Best Joint/Tendon Supplement on the market?

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  1. To many deleted posts- I dont know who said what. Ha

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  2. iForce Joint Help has done more for my chronic elbow tendonitis than any other joint product on the market. Although for immediate relief I do like Joint Force, while Joint Help keeps it away. Fish Oil is a very nice addition as well for the anti-inflammatory effects.
    Last edited by laneanders; 08-19-2013 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Looked like posts were deleted, apparently I'm just crazy.
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  3. Perhaps I'm missing something, but as a mod in this section, I don't see a single deleted post in this thread

  4. Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post
    1. What the hell is corrosion levels? 2. This is anecdotal feedback.
    Sorry,I was posting on my cell....auto select is a PITA.

    It should read read as cortisol and not corrosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Did you even read my post? Cissus doesn't reduce cortisol, lmfao.
    Yes,I read your post.

    Cissus does in fact lower cortisol levels.There have been lengthy threads on this over on mindandmuscle and I'm quite sure that doing a query on Pubmed would indicate my statement to be true.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Perhaps I'm missing something, but as a mod in this section, I don't see a single deleted post in this thread
    Colibs post at 1:12pm and then your post that followed

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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Sorry,I was posting on my cell....auto select is a PITA.

    It should read read as cortisol and not corrosion.



    Yes,I read your post.

    Cissus does in fact lower cortisol levels.There have been lengthy threads on this over on mindandmuscle and I'm quite sure that doing a query on Pubmed would indicate my statement to be true.
    This is laughable..you are making a statement and think we'll just leave it at that. "Cissus does lower cortisol, trust me, someone said it on a forum!" No evidence exists, and I've read everything there is to read about cissus. This is your chance to prove me wrong and post a study. *silence*

  7. Regardless I wouldnt use Cissus for any other purpose than joint/tendon issues. If I need a cortisol product I will go with Reduce xt and if I need a fat burning product then I will choose a product which the primarily function is fat burning

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  8. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    MSM needn't be dosed so high.

    Any triglyceride fish oil is protected from oxidation.

    Cissus does not have a single study showing it reduces cortisol. It is a glucocorticoid antagonist in bone tissue, which means that it reduces resorption and helps bones heal.

    Conversely, glucosamine and chondroitin have no good data demonstrating efficacy. This is the science section, meaning we are seeking to provide evidence-based suggestions, not the exact opposite.
    If you look over the meta analysis studies on glocosamine and choindroiton they,overall,indicate that the two are of some benefit and show promise.In the same breath,quite a few studies on either compound showed negligible results although I belive there is enough evidence to warrant their usage in athletes.

    I did note that the original poster would see the most out of MSM as that is the big player of the 3.

    It has been a while since I've looked into the research on cissus but I strongly remember USPLabs hyping it us something that lowered cortisol,good for bones tec...not that USPLabs does not have a liberal take on promoting their line.....Groan.

    I did a search on Pubmed under and you are correct,I found nothing.My recollection was based on LLiorh's coments in this thread,which mirrors my experience with cissus.Call it n=1 (or n=2) but there is some interesting science driven discussion to be read here:

    http://mindandmuscle.net/forum/21763...abolc-syndrome

  9. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Cissus does not have a single study showing it reduces cortisol. It is a glucocorticoid antagonist in bone tissue, which means that it reduces resorption and helps bones heal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Sorry,I was posting on my cell....auto select is a PITA.

    It should read read as cortisol and not corrosion.



    Yes,I read your post.

    Cissus does in fact lower cortisol levels.There have been lengthy threads on this over on mindandmuscle and I'm quite sure that doing a query on Pubmed would indicate my statement to be true.
    I knew what you meant I was giving you a hard time but that is still just somebodies anecdotal feedback, he does not actually know if it lowered his cortisol levels as he is only speculating. Read the quoted post above yours.

