Nootropics For Dummies - AnabolicMinds.com

Nootropics For Dummies

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    Nootropics For Dummies


    More I read about nootropics more I'm fascinated by potentials they can have on quality of our lives - especially long term in prevention of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease due to it's effect mainly on Ach levels.

    Could you make like a good guide on how to start with nootropics up to hardcore stacks since few threads on them are over 30 pages long then newbies gets lost so would be great to have like a sticky topic with summary on your 1st reply which you can update in future.

    Or you open new thread for nootropics and make it a sticky (you can delete this one if you want).

    Like basic stuff good sleep, diet, exercise then mild nootropics to racetams up to modafinil and long term effects and side effects, stack recommendations and cycling on/off time periods.

    Then with time you could post a new reply with new discoveries or new study for certain nootropic.

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    Yes please very much
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    So Alzheimer's disease, yes, your traditional nootropic will be of worth. The data doesn't really get much better than CDP-Choline. It's not just a supplement standard, but a world pharmaceutical standard as far as choline intake is concerned. ALCAR is another great addition for acetate donation plus a ton of other benefits, and the occasional acetylcholinesterase inhibitor is favored (and is the first line of cholinergic treatment for AD).

    Could these boost cognition in healthy individuals? Memory formation and retrieval is a 4-stage process, and the first step (encoding) and last step (retrieval) are heavily dependent on attention and concentration. Thankfully, the Nucleus Basalis of Meynert, situated in the Reticular Activating System, is cholinergic in nature and can positively modulate attention. So yes, there is potential for cholinergic nootropics to "optimize" how easily you can put a memory in your brain, and how easily you can recall it. Longterm consolidation and storage is largely a different issue.

    As for Parkinson's disease, late-stage pathology may involve cholinergic neurons, but the obvious focus would be the basal ganglia and the dopaminergic system. However, some treatments actually concentrate on GABAergic pathways, primarily via Deep-Brain Stimulation (which is exceptionally effective btw).
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    Great start of this topic.

    Now onto beginner's stack and all the way to hardcore stacks for business men and students please.

    Should get today ALCAR, Na-R-ALA and CDP Choline (reading this stack also works good as erection booster) plus have already multivitamin and fish oil containing omega 3 + ubiquinol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahh123 View Post
    Great start of this topic.

    Now onto beginner's stack and all the way to hardcore stacks for business men and students please.

    Should get today ALCAR, Na-R-ALA and CDP Choline (reading this stack also works good as erection booster) plus have already multivitamin and fish oil containing omega 3 + ubiquinol.
    Couldn't ask for a better stack, and yeah, erections are parasympathetically (cholinergically) mediated. Lots of studies in rats show benefits of DHA with Citicoline so good call with the fish oil as well.
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    Cooper what are your thoughts on Zyzz?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quadzilla99 View Post
    Cooper what are your thoughts on Zyzz?
    I thought it was cool he had a wiki page

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Shavershian
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    Great topic idea OP.

    Dr. Coop,
    Any explanation as to why some people would be hypersensitive?

    For example, i love the effects of Alcar. The cognitive sharpness is evident. Unfortunately, i cant turn it off to the point that it interferes with sleep.

    Iv tried the obvious... morning dosing only, cutting dosage in half and then in 1/2 again. I usually end up having to stop the alcar after 7-10 days bc of sleep deprivation

    Ur thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    Great topic idea OP.

    Dr. Coop,
    Any explanation as to why some people would be hypersensitive?

    For example, i love the effects of Alcar. The cognitive sharpness is evident. Unfortunately, i cant turn it off to the point that it interferes with sleep.

    Iv tried the obvious... morning dosing only, cutting dosage in half and then in 1/2 again. I usually end up having to stop the alcar after 7-10 days bc of sleep deprivation

    Ur thoughts?
    Family history/genetics related to vascular sympathetic tone, sodium (acutely its transient, chronically it's "the silent killer"), and various health-related, preventable factors. Like all chronic diseases, the causes are of great variance.

