Nitrate discussion

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    Nitrate discussion


    I have noticed that there has been lot of talks about nitrate supplementation recently so figured this topic deserved its own post.

    Couple different areas I think we cam explore are

    1. Health risk (cancer?)
    2. Ergogenic benefits - Aerobic? Anerobic? Do we know the mechanism?
    3. Is there any tolerance issue with it? Does it work acutely or need to be saturated?
    4. Is there any synergy with other ergogenic aides? Does it enchance them or does somethong enhance it?
    5. Lastly anecdotal experience with their use.
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    Now a couple of notes

    1. Mr.Coop, can you please not respond with a
    1
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    Type answer here. Instead, lets try and have a discussion on each point above. Also if possible lets start at the top amd work our way down. If need be we can back track but I would lile to avoid just skipping around, especially to the last point. In this sub-forum anecdotal evidence, while important and valuable, should be the last thing discussed. Remember this forum is not for reviews, it is for learning and understanding the science behind the how and why questions. I feel using this approach we will all walk away learning and have an complete understanding to nitrate supplementation.
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    Very relevant topic, Judo. I'm in.
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    okay I will start

    Health risk

    Circulating our news, facebook pages, etc we have stories and pictures like this

    http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/22/ga...ting-well.html

    Name:  1045156_529304347117832_649630611_n.jpg
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    Now ignoring the fact the above study was an epidemiologic study and instead lets discuss the proposed mechanism

    Nitrate > nitrosamine

    With nitrosamine being a known carcinogen it is fairly easy to see how we can jump to conclusions and assume nitrate = cancer.

    Now first some nitrosamine studies

    Nitrosamine and related food intake and gastric and oesophageal cancer risk: a systematic review of the epidemiological evidence

    Abstract

    AIM:
    To study the association between nitrite and nitrosamine intake and gastric cancer (GC), between meat and processed meat intake, GC and oesophageal cancer (OC), and between preserved fi sh, vegetable and smoked food intake and GC.

    METHODS:
    In this article we reviewed all the published cohort and case-control studies from 1985-2005, and analyzed the relationship between nitrosamine and nitrite intake and the most important related food intake (meat and processed meat, preserved vegetables and fish, smoked foods and beer drinking) and GC or OC risk. Sixty-one studies, 11 cohorts and 50 case-control studies were included.

    RESULTS:
    Evidence from case-control studies supported an association between nitrite and nitrosamine intake with GC but evidence was insufficient in relation to OC. A high proportion of case-control studies found a positive association with meat intake for both tumours (11 of 16 studies on GC and 11 of 18 studies on OC). A
    relatively large number of case-control studies showed quite consistent results supporting a positive association
    between processed meat intake and GC and OC risk (10 of 14 studies on GC and 8 of 9 studies on OC).
    Almost all the case-control studies found a positive and signifi cant association between preserved fi sh, vegetable
    and smoked food intake and GC. The evidence regarding OC was more limited. Overall the evidence from cohort
    studies was insuffi cient or more inconsistent than that from case-control studies.

    CONCLUSION:
    The available evidence supports apositive association between nitrite and nitrosamine intake and GC, between meat and processed meat intake
    and GC and OC, and between preserved fish, vegetable and smoked food intake and GC, but is not conclusive.
    Now it would appear most of the research that links nitrate consumption and cancer is on meat, specifically processed meat. But what about nitrate itself?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7200054
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3974695
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18268290

    I mean take a look at the nitrate amount in vegetables

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19439460
    http://www.nutritionj.com/content/8/1/16

    Maybe it is not the nitrate in these processed meats that is linked to cancer but something else in them? In fact, it would appear that nitrates are actually quite protective and have beneficial health effects

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15841216
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18250365
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19252084
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17893272
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    My understanding is that ascorbic acid inhibits nitrosation of amines to nitrosamine, whereas the acidic environment of the stomach favours nitrosation but the data is humans is rather inconclusive. My hypothesis is that people habitually eat meat that coincides with Vit C intake and the fact that there are guidelines to adding ascrobic to meat products for this reason.

    With that in mind, can we hypothesize that fruits and vegetables that are high in both nitrates and ascorbic acid will likely not form nitrosamines? "Approximately 80% of dietary nitrates are derived from vegetable consumption; sources of nitrites include vegetables, fruit, and processed meats".
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    in on this subject, always been interested with nitrates
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    I got schooled by a genomyx rep once on this topic lol... I'm in to learn more
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    Nitrates and Wine: Wine is a very complex beverage, containing hundreds of substances. There are amines, tannins, resveratrol, and other compounds in tiny amounts. But the most feared among wine connoisseurs is the nitrite.

