manner of claims were/are made about how superior it is to (CM). It always starts the same. First the company will invent a long list of negatives about CM such as “poorly absorbed” or “causes bloat” or “is not stable” and then goes onto claim their form of creatine has solved all those invented negatives. The problem is, the data already shows CM does not suffer from virtually any of the negatives they invent, nor do they show their form “cures” those negatives. Sellers of CCE for example claimed CEE was better absorbed and utilized vs. CM, and that has been shown to be nonsense. There have been several in vitro (test tube) studies pointing to the fact CEE is inferior to CM, but a recent study done in humans puts a final nail in the coffin as far as I am concerned. This study is titled “The effects of supplementation combined with heavy resistance training on body composition, muscle performance, and serum and muscle creatine levels” The full study is public access and can be read here:
Warning, the abstract is confusing and not well written. If you read the full paper, it’s clearer. If you don’t have the time or interest to read it, the take home is: although all subjects in this study (CEE vs. CM vs. Placebo) experienced approximately the same effects; they all had improvements in bodycomp and got stronger. Why? Because they used untrained subjects in the study. Thus, a drawback of this study was due to using untrained people, they couldn’t differentiate between PL, CEE, and CM in terms of effects on bodycomp and strength within that time period as newbies always make fast progress in the beginning. No news there.
However, the study did achieve the essential point, which is it clearly showed the claims of CEE false: CEE had much higher creatinine levels and lower muscle creatine levels compared to CM in this study, thus, yet again, the claims by sellers of CEE that it’s superior to CM and that CM is “poorly absorbed” or “causes bloat,” or my favorite “CM is not stable,” etc are false. They also looked at changes in water compartments (CEE actually had a trend toward greater extra cellular water then CM BTW, so there goes that stupid “no bloat” claim for CEE…) and other issues claimed to make CEE superior, and it failed.
CEE is less stable then CM, increases creatinine to a much greater extent then CM, and is inferior for increasing muscle creatine levels to CM. This study is not perfect by any means, but when combined with what else exists, and the counter studies sellers of CEE offer (which is to say zero), well you don’t have to be a scientist to see the writing on the wall there…
CEE will be added to the creatine graveyard with a ton of others all claiming to be superior to CM which all started with big claims and now sit in the grave yard.
Two essential points about the grave yard before we get to that:
(1) Because they are in the grave yard does not mean they are worthless. Some forms, such as for example looked promising, but a head to head study with CM found it no better. Remember, another form does not have to show it’s the equal of CM, it has to show it’s superior to CM per its claims. Forms such as creatine pyruvate and many others on the list may be just as effective as CM, but not superior, so it comes down to cost. Others on the list have in fact been proven inferior to CM in studies, such as serum creatine, various liquid creatine versions, and now CEE. Serum creatine was all the rage a few years ago, and studies found not only was it inferior to CM in every respect, it contained virtually no creatine! Of course, there were still those on the various forums using ‘bro logic’ with “bro, I don’t care what the studies say, it works like da bomb for me!” posts, but I digress….Finally, other forms on the list simply lack any data at all to compare to CM. The companies selling these forms will routinely make claims of superiority with nadda for hard data to support them. Therefore, it’s impossible to really separate fact from fiction (i.e., marketing hype) to recommend them.
Me, I will use what has literally hundreds of studies to support its efficacy and safety over a form with zero data to support it’s claims of superiority over CM. Thus, they get put into the grave yard. Future studies may get them out of the graveyard, but I aint holding my breath…
(2) CM is not perfect. It’s not very soluble, and in about 30% of users, does not appear to work at all. At higher doses, generally above 3g-5g or so in a single dose, can cause stomach upset for some, among other small, but significant drawbacks for some users. Therefore, I am in favor of continued research into improved delivery technologies, improved forms of creatine, and so on. I’m all for it, but as they say, don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining. In God we trust, everyone else must show data. Hard data talks, BS walks.
