POST Workout Supplementation

[snagency]

POST Workout Supplementation

Looking for some discussion on this topic: what do you feel is helpful or a necessity for POST w/o supplementation? Aside from the obvious (food/whey/WMS), what supps do you use in this window of time, right after training?

Breaking this down further: do you differentiate your supp usage in this timeframe from bulking mode to cutting mode?

And is there anything that you consider equally effective for both PRE & POST w/o supplementation? (again, other than food/whey/WMS)

 

[Universal Rep]

I actually run a pretty strict pre, intra and post-workout regime. They're all pretty important to me.

 

[snagency]

I actually run a pretty strict pre, intra and post-workout regime. They're all pretty important to me.

Okay Universal.. that doesn't tell me what you use, lol.

Important to me as well, and I'm strict too, but I want to know what you consider your "staples".

 

[Universal Rep]

Okay Universal.. that doesn't tell me what you use, lol.

Important to me as well, and I'm strict too, but I want to know what you consider your "staples".

Hahaha, you got me. Universal supps of course, but I'm biased.

 

[RenegadeRows]

I use Golden Finish exclusively post workout, with cissus/beta alanine (incarnate.) Like UR, I'm biased as well. I've found it works really well. I follow it up with a meal about an hour later.

Cutting or bulking this remains the same. The followup meal will just be smaller if I'm cutting

 

[snagency]

Okay, cool. Narrowing this down further (and eliminating company bias, haha), not so much looking for the specific product you use as much as what matrix you like.

For example, for me, I prefer BCAA's, creatine, beta alanine, citrulline, and these are all able to be used both before & after training. Is there something you find indespensible specifically for post w/o window other than these?

 

[Universal Rep]

Okay, cool. Narrowing this down further (and eliminating company bias, haha), not so much looking for the specific product you use as much as what matrix you like.

For example, for me, I prefer BCAA's, creatine, beta alanine, citrulline, and these are all able to be used both before & after training. Is there something you find indespensible specifically for post w/o window other than these?

Understood.

Pre-workout: some stims (when needed), creatine, 4-hydroxyisolecuine, arginine/ornithine, often EAAs

Intra-workout: right now, just basic EAAs + CHO

Post-workout: EAAs + CHO followed by hydrolyzed protein, WMS, bulk leucine followed by whole food meal

 

[snagency]

Awesome UR, that's what I'm talking about!

 

[Universal Rep]

Awesome UR, that's what I'm talking about!

I personally know a lot of fellas (some of 'em my lifting partners) who use BCAAs. Honestly, I don't get it. Why not EAAs? It's like Universal sells both EAAs and BCAAs but I never reach for BCAAs. What gives?

 

[RenegadeRows]

Pre workout: stims (white flood), 5000mg creatine, 2000mg beta alanine, 600mg cissus

intra: eaa's (~7600mg eaa's)

post: 25g carbs (corn & rice source), 25g protein (whey, isolates), ~9g bcaa, 2000mg beta alanine, 600mg cissus

 

[RenegadeRows]

I personally know a lot of fellas (some of 'em my lifting partners) who use BCAAs. Honestly, I don't get it. Why not EAAs? It's like Universal sells both EAAs and BCAAs but I never reach for BCAAs. What gives?

Agreed!

 

[hardknock]

I use bcaa's before and after, and also eaa. I use bcaa's due to the fact that I MAY OR MAY NOT get a chance to really eat any solid food before 2-3 hours afterwards due to scheduling conflict and working, earning a second degree, plus running an independent business.

Before - I always consume a stim whether it be an actual STIM or something that is said to be STIM FREE with same effects, some yellow gold (of course with carbs), something that contains Safed, Mucuna, Rhodiola, and Doddder seed (since it's not to be company specific I won't name it) and of course the BCAA/EAA mixture.

