DAA reduces testosterone at 3 and 6 g

[braskibra]

Three and six grams supplementation of d-aspartic acid in resistance trained men. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[kisaj]

I will always question DAA regardless of dose as 3g dropped my total and free test significantly and increased e2.

 

[T-Bone]

These were youngsters in the study with already high testosterone. Study doesn't involve anyone on pct or anyone with an already reduced testosterone level. I'd like to see a study on relatively older men aged 40 and up or one done on people in PCT.

 

[volt]

I'm 40 and currently on pct and using DAA. I don't know what me test levels are but I feel great.

 

[volt]

Oh, and I am taking 3g a day.

 

[roy_jones]

I wish I'd seen this study before I spent a bunch of money on DAA supplements. I'm usually skeptical of test boosters anyway. It's possible it will still have some use for PCT, but 90% of users are taking it within the healthy range thinking it will help.

 

[j4ever41]

I will always question DAA regardless of dose as 3g dropped my total and free test significantly and increased e2.

about the same thing happen to me, it dropped my total by what i would call insignificant but my free did drop significantly, and yes i am over 40 with low levels, i wish more people would get blood work done and not just go by how they feel.

 

[volt]

I am getting blood work done in June. I'm not saying that the DAA is making me feel great but that is really all that I am taking besides the normal supp's. I was told that coming off of my bulk I would feel lethargic and weak. But instead I feel great and I am still able to increase either weight or reps almost every session. I am curious as to how I will feel when I stop the DAA. I might be delaying the inevitable with the DAA and crash after I come off. Hope not...

 

[Auslifter]

i hate DAA

 

[Freakshow]

Whats the thoughts on NMDA

 

[ucheoma]

DAA gradually down the tubes then. How long before supp companies realise the game's up on this one.

Glad I didn't get too deep into it!! Have to wonder though that the 3 or 4 studies don't seem to come up with consistent findings

 

[alvin1]

So there is this study and the original one, wich one to believe?

 

[UCSMiami]

I hate to admit this but today I took some D-aspartic acid I had for some time. Previously, I took a regular serving, 3 grams, and within 30 minutes I had considerable energy, too much energy. Put it back on the shelf. Well I did it today, only about half a serving mixed with water in the same container I had some Creatine and the same effect.- as previously only not too uncontrollable energy. But I popped a headache which I never get. When I got home after the workout- ate some oats and yogurt to calm my stomach. That worked. Now normal.

For what it is worth. recent blood work from April 2015
830 TT
11.3 FT
46 DHT

 

[ucheoma]

I hate to admit this but today I took some D-aspartic acid I had for some time. Previously, I took a regular serving, 3 grams, and within 30 minutes I had considerable energy, too much energy. Put it back on the shelf. Well I did it today, only about half a serving mixed with water in the same container I had some Creatine and the same effect.- as previously only not too uncontrollable energy. But I popped a headache which I never get. When I got home after the workout- ate some oats and yogurt to calm my stomach. That worked. Now normal.

For what it is worth. recent blood work from April 2015
830 TT
11.3 FT
46 DHT

Not clear on the issue you're raising here?

Are you saying you thonk youre daa has gone bad?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Three and six grams supplementation of d-aspartic acid in resistance trained men. - PubMed - NCBI

What this is saying, as with a lot of things, including vitamins such as B5, a "mega dose" tends to have the reverse affect. 6g of DAA reduced total and free test, 3g didnt do anything. Not sure why because people "swear" DAA is working left and right.

Here is one from last year saying 1.8g for 28 days didnt do anything neither:

the gonadal hormones and cortisol and prolactin were unaffected by 28 days of NMDA supplementation and not associated with the observed increases in muscle strength and mass. At the dose provided, NMDA had no effect on HPG axis activity or ergogenic effects in skeletal muscle. Key PointsIn response to 28 days of heavy resistance training and NMDA supplementation, similar increases in muscle mass and strength in both groups occurred; however, the increases were not different between supplement groups.The supplementation of NMDA had no preferential effect on augmenting testosterone or decreasing estrogen, cortisol, and prolactin.

