Designer Steroids: Speeding Evolution

[neoborn]

Very interesting article on steroids etc.

DESIGNER STEROIDS: SPEEDING EVOLUTION (AND FILLING STADIUM SEATS)

JT : The isolation of the male hormone testosterone dates to 1935 followed by the development of synthetic variants in the late 1930s. That said, it exploded synthetically with the work of Russell Marker who had studied the endocrine system and was looking for ways to develop a birth control agent. Marker knew about estrogen and those compounds related to it. He knew what you needed to make birth control agents, but where would you isolate those from? For some reason, he went to Mexico where a plant, the Mexican yam, yielded a compound (diosgenin) that was closely related to estrogen. With six easy chemical changes that any Masters-level chemist could perform, you get progesterone which is a steroid. Several steps away from that is pure estrogen. The compound was cheap to make and the Mexican yam was plentiful thoughout Mexico — whereas to make a small amount of synthetic testosterone, you had to kill so many bulls that it was inhumane. There are also regulations governing the killing of bulls. Russell Marker's work with the Mexican yam for a birth control agent marked the beginning of the explosion of synthetic steroid production. Why? Because while Marker was only concerned with developing a birth control agent, endocrinologists and other scientists realized that Marker had found an efficient and cost effective route to progesterone, the parent compound of testosterone and to all anabolic steroids. The same is true in your body: from cholesterol you have to run it to progesterone before you make anything else. Progesterone is a natural branching point for other steroids and that is why Marker's work was so huge for endocrinologists and chemists. Today many companies that make pure anabolic steroids still use the Mexican yam. Now that we know the recipe, it doesn't take a Ph.D. chemist to do it. It's a simple conversion from the diosgenin of the Mexican yam to whatever steroid you want to make. The 4-ring carbon chain, an otherwise complex structure to make chemically, is already in place for you in nature. You just have to mess around with things to change that. And this is where synthetic chemistry comes in.

 

[Zero V]

Interesting....so everyone is shooting up with Mexican Yam juice.... except evolution is an unproven theory which I see as a false way to explain unexplainable history.

Very good info in this though.

 

[neoborn]

I don't really buy into the whole "evolution explains everything" and all that "millions of years' and "big bang theory" stuff but evolution surely does exist as we learn and our genetics are reprogrammed for future generations / offspring

This is also posted over at bb.com in the supplement misc section where they are discussing this also.

 

[Zero V]

No matter the alterations you make to a humans genepool, it will be a human. Just as a dog technically can "evolve" horizontally. It can change breeds over the generations and specific breeding can create desired dog breeds. But none the less, it is, a dog. Always will be no matter what gene you alter or how much radiation some crazy scientist may want to pump into it. Humans will always be the same. An increase in muscle size wont change us that much, just make more people on the same level as professional builders. And besides, all mutations to our genes turn into degeneration down the line, and that is why we have cancer and most of our diseases. If DNA functions in any way but natural, it will be removed from the circle by nature....

 

[ecu19]

except evolution is an unproven theory which I see as a false way to explain unexplainable history.

oh brother, i'm not even TOUCHING this thread

 

[Zero V]

oh brother, i'm not even TOUCHING this thread

good:nutkick:

 

[Red Dog]

oh brother, i'm not even TOUCHING this thread

hey, at least he's not suggesting a religious explanation to unexplainable history.

 

[Zero V]

hey, at least he's not suggesting a religious explanation to unexplainable history.

'I did resist that. I am offering the common sense side I believe.

But truthfully if you want to believe your great great grandpa is a apes great great grandkid go ahead. I prefer to view myself as something more lol.

 

[GreenSquats]

My friend's dad is a professor and he can prove that evolution exists. As a matter of fact, he's actually made things evolve before. You know, like single celled organisms.

Sure, evolution takes a long time. Millions and millions of years. Why? Because evolution is all about accidents. Think about it. Not all humans are born the same. i.e. Jay Cutler and some skinny guy. Some are born even more different than that, i.e. someone with no legs, or an extra toe. Accidents. Anyway, in the wild, it's all about survival of the fittest. The alterations that happened by accident can make an animal or human stronger or weaker. Well, in the wild only the strongest survive. So, through millions and millions of years of accidents, yes, I am telling you that things can evolve.

 

[Zero V]

My friend's dad is a professor and he can prove that evolution exists. As a matter of fact, he's actually made things evolve before. You know, like single celled organisms.

