New Phosphatidic Acid Research Paper (provisional)

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    New Phosphatidic Acid Research Paper (provisional)


    http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...7075-11-29.pdf

    This is the Wilson study that is essentially trying to replicate and improve the Hoffman study on PA.

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    not to be a debbie downer but hasnt this article been out for weeks, I knew wilson did research on PA a few months back when t-nation released a product on it and he was answering questions in the forums
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    Quote Originally Posted by braskibra View Post
    not to be a debbie downer but hasnt this article been out for weeks, I knew wilson did research on PA a few months back when t-nation released a product on it and he was answering questions in the forums
    The poster presentation has been circulating for ages. This is the full text for the study in the poster presentation. It's provisional so the actual study is more or less nearing publication at this point.
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    I think PA really may work, but Wilson really has a reputation for getting "unbelieveable" results, and this is no exception. Over 5 lbs extra LBM in pre-trained males in an 8 week period over placebo. That's 0.5 lbms of LBM a week or over 26 lbs of LBM a year in already trained people. That's REALLY hard to believe. Same goes for strength, a 100 lb increase in leg press despite BW only going up about 2 lbs? Like I said, I do think PA works, but where Wilson's results are concerned, I think we see a gross exaggeration of effects across the board
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    Name:  download (59).jpg
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    He more or less replicated results from another lab - http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/47 - so while I understand Wilson's rep, I am not sure we can use that to discount his findings since this was a follow up study of someone elses work where the results from both labs were pretty similar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    He more or less replicated results from another lab - JISSN | Full text | Efficacy of phosphatidic acid ingestion on lean body mass, muscle thickness and strength gains in resistance-trained men - so while I understand Wilson's rep, I am not sure we can use that to discount his findings since this was a follow up study of someone elses work where the results from both labs were pretty similar.
    Even still, these effects are about on par with 500mg of testosterone weekly in terms of rate of LBM gain (Development of models to predict anabolic response to testosterone administration in healthy young men | Endocrinology and Metabolism). Do you really think PA is as effective as supraphysiological doses of steroids? Me thinks if it was this good, we've solved muscle wasting disease forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Even still, these effects are about on par with 500mg of testosterone weekly in terms of rate of LBM gain (Development of models to predict anabolic response to testosterone administration in healthy young men | Endocrinology and Metabolism). Do you really think PA is as effective as supraphysiological doses of steroids? Me thinks if it was this good, we've solved muscle wasting disease forever
    Wouldn't the extreme training protocol he's been using be a major factor here though? Imagine a study pairing that training protocol with exogenous testosterone supplementation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Wouldn't the extreme training protocol he's been using be a major factor here though? Imagine a study pairing that training protocol with exogenous testosterone supplementation...
    That's really a reach there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapsin View Post
    That's really a reach there.
    I don't think comparing previous testosterone studies and what not with the recent studies coming out of Wilson's lab makes much sense since the training protocols used are quite different. I would like to see other labs use the same training protocol TBH, just to see how large of a variable it truly is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    I don't think comparing previous testosterone studies and what not with the recent studies coming out of Wilson's lab makes much sense since the training protocols used are quite different. I would like to see other labs use the same training protocol TBH, just to see how large of a variable it truly is.
    I absolutely refuse to believe a change in training protocol leads to this much benefit to individuals who are already past intermediate levels of training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    I don't think comparing previous testosterone studies and what not with the recent studies coming out of Wilson's lab makes much sense since the training protocols used are quite different. I would like to see other labs use the same training protocol TBH, just to see how large of a variable it truly is.
    I think you need to re-evaluate exercise science KDD. Intense and more =/= better. In fact, I'd expect more from a normal training protocol and PA in a non-chemically enhanced athlete than an overreaching protocol + PA. PA clearly works through mTOR, and overreaching protocols stimulate mTOR perhaps a little more than normal protocols, but they amplify AMPK to a MUCH greater degree via both energy expenditure and glycogen depletion
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    Wouldn't the extreme training protocol he's been using be a major factor here though? Imagine a study pairing that training protocol with exogenous testosterone supplementation...
    Why do you feel extreme training with any supplement builds muscle aside for the magical HMB study? it's a bit backwards in thought...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I think you need to re-evaluate exercise science KDD. Intense and more =/= better. In fact, I'd expect more from a normal training protocol and PA in a non-chemically enhanced athlete than an overreaching protocol + PA. PA clearly works through mTOR, and overreaching protocols stimulate mTOR perhaps a little more than normal protocols, but they amplify AMPK to a MUCH greater degree via both energy expenditure and glycogen depletion
    I was thinking more in line with a well trained individual, not regular Joe shmoe. Mainly in terms of the required training stimuli for a well trained individual being different than a novice trainee. I think there was a Finnish study which lasted 2 years IIRC that looked at how changing out the training periodically resulted in significant increases in gains each time the training was switched up (more or less proper periodization rather than typical progressive overload). I wasn't suggesting that the training protocol is a miracle cure all for all individuals but it would appear likely that for a well trained individual that is highly adapted to training, drastically increasing the intensity should counter their adaptation to damage from exercise.

    Not suggesting that PA requires drastic training to produce results, we already know from the earlier Hoffman (?) study that this isn't required. Also keeping in mind that the Joy study which is linked to in the first post of this thread, wasn't the extreme HMB training protocol, but it was a daily undulating periodization scheme. The Hoffman study essentially used a typical progressive overload scheme.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kissdadookie View Post
    I was thinking more in line with a well trained individual, not regular Joe shmoe. Mainly in terms of the required training stimuli for a well trained individual being different than a novice trainee. I think there was a Finnish study which lasted 2 years IIRC that looked at how changing out the training periodically resulted in significant increases in gains each time the training was switched up (more or less proper periodization rather than typical progressive overload). I wasn't suggesting that the training protocol is a miracle cure all for all individuals but it would appear likely that for a well trained individual that is highly adapted to training, drastically increasing the intensity should counter their adaptation to damage from exercise.

    Not suggesting that PA requires drastic training to produce results, we already know from the earlier Hoffman (?) study that this isn't required. Also keeping in mind that the Joy study which is linked to in the first post of this thread, wasn't the extreme HMB training protocol, but it was a daily undulating periodization scheme. The Hoffman study essentially used a typical progressive overload scheme.
    I'm still not seeing how either of these can produce the kind of LBM gains the study found. Regardless of how you train, there are limits to rate of LBM gain, especially when trained
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    Quote Originally Posted by SauceMonkey22 View Post
    lmao, meme of the week
    Just need to toss a lab coat in there and g2g.
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