Afterward, I try to consume more eaa/bcaa mix, the same said supp mix, and all about 30 - 40 mins after. Immediately after I will take in a carb mix/protein shake. Then if im lucky, i'll get my chicken/steak, beans, potatoes, and half gallon water, this will come about 1hour later (IF IM LUCKY, but usually about 3 hours later)

Im looking into some of the controlled labs products for during; i've heard they have some hella mixes.

 

[snagency]

Branched chain are muscle-specific, go directly to the muscle cells for absorption. They also are carbon and nitrogen precursors for the synthesis of alanine, glutamate, and glutamine.
EAA's are good as well (I like them pre & intra too) but work on different level. The other 6 aminos are not specific to muscle absorption.
Don't think you can go wrong either way, but the BCAA's are where the $ is at imo..

 

[hardknock]

Then again, my pre changes if im wokring out at 7AM vs 7PM

If it's morning, i'll just grab the igf2, yellow gold, about 6 eggs, 6 slices turkey bacon, OJ, and 2 packs of oatmeal and one wheat bagel with a dash of cream cheese.

 

[snagency]

Pre workout: stims (white flood), 5000mg creatine, 2000mg beta alanine, 600mg cissus

intra: eaa's (~7600mg eaa's)

post: 25g carbs (corn & rice source), 25g protein (whey, isolates), ~9g bcaa, 2000mg beta alanine, 600mg cissus

Nice, good breakdown man.

 

[Universal Rep]

Branched chain are muscle-specific, go directly to the muscle cells for absorption. They also are carbon and nitrogen precursors for the synthesis of alanine, glutamate, and glutamine.
EAA's are good as well (I like them pre & intra too) but work on different level. The other 6 aminos are not specific to muscle absorption.
Don't think you can go wrong either way, but the BCAA's are where the $ is at imo..

Too many of the BCAA studies are done on endurance athletes. See how many of 'em look at weightlifters. Compare that to the body of research on EAAs. Plenty of studies looking at the benefit of EAAs and weightlifters specifically.

 

[hardknock]

Branched chain are muscle-specific, go directly to the muscle cells for absorption. They also are carbon and nitrogen precursors for the synthesis of alanine, glutamate, and glutamine.
EAA's are good as well (I like them pre & intra too) but work on different level. The other 6 aminos are not specific to muscle absorption.
Don't think you can go wrong either way, but the BCAA's are where the $ is at imo..

I agree, though im bigger on taking in Eaa's if I had to choose due to our body's inability to synthesize them.

 

[snagency]

Too many of the BCAA studies are done on endurance athletes. See how many of 'em look at weightlifters. Compare that to the body of research on EAAs. Plenty of studies looking at the benefit of EAAs and weightlifters specifically.

Cite specific example for research? I've never seen anything that touts EAA over BCAA for muscle growth. Granted, all EAA's are depleted when we train & need replenished, but everything I've ever seen dictates leucine, valine & isoleucine as the keys to muscle growth.
Not argueing (hell, I'm a huge fan of methionine myself), but point me in a direction that disputes this..

 

[Universal Rep]

Cite specific example for research? I've never seen anything that touts EAA over BCAA for muscle growth. Granted, all EAA's are depleted when we train & need replenished, but everything I've ever seen dictates leucine, valine & isoleucine as the keys to muscle growth.
Not argueing (hell, I'm a huge fan of methionine myself), but point me in a direction that disputes this..

I'm not aware of head to head comparos of EAAs to BCAAs in studies looking at BBers. But I can easily come up with a dozen or so EAA studies as they pertain specifically to weightlifters. Like I said, there's a huge body of research on BCAAs--but these looked at endurance athletes. So there is no direct "dispute" between these two... Yet.

 

[SoCo4Fun]

This is an awesome thread.

I do white flood and purple wraath pre and intraworkout...then 30 - 45 minutes post workout I eat a whole food meal...I'm on the anabolic diet so no carbs.

 

[snagency]

This is an awesome thread.

I do white flood and purple wraath pre and intraworkout...then 30 - 45 minutes post workout I eat a whole food meal...I'm on the anabolic diet so no carbs.