Heavy Resistance Training and Supplementation With the Alleged Testosterone Booster Nmda has No Effect on Body Composition, Muscle Performance, and... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[UCSMiami]

Not clear on the issue you're raising here?

Are you saying you thonk youre daa has gone bad?

I meant the DAA does not work or only works on males near to or with hypogonadism allegation. DAA Sparked me right up. Everybody responds a bit different to this stuff. Other stims are too strong for me that work fine for some folk.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Not clear on the issue you're raising here?

Are you saying you thonk youre daa has gone bad?

I think he is saying DAA gives him energy.

 

[ucheoma]

I meant the DAA does not work or only works on males near to or with hypogonadism allegation. DAA Sparked me right up. Everybody responds a bit different to this stuff. Other stims are too strong for me that work fine for some folk.

Thanks. So you're saying daa works for you? You said when you last took daa it gave you a headache so wasn't quite sure if this was a good thing or not.

 

[mr.cooper69]

What this is saying, as with a lot of things, including vitamins such as B5, a "mega dose" tends to have the reverse affect. 6g of DAA reduced total and free test, 3g didnt do anything. Not sure why because people "swear" DAA is working left and right.

Here is one from last year saying 1.8g for 28 days didnt do anything neither:

the gonadal hormones and cortisol and prolactin were unaffected by 28 days of NMDA supplementation and not associated with the observed increases in muscle strength and mass. At the dose provided, NMDA had no effect on HPG axis activity or ergogenic effects in skeletal muscle. Key PointsIn response to 28 days of heavy resistance training and NMDA supplementation, similar increases in muscle mass and strength in both groups occurred; however, the increases were not different between supplement groups.The supplementation of NMDA had no preferential effect on augmenting testosterone or decreasing estrogen, cortisol, and prolactin.

Heavy Resistance Training and Supplementation With the Alleged Testosterone Booster Nmda has No Effect on Body Composition, Muscle Performance, and... - PubMed - NCBI

This study is on NMDA. Same mechanism, very different in vivo effects

 

[UCSMiami]

Thanks. So you're saying daa works for you? You said when you last took daa it gave you a headache so wasn't quite sure if this was a good thing or not.

Yes but it could be stimulating me in other areas. Appear to be stim sensitive so maybe it is a neuro reaction. Unless I take a blood test for Tlevels I really will not know what the reaction is about. Much energy but followed by headaches. A bit upset stomach as well. I never have headaches or stomach issues.

 

[kisaj]

FWIW, a lot of us have complained about headaches from DAA. I would get them on the back of my head and they would be piercing, almost like a migraine.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Yes but it could be stimulating me in other areas. Appear to be stim sensitive so maybe it is a neuro reaction. Unless I take a blood test for Tlevels I really will not know what the reaction is about. Much energy but followed by headaches. A bit upset stomach as well. I never have headaches or stomach issues.

I can see this as being true (the energy effect), there are D-Asp. receptors in the nervous system(s).

 

[UCSMiami]

I have been stimulant leery for a long while. I lifted impressively [for me] last weekend and thought maybe I could do even more so tried a bit still in storage.

I have to give this stuff up, do not want to be the Darwin Award winner who offed himself with supplements. Young fellow in the News recently did it with caffeine OD. Imagine that.

 

[T-Bone]

I have been stimulant leery for a long while. I lifted impressively [for me] last weekend and thought maybe I could do even more so tried a bit still in storage.

I have to give this stuff up, do not want to be the Darwin Award winner who offed himself with supplements. Young fellow in the News recently did it with caffeine OD. Imagine that.

Why give it up if it seems to be helping you?. Because of one single study?. Clearly you are benefiting from it's use.

