Coop, De__eB, Josh, Jiggz...or anyone of that caliber...

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I think we're rapidly losing physiological relevance here. Does anyone have kinetic/dynamic data on ketogenic acid oral administration?
    I feel like if you don't know/can't find any full text articles, we'll all be waiting for PA.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Subd for more info. Definitely a novel concept.
    Oh hai! I thought maybe you forgot your sign in info.
    RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
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  3. I am subbed as well.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    Anyway, my understanding of the product is it is not something meant to be used daily or frequently. Isnt it meant more to be used for just a couple days to help transition you into ketosis faster and than you discontinue use? Perhaps after a refeed of one is doing a CKD approach?

    That would be my interest, in using it that way. I'm not sure its actually worth the price tag right now though.....

  5. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    That would be my interest, in using it that way. I'm not sure its actually worth the price tag right now though.....
    My understanding however is that it is a caloric energy source that is Glucose-less, alas in the form of Ketones...so maybe a "Pick-me-up" of energy that will NOT kick you out of ketosis. At least that is the understanding I got, since it is not glucose then oxygen consumption will go down (hence the ergogenic effect), and thus if it is significant enough it could help increase performance. Again...I'm not an expert.

    Questions would be (if used for fatloss), if it's a caloric source...can it be stored as fat? What are the benefits of it concerning fat oxidation, or does it help fat oxidation directly, rather than delaying exhaustion time to help fat oxidation via prolonged exercise time?
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    My understanding however is that it is a caloric energy source that is Glucose-less, alas in the form of Ketones...so maybe a "Pick-me-up" of energy that will NOT kick you out of ketosis. At least that is the understanding I got, since it is not glucose then oxygen consumption will go down (hence the ergogenic effect), and thus if it is significant enough it could help increase performance. Again...I'm not an expert.

    Questions would be (if used for fatloss), if it's a caloric source...can it be stored as fat? What are the benefits of it concerning fat oxidation, or does it help fat oxidation directly, rather than delaying exhaustion time to help fat oxidation via prolonged exercise time?
    IIRC these do not have calories and therefor cannot be stored as fat.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post

    IIRC these do not have calories and therefor cannot be stored as fat.
    Where did you see this bro? I could be wrong then and ketoacids have no calories. I kinda understood them as similar to dextrose without kicking you out of ketosis.
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  8. They can't be stored as fat but they'll obviously suppress fat oxidation to a degree. Why would your body produce ketoacids when there are already sufficient quantities to meet metabolic demand?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Where did you see this bro? I could be wrong then and ketoacids have no calories. I kinda understood them as similar to dextrose without kicking you out of ketosis.
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    They can't be stored as fat but they'll obviously suppress fat oxidation to a degree. Why would your body produce ketoacids when there are already sufficient quantities to meet metabolic demand?
    As a CKD'er, I feel that MCT's would be just as efficacious (assumption, I know) and certainly more cost-effective. While Carb Loading, this product makes no sense. In Ketosis, I don't want supra ketone bodies (seems to kind of defeat the purpose of kd). I utterly fail to see how it would put you into Ketosis (for any real duration) more quickly. And again, on a CKD, I am not in a big rush to get into Ketosis, as I want some glycogen for my 2 heavy lifting days. I might just be making a lot of assumption so far, so I'll wait and see like everyone else.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by SonicSWOLE View Post
    As a CKD'er, I feel that MCT's would be just as efficacious (assumption, I know) and certainly more cost-effective. While Carb Loading, this product makes no sense. In Ketosis, I don't want supra ketone bodies (seems to kind of defeat the purpose of kd). I utterly fail to see how it would put you into Ketosis (for any real duration) more quickly. And again, on a CKD, I am not in a big rush to get into Ketosis, as I want some glycogen for my 2 heavy lifting days. I might just be making a lot of assumption so far, so I'll wait and see like everyone else.
    Ketosis is simply elevated blood/tissue levels of ketoacids, which this product would produce instantly. I think you're referring to ketogenesis. Semantics maybe, but PA is saying that his product increases ketosis, not ketogenesis

  11. ive been chatting with the thruth (one of pats reps) and we have a rather long keto thread going. hes said that he can eat a carb loaded meal (using this stuff)and return back to a ketogenic state all most like he never ate carbs.. I don't know if hes actually testing blood to prove these actions or if hes just peeing on strips wich would be rather inaccurate.
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  12. The question I get when I consider the application of this post refeeds is, what about liver and muscle glycogen stores?
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    The question I get when I consider the application of this post refeeds is, what about liver and muscle glycogen stores?
    I wouldn't worry about muscle glycogen being high. Mainly liver glycogen.