There you go getting product specific on me man, lol..

J/K it's cool.. but let me ask you this: what's the basis of your waiting 30-45 minutes to eat PWO? Also, what do you do immediately following w/o (there's kind of a hole in there)?

 

[Universal Rep]

There you go getting product specific on me man, lol..

J/K it's cool.. but let me ask you this: what's the basis of your waiting 30-45 minutes to eat PWO? Also, what do you do immediately following w/o (there's kind of a hole in there)?

The anabolic window of opportunity is not that short, S. That said, I agree--why take chances? I'll usually drink EAAs + CHO immediately after lifting--to prime the pump so to speak. Wait a bit, then my regular PWO shake. Then follow it up with a whole food meal as soon as I get home.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

The anabolic window of opportunity is not that short, S. That said, I agree--why take chances? I'll usually drink EAAs + CHO immediately after lifting--to prime the pump so to speak. Wait a bit, then my regular PWO shake. Then follow it up with a whole food meal as soon as I get home.

That is more or less what i do.. I may try and replace BCAA's with EAA's

 

[snagency]

The anabolic window of opportunity is not that short, S. That said, I agree--why take chances? I'll usually drink EAAs + CHO immediately after lifting--to prime the pump so to speak. Wait a bit, then my regular PWO shake. Then follow it up with a whole food meal as soon as I get home.

Shhhhh! I wanted his answer U! LOL!

I know the window is not that short; in fact, I myself wait @40 min. prior to consuming foods, but there's a reason for this. I just wanted to know what his was.

 

[Universal Rep]

Cite specific example for research? I've never seen anything that touts EAA over BCAA for muscle growth.

At the bottom of this (long) article, you'll find studies: http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?ID=178

 

[Universal Rep]

Shhhhh! I wanted his answer U! LOL!

I know the window is not that short; in fact, I myself wait @40 min. prior to consuming foods, but there's a reason for this. I just wanted to know what his was.

Hahaha, pwnd. I'm guessing I know why you wait 40 mins before chowing down on food anyway.

 

[snagency]

At the bottom of this (long) article, you'll find studies: http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?ID=178

Uh oh, studies that back up a Universal product..

Thanx for the link, I'll look into it.

 

[snagency]

Hahaha, pwnd. I'm guessing I know why you wait 40 mins before chowing down on food anyway.

And I'm betting your right..

 

[Universal Rep]

Uh oh, studies that back up a Universal product..

Thanx for the link, I'll look into it.

Gotta remember Animal Nitro was one of the first EAA supps to come out--what was it, like 3-4 years ago--long before EAAs became popular? It was based on that growing body of EAA literature.

Check 'em out and then tell me ya prefer BCAAs, hahaha...

 

[snagency]

Gotta remember Animal Nitro was one of the first EAA supps to come out--what was it, like 3-4 years ago--long before EAAs became popular? It was based on that growing body of EAA literature.

Check 'em out and then tell me ya prefer BCAAs, hahaha...

Oh I will read up on it - love learning things. Still have to see before I'll believe it. Dunno about the EAA popularity timeframe. I think I first used Purple Wraath like 3-4 yrs. ago it seems, so they've been on the scene for awhile.
All I'm saying is I could shove literally PAGES of research at you on BCAA's & muscle-specific benefits, so one would think EAA specific research would now be just as easily accessed.
I will say this tho: my favorite BCAA complex of all time does have an EAA complex to it - MNT's Nitro E8 (with the prop blend thing, can't see how it breaks down, BUT the BCAA's are the first 3 of the aminos listed, so we know they form the majority of the compound).

 

[bolt10]

Steve these are the kinda threads you need to make i have thought about asking your opinions on these kinda things before...good commentary so far and i hope more suggestions are to come.