 

[UCSMiami]

I mean my other experiences with stuff like Beta Alanine and Tongkat Ali. Which is why I think I am unusually sensitive. Minor doses have a very pronounced effect on me. I mean minor for bodyweight.

 

[ucheoma]

Why give it up if it seems to be helping you?. Because of one single study?. Clearly you are benefiting from it's use.

Not sure if there is a clear benefit in the abscence of bloodwork. In any case any benefit needs to be weighed against the side effects of the headaches. Cant be pleasant!

 

[kisaj]

I've never seen anyone show that DAA actually works as intended to increase test.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I look at at like: Even if it *does* increase production 40% - assuming a really suppressive cycle, what's 40% of 100? Hell, 40% of 500 would put you at 700. The diff between a guy at 5 & 7? Nada, IMO. LBM wise, no way it matters, <--- Physiological Range ---> "Well Being" wise - I say placebo until science says otherwise. I actually tossed a few weeks worth of DAA last week, thankfully it was dirt cheap.

 

[kboxer7]

Only thing I ever noticed was a mild stimulant like effect from DAA. Other than that I found it quite ineffective, although cheap.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

So essentially:

1 study showed DAA increases test --> 23 males tested (not including placebo)
1 study showed NMDA does not increases levels significantly (but they did increase slightly) --> 10 males (20 split between placbo and NMDA)
1 study shows 3 grams doesnt effect and 6 grams of DAA lowers test --> 8 men and 8 men

So 23 men responded with an increase.....18 men had a none statistically relevant response(10 with NMDA and 8 with DAA)....8 men had a negative response(see below note).

I believe the only logical conclusion is that with a sample size of 39 men using DAA (23 increase at 3.12g, 8 no change at 3g, and 8 goes down at 6g), this isn't enough to reach statistical significance, and more research is needed before we start casting stones.


Note (an explanation to why this could lower test). DAA will increase estrogen. Estrogen is part of the negative feedback loop to slow down test production. If not supplemented with something to suppress estrogen (personally I would also supplement with something to control prolactin as well), physiologically I can see why it may lower production of test.

Therefore I think it can be argued that DAA does indeed affect the HPTA to secrete more LH...however if estrogen is left unchecked, the body will undergo normal physiological process to regulate the increase in estrogen by decreasing the amount of LH secreted As a quick refresher:
GnRH(hypothalamus)-->LH(pituatary)-->Test-->Estrogen

Furthermore a quick google search will show DAA bloodwork on both sides of the fence. Some respond with an increase and others do not. Therefore if one is to supplement with DAA, given we know it does affect both sex hormones, grab a good anti-estrogen to prevent this from being an issue.

 

[ucheoma]

You could say the same relationship exists for any test booster not just DAA! Why is this U curve so apparent with DAA? In my mind however you look at it it's still a negative against DAA the fact you have to stack a t booster with anti Es and Ps to prevent T reduction. Might as well not take it in the first place and you'd probably be better off in your wallet as well. Sample sizes may be small but it's one of the better researched (and marketed) t boosters. On balance the cons outweigh the pros IMO

So essentially:

1 study showed DAA increases test --> 23 males tested (not including placebo)
1 study showed NMDA does not increases levels significantly (but they did increase slightly) --> 10 males (20 split between placbo and NMDA)
1 study shows 3 grams doesnt effect and 6 grams of DAA lowers test --> 8 men and 8 men

So 23 men responded with an increase.....18 men had a none statistically relevant response(10 with NMDA and 8 with DAA)....8 men had a negative response(see below note).

I believe the only logical conclusion is that with a sample size of 39 men using DAA (23 increase at 3.12g, 8 no change at 3g, and 8 goes down at 6g), this isn't enough to reach statistical significance, and more research is needed before we start casting stones.


Note (an explanation to why this could lower test). DAA will increase estrogen. Estrogen is part of the negative feedback loop to slow down test production. If not supplemented with something to suppress estrogen (personally I would also supplement with something to control prolactin as well), physiologically I can see why it may lower production of test.