    The elimination halflife of ALCAR seems to be 35.9+/-28.9h (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19178874). Unfortunately, this figure allows for serious variance (7 hours to over 2 days!). If you're on of those people that is kept up by ALCAR, the sad truth is that you may need to save it on a need-only basis. I could try to think of something that would offset its cholinergic effects, but the system is too complex to simply be antagonized by another supplement and related neurotransmitter system
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Interesting stuff. Thanks for the input
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Dan View Post
    Senior Cooper,

    Three separate questions regarding ALCAR

    1.) Are there any known side effects of depression while supplementing with ALCAR, I have battled off and on with depression and it seems after prolonged use of ALCAR it tends to worsen.

    2.) Any suggestions on ways to help with preventing a tolerance to ALCAR? I'm at the point where I don't notice anything under 4g.

    3.) Thoughts on ALCAR speeding up the process of hair loss?
    1. Mouse models show that ALCAR actually has an anti-depressant effect, but if you are diagnosed with depression, it would be wise to avoid cholinergics.

    2. I've never noticed this phenomenon...have you tried it with caffeine or cdp-choline?

    3. I think it's about as likely as your multi speeding up hairloss, which is to say it can, but it's highly unlikely.
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Today was day 4 of my stack of 200mg Na-R-ALA, 1.5g ALCAR, 250mg CDP Choline, multivitamin and fish oil (containing 360mg DHA + 25mg ubiquionol) but weird thing happened after great yesterday and sleep.

    I try to get up out of bed and I feel so dizzy I had to lay back to bed then try again and felt really dizzy or light headed.

    Went to measure my BP which is usually low around 90/60 and it was 83/59 and heart rate 68 which for me is "normal".

    Have to say on day 2 of this stack my morning BP was 89/59 and heart rate 70 so not much change from today but today even 2 hours after waking up I still felt dizzy and upset stomach feeling (like somebody sitting on my stomach).

    Only thing I was changing every day was increasing dose of ALCAR by 500mg so day 1 I took 500mg ALCAR then day 2 I took 1g and yesterday 1.5g.

    I did read that R-ALA + ALCAR combo can lower systolic pressure by 10 and other stuff I'm taking 3 days now can also lower BP (CDP Choline, fish oil and ubiquinol) so I'll lower the R-ALA from 200mg daily to 100mg daily and CDP Choline either stay at 250mg daily or take 250mg every other day.

    Have to say I'm used to having such low BP but only felt so dizzy to barely stand on my feet when I get some food poisoning but never felt this way from taking supplements hmm.

    But weird thing 3h after waking up and still felt borderline OK I went for walk and actually wanted to run so did 2 light 1min runs and even 2x 8sec full sprints and could feel being not fatigued so I guess ALCAR works for me just this stack looks like lowers my already low BP too much so I guess I'll have to reduce amounts of other stuff in my stack to hit that sweet spot for great synergy.

    Would others agree with this or have any other explanation or suggestion?
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    Great thread ahh123.

    Currently using Noopept and CDP Choline. I take 20mg Noopept + 250mg CDP Choline first thing in the morning and about 2-3hours later I take another 10mg Noopept + 250mg CDP Choline. Other daily supplements include 2g Agmatine, 100mg Na-Rala, 200mg Caffeine, 1.2g NAC, 1g vitamin C.

    Since I started using Noopept and CDP Choline, I have noticed a definite improvement in focus, sociability, recall memory, pattern recognition, ability to stay on task, and more fluid speech. I also notice tremendous decrease in social anxiety and a decrease in my overall learning curve when learning new skills. This has helped me a great deal at work. I have tried ALCAR with Na-Rala on its own previously, and am looking forward to stacking these two with Noopept and CDP Choline.
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    I "think" I might have to credit agmatine with allowing me to take piracetam and ALCAR. I've tried numerous times to experiment with piracetam and always had to quit due to anxiety or insomnia or both. My mind would race and at night terrible, terrible insomnia. ALCAR was not anxiety producing, but did elicit insomnia after 4-5 days of use.

    Since I've been dosing 500mg-1g of agmatine, all the negative sides have gone away and I can finally enjoy all the benefits of piracetam that people clamor about(I have a kilo, so I was motivated to find a way).

