Citrulline Does Not Increase Blood Flow or Protein Synthes

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    Citrulline Does Not Increase Blood Flow or Protein Synthes


    New paper from Stu Phillips lab.


    Citrulline does not enhance blood flow, microvascular circulation, or myofibrillar protein synthesis in elderly men at rest or following exercise
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    Abstract

    Ageing is associated with anabolic resistance; a reduced sensitivity of myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS) to postprandial hyperaminoacidemia, particularly with low protein doses. Impairments in postprandial skeletal muscle blood flow and/or microvascular perfusion with hyperaminoacidemia and hyperinsulinemia may contribute to anabolic resistance. We examined whether providing citrulline, a precursor for arginine and nitric oxide synthesis, would increase arterial blood flow, skeletal muscle microvascular perfusion, MPS, and signalling through mTORC1. Twenty one elderly males (65-80 y) completed acute unilateral resistance exercise prior to being assigned to ingest a: high dose (45g) of whey protein (WHEY), or a low dose (15g) of whey protein with 10g of citrulline (WHEY+CIT), or with 10g of non-essential amino acids (WHEY+NEAA). A primed continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6] phenylalanine with serial muscle biopsies was used to measure MPS and protein phosphorylation, while ultrasound was used to measure microvascular circulation under basal and postprandial conditions in both a rested (FED) and exercised (EX-FED) leg. Argininemia was greater in WHEY+CIT vs. WHEY and WHEY+NEAA from 30-300 min post-exercise (P<0.001), but there were no treatment differences in blood flow, or microvascular perfusion (all P>0.05). Phosphorylation of p70S6kThr389 was greater in WHEY vs. WHEY+NEAA (P=0.02). Postprandial MPS was greater in WHEY vs. WHEY+CIT and WHEY+NEAA under both FED (WHEY: ~128%; WHEY+CIT: ~56%; WHEY+NEAA: ~38%) and EX-FED (WHEY: ~251%; WHEY+CIT: ~124%; WHEY+NEAA: ~108%) conditions (P=0.003). Citrulline co-ingestion with a low quantity of protein was ineffective in augmenting the anabolic properties of protein compared to non-essential amino acids.
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    Nice find. The MPS data is no surprise given the magnitude of the whey alone bolus, but I'm surprised NO was not increased despite the increase in arginine. Prior data does indeed show an NO increase. Perhaps,

    1. The elderly population lacks sufficient NOS activity to compensate for the increase in arginine. Although more likely is the finding that arginase levels increase with age.

    2. Exercise (following ingestion, not prior to) is a pre-requisite for activation of eNOS to the magnitude that would significantly increase NO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Nice find. The MPS data is no surprise given the magnitude of the whey alone bolus, but I'm surprised NO was not increased despite the increase in arginine. Prior data does indeed show an NO increase. Perhaps,

    1. The elderly population lacks sufficient NOS activity to compensate for the increase in arginine. Although more likely is the finding that arginase levels increase with age.

    2. Exercise (following ingestion, not prior to) is a pre-requisite for activation of eNOS to the magnitude that would significantly increase NO.
    I'm surprised they used old vs. Young subjects. That's unlike McMasters. I think your #1 is supported with animal research.
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    I bought my 65 year old father a gym membership and take him to work out. I give him some citrulline and nitrates before we go the gym. Guess the citrulline is a waste of time then?
    phaggy opinions+certainty=douchebag status
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    Like I give him 1 gram potassium nitrate, 500 mg agmatine, 500 mg NAC, 200 mg caffeine, and 200 mg vitamin C one hour before I take him and then I give him a BCAA drink with 4 grams citrulline when we get there so like 15-20 minutes before he starts working out. He drinks it in the car and then he stretches/warms up for 20 minutes before he lifts
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    Thanks for posting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Nice find. The MPS data is no surprise given the magnitude of the whey alone bolus, but I'm surprised NO was not increased despite the increase in arginine. Prior data does indeed show an NO increase. Perhaps, 1. The elderly population lacks sufficient NOS activity to compensate for the increase in arginine. Although more likely is the finding that arginase levels increase with age. 2. Exercise (following ingestion, not prior to) is a pre-requisite for activation of eNOS to the magnitude that would significantly increase NO.
    This due to formation of AGE?
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    So citrulline is a waste? Was going to get High volume, it as 5g l-citrulline, but if it does not have any pump or endurance effect I skip it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pec.Major View Post
    So citrulline is a waste? Was going to get High volume, it as 5g l-citrulline, but if it does not have any pump or endurance effect I skip it.
    It could have muscle protective properties IIRC which turns the odds in your favour for better recovery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pec.Major View Post
    So citrulline is a waste? Was going to get High volume, it as 5g l-citrulline, but if it does not have any pump or endurance effect I skip it.
    lol...don't over extrapolate. It is a waste if you are an elderly person looking to enhance bloodflow