I could randomly take two forms from the list below, say and creatine ethyl carbonate ester and make creatine ethyl carbonate*, but would it be superior to CM? Unknown as there would be no data. I could just invent a bunch of unproven claims like others do and sell the stuff… Do companies just invent a form of creatine for no other reason then it sound “high tech”? Hell, one company (BSN) is currently in court over one form they sell, called CEM3 or “ Malate” which according to the charges “does not exist and is impossible to manufacture”! As I said, CM is not perfect and I am all for continued research into improved (vs. just different!) forms of creatine and or improved delivery technologies, but companies should do their due diligence on these products and stop with all the hype and CM bashing to sell unproven products.
So, without further delay, here is my current list for the creatine graveyard:
The Creatine Graveyard List:
Creatine ethyl ester (CEE)
creatine ethyl ester malate
creatine ethyl carbonate ester
creatine-6,8-thioctic Acid-ketoisocaproic Acid Calcium (CREAKIC)
“conjugated creatine” ( )
magnesium creatine chelate
creatine alpha-amino butyrate
* = for the sake of an example. I have no idea if such a form is chemically possible, nor do I care.
- 04-24-2009, 02:15 AM
haha thanks for posting this i was just reading this the other day. I love being a college student and having access to hundreds of thousands of research articles.
- 04-24-2009, 02:32 AM
on a sidenote and not to high jack the thread baylor university did a study and found that novadex xt works very well. I didn't expect the results they found
04-24-2009, 02:58 AM
Cheers for the article mate, it's confirmed my original thoughts about creatine monohydrate. The original and still the best.
04-24-2009, 03:12 AM
04-24-2009, 03:15 AM
Great post, i love mono and some dextrose straight after a workout, but never with glutamine as creatine and glutamine compete for the same receptor.
Best time to take creatine though is in the morning, and if you can on an empty stomach, watch the difference, less bloating, more gains, take care guys.
Gause institute member
Need2slin designer.Product designer/ N2BM admin.
07-26-2009, 12:15 PM
07-26-2009, 01:25 PM
What causes the stomach discomfort(I do feel it sometimes), the creatine moleculs or the monohydrate molecule?
07-27-2009, 03:17 AM
07-28-2009, 02:08 AM
07-28-2009, 04:45 PM
07-28-2009, 04:46 PM
07-28-2009, 04:54 PM
08-02-2009, 02:29 PM
Ive tried four different creatine products even just straight mono. None gave me any size,strength,endurance. Maybe it just doesnt work for me or what. It sucks.
08-02-2009, 03:46 PM
Iv only tried Creapure yet but i bought a **** load of it and it just hasnt worked at all no bloat no strength increase nothing. Tried taking about 10g of it in one serving and got the ****s so probs just give it away
08-02-2009, 04:58 PM
By shaun lebron.
There's a lot of conflicting research that shows creatine and glutamine may compete directly with one another for cell transport and absorption.
That's because both creatine and glutamine use the same transport method (sodium) to be absorbed by the body, so there's a chance that one will get absorbed more than the other.
Gause institute member
Need2slin designer.Product designer/ N2BM admin.
08-02-2009, 07:52 PM
08-24-2009, 07:32 PM
09-04-2009, 09:28 AM
09-07-2009, 08:05 PM
09-07-2009, 08:13 PM
10-16-2009, 12:53 PM
12-03-2009, 05:38 PM
12-03-2009, 07:38 PM
graveyard = not superior to CM, yet maybe equal or lesser. If 1 does not respond to CM, then maybe respond to graveyard list equals.
12-03-2009, 10:33 PM
CEE might not be as good as CM (according to the article), but when you don't respond to CM, CEE is great and all you got. I never got anything from CM, but when I started taking CEE my strength and weight really went up. I love the stuff, except for the "liquid death" taste. Its my favorite supp.
12-03-2009, 10:39 PM
Whats the word on creatine nitrate, found in C-Bol by Thermolife? I'm guessing its just another form of creatine used as a marketing mechanism rather than for its actual intended purpose. Any experience with this product or thoughts on creatine nitrate in general. Also Palo Alto has ATP tabs. If an ATP supplement could work, although it doesn't seem intuitive, wouldn't creatine be unnecessary as the goal of creatine supplementation is to increase phosphocreatine levels which makes ATP production more easily synthesized. Any thoughts?
12-04-2009, 09:58 AM
12-18-2009, 11:15 PM
02-12-2010, 02:17 AM
05-15-2010, 12:56 PM
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