    It's the only thing different outside of methylfolate, that I have tried when attempting to experiment with racetams or alcar. Totally anecdotal, but I thought I would share anyway because I am stoked about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahh123 View Post
    Today was day 4 of my stack of 200mg Na-R-ALA, 1.5g ALCAR, 250mg CDP Choline, multivitamin and fish oil (containing 360mg DHA + 25mg ubiquionol) but weird thing happened after great yesterday and sleep.

    I try to get up out of bed and I feel so dizzy I had to lay back to bed then try again and felt really dizzy or light headed.

    Went to measure my BP which is usually low around 90/60 and it was 83/59 and heart rate 68 which for me is "normal".

    Have to say on day 2 of this stack my morning BP was 89/59 and heart rate 70 so not much change from today but today even 2 hours after waking up I still felt dizzy and upset stomach feeling (like somebody sitting on my stomach).

    Only thing I was changing every day was increasing dose of ALCAR by 500mg so day 1 I took 500mg ALCAR then day 2 I took 1g and yesterday 1.5g.

    I did read that R-ALA + ALCAR combo can lower systolic pressure by 10 and other stuff I'm taking 3 days now can also lower BP (CDP Choline, fish oil and ubiquinol) so I'll lower the R-ALA from 200mg daily to 100mg daily and CDP Choline either stay at 250mg daily or take 250mg every other day.

    Have to say I'm used to having such low BP but only felt so dizzy to barely stand on my feet when I get some food poisoning but never felt this way from taking supplements hmm.

    But weird thing 3h after waking up and still felt borderline OK I went for walk and actually wanted to run so did 2 light 1min runs and even 2x 8sec full sprints and could feel being not fatigued so I guess ALCAR works for me just this stack looks like lowers my already low BP too much so I guess I'll have to reduce amounts of other stuff in my stack to hit that sweet spot for great synergy.

    Would others agree with this or have any other explanation or suggestion?
    Your lightheadedness could very well been from a drop in blood sugar. Agmatine and especially Na-R-ALA are potent GDA's.
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    Woke up this morning and today no issues regarding being dizzy with BP 86/55 and heart rate 66.

    Yesterday didn't take Na-R-ALA and only took 500mg of ALCAR plus multi, fish oil and 250mg CDP Choline.

    I'll try today just 2x 500mg ALCAR then tomorrow maybe start with 250mg CDP Choline and fish oil every other day then 2 days from today start with 100mg NA-R-ALA daily.

    Low glucose causing my dizziness could also be the case since day before I eat mostly bean soup with white bread so didn't get much carbs in and I usually drink a lot of water plus the heat plus in the morning of my dizziness I was 0.5kg lighter so all this could add up.

    Also I found half time of ALCAR to be around 33h and CDP Choline 66h so after 3 days this stuff accumulated in my body but ALA says eliminates in 24h completely.

    Too bad for my BP to be in start so low or else this stack of mine would work amazingly to lower BP, reduce appetite, give boost in overall energy and mood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Dan View Post
    1.) I have never been clinically diagnosed with depression, just personal observations. I would say in the moment when I take ALCAR I feel great but as the day carries on is when I starts to observe depressive traits. Why would it be wise to avoid cholinergics? Is it the way they cross the BBB?

    2.) Sorry, I should have clarified myself. I'm at the point of having to take 2-3g in the AM and 2-3g in the PM to notice the immediate effects of mental clarity. I always dose it with caffeine and it certainly does help. I suppose what I wonder is what would be consider a "safe" cumulative daily dosage and what would be consider "unnecessary" or going overboard?

    3.) That makes sense, thanks.

    Note- "Mouse models show that ALCAR actually has an anti-depressant effect"

    I read that really quick and thought it said "moose models" and the mental picture of scientist trying to feed a 1500lb moose ALCAR made me LOL.
    1. Cholinergics can downregulate systems (monoamines) related to major depression. If you don't actually have physiological depression, it doesn't really apply.