    It will be pretty impossible to try to tell someone a 5g dose of L-citrulline didnt give them a sick pump compared to when they don't take it.

    If you are a middle aged man, you will be better off: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21067832

    There is also a number of studies on L-citrulline-malate (not the same citrulline malate that is sold today) for its performance benefits and other benefits that fit the fitness industry:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20499249

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386132

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21908948 (animal)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195829 (non-elderly)

    There are more...but...that should suffice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pec.Major View Post
    So citrulline is a waste? Was going to get High volume, it as 5g l-citrulline, but if it does not have any pump or endurance effect I skip it.
    I'd advise re-reading this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Nice find. The MPS data is no surprise given the magnitude of the whey alone bolus, but I'm surprised NO was not increased despite the increase in arginine. Prior data does indeed show an NO increase. Perhaps,1. The elderly population lacks sufficient NOS activity to compensate for the increase in arginine. Although more likely is the finding that arginase levels increase with age.2. Exercise (following ingestion, not prior to) is a pre-requisite for activation of eNOS to the magnitude that would significantly increase NO.
    Since pretty much every other citrulline study shows benefits, the reason for this study's conclusion is clearly due to something in the methodology. As I stated, they consumed the citrulline postworkout. High volume is a preworkout, and all the preworkout studies demonstrated benefit...which should be the obvious way to take it anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    lol...don't over extrapolate. It is a waste if you are an elderly person looking to enhance bloodflowIt will be pretty impossible to try to tell someone a 5g dose of L-citrulline didnt give them a sick pump compared to when they don't take it. If you are a middle aged man, you will be better off: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21067832There is also a number of studies on L-citrulline-malate (not the same citrulline malate that is sold today) for its performance benefits and other benefits that fit the fitness industry:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20499249http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386132http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21908948 (animal)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21195829 (non-elderly)There are more...but...that should suffice
    Great, I have always felt an increase in pump when dosing 10g citrulline malate. Will get some high volume then.
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I'd advise re-reading this post:Since pretty much every other citrulline study shows benefits, the reason for this study's conclusion is clearly due to something in the methodology. As I stated, they consumed the citrulline postworkout. High volume is a preworkout, and all the preworkout studies demonstrated benefit...which should be the obvious way to take it anyway.
    Missed your post. thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pec.Major View Post
    Great, I have always felt an increase in pump when dosing 10g citrulline malate. Will get some high volume then. Missed your post. thank you.
    Good decision
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    Egh


    Citrulline stimulates muscle protein synthesis in the post-absorptive state in healthy people fed a low-protein diet - A pilot study.

    Clin Nutr. 2014 May 4;

    Authors: Jourdan M, Nair KS, Carter RE, Schimke J, Ford GC, Marc J, Aussel C, Cynober L

    Abstract
    BACKGROUND & AIMS: Amino acid (AA) availability is critical to maintain protein homeostasis and reduced protein intake causes a decline in protein synthesis. Citrulline, an amino acid metabolite, has been reported to stimulate muscle protein synthesis in malnourished rats.
    METHODS: To determine whether citrulline stimulates muscle protein synthesis in healthy adults while on a low-protein diet, we studied 8 healthy participants twice in a cross-over study design. Following a 3-days of low-protein intake, either citrulline or a non-essential AA mixture (NEAA) was given orally as small boluses over the course of 8 h. [ring-(13)C6] phenylalanine and [(15)N] tyrosine were administered as tracers to assess protein metabolism. Fractional synthesis rates (FSR) of muscle proteins were measured using phenylalanine enrichment in muscle tissue fluid as the precursor pool.
    RESULTS: FSR of mixed muscle protein was higher during the administration of citrulline than during NEAA (NEAA: 0.049 0.005; citrulline: 0.060 0.006; P = 0.03), while muscle mitochondrial protein FSR and whole-body protein turnover were not different between the studies. Citrulline administration increased arginine and ornithine plasma concentrations without any effect on glucose, insulin, C-peptide, and IGF-1 levels. Citrulline administration did not promote mitochondria protein synthesis, transcripts, or citrate synthesis.
    CONCLUSIONS: Citrulline ingestion enhances mixed muscle protein synthesis in healthy participants on 3-day low-protein intake. This anabolic action of citrulline appears to be independent of insulin action and may offer potential clinical application in conditions involving low amino acid intake.
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    Is that enhancement likely specific to the scenario of otherwise low protein intake, or should/could it also be of benefit in times if adequate/high intake?
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    That diet wasn't that low protein, it was roughly 50g which is the RDA. I would have thought a regular group of researchers would consider that a normal protein intake.

