Coop, De__eB, Josh, Jiggz...or anyone of that caliber...

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    My understanding however is that it is a caloric energy source that is Glucose-less, alas in the form of Ketones...so maybe a "Pick-me-up" of energy that will NOT kick you out of ketosis. At least that is the understanding I got, since it is not glucose then oxygen consumption will go down (hence the ergogenic effect), and thus if it is significant enough it could help increase performance. Again...I'm not an expert.

    Questions would be (if used for fatloss), if it's a caloric source...can it be stored as fat? What are the benefits of it concerning fat oxidation, or does it help fat oxidation directly, rather than delaying exhaustion time to help fat oxidation via prolonged exercise time?
    IIRC these do not have calories and therefor cannot be stored as fat.
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post

    IIRC these do not have calories and therefor cannot be stored as fat.
    Where did you see this bro? I could be wrong then and ketoacids have no calories. I kinda understood them as similar to dextrose without kicking you out of ketosis.
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  3. They can't be stored as fat but they'll obviously suppress fat oxidation to a degree. Why would your body produce ketoacids when there are already sufficient quantities to meet metabolic demand?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Where did you see this bro? I could be wrong then and ketoacids have no calories. I kinda understood them as similar to dextrose without kicking you out of ketosis.
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    They can't be stored as fat but they'll obviously suppress fat oxidation to a degree. Why would your body produce ketoacids when there are already sufficient quantities to meet metabolic demand?
    As a CKD'er, I feel that MCT's would be just as efficacious (assumption, I know) and certainly more cost-effective. While Carb Loading, this product makes no sense. In Ketosis, I don't want supra ketone bodies (seems to kind of defeat the purpose of kd). I utterly fail to see how it would put you into Ketosis (for any real duration) more quickly. And again, on a CKD, I am not in a big rush to get into Ketosis, as I want some glycogen for my 2 heavy lifting days. I might just be making a lot of assumption so far, so I'll wait and see like everyone else.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by SonicSWOLE View Post
    As a CKD'er, I feel that MCT's would be just as efficacious (assumption, I know) and certainly more cost-effective. While Carb Loading, this product makes no sense. In Ketosis, I don't want supra ketone bodies (seems to kind of defeat the purpose of kd). I utterly fail to see how it would put you into Ketosis (for any real duration) more quickly. And again, on a CKD, I am not in a big rush to get into Ketosis, as I want some glycogen for my 2 heavy lifting days. I might just be making a lot of assumption so far, so I'll wait and see like everyone else.
    Ketosis is simply elevated blood/tissue levels of ketoacids, which this product would produce instantly. I think you're referring to ketogenesis. Semantics maybe, but PA is saying that his product increases ketosis, not ketogenesis

  6. ive been chatting with the thruth (one of pats reps) and we have a rather long keto thread going. hes said that he can eat a carb loaded meal (using this stuff)and return back to a ketogenic state all most like he never ate carbs.. I don't know if hes actually testing blood to prove these actions or if hes just peeing on strips wich would be rather inaccurate.
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  7. The question I get when I consider the application of this post refeeds is, what about liver and muscle glycogen stores?
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    The question I get when I consider the application of this post refeeds is, what about liver and muscle glycogen stores?
    I wouldn't worry about muscle glycogen being high. Mainly liver glycogen.

    As far as I'm aware if your exposed to these keto acids your body may switch fuel sources to generate more atp?

  9. could this cause the body to release the last stores of glucose?
    for me I usually can drop carbs sunday night and reach ketosis by Tuesday night/ weds morning. I don't know exactly what benefit this would have though besides energy?
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    I wouldn't worry about muscle glycogen being high. Mainly liver glycogen.

    As far as I'm aware if your exposed to these keto acids your body may switch fuel sources to generate more atp?
    Let me elaborate.

    You are keto fieting and sre metabolically in ketosis. You have your refeed over the weekend and go to town at a sushi buffet. Now come Monday you supplement with these sodium and potassium BHB salts and it leads to a raise in blood ketone levels. Now with a substantial amount of ketones present im sure they will be used but what about the glycogen from the refeed? Once the ketones are utilized whats to keep you running on ketones?
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Let me elaborate.

