Ever wonder what's actually in your supps?

[NixHex]

Because I do. And I had a tiny bit of time to try some things out. My current stack consists of Follidrone and Dermacrine (among others), and I know there's this whole thing with the NY attorney general and herbal supplements, so what I decided to do was to throw some of the supplements I'm currently taking down an LC-MS.

I had some trouble solubilizing follidrone, which I imagine was due to the rice flour or other excipients, but just added mixture of MeOH/water and filtered through cotton in a glass pipette.

Running on positive ion mode, C18 column, H2O:ACN solvent system
Epicatechin molecular weight = 290.27.
Since it's positive ion mode, I'm looking for Mass+1, so 291.27.

The middle red line is the Total Ion Current (TIC) for the entire run and the bottom red line is the mass spec for the retention time of 0.84 min. The top purple line is a search for the mass of 291.2 through the entire run. Sure enough, it hits at ~0.84 min.
In case you're wondering what it all means, there is epicatechin in follidrone and it looks like it's pretty darn pure (if I had time and effort, I would love to run an HPLC, since LC-MS occasionally doesn't tell you the entire story of a sample, whereas HPLC would. Also, I would love to run an NMR of follidrone alongside an internal standard to determine actual amount of epicatechin in each dose. Is it really 500mg?)

Next I ran Dermacrine, sample made up in MeOH, same mobile/stationary phase conditions
DHEA mw = 288.42
Preg mw = 316.4

Masses hit for 290 and 317, at 2.07 min and ~3min, respectively. I really could see 317, but the signal was really low. I'm sure I'm testing the lower limits of detection since I already diluted the sample pretty good. (If you're wondering why I chose 290 to search instead of 289 (M+1), the signal was stronger for 290, but 289 was there. Just wanted to make sure the peak was being seen.)

tldr: Follidrone contains epicatechin and Dermacrine contains DHEA with a small amount of Pregnenolone, per label facts.

 

[JudoJosh]

Good to know. Plan on testing other things?

 

[grinnell27]

Good read! Thanks for that, glad to see labels meeting claims, not that I ever doubted either of those companies

 

[T-Bone]

Interesting stuff!. Test more supps!

 

[Driven2lift]

Subbed

 

[NixHex]

Yeah, I'm considering trying Erase Pro, I'm curious if I can fish out the arimistane, but I'm worried those other ingredients might muddle the interpretation of the MS. Not sure what else I could try. I could try my x-gels, arachadonic acid fits in the 100-2000 MW window, but like grinnell mentioned, I would be doubtful that x-gels isn't ArA. Although it's pretty neat to see the purity of follidrone, I was pretty surprised about that. This was kind of to fulfill my curiosity to see if it would actually show up in an LC-MS.

Also, I kind of have to do this when I have down time, I work in a research lab, and I had my supps with me and a bit of time to kill. I'll have to think of other things to try!

 

[Driven2lift]

Yeah, I'm considering trying Erase Pro, I'm curious if I can fish out the arimistane, but I'm worried those other ingredients might muddle the interpretation of the MS. Not sure what else I could try. I could try my x-gels, arachadonic acid fits in the 100-2000 MW window, but like grinnell mentioned, I would be doubtful that x-gels isn't ArA. Although it's pretty neat to see the purity of follidrone, I was pretty surprised about that. This was kind of to fulfill my curiosity to see if it would actually show up in an LC-MS. Also, I kind of have to do this when I have down time, I work in a research lab, and I had my supps with me and a bit of time to kill. I'll have to think of other things to try!

Erase has no arimistane anymore

Would like to see some other supps tested though for sure.

 

[NixHex]

Erase has no arimistane anymore

Would like to see some other supps tested though for sure.

Oooh interesting, I felt like I should have known that. I don't know why I thought otherwise. Just looked at the profile, so I think I could see that dehydroabietic acid on the LC-MS. Other supps I have and could potentially run are ABE and DAA and random BCAAs and creatine, though I don't really quite care about running aminos/creatine down an LC-MS.

 

[kisaj]

Wow, great extra work you are putting in on this. Reps to you!

 

[goodvibes]

Edit

 

[goodvibes]

I'm saying skip the LC side because you can lose yield when going through columns or imperfect gradient.

 

[goodvibes]

Looks like your software is analyst, so probably an ABsci MS.

 

[Misfit28]

Awesome work, OP! Thanks for posting up those results. Hope to see more!

 

[tyga tyga]

Subd for this

 

[Hockeyaus33]

This is just down right awesome!

 

[Rocket3015]

Nice !

 

[NixHex]

Looks like your software is analyst, so probably an ABsci MS.

We're running MassLynx software on a Waters lcms. I actually hadn't considered direct injecting and skipping the lc. I really kind of wanted to see if I could get resolution between components in case either was doped or spiked with something else. If I can be really honest, I really wanted to know if there was cialis in the dermacrine, just to see.

