Phosphatidic Acid - New Study 5+lbs in LBM - AnabolicMinds.com

Phosphatidic Acid - New Study 5+lbs in LBM

  1. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Phosphatidic Acid - New Study 5+lbs in LBM


    Soy PA = profit (in vitro)


    Phosphatidic acid enhances mTOR signaling and resistance exercise induced hypertrophy.

    Nutr Metab (Lond). 2014;11:29

    Authors: Joy JM, Gundermann DM, Lowery RP, Jäger R, McCleary SA, Purpura M, Roberts MD, Wilson SM, Hornberger TA, Wilson JM

    Abstract
    INTRODUCTION: The lipid messenger phosphatidic acid (PA) plays a critical role in the stimulation of mTOR signaling. However, the mechanism by which PA stimulates mTOR is currently unknown. Therefore, the purpose of this study was to compare the effects of various PA precursors and phospholipids on their ability to stimulate mTOR signaling and its ability to augment resistance training-induced changes in body composition and performance.
    METHODS: In phase one, C2C12 myoblasts cells were stimulated with different phospholipids and phospholipid precursors derived from soy and egg sources. The ratio of phosphorylated p70 (P-p70-389) to total p70 was then used as readout for mTOR signaling. In phase two, resistance trained subjects (n = 28, 21 ± 3 years, 77 ± 4 kg, 176 ± 9 cm) consumed either 750 mg PA daily or placebo and each took part in an 8 week periodized resistance training program.
    RESULTS: In phase one, soy-phosphatidylserine, soy-Lyso-PA, egg-PA, and soy-PA stimulated mTOR signaling, and the effects of soy-PA (+636%) were significantly greater than egg-PA (+221%). In phase two, PA significantly increased lean body mass (+2.4 kg), cross sectional area (+1.0 cm), and leg press strength (+51.9 kg) over placebo.
    CONCLUSION: PA significantly activates mTOR and significantly improved responses in skeletal muscle hypertrophy, lean body mass, and maximal strength to resistance exercise.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook


  2. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Dude, you're so late to the game, I posted this like weeks ago :P
  3. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Dude, you're so late to the game, I posted this like weeks ago :P
    Sorry it didn't come up in search. Also it was just put in the journal June 16th. How did you get it weeks in advance?
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

    •   
       

  4. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Sorry it didn't come up in search. Also it was just put in the journal June 16th. How did you get it weeks in advance?
    Dr. Stout posted the link to the provisional copy a few weeks back elsewhere I just can't post a link here to his post.
  5. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Dr. Stout posted the link to the provisional copy a few weeks back elsewhere I just can't post a link here to his post.
    I didn't realize this was another Tampa study. What did Stout have to do with it? Jacob Wilson usually posts this stuff in the ISSN fb group in advance.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

  6. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I didn't realize this was another Tampa study. What did Stout have to do with it? Jacob Wilson usually posts this stuff in the ISSN fb group in advance.
    Dr. Stout is pretty involved with PA actually. He had a Q&A on PA along with Wilson on the other site for the previous main PA product on the market prior to BPI King. The Joy study (which came out of the Tampa Wilson lab) basically is a replication of the findings in the Hoffman study from 2012.

    So when the provisional copy of the study was released a few weeks ago, Dr. Stout posted a link to it on the other site.
  7. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    I wish someone other than these guys would conduct a study on this and HMB. Their lab seems to always produce positive results with supps. It would go along way to see another lab validate.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

  8. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I wish someone other than these guys would conduct a study on this and HMB. Their lab seems to always produce positive results with supps. It would go along way to see another lab validate.
    Not really, Wilson has openly stated that he did conduct a study using a sedentary sample for PA and it resulted in: nada. He brought that data back to Chemi Nutra. It's not a published study though (don't think they even bothered to submit it to get published).

    I think this says a lot about the credibility of Wilson and his lab, seeing how the patent for PA that Chemi Nutra filed had a heavy inclusion in the patent for PA's use on sedentary and muscle wasting populations, unfortunately for Chemi Nutra, for PA to be effective it needs to be present whilst one actually exercises thus this would effectively strike out relevant use for sedentary and bed ridden populations.

    Let's also not forget that the studies that have recently been popularized coming out of Wilson's lab has essentially been his lab replicating the work of earlier studies (Kraemer's study for HMB-Ca, Hoffman's study for PA, and the Baylor study for ArA). The big change though is that Wilson is working with far more controls for variables and usually with more taxing training protocols (at least the HMB study uses a very taxing training protocol).

    If anything, Wilson's lab has been validating earlier work on HMB, PA, and ArA. What you're asking for is for someone to do another study to validate a study which validated another study. LoL. Which is fine and dandy but we can just do this validation thing forever basically. :P
  9. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Not really, Wilson has openly stated that he did conduct a study using a sedentary sample for PA and it resulted in: nada. He brought that data back to Chemi Nutra. It's not a published study though (don't think they even bothered to submit it to get published).

    I think this says a lot about the credibility of Wilson and his lab, seeing how the patent for PA that Chemi Nutra filed had a heavy inclusion in the patent for PA's use on sedentary and muscle wasting populations, unfortunately for Chemi Nutra, for PA to be effective it needs to be present whilst one actually exercises thus this would effectively strike out relevant use for sedentary and bed ridden populations.
    Not publishing (or even trying to) bad news adds credibility? You have a weird perspective.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

  10. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Not publishing (or even trying to) bad news adds credibility? You have a weird perspective.
    Yes it adds credibility. Because he came back with negative results and he has openly stated this. If one is operating under the assumption that Wilson is somehow in the pocket of the companies and fudging results, why would he not then fudge the results of the PA study on sedentary people? After all, that is FAR more lucrative than findings of athletic performance improvements. The world is mostly trying to cure diseases, not build a better bodybuilder. I think you're lacking perspective here.
  11. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Looks like Serinaid may have worked just as well.