Sure, evolution takes a long time. Millions and millions of years. Why? Because evolution is all about accidents. Think about it. Not all humans are born the same. i.e. Jay Cutler and some skinny guy. Some are born even more different than that, i.e. someone with no legs, or an extra toe. Accidents. Anyway, in the wild, it's all about survival of the fittest. The alterations that happened by accident can make an animal or human stronger or weaker. Well, in the wild only the strongest survive. So, through millions and millions of years of accidents, yes, I am telling you that things can evolve.

humans today are much, MUCH weaker than they used to be....it goes opposite of survival of the fittest....

 

[BigCasino]

humans today are much, MUCH weaker than they used to be....it goes opposite of survival of the fittest....

So I was doing some recreational researching on Neanderthals the other day, was curious about their theorized levels of strength, and I came across a Christian website that said that same thing you are saying here. It claimed people used to live for 900 years, 600 years, etc before The Flood, and that the Neanderthal was not an ape, but rather what humans probably looked like before the Flood, more robust and hardy, before they degenerated.

I hadn't heard any of that before, so it was interesting to read, but the fact of the matter is all of the Neanderthal bones / fossils we have, when we use our science and knowledge to date them, show that these people often didn't live beyond the age of 30.

 

[Zero V]

So I was doing some recreational researching on Neanderthals the other day, was curious about their theorized levels of strength, and I came across a Christian website that said that same thing you are saying here. It claimed people used to live for 900 years, 600 years, etc before The Flood, and that the Neanderthal was not an ape, but rather what humans probably looked like before the Flood, more robust and hardy, before they degenerated.

I hadn't heard any of that before, so it was interesting to read, but the fact of the matter is all of the Neanderthal bones / fossils we have, when we use our science and knowledge to date them, show that these people often didn't live beyond the age of 30.

Well for starters if evolution was real, where is the "missing link" between apes and humans and a rhino and a dog or whatever some scientist will say it came from. They do not exist.

Of all the people who lived over the years, there should be millions of these bones of the "missing link".....never will find it, isnt there to find. Splitting a single celled organism is mutation, not evolution.....Cancer grows rapidly and changed how cells are, so if you have cancer your evolving?

Not to mention how did organisms come to be period? Oh yeah, some ash mixed with a volcanoes fart and it flew into a cloud of methane gas.......

And our dating methods cant be proven to be accurate, because we have no idea how carbon reacts over time, how it escapes after degeneration of bones. So 100 year old bones can test to be 2500 years old if nature works just right.

Check this.

-a freshly killed seal dated by C-14 showed that it had died 1 300 years ago (American Journal, Volume 6)

-living mollusc shells were dated at up to 2300 years old (Science, Volume 14)

-living snail shells showed that they had died 27 000 years ago (Science, Volume 224)

These are just a few errors. They are not meant to end the debate. But once one has considered everything else, it certainly makes it harder to believe that the C-14 dating method is a proven, trustworthy scientific method.

Scientists cant really prove anything other than if you push a ball of lesser mass it will move away from ya.

check some more

-coal from Russia from the Pennsylvanian era supposedly 300 million years old, was dated only 1680 years (Radiocarbon, Volume 8)

-natural gas from Mississippi and Alabama should have been 50 to 135 million years old yet C-14 dated it 30 000 and 34 000 years old respectively (also Volume 8)

-bones from a saber-tooth tiger, found in the LaBrea tar pits (near Los Angeles) were supposedly between 100 000 and 1 000 000 years old, were given a date of 28 000 years (Radiocarbon, Volume 10)


science is proving that....the earth isn't all that old.......evolution is actually almost ready to be thrown out by the scientific society, give it about 10 years....for their minds to "evolve" lol

You do know the populace used to believe the earth was flat right? Same deal with evolution, just give it time.

Carbon dating and all other "proofs" that support the idea of evolution through supporting the earths age has to be constantly"calibrated" which means constantly altered so as to produce the wanted results. Like an unstable person, its not going to tell you the truth, and will only confuse you.


Jeez keeping religion out of this is hard, the peeps from that old thread would be proud of me

 

[BigCasino]

Well for starters if evolution was real, where is the "missing link" between apes and humans and a rhino and a dog or whatever some scientist will say it came from. They do not exist.

You mean where are they TODAY? Or do you mean you do not believe in the biological history of ancesteral species like Australopithecus? You are asking if they once existed, then why are they not still around? Basically, evolution says that apes and humans had a common ancestor, and at one point apes stopped evolving and another derivative branched off this branch kept progressing until it became us. What happened to those that were made along this path? They either evolved into us or they were evolutionary dead ends and went extinct.