    As far as I'm aware if your exposed to these keto acids your body may switch fuel sources to generate more atp?

  14. could this cause the body to release the last stores of glucose?
    for me I usually can drop carbs sunday night and reach ketosis by Tuesday night/ weds morning. I don't know exactly what benefit this would have though besides energy?
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    I wouldn't worry about muscle glycogen being high. Mainly liver glycogen.

    As far as I'm aware if your exposed to these keto acids your body may switch fuel sources to generate more atp?
    Let me elaborate.

    You are keto fieting and sre metabolically in ketosis. You have your refeed over the weekend and go to town at a sushi buffet. Now come Monday you supplement with these sodium and potassium BHB salts and it leads to a raise in blood ketone levels. Now with a substantial amount of ketones present im sure they will be used but what about the glycogen from the refeed? Once the ketones are utilized whats to keep you running on ketones?
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Let me elaborate.

    You are keto fieting and sre metabolically in ketosis. You have your refeed over the weekend and go to town at a sushi buffet. Now come Monday you supplement with these sodium and potassium BHB salts and it leads to a raise in blood ketone levels. Now with a substantial amount of ketones present im sure they will be used but what about the glycogen from the refeed? Once the ketones are utilized whats to keep you running on ketones?
    More and more ketones. So it won't be a true ketogenic state until glycogen stores are depleted; in this case, being in a ketogenic state (not just being in ketosis) implies that the body is carb depleted AND is producing ketone bodies through ketogenesis.

    This could work well as a bridge between a true ketogenic state and being carb depleted as the body will have ample stores readily available. IMO at least.
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  17. I'm also in for more info...
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  18. Thoughts on the oxygen efficiency benefits during endurance exercise and how that would combine with the oxygen efficiency benefits of nitrates anyone?
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  19. Should I take this with my glutamin and cee
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  20. As far as I know reading Lyle McDonald's material, you can still be in ketosis and eat 100 grams+ carbs a day.

    You dont necessarily need to be fully depleted or have a urine test to show ketones to actually be in ketosis in some way.

    I personally do TKD year round year after year (except for a short bulk last winter,) Ihave 50 grams of carbs in the morning, glucose pills post workout (taking glucose post workout lets your body prioritize storage in the muscle instead of the liver on TKD) and 25-50 grams additional from various sources (veggies, protein shakes, etc..).
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  21. Meh. More snake oil. Elevated ketone levels are a byproduct if secondary metabolism pathways. Injecting extra ketones is like trying to improve your LDL/HDL level by injecting more HDL.

    Hyper Ketosis isn't necessarily a good thing either. If I had a nickle for every time I heard a substance shrunk tumors in mice, I could retire.
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Meh. More snake oil. Elevated ketone levels are a byproduct if secondary metabolism pathways. Injecting extra ketones is like trying to improve your LDL/HDL level by injecting more HDL.

    Hyper Ketosis isn't necessarily a good thing either. If I had a nickle for every time I heard a substance shrunk tumors in mice, I could retire.
    I wouldnt call it snake oil. I took the recommended dose prior to my leg workout and the increase in endurance was very impressive. Is it expensive? Yes, but well worth it if you use them in the correct manner.
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  23. I'm interested in it for the endurance. Can't afford any supplements this week though, unless I want to live on the street. Or maybe in a van down by the river!

  24. I'm still not convinced it's worth the money though. Also worried about the safety of this product....

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    More and more ketones. So it won't be a true ketogenic state until glycogen stores are depleted; in this case, being in a ketogenic state (not just being in ketosis) implies that the body is carb depleted AND is producing ketone bodies through ketogenesis.

    This could work well as a bridge between a true ketogenic state and being carb depleted as the body will have ample stores readily available. IMO at least.
    This^^
    What would stop the body from completely dropping out of ketogenesis as soon a your dosage wears off. Unless your still burning glycogen stores at the same time just to a lesser degree.
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