    2. I'd say 2-4g daily.

    Hope that helps!
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    Coop, would you mind sharing your thoughts on Phenylpiracetam in comparison to some of the other ingredients on this thread? From my understanding it's a stimulant with noot type effects?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    Coop, would you mind sharing your thoughts on Phenylpiracetam in comparison to some of the other ingredients on this thread? From my understanding it's a stimulant with noot type effects?
    Yeah it's honestly apples to oranges. Cholinergics are best used continuously. PhenylP is best used sporadically. Cholinergics have no stimulant effect and may help memory retention and overall sharpness in the longterm. PhenylP produces an acute, fairly powerful (if dosed high enough) stimulant effect. It also acutely improves memory encoding for me and has an actual focus effect
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yeah it's honestly apples to oranges. Cholinergics are best used continuously. PhenylP is best used sporadically. Cholinergics have no stimulant effect and may help memory retention and overall sharpness in the longterm. PhenylP produces an acute, fairly powerful (if dosed high enough) stimulant effect. It also acutely improves memory encoding for me and has an actual focus effect
    Thanks for the response. That makes a lot more sense than the articles I've been reading on the web. May give this a shot.
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    Power to you guys that can take 4g of ALCAR a day or barely feel anything at 2g.

    For me it took 2 days off ALCAR (even when taking just 500mg in the morning) to stop feeling upset stomach and light headedness.

    I started reading more on long term recommended dose and few sources say if converting rat studies that human daily dose for ALCAR to be 100-300mg.

    Also they noticed U curve action where higher dose actually start working in negative way - similar as noticed with Bulbine where higher dose actually starts reducing testosterone.

    I'll try now with 500mg of ALCAR and 250mg CDP Choline every other day and R-ALA is not for me with lowering my already low BP and I guess lowering blood glucose made me so dizzy on day 4 of starting to figure my stack.
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    ahh123...So how are you doing now with the new dosing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ws65 View Post
    ahh123...So how are you doing now with the new dosing?
    Well CDP Choline don't feel any real benefits but I do feel slight side effects like a bit light headedness, a bit sleepy during day, slight stomach discomfort, definitely no energy boost and 3-5h after taking just 250mg morning dose I get light diarrhea despite taking every other day just 250mg.

    Actually this light version of side effects I sometimes experience even when eating 3 eggs that have around 375mg choline so looks like my body just doesn't respond well to extra choline.

    But I do have to say my body is sensitive as well to certain food and even alcohol my body doesn't like much.

    ALCAR hmm at 500mg every other day in the morning is borderline to feel benefits yet still having light version of side effects.

    In summary:
    - R-ALA is not for me since looks like lowers my blood glucose too much and make me so dizzy I can barely stand despite being used to having BP around 85/50 to 95/65,

    - CDP Choline haven't felt considerable benefits plus can feel side effects like brain fog, a bit sleepy and diarrhea so this is also not something I want to keep on using,

    - ALCAR hmm I do feel some benefits but 500mg is to small of a dose for real effects to kick in but then if I go higher the side effects kick in higher gear too so I might try to use it 2x/week at 1g in the morning (or 3x/week at 500mg) for physical & memory endurance booster.

    Too bad my body is so sensitive with most of supplements, food or drinks so I guess my body is not in average category.
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    Have ya'll heard of modafinil?
    It's the real life drug from Limitless. I take it whenever I need to work hard and go straight into tunnel vision mode it's insane. I can work for 8 hours straight and it will feel like 2. Only need 4 hours of sleep a night and the side effects are limited. Brilliant nootropic.
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    4g Piracetam + 500mg Pramiracetam + Vinpocetine + 1.5g Alpha GPC = Feelin pretty focused. Not particularly motivated, but focused.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBrucy View Post
    Have ya'll heard of modafinil?
    It's the real life drug from Limitless. I take it whenever I need to work hard and go straight into tunnel vision mode it's insane. I can work for 8 hours straight and it will feel like 2. Only need 4 hours of sleep a night and the side effects are limited. Brilliant nootropic.
    I did try it. I never felt what you did, I did stay up the whole night though, I was tired but couldn't sleep...
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysfirst View Post
    I did try it. I never felt what you did, I did stay up the whole night though, I was tired but couldn't sleep...
    Same. No real energy or tunnel vision, just an inability to sleep
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