 

[SoCo4Fun]

My current routine is new to me so we will see how it goes...I based it off of a few things...Mauro DiPasquale states in the Anabolic Diet that carbos are not needed PWO as long as you have a good BCAA/EAA supplement...which I believe I do...also, I like to give my body a chance to take all those BCAA/EAA's and shuttle them into the muscles before forcing all the blood to my stomach to digest a shake...also it takes me that long to get home and make food...hahaha

This is a new experiment for me so we will see what the results are like.

 

[snagency]

My current routine is new to me so we will see how it goes...I based it off of a few things...Mauro DiPasquale states in the Anabolic Diet that carbos are not needed PWO as long as you have a good BCAA/EAA supplement...which I believe I do...also, I like to give my body a chance to take all those BCAA/EAA's and shuttle them into the muscles before forcing all the blood to my stomach to digest a shake...also it takes me that long to get home and make food...hahaha

This is a new experiment for me so we will see what the results are like.

Aha! Exactly my man! Very nice.

I do believe carbs are needed, but the anabolic window of opportunity is longer than most believe. I did not know DiPasquale proposed such protocol. BCAA's will help retain lean mass in reduced cal dietary intake.. but I believe to grow new & fresh muscle carbs are absolutely essential. This comes from personal experience and yrs. living on ketogenic diet. Kinda hard to put new muscle on in that state.

You are absolutely correct with your ideology of BCAA absorption tho imo. Too many people don't understand the effect digestion has on the BCAA absorption process. :thumbsup:

 

[snagency]

Steve these are the kinda threads you need to make i have thought about asking your opinions on these kinda things before...good commentary so far and i hope more suggestions are to come.

Thanks buddy, I'm branching out, haha! :~)

Actually, I'm looking for information, need some more people to participate.. soooo, hop on in with your .02!

 

[bolt10]

Thanks buddy, I'm branching out, haha! :~)

Actually, I'm looking for information, need some more people to participate.. soooo, hop on in with your .02!

Welll i am still young so i have plenty to learn but i'll give it a go with what i usually do on bulks(since i don't cut very often..)



About 2 hours pre i take some creatine+ba w/my p-slin then eat a meal.

45 minutes pre i may take a stim(if need be)

15-30 minutes pre i like some EAAs+carbs+citrulline malate+sometimes arginine(if not on stims i also like some tyrosine+alcar around this time)

During i like EAAs+electrolytes+optional carbs

Usually immediately after i have been taking carbs+protein(1.5 scoops Core MRP+~25grams WMS at the moment..)

Then a nice post workout meal as soon as i get home.



I have also had great results with EAAs+electrolytes during then eating a whole food meal as soon as possible afterwords(when i was at school this is what i did usually ate about 15 minutes after lifting)

 

[snagency]

Welll i am still young so i have plenty to learn but i'll give it a go with what i usually do on bulks(since i don't cut very often..)

Nonsense, you are way ahead of the game, thanx for contributing..

15-30 minutes pre i like some EAAs+carbs+citrulline malate+sometimes arginine(if not on stims i also like some tyrosine+alcar around this time)

During i like EAAs+electrolytes+optional carbs

Interesting. Tell me about these carbs - are we talking dextrose/sucrose or what? What exactly do you use? (Go ahead & list product if that's the case).

 

[bolt10]

Nonsense, you are way ahead of the game, thanx for contributing..






Interesting. Tell me about these carbs - are we talking dextrose/sucrose or what? What exactly do you use? (Go ahead & list product if that's the case).

I usually use WMS. But i have also used some dex/malto before. Idk just imo i like the WMS better as it really doesn't bother my stomach at all.

Or the times when i have used size-on(don't know the exact carbs in it off the top of my head)

 

[jamescho79]

i usually use a pre workout sup first thing in the morning. wait 30 min then head out.

mix BCAA and electrolytes mixture during.

creatine right afterwards. wait 20 min and take WMS, wait another 20 or so and take a protein shake. 45 - 60 min later a meal.

 

[SoCo4Fun]

In the past I've always used carbs PWO...I have a metric sh*t ton of WMS here but I want to try and stick to what is suggested in The Anabolic Diet for a bit to see how it works...I figure if Dante (DoggCrapp) signs off on it there must be some merit to it...if it doesn't work, oh well, but it's worth a try...