    You are keto fieting and sre metabolically in ketosis. You have your refeed over the weekend and go to town at a sushi buffet. Now come Monday you supplement with these sodium and potassium BHB salts and it leads to a raise in blood ketone levels. Now with a substantial amount of ketones present im sure they will be used but what about the glycogen from the refeed? Once the ketones are utilized whats to keep you running on ketones?
    More and more ketones. So it won't be a true ketogenic state until glycogen stores are depleted; in this case, being in a ketogenic state (not just being in ketosis) implies that the body is carb depleted AND is producing ketone bodies through ketogenesis.

    This could work well as a bridge between a true ketogenic state and being carb depleted as the body will have ample stores readily available. IMO at least.
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  12. I'm also in for more info...
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  13. Thoughts on the oxygen efficiency benefits during endurance exercise and how that would combine with the oxygen efficiency benefits of nitrates anyone?
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  14. Should I take this with my glutamin and cee
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  15. As far as I know reading Lyle McDonald's material, you can still be in ketosis and eat 100 grams+ carbs a day.

    You dont necessarily need to be fully depleted or have a urine test to show ketones to actually be in ketosis in some way.

    I personally do TKD year round year after year (except for a short bulk last winter,) Ihave 50 grams of carbs in the morning, glucose pills post workout (taking glucose post workout lets your body prioritize storage in the muscle instead of the liver on TKD) and 25-50 grams additional from various sources (veggies, protein shakes, etc..).
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  16. Meh. More snake oil. Elevated ketone levels are a byproduct if secondary metabolism pathways. Injecting extra ketones is like trying to improve your LDL/HDL level by injecting more HDL.

    Hyper Ketosis isn't necessarily a good thing either. If I had a nickle for every time I heard a substance shrunk tumors in mice, I could retire.
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Meh. More snake oil. Elevated ketone levels are a byproduct if secondary metabolism pathways. Injecting extra ketones is like trying to improve your LDL/HDL level by injecting more HDL.

    Hyper Ketosis isn't necessarily a good thing either. If I had a nickle for every time I heard a substance shrunk tumors in mice, I could retire.
    I wouldnt call it snake oil. I took the recommended dose prior to my leg workout and the increase in endurance was very impressive. Is it expensive? Yes, but well worth it if you use them in the correct manner.
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  18. I'm interested in it for the endurance. Can't afford any supplements this week though, unless I want to live on the street. Or maybe in a van down by the river!
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  19. I'm still not convinced it's worth the money though. Also worried about the safety of this product....
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    More and more ketones. So it won't be a true ketogenic state until glycogen stores are depleted; in this case, being in a ketogenic state (not just being in ketosis) implies that the body is carb depleted AND is producing ketone bodies through ketogenesis.

    This could work well as a bridge between a true ketogenic state and being carb depleted as the body will have ample stores readily available. IMO at least.
    This^^
    What would stop the body from completely dropping out of ketogenesis as soon a your dosage wears off. Unless your still burning glycogen stores at the same time just to a lesser degree.
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    I wouldnt call it snake oil. I took the recommended dose prior to my leg workout and the increase in endurance was very impressive. Is it expensive? Yes, but well worth it if you use them in the correct manner.
    Under normal conditions, the ketone is a bio marker of your diet. Upping the ketone artificially shouldn't increase fat metabolism. That's what he was originally marketing this as from what I gathered. The cancer claim also made this product fail my sniff test.

    With this product, You're just ingesting ketones so plasma levels increase assuming they don't get metabolized to acetone first pass in the liver. Push the concentration too far and it becomes toxic, changes blood PH and makes your pee smell like nail polish remover.
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Under normal conditions, the ketone is a bio marker of your diet. Upping the ketone artificially shouldn't increase fat metabolism. That's what he was originally marketing this as from what I gathered. The cancer claim also made this product fail my sniff test.

    With this product, You're just ingesting ketones so plasma levels increase assuming they don't get metabolized to acetone first pass in the liver. Push the concentration too far and it becomes toxic, changes blood PH and makes your pee smell like nail polish remover.
    I know its just ketones and iirc PA said this cant become toxic or push you into ketoacidosis. I also noted no change in the smell of my pee after ingestion.
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm still not convinced it's worth the money though. Also worried about the safety of this product....
    "Safe" what's the benefits of being on Ketosis? Medical advantages and science prove there's nothing inherently amazing or good about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Under normal conditions, the ketone is a bio marker of your diet. Upping the ketone artificially shouldn't increase fat metabolism. That's what he was originally marketing this as from what I gathered. The cancer claim also made this product fail my sniff test.

