Supercharging Creatine With Baking Soda
- 10-23-2012, 06:26 PM
Supercharging Creatine With Baking Soda
Supercharging Creatine With Baking Soda: Study Shows Increased Peak Power and Endurance - Plus: How Bicarbonate Could Help You Lose Fat & Build Muscle - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone
Supercharging Creatine With Baking Soda: Study Shows Increased Peak Power and Endurance - Plus: How Bicarbonate Could Help You Lose Fat & Build Muscle
I have written about the "love affair" of creatine and baking soda before. Once, in the "The Pharmacokinetics of Creatine" series (Part I, Part II), where I outlined how you can "brew" your own KreAlkalyn replacement using creatine and NaHCO3, and another time back in 2010, when I discussed the data from a dissertation by James J Barber, who had conducted a preliminary investigation into the joint ergogenic effects of N-Amidinosarkosin (creatine) and NaHCO3 (baking soda) on the repeated sprint performance of recreational athletes.
The complete results of a follow up investigation by Barber, who now works at the Human Performance Laboratory at the California Polytech State University, are going to be published in the next issue of the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (Barber. 2012); and they underline what you, as a diligent student of the SuppVersity, knew all along: Baking soda is not only cheaper than 99% of the commercially available supplements, it is also more ergogenic than the average junk the guy at *** is trying to sell to you.
Soda? But that must be bad for you?! False!
For their study, the researchers recruited a group of 13 healthy previously trained (>5h of aerobic and >2h of HIT per week) young men (age 21.1 ± 0.6 yrs, BMI 23.5 ± 0.5 kg/m²; VO2Max 66.7 ± 5.7 ml/kg-min). In a double-blinded crossover fashion (meaning that each participant had to complete every condition, i.e. "crossover", and neither he, nor the researchers knew whether he had been given the active or the placebo treatment, i.e. "double-blinded"), the men had to consume a supplement containing either
placebo: 20g maltodextrin + 0.5g/kg maltodextrin,
creatine (only): 20g creatine + 0.5g/kg maltodextrin, or
creatine + NaHCO3: 20g creatine + 0.5g/kg baking soda*
* for all supplement the total dosage was divided into four smaller doses, which were to be taken at 9:00 a.m., 12:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m., and 10:00 p.m.; the subjects also completed a 48h dietaryrecall and were asked to consume identical foodsduring each condition
before their peak power, mean power, relative peak power, and bicarbonate concentrations were assessed during six subsequent 10-second repeated Wingate sprint tests on a cycle ergometer with 60s rest periods between each sprint. To preclude any carry-over effects from previous tests, or rather supplementation, each experiment was followed by a three-week washout period.
As you can see in figure 1, Barber et al. were able to confirm his initial results. Interestingly, only the creatine + NaHCO3, yet not the creatine only regimen elicited statistically significant increases in both the relative power output (in W/kg; p < 0.05 for both) and the total power output (p < 0.05 only in the creatine + NaHCO3 trial; cf. figure 1, left). Moreover, the creatine + NaHCO3 supplementation lead to "the greatest attenuation of decline in relative peak power over the 6 repeated sprints." (cf. figure 1, right).
Creatine + baking soda: Additive or synergistic effects
An interesting question the scientists probably ignored, because their *** guy did not yet tell them about the "extraordinary superiority of buffered creatine", is whether the ~37g of sodium bicarbonate the subjects ingested simply added to the beneficial effects the 20g of creatine had on the repeated sprint performance of the athletes, or whether the baking soda also decreased the breakdown and facilitated the uptake of creatine (cf. figure 2)
And while it may not be important for your HIIT sessions, whether the mechanism behind the performance increase is additive of synergistic, it could well make the one-rep difference on a deadlift or bench press competition, in the course of which each additional phosphocreatine molecule counts.