    Nitrites in wine have long been a subject of interest among wine lovers. It has become “common knowledge” that nitrites cause what is known as red wine headache (RWH). Even a half-glass of red wine in susceptible people will bring on this unpleasant reaction. So everybody thinks sulfites are to blame and many avoid red wine for that reason.

    But here’s the REAL scoop: The actual cause of RWH is unknown, and no specific chemical or ingredient in red wine has ever been officially implicated as its cause.

    Besides, white wine actually contains more nitrites than red wine. They prevent browning and other types of oxidation. The compounds in the skins of red grapes that give red wine its color also act as natural preservatives, allowing red wines to be stable with lower levels of nitrite than white wine.

    Many foods also contain much higher nitrite levels than either version of wine. Crackers, frozen shrimp and other shellfish, most dried fruit and fruit toppings, canned tomatoes, pickles, and orange juice all contain more nitrites than wine. And each day our own bodies produce more nitrites than any bottle of wine contains.

    If you can eat all the above foods without symptoms, then you are not sensitive to nitrites, guaranteed.

    The fact is, only one person in a hundred is sensitive to nitrites. However, 5 percent of those people, usually asthmatics, can have a serious reaction.

    Here’s a few things to keep in mind

    Just because a bottle of wine says “No added nitrite” on the label, that doesn’t mean it’s nitrite-free. All wines naturally contain nitrites – usually a concentration of about 10 parts per million, but they can have anywhere from 20 to hundreds of parts per million of nitrites. But after aging for a few years, they will have a concentration of nitrite that is impossible to measure. So if you are concerned about nitrites, drink wine that is two years old or older.

    Even if the wine you choose does have negligible levels of nitrites, there may be other preservatives added that are much worse. These are what you should really be concerned about, since nitrites are rarely the problem in the first place. If you are serious about wine, try organic varieties. However, be forewarned that they are uneven in quality.

    Dr. Douglas



    It’s been heralded as a sugar-substitute sensation, but Aspartame could actually be a stone-cold killer. It has been reported that the FDA even acknowledged a list of 92 symptoms (and counting) associated with it, yet they continue to let us consume it while they sweep the truth under the rug.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    My understanding is that ascorbic acid inhibits nitrosation of amines to nitrosamine, whereas the acidic environment of the stomach favours nitrosation but the data is humans is rather inconclusive. My hypothesis is that people habitually eat meat that coincides with Vit C intake and the fact that there are guidelines to adding ascrobic to meat products for this reason. With that in mind, can we hypothesize that fruits and vegetables that are high in both nitrates and ascorbic acid will likely not form nitrosamines? "Approximately 80% of dietary nitrates are derived from vegetable consumption; sources of nitrites include vegetables, fruit, and processed meats".
    I will be back in here later and kudos to Josh for a great thread. I agree with Jiigz completely here. Ascorbate is not the only means of preventing nitrosamine formation, and I'm sure vegetables contain other vital antioxidants since low Vit C veggies still seem to be regarded as safe/healthy for consumption (and ANTI-carcinogenic)
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    Nitrates in Commercial Foods More Dangerous Than We First Thought
    By Sherry Baker

    According to a new study by scientists at Rhode Island Hospital, millions of Americans could be at risk of serious and even fatal diseases because of chemicals used to fertilize and to preserve food. Scientists have found a strong link between increasing levels of nitrates and nitrites in our food supply and increasing death rates from Alzheimer's, diabetes mellitus and Parkinson's disease.

    The research, just published in the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease, investigated trends in death rates due to diseases associated with advancing age. They found convincing parallels between age adjusted rises in mortality from certain illnesses -- Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and diabetes -- and the steadily increasing human exposure to nitrates, nitrites and nitrosamines through processed and preserved foods as well as fertilizers.

    Suzanne de la Monte, MD, MPH, of Rhode Island Hospital, and her research team suggest that the exposure to these chemicals is playing a direct role in the cause, development and effects of the pandemic of these diseases. "Because of the similar trending in nearly all age groups within each disease category, this indicates that these overall trends are not due to an aging population. This relatively short time interval for such dramatic increases in death rates associated with these diseases is more consistent with exposure-related causes rather than genetic changes," Dr. de la Monte explained in a statement to the media. "Moreover, the strikingly higher and climbing mortality rates in older age brackets suggest that aging and/or longer durations of exposure have greater impacts on progression and severity of these diseases."

