BCAA's are Dopamine Antagonists

andrew732

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YUP, not a fan of bcaas during training for that reason...
 

slimsaw00

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Can someone smarter than me (not too difficult) comment and go into more detail about that thread. Honestly I read that thread and I'm not really sure what its saying in "bottom line" type terms.

I usually use some sort of stimulant preworkout and then AminoIV intraworkout. . . . am I by doing this causing more harm than help?

Thanks in advance!

-Matt
 
Driven2lift

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Can someone smarter than me (not too difficult) comment and go into more detail about that thread. Honestly I read that thread and I'm not really sure what its saying in "bottom line" type terms. I usually use some sort of stimulant preworkout and then AminoIV intraworkout. . . . am I by doing this causing more harm than help? Thanks in advance! -Matt
No harm in that, just chronic use of either dopamine agonists or BCAAs would have detrimental effects.

There are guys out there mega-dosing BCAAs needlessly, all day and night long.
 

ma70

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I've been working out fasted with BCAAs for quite awhile. Hmmm...
 

mr.cooper69

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This isn't relevant to anything, just to be clear. They're not DA antagonists, they block the aromatic amino acid transporter at the BBB. This means chronic use of BCAAs will prevent tyrosine/trp from entering your brain for NT synthesis. This does not matter at all preworkout or intraworkout, wherein you're not presented with a huge intravascular dose of tryptophan or tyrosine to begin with
 
Driven2lift

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This isn't relevant to anything, just to be clear. They're not DA antagonists, they block the aromatic amino acid transporter at the BBB. This means chronic use of BCAAs will prevent tyrosine/trp from entering your brain for NT synthesis. This does not matter at all preworkout or intraworkout, wherein you're not presented with a huge intravascular dose of tryptophan or tyrosine to begin with
Thank you Coop, I knew it had no acute impacts like others were assuming, this is good to know
 

mr.cooper69

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Thank you Coop, I knew it had no acute impacts like others were assuming, this is good to know
No problem. People with maple syrup urine disease are the textbook example of this. They suffer severe neurological deficits because leucine is circulating at high levels 24/7.

Thus, in order to achieve persistently elevated blood BCAA levels, you typically need a disorder of BCAA metabolism which results in plasma build-up, because under normal circumstances, levels spike after ingestion and then rapidly drop. This paper is great in illustrating how BCAA metabolism may be linked to depression...but it is not great in extrapolating how to supplement your BCAAs
 
Quadzilla99

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No problem. People with maple syrup urine disease are the textbook example of this. They suffer severe neurological deficits because leucine is circulating at high levels 24/7.
They're swole as **** tho right? because if I've learned anything from these forums they must be
 
Driven2lift

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They're swole as **** tho right? because if I've learned anything from these forums they must be
You would think so but leucine responsiveness seems to work very similar to glucose.

By that I mean it only gets the insulin spike and increased MPS when it goes from a refractory period of low leucine concentration to getting the 3+ g dose again.

I wonder if some bodybuilder will megadose it so much they get an amino acid version of diabetes lol
 

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You would think so but leucine responsiveness seems to work very similar to glucose.

By that I mean it only gets the insulin spike and increased MPS when it goes from a refractory period of low leucine concentration to getting the 3+ g dose again.

I wonder if some bodybuilder will megadose it so much they get an amino acid version of diabetes lol
link to study please
 

Shocker279

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You can also add tyrosine or dl-phenylalanine to your bcaa's to address the dopamine reduction problem. You get the benefits of dopamine synthesis while still reducing tryptophan uptake. Very useful intra-workout to prevent fatigue.
 
Driven2lift

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link to study please
It was The Solution who showed this to me

Believe it is from Lyle, but I will let him hopefully refresh my memory
 
ELROCK

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You can also add tyrosine or dl-phenylalanine to your bcaa's to address the dopamine reduction problem. You get the benefits of dopamine synthesis while still reducing tryptophan uptake. Very useful intra-workout to prevent fatigue.
I was wondering if simply adding tyrosine would help alleviate some of the potential risk.
 