A note on the dangers of "salt": Firstly, baking soda is "only" ~28% sodium, which means that for every 4 grams you ingest you get roughly 1 g of sodium. Secondly, it is arguable how much of the sodium is effectively taken up and will be floating around in your blood. As T. Lakhanisky points out in his dossier for the Belgian government: "The uptake of sodium, via exposure to sodium carbonate, is much less than the uptake of sodium via food. Therefore, sodium carbonate is not expected to be systemically available in the body." (Lakhanisky. 2002) And thirdly, there is more and more evidence that suggests that the chloride rather than the sodium content of common table salt (NaCl = NatriumChloride) is the root cause of "sodium induced hypertension" in "sodium sensitive" individuals / animal models. Only recently, a study by Schmidlin et al. showed that chloride loading induced hypertension in the stroke-prone spontaneously hypertensive rat despite profound sodium depletion (Schmidlin. 2010). So, if you asked me, rather than pointing at salt as the #2 on the list of greatest evils (obviously cholesterol is still #1, here) the medical orthodoxy would be better advised to address the imbalances between sodium and potassium, which are so characteristic of the western diet, instead of painting yet another black and white picture where sodium is the bad guy and potassium the dangerous mineral that cannot be sold OTC in dosages >80mg.... but hey, this would be the topic for a whole new blogpost and as gross as it may sound, the chance that you get diarrhea from the baking soda is probably 1000x higher than the remote possibility of increases in blood pressure. A 1990 study by Luft et al. even found that the blood pressure of 10 mildly hypertensive and normal subjects decreased by 5mmHg after 7 days in the course of which they drank 3 liters of sodium bicarbonate containing water per day (Luft. 1990)
+34% time to exhaustion and +91% total work during HIIT (Feb 29, 2012)
synergistic and superior effects compared to beta alanine (Feb 20, 2012)
protection against stress induced oxidative damage to white blood cells (Nov 28, 2011)
increased performance in tennis players (Nov 4, 2010)
and obviously Barber's own previously reported results, you may understand why I urged our common friend Adelfo Cerame Jr to supplement with bicarbonate throughout his whole contest prep.
Latent metabolic acidosis hampers weight loss and muscle gains
And even when you are not interested in your performance, a 2009 paper by Shoma Berkemeyer is by no means the only, nor the first article that linking an increased hydrogen ion concentrations (latent acidity, which can be countered by dietary bicarbonate) to weight gain and the obesity epidemic (Berkemeyer. 2009, cf. my summary in figure 3).
In view of the fact that even a latent H+ surplus could apparently compromise your efforts to lose fat and build muscle, it should be obvious that you better make sure to have enough alkalizing greens (and optional supplemental bicarbonate; not necessarily 30g, though ;-) in your diet - no matter if the whole acid/base balance issue, esp. the role of a high protein intake, is still very controversial.iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
- 10-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Nice post. I prefer to roll with potassium bicarbonate, thus avoiding the excess sodium issue since I know for sure I already eat more than enough. I don't know if it would work the same with creatine, but it would be worth a try.
The link below is to the Linus Pauling Institute's recommendations for potassium intake.
- 10-23-2012, 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by bioman
In this case...
One, I'd have to read through some of the referenced papers and studies used to build this article before establishing an opinion on the viability of using potassium bicarbonate in place of sodium as I'm unsure if the effects are partial to the specific electrolyte included or the bicarbonate itself...
Two, after reading the inserted reference to salt and hypertension, i don't know that having the extra sodium is necessarily going to be so much of a bad thing...as far as negative effects to health... BUT of course there are many other benefits to having a well balanced electrolyte intake and this would be a good way to get in a lil extra potassium....
I think I'll be doing some more reading after i get back from the gym and reference back to here with my findings.iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
10-23-2012, 11:49 PM
10-24-2012, 12:15 AM
i actually saw thatOriginally Posted by JudoJosh
Before i went through the trouble of posting this article i looked up soda in this forum n saw your thread... n thought, of course he already knew this, LoL.