The rhino and the dog, well that is a less concise path / explanation, but let's say they both had a mammal ancestor they come from. They both have four legs, two eyes, a nose, tails, etc......... wouldn't it make sense that they both inherited these attributes from something?

Of all the people who lived over the years, there should be millions of these bones of the "missing link".....never will find it, isnt there to find. Splitting a single celled organism is mutation, not evolution.....Cancer grows rapidly and changed how cells are, so if you have cancer your evolving?

Not to mention how did organisms come to be period? Oh yeah, some ash mixed with a volcanoes fart and it flew into a cloud of methane gas.......

Yeah, the origins of life has always been less convincing to me. It seems so horribly unplanned and accidental, and as humans we tend to want to have a sense of self importance, so the idea that we are an accident is frightening to us. I don't believe in a Garden of Eden, but at the same time I share your skepticism for our methane gas origins.

How do you explain all the fossils we have found though? The fossils of those ancestral species that get progressively similar to what we look like today. Seems like too much evidence to suggest we just all coincidentally looked similar but were not related?

I respect your faith in your views and thank you for sharing them with me. I'm really just interested in talking about it, and I am not too familiar with the Christian perspective of modern science, and I enjoy learning new things.

 

[neoborn]

humans today are much, MUCH weaker than they used to be....it goes opposite of survival of the fittest....

Ok so I'm just gonna throw something out there...this is what I can so far come up with as far as some kind of explanation...

It seriously looks like we were designed essentially perfect. Everything on this planet that I have so far seen, seems, again essentially made by intelligent design. I mean if you really think about it at look at everything....

1. The trees just so happen to take out the impurities in the air and give us what we need, yes clean fresh oxygen

2. The trees grow by taking nutrients from the earth and also light from the sun.

If you wanted to look at humans...I mean really look at all the layers of systems in the human body. Even just get intimate with one of them to see how systematically laid out it all is.

If you really think about it, the human body is designed as we would design something ....albeit light years down the road on the knowledge path.

How can anyone look at literally anything natural on this planet and think it was all just some random occurance ...lol

I personally think someone or something designed us and dropped us off. It's like we would / will do with the space station and space travel in the years to come.

I.e. basically get a family or a group of great 'specimens' and pack them off in a space ship to a potentially viable planet.

 

[Rick28]

Zero V and neoborn I agree with what u guys wrote. I'm a Christian by the way!

 

[Rick28]

Mo one ever thinks about human written history only goes back about 6,000 years.

 

[GreenSquats]

humans today are much, MUCH weaker than they used to be....it goes opposite of survival of the fittest....

OK, first of all, that's not true. Homo-Sapiens have probably stayed the same. But yes, I'll give you that the Neanderthals were (given that they were much more robust) stronger. But even so, survival of the fittest just means who can out-live the other, not necessarily who's stronger. Instead, we gradually got smarter, and so were able to create better weapons. Because of this, we as Homo-Sapiens got all of the food, leaving our ancestors to die out.

Now I say once again, this is a million upon a million of years long of a process. And as for us finding evidence, well we actually have.

Now don't take this the wrong way, I am just as much of a Christian as the next guy, I just don't see why we have to separate the two.

I realize that we are all entitled to our beliefs, so I will now drop this debate. Anyway, that's not why we're here, we're here to help each other get huuuuuge. So let's pick up on that again.

 

[Rick28]

Now don't take this the wrong way, I am just as much of a Christian as the next guy, I just don't see why we have to separate the two.

The two must remain separate, "christians" who merge the 2 together are called Gap Theorists. Totally contrary to sound doctrine! Evolution crept into christianity around the 1800's when Darwinism was being popularized. Before that christians believed the earth was created in 6 literal days. Just because some professor spews his mouth off doesn't mean what he states is a fact.


20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen

1 Tim. 6

 

[GreenSquats]

Perhaps... but even if what you say is true, and I'm wrong, that's what makes me human. If I'm right, your right, or some ho-bo is right, nobody's perfect or always right, and I doubt any of us know for sure what's 100% correct. Only Christ knew that. So I just try to go to church, pray, believe in one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and just be the best person I can be. I doubt I'm going to hell for trying to justify evolution. Sorry mods, please don't ban me for talking religion, I'll stop for sure this time, I just had to get that out there. Time to go talk bodybuilding

 

[neoborn]

I am a Christian too and even though I led us off on a different path, I would really appreciate it if everyone could talk without quoting scripture, because as soon as you do that it takes things in a completely different direction.