 

[Geoforce]

Erase Pro does not have Armistane, you're looking at a 700 mg prop blend of the following:

Boerhaavia Diffusa Root Extract, Uncaria Tomentosa Bark Extract, Pine Bark Extract (containing Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid)

Neat tests for sure.

 

[kisaj]

Lol!

 

[goodvibes]

We're running MassLynx software on a Waters lcms. I actually hadn't considered direct injecting and skipping the lc. I really kind of wanted to see if I could get resolution between components in case either was doped or spiked with something else. If I can be really honest, I really wanted to know if there was cialis in the dermacrine, just to see.

I revisited your results and you're actually running a TOF?! If you are that's awesome man, it's the best way to catch everything. I normally operate QQQs, but I have a few TOFs around.

 

[NixHex]

I revisited your results and you're actually running a TOF?! If you are that's awesome man, it's the best way to catch everything. I normally operate QQQs, but I have a few TOFs around.

Yeah, it's an awesome setup, the only problem is that it seems to have problems almost weekly. It doesn't help that a number of people treat it like a MALDI and throw biologics down it, which it's not really set up to do.

This morning I ran Erase Pro, same conditions as before
As I suspected, this spectrum is a little bit more complicated. Boerhaavia diffusa contains a number of compounds (including the Boeravinones, which you'll understand why I mention that in a bit), and the Uncaria Tomentosa also contains a number of compounds.
Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid aka Dehydroabietic acid MW is 300.44, which I couldn't find. A look at the structure suggests it might be a candidate for decarboxylation. Sure enough, a cursory glance at the literature (can't post links yet, but DOI: 10.1021/es9910816 and DOI:10.3390/molecules16097936) indicates that DHAA has degradation products including dehydroabietin (the decarboxylated DHAA). Sure enough, a search for 258.4 MW (DHAA-CO2) and the mass hits. Wondering if it has to do with exposure to light/water or the slightly acidic solvent conditions (both sovlents Acetonitrile and H20 include 0.1% formic acid).
Also, the mass for Boeravinones hits at 343.4.

I'm also running this very dilute, I'd rather not clog up our column with stuff I maybe shouldn't be running and have to explain why I'm running supps down an LC-MS

 

[Chrisehyoung]

Very interesting.

 

[Tabascoonall]

Hmmn got my attention. Subbed for more. Great job, really detailed

 

[goodvibes]

Yeah, it's an awesome setup, the only problem is that it seems to have problems almost weekly. It doesn't help that a number of people treat it like a MALDI and throw biologics down it, which it's not really set up to do.

This morning I ran Erase Pro, same conditions as before:
View attachment 114904

As I suspected, this spectrum is a little bit more complicated. Boerhaavia diffusa contains a number of compounds (including the Boeravinones, which you'll understand why I mention that in a bit), and the Uncaria Tomentosa also contains a number of compounds.
Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid aka Dehydroabietic acid MW is 300.44, which I couldn't find. A look at the structure suggests it might be a candidate for decarboxylation. Sure enough, a cursory glance at the literature (can't post links yet, but DOI: 10.1021/es9910816 and DOI:10.3390/molecules16097936) indicates that DHAA has degradation products including dehydroabietin (the decarboxylated DHAA). Sure enough, a search for 258.4 MW (DHAA-CO2) and the mass hits. Wondering if it has to do with exposure to light/water or the slightly acidic solvent conditions (both sovlents Acetonitrile and H20 include 0.1% formic acid).
Also, the mass for Boeravinones hits at 343.4.

I'm also running this very dilute, I'd rather not clog up our column with stuff I maybe shouldn't be running and have to explain why I'm running supps down an LC-MS

It's actually a very common practice shooting biological samples in it now. I do it all the time but my LC is setup for online extraction. There are some mishaps once in awhile but yes I agree with tofs breaking down frequently.

 

[T-Bone]

 

[Afi140]

Subbed

 

[Big ian]

Awesome work fella, thank you! keep it up

 

[GNO]

Subbed

 

[alanhouston90]

In! Thanks for taking the time to do this.

 

[braskibra]

IN!

 

[Jiigzz]

I don't know what any of that means, but looks cool

 

[Driven2lift]

I don't know what any of that means, but looks cool

Testing molecular weights to compare to the weights the compounds should be.

Not definite proof, but if the weight was +/-10% off I would be pretty sure the tested ingredient was not what it claimed to be.

 

[RegisterJr]

sub

 

[EatMoar]

Now this is cool. I've been trying to get my university to let me test some products. However, I've only tested my tbol to confirm it wasn't dbol +nolva and that took some convincing. Keep it up!