    With this product, You're just ingesting ketones so plasma levels increase assuming they don't get metabolized to acetone first pass in the liver. Push the concentration too far and it becomes toxic, changes blood PH and makes your pee smell like nail polish remover.
    I liked the post, a bit aggressive though hehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    I wouldnt call it snake oil. I took the recommended dose prior to my leg workout and the increase in endurance was very impressive. Is it expensive? Yes, but well worth it if you use them in the correct manner.
    In progressive order this product had been "explained" to be:
    -Fat Loss Aid
    -Express Way to Ketosis
    -A way back into ketosis
    -Less Oxygen Consumption for better endurance (any energy source that does not relate to glucose does this...)
    -Now it is a super ergogen for amazing extra endurance.

    I am just a bit curious of what it REALLY does...on many talks I have had with Cyrus and many others, the benefits of Ketosis are more...a hit and miss to keep it polite and safe, some people love it, swear by it and stand by it, some others like me don't respond to it and love the science saying it's not worth it (justifies my anger for it not being the great wow fat burning diet i thought it would be).

    So how where your endurance levels at? How much longer did you last on aerobic/anaerobic training compared to any placebo? Or to any pre-existing DATA with proper distribution functions to correlate a substantial increase? Not asking in an inflammatory matter...just saying that even @mr.cooper69 or anyone else knows NOT to trust even their own ANECDOTAL experience due to placebo effects.
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    "Safe" what's the benefits of being on Ketosis? Medical advantages and science prove there's nothing inherently amazing or good about it.


    I liked the post, a bit aggressive though hehe.



    In progressive order this product had been "explained" to be:
    -Fat Loss Aid
    -Express Way to Ketosis
    -A way back into ketosis
    -Less Oxygen Consumption for better endurance (any energy source that does not relate to glucose does this...)
    -Now it is a super ergogen for amazing extra endurance.

    I am just a bit curious of what it REALLY does...on many talks I have had with Cyrus and many others, the benefits of Ketosis are more...a hit and miss to keep it polite and safe, some people love it, swear by it and stand by it, some others like me don't respond to it and love the science saying it's not worth it (justifies my anger for it not being the great wow fat burning diet i thought it would be).

    So how where your endurance levels at? How much longer did you last on aerobic/anaerobic training compared to any placebo? Or to any pre-existing DATA with proper distribution functions to correlate a substantial increase? Not asking in an inflammatory matter...just saying that even @mr.cooper69 or anyone else knows NOT to trust even their own ANECDOTAL experience due to placebo effects.
    I know what was stated to possibly do and i as well was hoping it would increase fatburning and honestly didnt even know it would help with endurance. When i took it i didnt even know this was one of the possibilities to be honest.

    While placebo could definitely have an effect in everything we take i always try to find ways to debunk a product i am taking for the first time. There was just no discrediting what the product did for me during my leg session.

    For example on leg curls. I typicaly pyramid up from 80 to a max of 110 for reps in the 20-10 rep range. On this perticular day i got all the way up to 130 and hit 20 reps every time. Now this was even after my squat set.

    Typicaly on squats (which im not very strong on mind you) i work my way up from 135 to 275. Utilizing 12 on my first set and ending around 4-6 for my last set. During this exercise i hit 275 for a solid 8 reps below parallel with no help.

    Even after the leg workout was over i felt i still had some left in the tank.

    I then proceeded to give my buddy 30mls of keto force prior to a chest workout. I told him nothing about what the product could possibly do.

    After the workout i asked him what he noticed. He said he felt as if he couldnt get tired and added reps to almost every exetcise. He asked me what it was supposed to do and i told him it can be used to increase endurance. Needless to say he was impressed with the product.
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  25. With such a great increase in endurance, what happens when you stop taking it?. I mean I'm sure its great for the time you're taking it, but with such a dramatic increase in endurance it has to be pretty depressing when stopping it. I don't know, it's all kind of hard to believe.
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  26. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    With such a great increase in endurance, what happens when you stop taking it?. I mean I'm sure its great for the time you're taking it, but with such a dramatic increase in endurance it has to be pretty depressing when stopping it. I don't know, it's all kind of hard to believe.
    Well its just like with Beta Alanine or COP. The endurance benefit doesnt last once you have ceased the use of said product. Granted BA and COP are far cheaper to use but still.