 

[BigCasino]

I just want to reiterate I really appreciate you all sharing your views. I was born and raised Catholic, went through communion, confirmation, and for right now let's just say I am still discovering what I believe, but like Neo said, I think it is great to be able to discuss this in a friendly manner. Leaving out the scriptures is probably a good idea though, so this does not turn into a flame war.

For those of you have a more creationist / Intelligent Design view of our origins, what do you think the Neanderthals were? What was their purpose? Why were they created, and then eventually extinct? I think most of us can agree on the literal version of why they perished, but I am more so wondering what you think their purpose in existing was in the first place. Why design them to begin with, why not just us?

 

[Zero V]

I don't believe whether or not you believe in evolution has any effect on your entrance into heaven if your a christian. Though when people believe it they lose a lot of faith, especially in the idea of miracles.

Now there are limitations that develop on a christian who believes though. He wont go far into the ministry 'usually' because if you have to believe the bible for what it is. Such as creation did not take millions of years. Every one should take a trip the the "Creation Museum" I think its in Northern KY or southern Oh I forget. They provide just as much scientific evidence proving evolution wrong as evolutionists provide proving it real.

Here is the thing though. Will a man who believes in evolution, and the normal secular beliefs, would he take his dying child to a minister so she can be healed because the docs say they cant help? Not usually....when you rely on science, you rely on most of it and it becomes a crutch. He wont believe, and without trust in the word and belief that it is real and true 100%......then he doesn't believe in healing either. Not limiting God, he can still do his work. But sometimes a lack of faith or proper living prevent his hand from taking over. He can do anything, but he works only as much as you believe he can.

A preacher drank 'drain o' before on accident when he went in his house to get a drink his wife set out for him. He believed nothing that enters the body shall harm it, said a prayer, went back outside to work....normally people will rush, call 911, cry, because science says they are going to die.

Its all about faith. Faith has one direction. Evolution IS a faith, it is a belief therefore it coincides with religion.

Things must come to pass as predicted, which would normally be scary, but its not....just going to be real rough for Christians soon....Many of us are realizing that in our lifetimes we may be persecuted for our beliefs now....the worlds not so safe and our country is failing as a whole.

How many of you who say you are christian, if told you have to either choose science and leave religion our of your life or you would be killed because religion was no longer allowed would take the bullet......

You can believe religion and be saved, but in that situation salvation IS on the line.


Too much, or am I still ok. Didnt bring in scripture, trying to avoid it. lol. So hard >.< Believe me I am trying to keep it in line here lol.

Its just you have to stand on one side of the line, saddling it is the same as standing on the other side. Almost all Christians know what God says about being luke warm.

I actually like talking about these things, just let me know if I overdo it. A few of us remember how that last thread went lol. I think everyone here is awesome, and entitled to their own beliefs.

 

[Rick28]

I just want to reiterate I really appreciate you all sharing your views. I was born and raised Catholic, went through communion, confirmation, and for right now let's just say I am still discovering what I believe, but like Neo said, I think it is great to be able to discuss this in a friendly manner. Leaving out the scriptures is probably a good idea though, so this does not turn into a flame war.

For those of you have a more creationist / Intelligent Design view of our origins, what do you think the Neanderthals were? What was their purpose? Why were they created, and then eventually extinct? I think most of us can agree on the literal version of why they perished, but I am more so wondering what you think their purpose in existing was in the first place. Why design them to begin with, why not just us?

Was the Neanderthal man really some kind of ape man?

The first Neanderthal skull was discovered in Gibraltar in 1848. Eight years later the “original” Neanderthal man was discovered in a limestone quarry in the Neander Valley near Düsseldorf in Germany (“Neanderthal” literally means “Neander’s Valley”). The Neander Valley in turn was named after Joachim Neander, a 17th century German theologian who taught Latin in nearby Düsseldorf and preached sermons in the valley which later came to bear his name.

Three years after the Neander Valley discovery, Charles Darwin published his Origin of Species in which he proposed that all life descended from a common ancestor. This includes humans who were thought to have evolved from some sort of ape-like ancestor. The Neanderthal man was subsequently reinterpreted by the scientists of the 19th century who came to see him as a sort of ape-man, an evolutionary link between man and ape. This view persisted into the 20th century.

The “Old Man of La Chapelle-aux-Saints,” originally reconstructed by the famous 19th century French paleontologist Pierre Marcellin Boule, was the first nearly complete Neanderthal man skeleton discovered in the modern era. The “Old Man” had a severely curved spine. This combined with his large browridge and his low-vaulted cranium gave him a hunched over ape-man-like appearance. It was later determined that the Old Man suffered from a deforming bone disease.