 

[De__eB]

Wonder if any companies are watching this thread nervously

 

[Misfit28]

Wonder if any companies are watching this thread nervously

LOL, I'm sure!

 

[frankz2]

Great thread.

 

[NixHex]

Been MIA, work picked up this week, we're trying to finalize a project so I've been focusing on that. But I haven't forgotten about this side project, I currently have plans to run the following: Anabeta Elite (feel like it's going to say much, but why not), Endosurge Turbo (would be cool if I could pick out 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran), AnabolicFreak DAA, and I am also planning on 11-oxo and xi-kt, but I haven't cracked open those yet, I'm waiting until I have my cycle protocols set for those. It has also been suggested to run some OL Osta, which I've been going back and forth about giving a month run anyway, so maybe it'll be a good excuse to get some, but I'll need to order that.

LOL, I'm sure!

I'm actually a little wary that I might expose some random supplement and then have the company go after me. Not realistic, right? Right? haha

 

[GNO]

Test some protien powders to see if they actually contains the amount of protein they say? That's very interesting to me

Plenty of info out there already on this, a lot of companies are doing 3rd party testing as well.

 

[brundel]

In case you're wondering what it all means, there is epicatechin in follidrone and it looks like it's pretty darn pure

tldr: Follidrone contains epicatechin and Dermacrine contains DHEA with a small amount of Pregnenolone, per label facts.

Thanks for running some tests bro. I appreciate it. I posted test results on Follidrone about a month ago and it was like yours, just about 100% pure.
Ultimately anyone can get a copy of a standard test and post it saying its their stuff so I appreciate you validating us.
For me its EXTREMELY important where our raw materials come from. Sometimes I pay more but guess what.....Our ingredients are always as pure as possible and free of contaminants. We dont source through the product manufacturer/bottler like many companies do. I source our raws and ship them myself so I can inspect before hand. I agree though there are likely some companies who are probably watching this closely.

 

[Piston Honda]

Subbed

 

[goodvibes]

Been MIA, work picked up this week, we're trying to finalize a project so I've been focusing on that. But I haven't forgotten about this side project, I currently have plans to run the following: Anabeta Elite (feel like it's going to say much, but why not), Endosurge Turbo (would be cool if I could pick out 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran), AnabolicFreak DAA, and I am also planning on 11-oxo and xi-kt, but I haven't cracked open those yet, I'm waiting until I have my cycle protocols set for those. It has also been suggested to run some OL Osta, which I've been going back and forth about giving a month run anyway, so maybe it'll be a good excuse to get some, but I'll need to order that.


I'm actually a little wary that I might expose some random supplement and then have the company go after me. Not realistic, right? Right? haha

Edit

 

[Jiigzz]

Testing molecular weights to compare to the weights the compounds should be.

Not definite proof, but if the weight was +/-10% off I would be pretty sure the tested ingredient was not what it claimed to be.

Oh haha I knew that much. I meant all the words he was saying.

 

[brundel]

Been MIA, work picked up this week, we're trying to finalize a project so I've been focusing on that. But I haven't forgotten about this side project, I currently have plans to run the following: Anabeta Elite (feel like it's going to say much, but why not), Endosurge Turbo (would be cool if I could pick out 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran), AnabolicFreak DAA, and I am also planning on 11-oxo and xi-kt, but I haven't cracked open those yet, I'm waiting until I have my cycle protocols set for those. It has also been suggested to run some OL Osta, which I've been going back and forth about giving a month run anyway, so maybe it'll be a good excuse to get some, but I'll need to order that.

I'm actually a little wary that I might expose some random supplement and then have the company go after me. Not realistic, right? Right? haha

I am Extremely interested to see if you find any divanill.

 

[braskibra]

test some nitrate products and bcaa products!

Id be interested, if companies spike protein, i wouldn't be surprised if they spiked bcaas with .....less expensive amino acids!

 

[rosemont83]

That's pretty awesome.
You should test other -(-) epi products to see if they all meet what they say..
Subbed

 

[Auslifter]

this is pretty neat following along.

 

[Misfit28]

Is Divanill hard to isolate?

 

[NixHex]

Hey all,
After some feedback and consideration, I've decided to stop updating this thread. While I love seeking truth, unfortunately, my head got the better of me and thought it would be wise to not rustle the supplement industry. Thanks for following along for the duration, though!
From my experience, it seems all the supplements I'm currently taking seem like they contain what the label states. I wouldn't have any reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Afi140]

Hey all, After some feedback and consideration, I've decided to stop updating this thread. While I love seeking truth, unfortunately, my head got the better of me and thought it would be wise to not rustle the supplement industry. Thanks for following along for the duration, though! From my experience, it seems all the supplements I'm currently taking seem like they contain what the label states. I wouldn't have any reason to believe otherwise.

boooooooooooooooo :/ well thanks for what you did do lol.