    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

  12. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Yes it adds credibility. Because he came back with negative results and he has openly stated this. If one is operating under the assumption that Wilson is somehow in the pocket of the companies and fudging results, why would he not then fudge the results of the PA study on sedentary people? After all, that is FAR more lucrative than findings of athletic performance improvements. The world is mostly trying to cure diseases, not build a better bodybuilder. I think you're lacking perspective here.
    Who said anything about money?

    Any good lab would want their findings replicated.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

  13. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Who said anything about money?

    Any good lab would want their findings replicated.
    I'm speaking in the context of the various posts I have seen implying that somehow Wilson is fibbing all his studies. So if that is true, why would he be so open in stating that PA does nothing in the absence of training thus effectively demonstrating that one of the biggest points Chemi is trying to patent PA for being effectively a useless patent with no data to support it? If you look at the Chemi Nutra patent for PA, they emphasizing it to be effective for muscle wasting far more than they are emphasizing performance gains.

    Also, let's be honest here, you brought up wanting to see other labs replicate Wilson's lab results under the context that these are somehow the first time positive results were shown with these ingredients, but the fact is that Wilson's lab has mostly been replicating results of earlier research coming out of other labs.

    So regardless if you were implying the aforementioned first point or the second point or even both, it's pretty nonsensical if you think about it.
  14. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Looks like Serinaid may have worked just as well.

    I've noticed that as well. Both are pretty expensive as chit though, with PS being the most expensive at the doses being used.
  15. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    I'm speaking in the context of the various posts I have seen implying that somehow Wilson is fibbing all his studies. So if that is true, why would he be so open in stating that PA does nothing in the absence of training thus effectively demonstrating that one of the biggest points Chemi is trying to patent PA for being effectively a useless patent with no data to support it? If you look at the Chemi Nutra patent for PA, they emphasizing it to be effective for muscle wasting far more than they are emphasizing performance gains.

    Also, let's be honest here, you brought up wanting to see other labs replicate Wilson's lab results under the context that these are somehow the first time positive results were shown with these ingredients, but the fact is that Wilson's lab has mostly been replicating results of earlier research coming out of other labs.

    So regardless if you were implying the aforementioned first point or the second point or even both, it's pretty nonsensical if you think about it.
    I disagree. I've read the patent (did an entire show on it), it's moot now anyways. And I'm wasting time.
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

  16. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I disagree. I've read the patent (did an entire show on it), it's moot now anyways. And I'm wasting time.
    What exactly is there to disagree with?Were you:

    1) Implying that Wilson's study needs to be replicated in order to validate it as if this was some new finding even though what his lab has done for PA, HMB, and ArA have been replicating earlier studies from other labs?

    or

    2) Implying that Wilson's lab is somehow fibbing data just to show positive results, this which would make absolutely no sense because then why would they not fib data for the PA study done on sedentary people? You have clearly stated that you've done a whole show on the patent, so you should be intimately familiar with the fact that the patent places more emphasis on PA being of benefit to muscle wasting situations (basically as a treatment or part of treatment for individuals with serious health issues causing them to be prone to muscle wasting). Let's not forget that the company is Chemi-Nutra here, they are not exactly as invested in sports nutrition as they are in the longevity market.

    or

    3) Both 1 and 2.

    Right now it's like you're going with option 3 there but then you're also not committing to it. Oh well.

    If anything, the studies coming out of Wilson's lab has laid everything out for any other lab to be able to try to replicate, and the guy has been very responsive if one was to e-mail him and what not. It would be mighty stupid to start making stuff up AND making it so easy for another lab to try to replicate your work.
  17. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Back on track though, I think the PS also hydrolyzes to LPA which extracellular PA is theorized to possibly be doing as well, this should act on ERK which should then eventually signal mTOR.

    I'm not a chemist or biochemist or anything of the sort, but is it possible to supplement with LPA if LPA is what is ultimately the trigger for the cascade here? Or is it a case where LPA will never make it into circulation through oral administration or that we don't have a source for LPA.
  18. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,851
    Rep Power
    2179971

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I wish someone other than these guys would conduct a study on this and HMB. Their lab seems to always produce positive results with supps. It would go along way to see another lab validate.
    @Royd The Noyd

    What is the connection between Wilson's Lab and the lab at UCF?
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  19. Board Sponsor
    Royd The Noyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    5,235
    Rep Power
    624367

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    @Royd The Noyd

    What is the connection between Wilson's Lab and the lab at UCF?
    I'm not sure.

    It reminded me of an article I wrote last year though. And even a year ago I mention the quality of the labs producing the research. But I guess I'm a hater...

    http://www.*************/articles/at...phatidic-acid/
    ForeRunner Labs
    The Future of Human Performance
    Please LIKE FRL on Facebook

  20. Professional Member
    kissdadookie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  169 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    3,004
    Rep Power
    2215676

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I'm not sure.

    It reminded me of an article I wrote last year though. And even a year ago I mention the quality of the labs producing the research. But I guess I'm a hater...

    http://www.*************/articles/at...phatidic-acid/
    Your post earlier made you sound that way :P If not, my apologies.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Phosphatidic acid in new Cutler supp?
    By The Engineer in forum Supplements
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 05-30-2014, 07:39 PM
  2. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-13-2010, 01:50 PM
  3. Replies: 427
    Last Post: 09-10-2009, 06:28 AM
  4. New study finds aspartame carcinogenic in small amounts
    By stream187 in forum News and Articles
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-17-2005, 08:47 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in