Therefore I think it can be argued that DAA does indeed affect the HPTA to secrete more LH...however if estrogen is left unchecked, the body will undergo normal physiological process to regulate the increase in estrogen by decreasing the amount of LH secreted As a quick refresher:
GnRH(hypothalamus)-->LH(pituatary)-->Test-->Estrogen

Furthermore a quick google search will show DAA bloodwork on both sides of the fence. Some respond with an increase and others do not. Therefore if one is to supplement with DAA, given we know it does affect both sex hormones, grab a good anti-estrogen to prevent this from being an issue.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

You could say the same relationship exists for any test booster not just DAA! Why is this U curve so apparent with DAA? In my mind however you look at it it's still a negative against DAA the fact you have to stack a t booster with anti Es and Ps to prevent T reduction. Might as well not take it in the first place and you'd probably be better off in your wallet as well. Sample sizes may be small but it's one of the better researched (and marketed) t boosters. On balance the cons outweigh the pros IMO

Actually you can say the same relationship of people being on both sides of the fence for virtually EVERY supplement. The same goes for diet and routines. Thats why the best advice you give someone for diet and exercise is experiment until you find what works best for you...the same will go for test boosters. How can that be considered a negative?

And the cons you argue are basically...it should be stacked And that 6g in 8 people showed instead of going up like 3.12g did....it went down?

 

[JudoJosh]

You could say the same relationship exists for any test booster not just DAA! Why is this U curve so apparent with DAA? In my mind however you look at it it's still a negative against DAA the fact you have to stack a t booster with anti Es and Ps to prevent T reduction. Might as well not take it in the first place and you'd probably be better off in your wallet as well. Sample sizes may be small but it's one of the better researched (and marketed) t boosters. On balance the cons outweigh the pros IMO

I assume you mean inverted u curve, not a u curve, and no they are not common with test boosters.

 

[JudoJosh]

The paper is interesting. Wonder why test levels dropped. The authors didn't speculate that much, nothing too detailed, besides just a few ideas. I think the take away here is to stick with 3g and the old saying, more isn't always better, rings true

 

[j4ever41]

i stuck with 3g and got nothing from it and BW showed it, and my E did not increase.

 

[LiftWithDonuts]

i recently looked over a study that showed 3g didnt do anything for test and 6g acually lowered it

 

[JudoJosh]

i recently looked over a study that showed 3g didnt do anything for test and 6g acually lowered it

Besides the one in the very first post of this thread?

 

[LiftWithDonuts]

actually, the same study. I saw it on JISSN and not pub.md and didnt realize it as by the same people, oops

 

[kboxer7]

Anecdotal, but I never feel very good while on DAA. A few times I even got itchy nips...which really DAA shouldn't have increased estrogen levels that much but who knows.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

And I again ask: Even if it worked 100% perfectly in 100% of individuals - 40% of nothing (heavy cycle PCT), is nothing. For the average Joe, you go from 500 to 700... yeah, and... ? It's a good thing this stuff is cheap, or PT Barnum would be having a field day.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

And I again ask: Even if it worked 100% perfectly in 100% of individuals - 40% of nothing (heavy cycle PCT), is nothing. For the average Joe, you go from 500 to 700... yeah, and... ? It's a good thing this stuff is cheap, or PT Barnum would be having a field day.

If it worked 100% of the time.... in a truly suppressed individual, the increase would be greater then 40%. Lets take your example and say LH was 0. Actually if it was suppressed to nothing....the increase could not be measured in percents being that you cant take a percentage of nothing.