 

[Steveoph]

I have to say I've gone away from PWO Shakes. For a few years I would always do a PWO shake, originally fast carbs & whey, then I switched to lower-GI carbs like oats, banana's & milk/yogurt. The last 6 months, I've switched to whole food immediately PWO and I haven't noticed any negative impact. I feel if you avoid fats in your PWO meal and have it quickly afterwards, you still can fit it in that "Window of Opportunity". But also I think overall daily calories are as important as getting in the proper nutrients right around my workout.

60-90 mins pre-WO I have breakfast, porridge (oatmeal) of about 80g complex carbs, 10-15g simple carbs from berries + Whey Protein.
30-45 I might take a pre-WO supp, lately I've been doing JP8 but I am stim-sensitive so I try and stay away from pre-WO supps w/ too much caffeine.
Peri-Workout BCAA's, Glutamine & Leucine
Post-WO Carb & Pro meal

That being said, I don't think a PWO shake is wrong, but I enjoy my solid foods too much lol. I have some pretty killer chicken and sweetpotato recipes I like PWO

 

[DaveGabe24]

I have to say I've gone away from PWO Shakes. For a few years I would always do a PWO shake, originally fast carbs & whey, then I switched to lower-GI carbs like oats, banana's & milk/yogurt. The last 6 months, I've switched to whole food immediately PWO and I haven't noticed any negative impact. I feel if you avoid fats in your PWO meal and have it quickly afterwards, you still can fit it in that "Window of Opportunity". But also I think overall daily calories are as important as getting in the proper nutrients right around my workout.

That being said, I don't think a PWO shake is wrong, but I enjoy my solid foods too much lol. I have some pretty killer chicken and sweetpotato recipes I like PWO

Well said. I've said it before, but I feel it's worth another mention. Search around the internet for some of Alan Aragon's posts/info on post-workout nutrition.

Basically the whole "insulin spike" myth is over, solid protein/carbs post-workout is where it's at (i prefer whole food as well).

Many studies have proven that pre/intra-workout actually has a greater effect on results than post-workout. Assuming your nutrition is solid throughout the day, the effects of immediate post-workout nutrition become very very minimal.

 

[snagency]

In the past I've always used carbs PWO...I have a metric sh*t ton of WMS here but I want to try and stick to what is suggested in The Anabolic Diet for a bit to see how it works...I figure if Dante (DoggCrapp) signs off on it there must be some merit to it...if it doesn't work, oh well, but it's worth a try...

Sure, experimentation is a must bro. Different strokes for different folks. Trudell's an interesting cat - DC training is some good stuff.
I don't think the Anabolic principle is bad by any means. It should lean you out for sure. The body is adaptive to almost any BB diet out there, to a point. My opinion is solely for the long-haul; find it tough to see how one would add muscle using that diet as a lifestyle for long duration.
I genuinely hope it works for you!

 

[snagency]

Well said. I've said it before, but I feel it's worth another mention. Search around the internet for some of Alan Aragon's posts/info on post-workout nutrition.

Basically the whole "insulin spike" myth is over, solid protein/carbs post-workout is where it's at (i prefer whole food as well).

Many studies have proven that pre/intra-workout actually has a greater effect on results than post-workout. Assuming your nutrition is solid throughout the day, the effects of immediate post-workout nutrition become very very minimal.

No doubt on pre/intra having HUGE impact; this is an incredibly powerfull time to load the proper things into one's system. Not too sure I would agree on the pwo aspect being minimal however..

 

[Aggravated]

I tend to keep my POST WO supps to a minimum while sticking to the basics. Fruit (for simple carbs), whey, and BCAAs. I just make sure I have the necessary elements I need for immediate uptake. I eat a whole foods meal about an hour later. Sucks for me, because I train in the evening. Dinner used to be my favorite, but when cutting/recomp period I have to watch the carbs around that time. Chicken and cans of green beans get old pretty quick.