    I think this will be great for people doing crossfit or even those deep into a diet and find that they are lacking the endurance they once had because of the low calories.
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  27. Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    Well its just like with Beta Alanine or COP. The endurance benefit doesnt last once you have ceased the use of said product. Granted BA and COP are far cheaper to use but still.

    I think this will be great for people doing crossfit or even those deep into a diet and find that they are lacking the endurance they once had because of the low calories.

    Sure but the way you describe the increase in endurance with this product, its extremely dramatic. It seems like its comparable to going from being natural to your first "real gear" cycle. Now if it is indeed that dramatic, than dropping it all of a sudden when done I would think there would be some kind of problem with your body re-adjusting. Just like you need a PCT with steroids because you are shut down. Of course I'm just speculating though. With things like BA and COP, its just not as dramatic as your describing and if you continue to work on improving endurance after ceasing taking BA or COP you should be able to maintain the same level of endurance or just slightly below what it was when you were taking BA or COP.

    I'm going from the way you are describing it.
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  28. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Sure but the way you describe the increase in endurance with this product, its extremely dramatic. It seems like its comparable to going from being natural to your first "real gear" cycle. Now if it is indeed that dramatic, than dropping it all of a sudden when done I would think there would be some kind of problem with your body re-adjusting. Just like you need a PCT with steroids because you are shut down. Of course I'm just speculating though. With things like BA and COP, its just not as dramatic as your describing and if you continue to work on improving endurance after ceasing taking BA or COP you should be able to maintain the same level of endurance or just slightly below what it was when you were taking BA or COP.

    I'm going from the way you are describing it.
    Well that was just my experience with it. Not everyone will have that same experience including myself. I could go into the gym tomorrow, take it preworkout, and it increases my endurance only slightly. Im just passing along the numbers and how i felt on it and i havnt had any issues with emdurance after useage, it just wemt back to where i was previously.
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  29. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    I liked the post, a bit aggressive though hehe.
    Whoops
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  30. Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    I know what was stated to possibly do and i as well was hoping it would increase fatburning and honestly didnt even know it would help with endurance. When i took it i didnt even know this was one of the possibilities to be honest.

    While placebo could definitely have an effect in everything we take i always try to find ways to debunk a product i am taking for the first time. There was just no discrediting what the product did for me during my leg session.

    For example on leg curls. I typicaly pyramid up from 80 to a max of 110 for reps in the 20-10 rep range. On this perticular day i got all the way up to 130 and hit 20 reps every time. Now this was even after my squat set.

    Typicaly on squats (which im not very strong on mind you) i work my way up from 135 to 275. Utilizing 12 on my first set and ending around 4-6 for my last set. During this exercise i hit 275 for a solid 8 reps below parallel with no help.

    Even after the leg workout was over i felt i still had some left in the tank.

    I then proceeded to give my buddy 30mls of keto force prior to a chest workout. I told him nothing about what the product could possibly do.

    After the workout i asked him what he noticed. He said he felt as if he couldnt get tired and added reps to almost every exetcise. He asked me what it was supposed to do and i told him it can be used to increase endurance. Needless to say he was impressed with the product.
    Nice results, and please PLEASE don't take this the wrong way...just some questions, and honestly purely scientific interest not being a dick:

    -Was this after the first time ever dosing?

    -Did you in some way document (in a log here or anyway) how you go about your day and/or week leading to THAT particular Leg workout of that one session?

    -If so , did you do anything different? Did you vary calories, sleep, supplementation, mood, psychologically stimulating factors such as different music, anger, stress, etc?

    -Did this effect repeat itself? If so at what dosages? What changed? How many times did you dose before this effects? (In case it was not on the first dose)

    All those could be ways to find if it really can be considered a quasi case-study about it being significantly important in amazing performance enhancing for 1 sole individual without placebo and with ceteris paribus considerations aside the dosage of this supplement.
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