In the mid 1950’s American anatomists William Straus and A. J. Cave reexamined the Old Man of La Chapelle-aux-Saints. It was their conclusion that “if he could be reincarnated and placed in a New York subway provided he were bathed, shaved, and dressed in modern clothing it is doubtful whether he would attract any more attention that some of its other denizens” (Quarterly Review of Biology, vol. 32, pp. 348–63, December).

The anatomical peculiarities of the Neanderthal men are known to exist within the normal boundaries of human variation potential. In other words, the Neanderthals were just regular humans who looked a little different than you and I do today (similar to how Australian aborigines look significantly different than Native American Indians and yet they are all human).

The Neanderthals were known to bury their dead (whose bodies they covered in flowers), they used tools, worked with animal hides, took care of each other and generally acted like humans act. There is no indication that they were the brutish beasts they are seen as by many today. Their brain cavity was actually much larger than the average brain today.

It appears that many of the Neanderthals suffered from a Vitamin D deficiency. This caused their bones to grow soft and deformed. This has contributed the popular hunched-over ape-man misconception. The Vitamin D deficiency may simply be indicative of the era in which they lived. Vitamin D comes from fish oils and dairy products and is produced in the body when the skin is exposed to the sun. The Neanderthals obviously had a very poor diet. In addition to this, they appear to have spent much of their time taking shelter in caves. It is believed by many scholars that the Neanderthals lived during an Ice Age. This would explain their poor diets and lack of exposure to the sun. So, while the ape-man perspective has been shown to be false, Neanderthal man was certainly a caveman in the true sense of the word.

 

[Rick28]

Creation is one of my fav subjects!

 

[Rick28]

I don't believe whether or not you believe in evolution has any effect on your entrance ..............................................

Nice answer :thumbsup:

 

[badfish51581]

Ok so I'm just gonna throw something out there...this is what I can so far come up with as far as some kind of explanation...

It seriously looks like we were designed essentially perfect. Everything on this planet that I have so far seen, seems, again essentially made by intelligent design. I mean if you really think about it at look at everything....

1. The trees just so happen to take out the impurities in the air and give us what we need, yes clean fresh oxygen

2. The trees grow by taking nutrients from the earth and also light from the sun.

If you wanted to look at humans...I mean really look at all the layers of systems in the human body. Even just get intimate with one of them to see how systematically laid out it all is.

If you really think about it, the human body is designed as we would design something ....albeit light years down the road on the knowledge path.

How can anyone look at literally anything natural on this planet and think it was all just some random occurance ...lol

I personally think someone or something designed us and dropped us off. It's like we would / will do with the space station and space travel in the years to come.

I.e. basically get a family or a group of great 'specimens' and pack them off in a space ship to a potentially viable planet.

I suggest you read "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins. It may or may not change your opinions depending on how convinced you are, but it at least will present a very well educated and informed opinion of the opposite explanation.

 

[TruffleShuffle]

What i dont understand, generally about religion, is how people choose to ignore the bits they dont like and still call themselves 'religious'.

If we are the result of intelligent design, and 'the good book' was left with us as a means to guide us then why arent people doing, for example, the following:

Stoning (to death), those who use the lords name in vain ( Leviticus 24:16)

Killing those who commit adultery, and even killing rape victims for not calling out loudly enough (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

I wonder how many religious men on here are married, and their wives weren't virgins on their wedding night? Got to be stoned again i'm afraid (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

Working on Sunday...stoning to death again (Numbers 15:32-56)

Now that's just a handful, but if you asked anyone religious today why these things arent' followed now, they'd say it was barbaric or stupid for modern society to be expected to follow such rules.

My point being, if created by intelligent design, why leave such an antiquated, morally wrong, 'rule book' which even we, 1000's of years away from our own ability for intelligent design, can recognise as wrong?

 

[badfish51581]

Check this.

-a freshly killed seal dated by C-14 showed that it had died 1 300 years ago (American Journal, Volume 6)

-living mollusc shells were dated at up to 2300 years old (Science, Volume 14)

-living snail shells showed that they had died 27 000 years ago (Science, Volume 224)

These are just a few errors. They are not meant to end the debate. But once one has considered everything else, it certainly makes it harder to believe that the C-14 dating method is a proven, trustworthy scientific method.