Not many "supplements" come to my mind when I think of POST WO. Maybe mono, but really just the essentials

P.S. :FUfinger: Glutamine

 

[snagency]

You can take advantage of the massive bloodflow at the end of training to push nutrients directly to the muscle (yes with no insulin spike) and without the body using those materials to power your next set - because you're done training. It's recovery time.. so one could say these materials are better utilized at this point.

 

[snagency]

P.S. :FUfinger: Glutamine

Ouch.. I guess you're called "Aggravated" for a reason eh? lol..

 

[thebigt]

Oh I will read up on it - love learning things. Still have to see before I'll believe it. Dunno about the EAA popularity timeframe. I think I first used Purple Wraath like 3-4 yrs. ago it seems, so they've been on the scene for awhile.
All I'm saying is I could shove literally PAGES of research at you on BCAA's & muscle-specific benefits, so one would think EAA specific research would now be just as easily accessed.
I will say this tho: my favorite BCAA complex of all time does have an EAA complex to it - MNT's Nitro E8 (with the prop blend thing, can't see how it breaks down, BUT the BCAA's are the first 3 of the aminos listed, so we know they form the majority of the compound).

i think you like teaching things too.:lol: always find great info in your threads. props.

 

[DaveGabe24]

No doubt on pre/intra having HUGE impact; this is an incredibly powerfull time to load the proper things into one's system. Not too sure I would agree on the pwo aspect being minimal however..

here's the eaa + carb study I was referring to:

Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.
Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.

Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA. [email protected]

The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.

PMID: 11440894 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Here's a great post from Alan on WMS for everyone to read:

As for your fear of the insulin spike, WMS is actually more insulinemic & glycemic than your standard glucose polymer solution. Earlier research showed no difference in glycemia and insulinemia between WMS & the glucose polymer, but there are at least a couple major things to consider: a total of 300g was consumed in 30-minute intervals over a 6-hr period. The significance here is that this dosing scheme may have caused a highly efficient delivery of glucose to the intestine. Since this happened alongside a faster glucose uptake by the muscles, major increases in blood glucose were neutralized.

Now stick with me here. In the latest WMS study, a more realistic 100g was used, and better blood sampling methodology was used. Guess what? As a result of its quicker gastric emptying, WMS caused a 17.3% higher peak insulin level and a 10.9% higher blood glucose peak. Given this, any glucose intolerance or insulin sensitivity issues will definitely be amplfied with WMS. Keep in mind that when taking any CHO with protein or AA, the insulin response will synergistically elevate, and this can counteract and drive down the expected elevation in blood glucose.

and as far as my opinion on minimal importance of PWO, here's some info backing that up:

OBJECTIVE

the objective here is to sustain elevated insulin concentrations & get a head start on recovery by antagonizing cortisol & other catabolic elements, replenish water & glygogen, and restore levels of circulating amino acids. this is mistakenly viewed as the most important meal of the day, which is BS. why? because if you're not properly fueled prior to this point, you might compromise your training performance, and you won't achieve the same level of protein synthesis & antiproteolysis. thus, it's equally important in the large scheme of things.

So while "minimal" may be a strong word, my point is, that when everything else is in check..it should no longer be held in such a high regard. Solid protein/carbs post-workout (possibly some fruit for antioxidants) and you should be fine.

 

[snagency]

So while "minimal" may be a strong word, my point is, that when everything else is in check..it should no longer be held in such a high regard. Solid protein/carbs post-workout (possibly some fruit for antioxidants) and you should be fine.

Agreed. I'm not argueing as to PWO nutrition being more important that pre/intra (I very much agree with you on this point); the whole PWO nutrition theology is overblown. That being said - I do believe there is intrinsic value & opportunity here in the right combination of supplementation.

Very good reference btw..

 

[snagency]

i think you like teaching things too.:lol: always find great info in your threads. props.

Thanks bro, appreciate the compliment.