  10. As I have said,I have conceded that I was mistaken.

    I have posted a link to multiple studies on cissus.

    The one hit that I got off of Pubmed for cissus + cortisol was an abstract (with free full text) showing that cissus has some anti-histamine properties,which would not be good for the FED state as anti-histamines tend to increase hunger.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?...laris+cortisol

    I saw no mention of cortisol anywhere in the full text so as I said in my last post,I have conceded your point and I was simply mistaken.



    I found your tone to be condescending and honestly,kind of dick-ish but my hat is off to you for your tenacity and willingness to participate in intelligent discussion.

    One last bit of "anecdotal feedback" ...hehehe....regarding MSM.Marc McDougal of FitPort,published authour who knows his stuff,has stated that higher dosages of MSM can be used while rehabbing from an injury and such dosages are at least quadruple the amounts usually used.As you also noted,it plays a big part in relieving soreness,which in turn will allow one to hasten recovery through being able to exercise (rehab,that is) more frequently.

    Cheers,mate.

  11. @mr.cooper69

    Is it possible to stimulate cartilage growth (for the lack of a better word)? Medical procedures and/or supplementation? Have any legitimate compounds shown this ability?
    EvoMuse

  12. Quote Originally Posted by xhrr View Post
    Have a lot of problems with patellar tendonitis. First MRI just showed inflammation and now I'm getting a second after a cortisone shot did nothing. In the mean time what would you consider the best supplement for joint health, singular ingredient or comprehensive supplement? Looking to take something to help and be preventative in the future.

    I ice, use a rehband compression sleeve, foam roll, attend PT, and use ibuprofen at the moment as advised by the ortho but he had no idea on joint/tendon supplements and was wondering if any were worth while in some of the smarter individuals opinions. I have very limited knowledge in this area besides what the talking head of a doctor has told me for the last year while providing zero relief.

    I'm guessing my next step is synvisc or surgery in the near future after the MRI.
    Sorry if I missed it in the thread but how long have you had this issue? I have elbow tendonitis (started in December) and is just now really starting to get back to normal. I tried just about everything to make it better ice, aspirin, cissus, fish oil, stretching, elbow wraps, wrist braces, etc... Cissus and fish oil seem to help but I had to stop doing anything that hurt before I finally got to the point this passed month where I can actually do curls and tricep extensions again with decent weight.
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    @mr.cooper69

    Is it possible to stimulate cartilage growth (for the lack of a better word)? Medical procedures and/or supplementation? Have any legitimate compounds shown this ability?
    Definitely

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mtinsideout View Post
    Sorry if I missed it in the thread but how long have you had this issue? I have elbow tendonitis (started in December) and is just now really starting to get back to normal. I tried just about everything to make it better ice, aspirin, cissus, fish oil, stretching, elbow wraps, wrist braces, etc... Cissus and fish oil seem to help but I had to stop doing anything that hurt before I finally got to the point this passed month where I can actually do curls and tricep extensions again with decent weight.
    Elbow tendonitis is no fun at all and can certainly take MONTHS to fully recover from. Cissus will definitely help the process, but staying away from exercises that aggravate the condition is highly recommended.
    About 6 years ago I had elbow tendonitis for about 9 months so I know your pain and frustration

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  15. Quote Originally Posted by mtinsideout View Post
    Sorry if I missed it in the thread but how long have you had this issue? I have elbow tendonitis (started in December) and is just now really starting to get back to normal. I tried just about everything to make it better ice, aspirin, cissus, fish oil, stretching, elbow wraps, wrist braces, etc... Cissus and fish oil seem to help but I had to stop doing anything that hurt before I finally got to the point this passed month where I can actually do curls and tricep extensions again with decent weight.
    12+ months now. MRI follow up tomorrow so hopefully I'll get some answers. I was on prescription PK for two months and no lower body exercise except what I did at PT and it came right back after returning to activity. Cortisone shot did nothing so well see what the doctor says tomorrow. I'm pretty sure surgery is in my future.