Scientists cant really prove anything other than if you push a ball of lesser mass it will move away from ya.

check some more

-coal from Russia from the Pennsylvanian era supposedly 300 million years old, was dated only 1680 years (Radiocarbon, Volume 8)

-natural gas from Mississippi and Alabama should have been 50 to 135 million years old yet C-14 dated it 30 000 and 34 000 years old respectively (also Volume 8)

-bones from a saber-tooth tiger, found in the LaBrea tar pits (near Los Angeles) were supposedly between 100 000 and 1 000 000 years old, were given a date of 28 000 years (Radiocarbon, Volume 10)


science is proving that....the earth isn't all that old.......evolution is actually almost ready to be thrown out by the scientific society, give it about 10 years....for their minds to "evolve" lol

You do know the populace used to believe the earth was flat right? Same deal with evolution, just give it time.

Carbon dating and all other "proofs" that support the idea of evolution through supporting the earths age has to be constantly"calibrated" which means constantly altered so as to produce the wanted results. Like an unstable person, its not going to tell you the truth, and will only confuse you.


Jeez keeping religion out of this is hard, the peeps from that old thread would be proud of me

Carbon-14 dating is short time scale technique of radiometric dating. That's why the use multiple methods of radiomatric dating methods, not just carbon-14 dating that has a known half life of 6,000 years.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[Jim Mills]

Anyone care to debate about your appendix?.... From what I hear, It's been getting smaller and smaller over several thousand years because we don't use it anymore... When my son had his out a couple years ago, the Doctor said " This is a perfect example of evolution, sooner or later we wont have it anymore.

 

[Zero V]

What i dont understand, generally about religion, is how people choose to ignore the bits they dont like and still call themselves 'religious'.

If we are the result of intelligent design, and 'the good book' was left with us as a means to guide us then why arent people doing, for example, the following:

Stoning (to death), those who use the lords name in vain ( Leviticus 24:16)

Killing those who commit adultery, and even killing rape victims for not calling out loudly enough (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

I wonder how many religious men on here are married, and their wives weren't virgins on their wedding night? Got to be stoned again I'm afraid (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

Working on Sunday...stoning to death again (Numbers 15:32-56)

Now that's just a handful, but if you asked anyone religious today why these things arent' followed now, they'd say it was barbaric or stupid for modern society to be expected to follow such rules.

My point being, if created by intelligent design, why leave such an antiquated, morally wrong, 'rule book' which even we, 1000's of years away from our own ability for intelligent design, can recognise as wrong?

Ok to clear things up, those are old testament. Don't quote the bible if you don't know what your doing, its like playing with a loaded gun, ur gonna shoot yourself.

The old testament was a way for people to deal with sin before Christ, once Christ came he broke the chains that were on us. He preached forgiveness. that meant not always killing the perpetrator.

Such as not marrying a virgin, the bible says to forgive. I mean the old testament is the meat, the new testament is the milk. Just like a baby you have to start on milk before you can handle meat. So you have to learn the new testament to apply the old testament.

And you should not value life so much. If some one gets hanged, the preacher gives em last rights, a chance to ask God for forgiveness, and then the execution pulls the lever and the man drops. think about it, if we still rolled old testament, crime wouldn't exist. Christians are probably the strongest people around, who else will say yes to a question if it will get their brains blown out?

Jesus came and died for peoples sins, so as that single death of the only perfect man to ever live was enough to cover the sins of everyone else so as that they need not die themselves. the bible has predicted the evil growth this world has seen, it has also predicted many current world events, and more to come.

actually your lack of knowledge is one of the few times Christians get easy arguments. Jesus Christ rebuked the priests of the temple for trying to persecute him for healing on the sabbath. When they were going to stone someone he stepped in and said, let he without sin throw the first stone. So before you quote the bible know what you say. The bible says not to kill the murderer, not to kill the thief, the cheater, but to forgive....so mr. barbaric, what quote is next?

What you said makes no sense. I tell you what, read the bible staring in the new testament from Matthew to Revelations, then read the old testament(just don't use KJV unless you have good proper english)

It aint my fault now lol, I am responding not stating!!! lol. nnnnnhg for once it was nice to have an easy one.

 

[TruffleShuffle]

you are Roman Catholic then Zero V?

 

[Zero V]

you are Roman Catholic then Zero V?

No, Christian-Pentecostal

 

[RobInKuwait]

Dam, I read that article and was ready for a good thread....didn't expect all this evolution/religion crap.