Driven2lift

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From a Lyle McDonald interview, he notes several various studies but they arent referenced, I can try to dig them uo

"As a quick note of introduction, recent studies have essentially demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is amino acids themselves that stimulate protein synthesis (with the BCAA and leucine specifically playing the primary role). Which makes a certain sort of sense when you think about it.

In any case, what the studies did was this: infused amino acids at a high level and measured protein synthesis. What they found was bizarre: initially protein synthesis went up considerably. Then, after two hours, protein synthesis started to go down. What's interesting is that protein synthesis went down despite the maintenance of high blood amino acid levels.

As well, the researchers found increased levels of urea production (a waste product of amino acid metabolism) suggesting that the continuing influx of amino acids was simply being burnt off.

The researchers suggested that the skeletal muscle had become "desensitized" to the effect of amino acids in terms of stimulating protein synthesis. Which also suggested that allowing blood amino acids to decrease again would be necessary to "resensitize" it to the effect of amino acids.

Interestingly, this is quite similar to the pattern observed in the now famous Boirie casein/whey study. While whey protein spiked amino acid levels and promoted whole-body protein synthesis, it also increased amino acid oxidation. Perhaps this was due to the muscle being "full" and having become desensitized to the amino acid levels, causing the rest to be oxidized off.

I'd also note that Layne Norton (a natural pro-bodybuilder who is doing his PhD work in protein metabolism) has apparently shown the same with protein feeding in rats. To my knowledge, this hasn't yet been shown for protein feeding in humans.

However, bodybuilders typically try to eat protein frequently with the goal of maintaining nearly constant blood amino acid levels and the above research suggests that this may not be the best idea.

Rather, spiking amino acid levels (to promote protein synthesis) and then allowing them to decrease again (by not eating more protein too frequently) may turn out to be a better pattern for mass gains. Another possibility is that by alternating very fast acting proteins (which generate a quick spike followed by a drop) between whole-food meals may turn out to be superior."
 
Driven2lift

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Since coming across that info I cut back to 4 meals a day, typically reserving casein for only the last.

Is it the best way? New studies are popping up all the time so who knows but I've become accustomed to it now.
+ Select or USP protein ice cream before bed is just awesome ;)
 

Shocker279

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I was wondering if simply adding tyrosine would help alleviate some of the potential risk.
Yeah adding tyrosine will prevent the risk of lowering dopamine. I do that every time I take bcaa and it works great.
 
Dopamean1

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Increasing levels of BH4 (Tetrahydrobiopterin) will alleviate this as well. Decreasing ammonia via Citruline, supplementing with NADH, Royal Jelly and L-Carnitine will help maintain BH4 levels. Another, more expensive option, is supplemental BH4. Only one company makes a homepathic version, otherwise it's available via prescription call Kuvan.
 

mr.cooper69

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Increasing levels of BH4 (Tetrahydrobiopterin) will alleviate this as well. Decreasing ammonia via Citruline, supplementing with NADH, Royal Jelly and L-Carnitine will help maintain BH4 levels. Another, more expensive option, is supplemental BH4. Only one company makes a homepathic version, otherwise it's available via prescription call Kuvan.
Unlikely since BH4 isn't what's limiting in NT synthesis in this case and will be making it into the CNS in adequate amounts
 
Whacked

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Cool thread.....in.....
 

delpiero

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Solution: avoid supplemental bcaas (which are a waste of money under most circumstances anyhow) or simply add tyrosine/phenylalanine supps? /thread
 

delpiero

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On a side note, BCAAs wil also lower your serotonin in doses as low as 5 gms
 
Gutterpump

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I'm glad there are no acute impacts as feared. I am one of those people who flavor my water with BCAAs all day, just to make me drink more.
 

delpiero

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I'm glad there are no acute impacts as feared. I am one of those people who flavor my water with BCAAs all day, just to make me drink more.
There are. As little as 10 grams will lower both serotonin as dopamine
 
Gutterpump

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10 grams at once? Or 10 grams sipped over 5-6 hours? There would be a big difference I think (hope)
 
Gutterpump

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I'm also curious if this same effect is noticed when drinking a BCC / EAA blend. I mostly use MST RPG, which is a blend of BCAA's and EAA's.
 

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