  16. Solgar® No 7
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    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

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  17. I put my daughter on Flexible Joint Formula after her second ACL surgery for several months straight. It made a big difference with the stiffness and soreness - especially the night and day after PT. The graft they used the second go round was the patellar tendon. She will from time to get flair ups with/or around her patellar so she starts taking Flexible again and it seems to clear things up.
  18. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    Spaniard's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    @mr.cooper69

    Is it possible to stimulate cartilage growth (for the lack of a better word)? Medical procedures and/or supplementation? Have any legitimate compounds shown this ability?
    I haven't looked too much into it but remember reading that10g of supplemental collagen has been theorized as being able to increase endogenous synthesis
    Founder & Owner
    Aspire. Train. Perform. Nutrition
    "More than a supplement company."

  19. I use NeoCell Type I and III collagen and it definitely makes a difference in both my joints and skin. You have to take it on an empty stomach though.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    I haven't looked too much into it but remember reading that10g of supplemental collagen has been theorized as being able to increase endogenous synthesis
    In the elderly. Biosynthesis shouldn't be compromised in the young

  21. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    In the elderly. Biosynthesis shouldn't be compromised in the young

    I'll pretend that wasn't directed at me...whippersnapper! My joints get a fair amount of abuse from 20 years of lifting and basically walking/hiking for a living. Here's some of the studies that turned me on to collagen. After a week or two of use, I noticed I was sleeping more comfortably without the usual aches and pains and with continued use I just feel less rickety.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18416885

    http://www.ergo-log.com/collagensupplements.html

  22. Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    I'll pretend that wasn't directed at me...whippersnapper! My joints get a fair amount of abuse from 20 years of lifting and basically walking/hiking for a living. Here's some of the studies that turned me on to collagen. After a week or two of use, I noticed I was sleeping more comfortably without the usual aches and pains and with continued use I just feel less rickety.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18416885

    http://www.ergo-log.com/collagensupplements.html
    Great study. It seems it is useful in people with high collagen degradation rates for which biosynthesis cannot compensate fast enough
  23. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    Spaniard's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    I'll pretend that wasn't directed at me...whippersnapper! My joints get a fair amount of abuse from 20 years of lifting and basically walking/hiking for a living. Here's some of the studies that turned me on to collagen. After a week or two of use, I noticed I was sleeping more comfortably without the usual aches and pains and with continued use I just feel less rickety.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18416885

    http://www.ergo-log.com/collagensupplements.html
    Thanks brotha man! Good info!!
    Founder & Owner
    Aspire. Train. Perform. Nutrition
    "More than a supplement company."

  24. Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    I'll pretend that wasn't directed at me...whippersnapper! My joints get a fair amount of abuse from 20 years of lifting and basically walking/hiking for a living. Here's some of the studies that turned me on to collagen. After a week or two of use, I noticed I was sleeping more comfortably without the usual aches and pains and with continued use I just feel less rickety.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18416885

    http://www.ergo-log.com/collagensupplements.html

    Thanks for posting that study.I was at CVS a couple days ago and happened upon a bottle of I picked up bulk powder Neo cell branded type 1 & 3 collagen for $17.

    250+ grams seemed like a low enough price point to give it a shot for a few months,10 grams a day would be alright.I'm fairly sure that online bulk providers would have it cheaper.

    On the other hand.....I just saw this.
    I have only read the abstract of this study below,haven't looked at the full text yet,but it doesn't look promising for oral collagen supplementation via bovine sources to be of any real merit in humans.

    Bollocks....

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23342047

  25. Great post though I am somewhat suspicious of this statement in the abstract;

    "To investigate the metabolism of human femoral OA cartilage, explants were obtained during knee replacement surgery. Collagen synthesis of explants as modulated by 0-10 mg/ml collagen hydrolysates was determined using a novel dual radiolabeling procedure. Proteoglycans, NO, PGE(2), MMP-1, -3, -13, TIMP-1, collagen type II, and cell viability were determined in explant cultures."