Anyway, in the article it said Masteron is a fat burner. That sounds like a load of crap to me. I've always heard it was a androgenic hormone, often used as a hardening agent. If its not a fatburner...that guy in the article loses ALL credibility in my eyes. The Masteron part is below:

Masteron is definitely not known as a powerful anabolic. Its claim to fame is that it doesn't convert to estrogen or lead to fat gain or water retention. In fact, it burns fat. Masteron is ephedra times 100. When you look at the molecule there is no carbon-carbon double bond as in testosterone.

For this reason, it is simply impossible for it to be coverted to estrogen. What makes this anabolic steroid so unique is that it lowers levels of estrogen by blocking those receptors that convert testosterone to estrogen. So, with the body's normal testosterone or another anabolic steroid, Masteron will block their access to the receptors and thus will lower estrogen significantly in the body. What this means is that it is a powerful fat burner. The herbal stimulant ephedra only burns fat by increasing the body's core temperature, whereas Masteron burns fat at a hormonal level. In fact, all those supplements that promise to burn fat are simply a soup of asprin, caffein and ephedra which accomplishes little more than to raise the body's core temperature — an internal response to any form of exertion such as jogging, eating, sex or walking stairs. Something to think about the next time you make a trip to the health food store. Sports requiring low body fat, speed and lean muscle tone benefit most from Masteron. Track and field athletes, cyclists, swimmers, basketball players, boxers, gymnasts, soccer players, fitness models and trainers are those most likely to use Masteron.

 

[dsade]

'I did resist that. I am offering the common sense side I believe.

But truthfully if you want to believe your great great grandpa is a apes great great grandkid go ahead. I prefer to view myself as something more lol.

Wow, you demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of evolution.

 

[Zero V]

Wow, you demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of evolution.

It was a comedic generalization. I used to fervently believe in evolution actually.I know that the theory spans many millennia. I know its a theory of processes that have had many dead ends, and continuations, and etc. I used to be a very intelligent scientific kind of fellow. I still use a lot of chemistry and biology. But I have found no proof for myself of evolution, where as I have found proof of God.

I spent my days as a kid reading about evolution, dinosaurs, insects, geography, archaeology, ancient cultures.

 

[Rick28]

Anyone care to debate about your appendix?.... From what I hear, It's been getting smaller and smaller over several thousand years because we don't use it anymore... When my son had his out a couple years ago, the Doctor said " This is a perfect example of evolution, sooner or later we wont have it anymore.

The appendix getting smaller isn't proof for evolution, besides the appendix is very imporant for immune fuction.

 

[Rick28]

What i dont understand, generally about religion, is how people choose to ignore the bits they dont like and still call themselves 'religious'.

If we are the result of intelligent design, and 'the good book' was left with us as a means to guide us then why arent people doing, for example, the following:

Stoning (to death), those who use the lords name in vain ( Leviticus 24:16)

Killing those who commit adultery, and even killing rape victims for not calling out loudly enough (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

I wonder how many religious men on here are married, and their wives weren't virgins on their wedding night? Got to be stoned again i'm afraid (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

Working on Sunday...stoning to death again (Numbers 15:32-56)

Now that's just a handful, but if you asked anyone religious today why these things arent' followed now, they'd say it was barbaric or stupid for modern society to be expected to follow such rules.

My point being, if created by intelligent design, why leave such an antiquated, morally wrong, 'rule book' which even we, 1000's of years away from our own ability for intelligent design, can recognise as wrong?

The reason why christians aren't following those rules today is because we aren't under OT law. Christians aren't choosing to ignore the rules, it's because they know that we're under a different dispensation.

Sunday isn't the Sabbath Day, Saturday is. Sabbath is for the Jew not the christian.

 

[Rick28]

Wow, you demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of evolution.

I thnk Zero V has a great point. According to evolution We evolved from apes. The apes were our earliest ancestors. So in reality, those apes are your great great great grandpa. Even before those apemen evolved, they were some fish like creature swimming in an ocean that had been rained on for millions of years and out of this "primordial soup" were those creatures. Those creatures grew to become frogs because legs were needed to live on land, hada hada hada. The truth is evolution is a fairy tale religion because of the faith that's required to believe in it.

 

[RobInKuwait]

Whats backwards about this whole argument, is that people act like just because someone can't adequately convince them of evolution, their religious beliefs are vindicated. Lack of human scientific knowledge and understanding does not justify faith.

A thousand years ago, people justified god by lightning...and earthquakes, and disease....now that we understand how all those phenomenons work, suddenly god exists because of evolution.

:trout:

 

[Zero V]

Whats backwards about this whole argument, is that people act like just because someone can't adequately convince them of evolution, their religious beliefs are vindicated. Lack of human scientific knowledge and understanding does not justify faith.