    Nitrites and nitrates belong to a class of chemicals called nitrosamines that are created by a chemical reaction between nitrites or other proteins. They've long been shown to be harmful to both humans and animals. In fact, more than 90 percent of nitrosamines have been shown in tests to be carcinogens. However, they are allowed to be freely added to the US food supply. In fact, if you pick up a processed food package such as luncheon meat or bacon, certain beers and some cheese products, you are likely to find that they contain these chemicals. In addition, exposure to nitrates and nitrites are widely found in fertilizers, pesticides and cosmetics. Exposure also occurs through the manufacturing and processing of rubber and latex products.

    Nitrosamines are problematic because they become reactive at the cellular level and that means they can alter gene expression and cause DNA damage. The new research suggests that the cellular alterations that occur as a result of nitrosamine exposure create a process much like accelerated aging in the body and that could spur on the development of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and Type 2 diabetes mellitus.

    "All of these diseases are associated with increased insulin resistance and DNA damage. Their prevalence rates have all increased radically over the past several decades and show no sign of plateau. Because there has been a relatively short time interval associated with the dramatic shift in disease incidence and prevalence rates, we believe this is due to exposure-related rather than genetic etiologies," Dr. de la Monte stated.

    For the study, the researchers graphed and analyzed mortality rates and compared them with increasing age for each disease. Next the scientists looked at the growth of the US population and the annual use and consumption of nitrite-containing fertilizers, annual sales at popular fast food chains (which carry nitrate and nitrate containing foods), sales for a major meat processing company, and consumption of grain (often fertilized with nitrates). For a control, the research team also looked at statistics on the consumption of watermelon and cantaloupe -- foods that not typically associated with nitrate or nitrite exposure.

    The results show that while nitrogen-containing fertilizer consumption increased by 230 percent between 1955 and 2005, its usage doubled between 1960 and 1980 -- and that's the time period just before the insulin-resistant epidemics of type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's Disease began. What's more, the investigators also found fast food chain and the meat processing company sales increased more than eight fold from 1970 to 2005, and grain consumption increased five-fold. That means the US population has been exposed to dramatic increase in foods loaded with nitrates and nitrites.

    Bottom line: the researchers think the increased prevalence rates of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and diabetes cannot be explained on the basis of gene mutations and, instead, are examples of toxin exposure-related disease. "If this hypothesis is correct, potential solutions include eliminating the use of nitrites and nitrates in food processing, preservation and agriculture; taking steps to prevent the formation of nitrosamines and employing safe and effective measures to detoxify food and water before human consumption," Dr. de la Monte, who is a professor of pathology and lab medicine at The Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University, said in a press statement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    Now it would appear most of the research that links nitrate consumption and cancer is on meat, specifically processed meat. But what about nitrate itself?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7200054
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3974695
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18268290

    I mean take a look at the nitrate amount in vegetables

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19439460
    http://www.nutritionj.com/content/8/1/16

    Maybe it is not the nitrate in these processed meats that is linked to cancer but something else in them? In fact, it would appear that nitrates are actually quite protective and have beneficial health effects

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15841216
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18250365
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19252084
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17893272
    What we have here are two different things; the risk of cancer from nitrosamines and the benefits of nitrites on CV health. So the nitrates in the meats may be responsble for an increase in certain cancers (given findings in animals when fed food preserved with sodium nitrate) and not to mention that cooking meats may cause their natural nitrates to react with the degraded aminos and thus form nitrosamines.

    WRT to the post above mine: One thing I noted was that adding ascorbic acid to cured meat also increased the nitrosylation of iron, (forming S-nitrosothiol and then --> S-nitrosoprotein). [NMDA glutamate receptor is regulated by nitroslyation] but that the reverse process of nitrosylation is deemed dinitroslyation which has been shown to have some correlation to Alziemers and oter neuro-degenerative diseases. Perhaps this is the relation? I have no idea.
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    With regard to the intentional NO3 supplement consumption (disregarding the transient consumption that is unavaoidable in meats and vegetables) in the form of KNO3 - is it proven that the concurrent consumption of ascorbic acid (500mg) is effective at preventing the conversion of nitrates to nitrosamines?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    With regard to the intentional NO3 supplement consumption (disregarding the transient consumption that is unavaoidable in meats and vegetables) in the form of KNO3 - is it proven that the concurrent consumption of ascorbic acid (500mg) is effective at preventing the conversion of nitrates to nitrosamines?
    Well then...
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1985394
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9146735
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20100056
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    I prefer to make recommendations that aren't backed by science
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    Sarcastic much

    Is it rate limited? Does 500mg negate 1g net? 2g net...