    Not having any familiarity with their "novel dual radio labeling procedure" is my first concern..ie is it an established method for measuring collagen synthesis or is this its trial run? Secondly, they don't outline how collagen was supplemented and what those protocols were so that makes me wonder how well they controlled for variables. From what I've read and done myself, taking the collagen on an empty stomach is critical to absorption/effectiveness.

    Also, you can find NeoCell for about $10 a tub online...so at least it's a cheap experiment.

    Like a lot of people on this site, I've learned to take both the science and the anecdotal reports with a grain of salt. For this supplement, there are some decent indications in the literature to support its use, but there is always negative data. On the anecdotal end, I like to treat large numbers of customer reviews as a potential data point. 1200+ reviews on one site alone averaging 4.5 out of 5 stars would seem to be relevant on some level.

    IMO, a supplement of this nature is going to vary widely in its effectiveness in our particular demographic. You're either collagen deficient/old/rickety or you are not so that will have some bearing on it's effectiveness, perceived or otherwise.

  26. Late to the party. I am surprised that that xhrr didn't have any success with JointForce. I have used it with great success with similar issues. When you used it did you use it twice per day and did you wrap it with plastic as directed. That truly does help with its effectiveness.

    We do have the science to back it up. The active ingredients in JointForce

    Zingerone - A potent anti inflamatory Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor activa... [J Med Food. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

    Beta-Androstenetriol 3-Acetate (DHEA Metabolite

    Antiglucocorticoid function of andr... [Psychoneuroendocrinology. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

    N-Acetylhydroxyproline:

    Topical effects of N-acetyl-L-hydroxyproline on ceramide synthesis and alleviation of pruritus

    Adensosine Triacetate

    Adenosine, an endogenous anti-inflamma... [J Appl Physiol (1985). 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

    Methylsulfonylmethane :

    Efficacy of methylsulfonylmethane ... [BMC Complement Altern Med. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

    UridineTriacetate

    Anti-inflammatory effects of exogenous uridine in an animal model of lung inflammation. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

    I don't think you'll find a more potent stack of anti inflammatories in one product.

    It offers immediate relief(the Menthol and Zingerone) as well as the ability to help heal the injury via its anti inflammatory action through continued use
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  27. Looks like I'm late to the party as well. I have a ton of experience on this topic. I had severe patellar tendonitis in college, which eventually led to a full tear. This first time I tore the tendon was playing football... then a year later after some intense rehab and getting back to 90% strength I tore it almost to the day playing basketball. Whatever you do... do not do any more cortisone injections. I had four over the course of two years, and I believe that this is what ultimately led to the first tear. None of the joint/tendon supplements listed above will do anything for tendonitis in your patella tendon, I know, I've used all of them. For while the only thing that would help were good old fashioned ice and rest. However, I have found a few things that have help me recover from both tears, and I'm back to about 95% capacity athletically. The first is platelet injections. They are about $500 per shot, but it's amazing the relief they can provide on your tendonitis. After my first shot I went from moderate/severe pain, to no pain whatsoever. You may only need one depending on how bad your knee currently is. The second are plasma injections. These are much more expensive (2k-3k) but have much longer lasting effects than the platelet injections. The great thing about both these options, is that you are using your own compounds from your body to heal... not some foreign concoction filtered in a lab. The only other option to achieve "actual" tendon regeneration is growth hormone. Not the oral growth hormone crap either, only the injectable will work. Other than that all these joint supplements do nothing for patellar tendonitis, they are meant to lubricate joints... not tendon repair. What you currently have are hundreds of little microtears in your tendon that cause the tendonitis. Rest and ice are first and foremost... but if you're stubborn like me please avoid the cortisone, and look into platelet, or plasma injection.
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