A thousand years ago, people justified god by lightning...and earthquakes, and disease....now that we understand how all those phenomenons work, suddenly god exists because of evolution.

:trout:

God created the world by which that phenomenon exists. :thumbsup:

We dont need a scientific study to prove God to us, when we see people healed, diseases disappear, and the impossible happen all through love.....its not hard. What worth is a 200 dollar text book of theories?

 

[dsade]

And for the diseases that AREN'T cured? The fevered prayers of the parents of kidnapped children that either never get closure, or get the closure of a mutilated corpse? Genetic and mutant birth defects? PRoof of the same god's incompetence, or just plain sadistic maliciousness?

 

[Botch]

'I did resist that. I am offering the common sense side I believe.

But truthfully if you want to believe your great great grandpa is a apes great great grandkid go ahead. I prefer to view myself as something more lol.

That is a very egocentric view, my friend.

 

[Zero V]

And for the diseases that AREN'T cured? The fevered prayers of the parents of kidnapped children that either never get closure, or get the closure of a mutilated corpse? Genetic and mutant birth defects? PRoof of the same god's incompetence, or just plain sadistic maliciousness?

All of which we brought upon ourselves. Mans pride cost us to survive on our own. We wanted it, we thought we could handle it, we can do anything. We wanted to handle things ourselves, so God allows us to.

guess not.

Things must run their course. God is allowing evil to run rampart just as stated in the bible. Why? because those of weaker faith will falter and walk away from him. Which means they didnt love him above the world. Think of it as war. There are going to be casualties.

As for those who dont get healed. First question, did they believe in it? Did they believe in God? Or did they believe in a man?

Take note you said about the people who don't get healed and whos prayers aren't answered. Some do without a doubt.

I cant say why one man lives and another will perish. But I do know that a single life is forfeit in this world.

You have to lose your life to live, for if you live you lose your life......

All of that evil will perish someday. But think of it as a method of weeding. Do we not inject poison into our bodies to fight cancer? Does it not hurt us and weaken us and sometimes kill us? The body of man is just as infected. But it is not the time to clean it yet, but to diagnose what will be left after that cleaning.

I have had my car forcibly stopped while I was driving, freaking me out, but then I understood when a dear lept in front of me and my friend. It was a crazy night...

Why did the apostles all die as martyrs save for one? They learned this life is not what matters in the least. But all people care about are having the greatest houses and cars and possessions ad a retirement fund.

Think about children in china, korea, etc who are beaten by the police and executed if they are found to be Christians, and their families executed for it. If God exists who do you think showed him more respect? The happy lil American who's worries are locking his car door, paying his bills, and consolidating a loan or two to help with the mortgage. Or someone who upon admitting they love God will be tortured and murdered..... The difference is

We don't blame God....we blame the enemy, and we gladly die for God.

Think of it this way. If you were satin, you would do whatever you had to to people to make them not trust God, to hate God, to question God. God allows this because he promised us free choice.

God proves his greatest plans yet......kinda goes along with your survival of the fittest ideals people have. Only those who really trust God, and love him make it. We will all die. Whats the difference if it is today or tomorrow? worldly emotions. Those who walk away, that's their right, those who will stay, thats their blessing. Job.......said even though you slay me I shall worship you.

Its basic training on the cosmic level.....

again I have to cut myself off here......This keeps up and holding back wont be possible.

 

[dsade]

please....do tell me what a 1 month old child did to "deserve it"?

 

[Red Dog]

... I have found proof of God.

what is it?

 

[dsade]

what is it?

why..a banana, of course.

 

[Zero V]

please....do tell me what a 1 month old child did to "deserve it"?

what do you mean. deserve what? we talking post death or a disease?

 

[Zero V]

what is it?

being healed myself, being thrown through the air by the holy spirit, knowing true peace. Seeing a man who had all 4 tendons ruptured in his knee have them become perfect within a moments notice at prayer, seen back injuries vanish at the alter and the man got to enjoy life again and play sports like he was 15 years younger.

Having seen and dealt with the demonic.....

 

[Zero V]

There is a reason I have that green tag line in my sig.....

 

[dsade]

what do you mean. deserve what? we talking post death or a disease?

Not sure what world you inhabit but in this world 1 month old babies are tortured, raped and murdered more often than you would guess.

Tell me what choice they made to bring it on themselves....or do you subscribe to the mutated atrocious morality that somehow what ancestors did is punished upon their descendents?