    But it looks like citrulline was probably acting through mTOR. Which is in line with the rat studies on citrulline, showing an effect similar to leucine. Regardless, I don't think I'd change how I dose citrulline to try to manipulate this effect. Preworkout is still the way to go
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    That diet wasn't that low protein, it was roughly 50g which is the RDA. I would have thought a regular group of researchers would consider that a normal protein intake.
    interesting viewpoint
    honest question for you, I am curious: do you really consider RDA values to be a semblance of any reality? and do researchers embrace this stance as well, as you infer? srs question..this would help me understand a bit further how you view things and assess some of these studies..
    I mean, the " standard" RDA you call normal here, is simply the barest minimum amount in order to prevent sickness & illness from malnutrition, things like avoiding rickets and scurvy...if that is not considered low, I do not know what is
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    interesting viewpoint
    honest question for you, I am curious: do you really consider RDA values to be a semblance of any reality? and do researchers embrace this stance as well, as you infer? srs question..this would help me understand a bit further how you view things and assess some of these studies..
    I mean, the " standard" RDA you call normal here, is simply the barest minimum amount in order to prevent sickness & illness from malnutrition, things like avoiding rickets and scurvy...if that is not considered low, I do not know what is
    He's just clarifying the abstract (which doesn't define "low protein"). Calm down bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Calm down bro.
    whoa....do I seem upset to you? I actually went out of my way to be clear that I was asking for simple clarification on his view point
    if that post there makes you think I have angst or am upset, then gawd forbid you see some of my other posts....
    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    whoa....do I seem upset to you? I actually went out of my way to be clear that I was asking for simple clarification on his view point
    if that post there makes you think I have angst or am upset, then gawd forbid you see some of my other posts....
    lol
    U mad
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    interesting viewpoint
    honest question for you, I am curious: do you really consider RDA values to be a semblance of any reality? and do researchers embrace this stance as well, as you infer? srs question..this would help me understand a bit further how you view things and assess some of these studies..
    I mean, the " standard" RDA you call normal here, is simply the barest minimum amount in order to prevent sickness & illness from malnutrition, things like avoiding rickets and scurvy...if that is not considered low, I do not know what is
    No, I obviously don't think this lol. But the mainstream does
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    Angry


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    Quote Originally Posted by underweight View Post
    The powers that be make the most money from fat and out of shape people!
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    Quote Originally Posted by underweight View Post
    The powers that be make the most money from fat and out of shape people!
    but what about the scrawny and underweight people?
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    but what about the scrawny and underweight people?
    Depends on what kinda weight they're under
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    Is 6grams of L citruline is the correct clinicaly dose?
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    Quote Originally Posted by paula View Post
    Is 6grams of L citruline is the correct clinicaly dose?
    Study used 8 grams cit mal so 4-5.5 grams citrulline depending on their percentage used. Cit mal is usually 1:1 or 2:1 citrulline to malate I think
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    As little as 3g pure citrulline has been used to positive effect
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    As little as 3g pure citrulline has been used to positive effect
    So the amazing amazingly taste of High Volume is where it's at? .
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbayne View Post
    So the amazing amazingly taste of High Volume is where it's at? .


    Name:  image-262518096.jpg
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    And then some
    Lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driven2lift View Post
    Name:  image-262518096.jpg
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    And then some
    Lol
    Original flavors are good. New flavors, just aren't fair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post
    Original flavors are good. New flavors, just aren't fair
    Lol find yourself sneaking extra scoops just for the taste factor?
    Be careful not to over-pump those muscles :P
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