    If I intentionally (as opposed to transiently in foods and water) consume nitrates I would like to understand with more confidence.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Haha, this is my hope for the forum as well.

    1g of Nitrates is not a concern as far as carcinogenesis is concerned (especially with the vit C and NAC). Rather, the issue is that nitrates can cause "uncontrolled" hypotension if the dose is excessive. This will depend on none other than your resting blood pressure, among other parameters. People who are naturally hypotensive are at greater risk for orthostatic hypotension, reflexive tachycardia, tachypnea, and other potentially ergolytic effects.

    The population at large displays a bell-shaped curve with respect to resting BP, but to err on the side of caution (and ergogenesis), I recommend no more than 600mg in a single bolus for normotensive individuals.

    Here is a solid article from suppversity, which I find to be a fairly consistent source of information (if not a bit anti-supplement at times):

    http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011...es-of-300.html
    I do see that you did mention it here. I was not disputing your statement by any means.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Sarcastic much

    Is it rate limited? Does 500mg negate 1g net? 2g net...

    If I intentionally (as opposed to transiently in foods and water) consume nitrates I would like to understand with more confidence.

    EDIT:


    I do see that you did mention it here. I was not disputing your statement by any means.
    I recall doing some calculations based on data I saw probably 2 years ago...it came out to something like 250mg vit C per 1.5g creatine nitrate, so I'd say 500 is more than enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quadzilla99 View Post
    Yes. I believe Coop mentioned that to me in an other thread. I also use NAC 500mg per his recommendation as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Yes. I believe Coop mentioned that to me in an other thread. I also use NAC 500mg per his recommendation as well.
    NAC comes with the unique benefit of improving the effects of nitrates (can't locate study right now) and has at least 3 studies showing ergogenesis
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    It also worth mentioning the iron hypothesis

    Heme iron from meat and risk of colorectal cancer:
    a meta-analysis and a review of the mechanisms involved

    Abstract
    Red meat and processed meat intake is associated with a risk of colorectal cancer, a
    major cause of death in affluent countries. Epidemiological and experimental evidence
    supports the hypothesis that heme iron present in meat promotes colorectal cancer. This meta-
    analysis of prospective cohort studies of colon cancer reporting heme intake included 566,607
    individuals and 4,734 cases of colon cancer. The summary relative risk of colon cancer was
    1.18 [95%C.I.: 1.06-1.32] for subjects in the highest category of heme iron intake compared
    with those in the lowest category. Epidemiological data thus show a suggestive association
    between dietary heme and risk of colon cancer. The analysis of experimental studies in rats
    with chemically-induced colon cancer showed that dietary hemoglobin and red meat
    consistently promote aberrant crypt foci, a putative pre-cancer lesion. The mechanism is not
    known, but heme iron has a catalytic effect on (i) the endogenous formation of carcinogenic
    N-nitroso compounds and (ii) the formation of cytotoxic and genotoxic aldehydes by
    lipoperoxidation. A review of evidence supporting these hypotheses suggests that both
    pathways are involved in heme iron toxicity.
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    Maybe we should also add in vitamin E and calcium into our ways to minimize risk?

    Red meat and colon cancer: should we become vegetarians, or can we make meat safer?


    Abstract

    The effect of meat consumption on cancer risk is a controversial issue. However, recent meta-analyses show that high consumers of cured meats and red meat are at increased risk of colorectal cancer. This increase is significant but modest (20-30%). Current WCRF-AICR recommendations are to eat no more than 500 g per week of red meat, and to avoid processed meat. Moreover, our studies show that beef meat and cured pork meat promote colon carcinogenesis in rats. The major promoter in meat is heme iron, via N-nitrosation or fat peroxidation. Dietary additives can suppress the toxic effects of heme iron. For instance, promotion of colon carcinogenesis in rats by cooked, nitrite-treated and oxidized high-heme cured meat was suppressed by dietary calcium and by α-tocopherol, and a study in volunteers supported these protective effects in humans. These additives, and others still under study, could provide an acceptable way to prevent colorectal cancer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Maybe we should also add in vitamin E and calcium into our ways to minimize risk?
    I supplement with calcium citrate regardless, though in small doses due to the cardiovascular risk data. I find that my diet is consistently deficient in calcium, vitamin E, and magnesium
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    I agree. Im personally not particularly concerned with a substance being deemed carcinogenic. I mean, exercise cause free radicals, so its not like im going to lay off the weights over it. that said, I have to wonder if there is some kind of smear campaign against nitrates/nitrites; I keep coming across a lot of inconsistent information about nitrates like theyre some kind of bad substance, but when I take them theres nothing but benefit. this article on nitrites said"
    Police believe that Vazquez acquired the sodium nitrate from the meat plant where she worked. The chemical is used to cure and preserve meats but can be toxic in large quantities, due to its property of removing oxygen from the blood"