If it worked 100% of the time...an individual who was coming off a cycle and their LH was supressed to virtually 0....would have a greater then 40% increase in test(actually 40% of zero is mathematically zero but i think you see my point, and if you dont I can rephrase this argument to be mathematically accurate). If it worked 100% of the time, and allows the body to secrete an increased amount of LH, this would aid an individual coming off cycle increasing test substantially. Lets say it increase LH to 4 from zero....well that will translate to test going from double digits to a eugondal state being that 4 is a normal range of LH. Keeping estrogen in check the levels should be back to normal. This is again supposing it worked 100% of the time without fail, which we both know not even therapuetic drugs work the same with everyone like that.

Furthermore, it is not logical to expect any natural product to boost test levels beyond the natural limit being that your body will not allow it under normal circumstances. So a 40% increase in a normal individual is actually a lot being that this negative feedback mechanism is in place.

So if it worked 100% of the time, it would be a valuable PCT aid and an effective natural testbooster. Would you be putting on crazy mass staying in normal levels? No. But just because it doesnt have the same effect as getting on the juice and increasing your levels 2x the normal limit, doesnt make it bunk or a bad supplement.

Heck Im pretty sure there are a couple 100 logs of DAA out there showing the spectrum of good, okay, and nothing. On another website I saw one guy go from 407 to 505. And another guy after a cycle was at 25 ran DAA with some vit D(and some A-HD) and his level shot up to 726. Another guy using testforce saw his estrogen(6-->24 i think) shoot up and his test go down(586 to 555).

It is by no means the best testbooster out there, and I am intrigued by the new data. But I dont think we can dismiss it just yet, especially with the fact we can probably gain a larger population for its effectiveness by looking at individuals who have posted blood work on it.

 

[ucheoma]

Thanks. That is what I meant. The research suggests that DAA does nothing in resistance trained athletes. Also test boosting effects where they do occur are very short term - c2wks

Knowing there are other boosters which don't suffer from the inverted u curve effect yet boost test to the same or even greater levels can't figure why people would want to stick to DAA but to each their own I guess

I assume you mean inverted u curve, not a u curve, and no they are not common with test boosters.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Your post.

Thanks for taking the time for that info. I may not have been clear in my opinion though - by "working 100%" I meant everyone who takes it has a 40% increase in T, from wherever they're at now. So I still say DAA is pretty useless. It's not enough of a boost for a heavily suppressed individual, and (in my opinion) even a 200-300 point boost for a "normal" guy, for a few weeks before NFL, does nothing physiological. I hope I didn't come across as expecting DAA to put individuals in the Supra-physiological range.

 

[JudoJosh]

You are too focused on this "40%" number.

Why do you think 40% is the maximal increase?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Because that's the most that was shown in an actual human study (and the number pimped by supp companies... if it were bigger, you'd definitely gear about it, LOL). What is the max number you have seen in a human study?

BTW, for some reason, I have ZERO thread notifications after being gone for a few days, so If anyone replied to me in any others, I'll have to go searching. Board glitch?

 

[kboxer7]

Because that's the most that was shown in an actual human study (and the number pimped by supp companies... if it were bigger, you'd definitely gear about it, LOL). What is the max number you have seen in a human study?

BTW, for some reason, I have ZERO thread notifications after being gone for a few days, so If anyone replied to me in any others, I'll have to go searching. Board glitch?

I haven't seen anything over 40% in any study either. And as you pointed out, a 40% increase for 14 days isn't going to create a T level capable of any noticeable difference.

 

[Islander73]

One thing people don't look at is the effect daa has on other hormones such a gh. This the only test booster I have ever noticed a difference when taking. I would love to see a study that looked at gh on daa. Also I think older lifters will see some benefits from it vs younger lifters.

 

[ucheoma]

One thing people don't look at is the effect daa has on other hormones such a gh. This the only test booster I have ever noticed a difference when taking. I would love to see a study that looked at gh on daa. Also I think older lifters will see some benefits from it vs younger lifters.

What data or evidence is there to support effects on gh and on older lifters?

 

[TheFugitive]

I've never been a fan of DAA but I did get a decent libido boost off a liquid version. TCF-1 by PP

 

[TheFugitive]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2774316/