    full article: http://www.naturalnews.com/023873_so...t_nitrite.html

    I mean, ive heard of infants being susceptible to that, but that effect being impossible after a certain age before they eat solid food. I have to think the articles author is ignorant of that fact. the medical treatments involving nitrites ive read say nothing to the effect of lowered oxygen in their protocalls
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescience View Post
    I agree. Im personally not particularly concerned with a substance being deemed carcinogenic. I mean, exercise cause free radicals, so its not like im going to lay off the weights over it. that said, I have to wonder if there is some kind of smear campaign against nitrates/nitrites; I keep coming across a lot of inconsistent information about nitrates like theyre some kind of bad substance, but when I take them theres nothing but benefit. this article on nitrites said"Police believe that Vazquez acquired the sodium nitrate from the meat plant where she worked. The chemical is used to cure and preserve meats but can be toxic in large quantities, due to its property of removing oxygen from the blood"full article: http://www.naturalnews.com/023873_so...t_nitrite.html I mean, ive heard of infants being susceptible to that, but that effect being impossible after a certain age before they eat solid food. I have to think the articles author is ignorant of that fact. the medical treatments involving nitrites ive read say nothing to the effect of lowered oxygen in their protocalls
    Natural news is an alarmist homeopathy website. That said, overconsumption of nitrates/trites can cause the issues you mentioned, which is why I caution users who start pushing the envelope
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    What would you say is the upper limits of nitrate consumption Coop? No matter how arbitrary the number might be I am interested to hear what it is
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    What would you say is the upper limits of nitrate consumption Coop? No matter how arbitrary the number might be I am interested to hear what it is
    It's so arbitrary because of individual factors and we see variance across the board, but if I know nothing about the person, I'd caution against using more than 800mg of pure nitrate (as nitrate salts) on first attempt
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    Moved the calcium conversation to - Calcium Discussion

    (It was getting a tad off topic)
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Good thread Josh in man... You get my pm?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Good thread Josh in man... You get my pm?
    Nope I dont think so.... And still havent gotten your email
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Nope I dont think so.... And still havent gotten your email
    Lol! Check pms about the name... in regards to the email, well.... just well haha. I still have a lot of finalizing to do on it before I send it out. Finding credible info on bisphenol a. and it's T lowering capabilities are a nightmare... anyways sorry for the derail back to your regularly scheduled program.
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    RE: nitrates and hypotension

    By what mechanism does it produce hypotension?
    Can they be safely and effectively used to mitigate the hypertentive effects of anabolics and or other substances?
    Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    RE: nitrates and hypotension

    By what mechanism does it produce hypotension?
    Can they be safely and effectively used to mitigate the hypertentive effects of anabolics and or other substances?
    Thoughts?
    NO3->NO2->NO conversion increases in hypoxic regions. That is to say yes, if vasoconstriction has gotten excessive to the point of impaired waste removal and oxygen delivery, nitrates will help
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    Yeah, it's just NO3 getting reduced to NO or to S-nitrosothiol and then NO. Then NO does its usual thing and causes vasodilation, but whether that is enough to help...probably in simpler cases of taking something like an anabolic that ups your blood pressure if you don't have underlying issues already, then it may. I just wouldn't trust it in cases where somebody had serious blood pressure issues. Seems like a good idea as a long term and even preventative addition to everyday nutrition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Yeah, it's just NO3 getting reduced to NO or to S-nitrosothiol and then NO. Then NO does its usual thing and causes vasodilation, but whether that is enough to help...probably in simpler cases of taking something like an anabolic that ups your blood pressure if you don't have underlying issues already, then it may. I just wouldn't trust it in cases where somebody had serious blood pressure issues. Seems like a good idea as a long term and even preventative addition to everyday nutrition.
    It helps for reasons besides NO-induced vasodilation of arterioles (afterload). For instance, nitrates also lower cardiac preload
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It helps for reasons besides NO-induced vasodilation of arterioles (afterload). For instance, nitrates also lower cardiac preload
    Of course. It's great overall, but it's subtle as compared to medications so it works for more benign conditions or even transient ones that are self-inflicted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Of course. It's great overall, but it's subtle as compared to medications so it works for more benign conditions or even transient ones that are self-inflicted.
    Agreed.
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    Here to get smarter.
    Excellent thread, sir. Well worth looking into.
  

  
 

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