Still figured it relevant with its mention of the synergy with creatine
iForceHemavol=He-man?-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/187487-hemavol-heman-doughs.htmlCompound 20 Beta log-http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/185396-molding-dough-compound.html
10-24-2012, 12:22 AM
hmm looks like you had the barber stuff posted as well that this was based off of. Didn't see that
10-24-2012, 10:58 AM
I'm not at all sure if potassium bicarb would work either. Like you, I'm just wondering if it does work...would it be better? lol. I may test it out tomorrow when I lift again. Creatine HCl doesn't tend to do much for me and I have K-bicarbonate that I take daily.
One thing I can attest to is that taking K-bc everyday really improves my muscle tone, mood, and energy levels. Specifically, it helps my muscles relax and recover faster from lifting or cardio. May sound weird, but I can actually feel it right after taking it as my body alkalizes and gets the K it needs. It's similar to the feeling of taking beta-alanine, but the tingling is not as pronounced. There is some paper out there that supposedly shows that 12g of K-bc daily boosts muscle gains, but I have been unable to find it.
10-24-2012, 05:23 PM
10-24-2012, 05:39 PM
hmm, that's 50g of baking soda a day, but the results speak for themselves. Probably wouldn't be too bad broken into 4 doses.
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10-24-2012, 05:43 PM
it's also 20g creatine.... i don't think either is necessary, I'm sure a saturation point is reached with far less... and yes splitting up the side is fine, they did it after all.Originally Posted by supermanjow
10-24-2012, 05:47 PM
10-24-2012, 05:51 PM
10-24-2012, 05:57 PM
...Just look at the creatrona supplement that was just released... they are betting on the fact(or did in house research) that it takes much less to acquire the benefits as well.Originally Posted by bioman
I'm guessing that taking 1/4th the dose of each is more then enough to get a real decent effect.
5g creatine and 10g baking soda would be ideal imo.
Maybe 10g baking soda with 4g BA before workout and the creatine combo post workout.
10-25-2012, 09:18 AM
I was only posting the link in case anyone hadnt seen it and was interested in using bicarb. The author of the blog you posted is a HUGE fan of bicar (is actually the guy who sold me on it) and if you search his site you will find lots of good info on it.
10-25-2012, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by JudoJosh
I've been great, just was really busy over summer with my work and so I take a break from the boards as I mentioned when last we talked.
Again... as soon as I came back I started searching about for more of the latest info and found that blog, doing some article jumping as there are always more recommended at the bottom of each of his topics with relatable ideas... when I came across this one and felt it should be shared then saw you recently posted on the topic, it just made me chuckle inside.
Feel free to pm me sometime... wondered if we could discuss a previously mentioned topic.
10-25-2012, 09:31 AM
10-26-2012, 11:19 AM
10-26-2012, 11:21 AM
Interested to read more. Subbed so I don't forget about it
I'm just a dude chasing a dream
10-27-2012, 01:17 PM
Basically using for two reasons..one is to get adequate K. I had chronic muscle tightness prior to using Kbc and I just take it as a sign that I needed it. Secondly, the bicarbonate part is great for alkalizing..which I also probably need as I am not the biggest consumer of vegetables.
All in all, just going by "feel", it has been of great benefit for me...more muscle relaxation, better energy levels, better sleep quality.
10-27-2012, 01:28 PM
Many authorities agree most modern diets are low in potassium and high in acid-forming content. The Linus Pauling Institute of Oregon State University recommends 4.7 grams potassium per day. Recent studies and articles have suggested that adding potassium bicarbonate (KHC03) to your diet program may support healthy blood pressure, bones, muscle mass, endothelial function and dietary acid load.* Recent studies of postmenopausal women showed those who took 12 grams potassium bicarbonate per day (4.7g potassium) showed decreased excretion of nitrogen, calcium and urinary acid; improved bone density, and added lean tissue even without exercise. Suggested dose is 2.7 grams (level 1/2 tsp) potassium bicarbonate 2-4 times per day yielding about 2 to 4 grams potassium. It is very important that each dose be taken on an empty stomach (about three hours from last meal, one hour before next), washed down with a cup or more of lukewarm water. Athletes and bodybuilders have reported increased muscle by stacking one or more of ZMA ECD (cyanotis vaga extract) and methoxyisoflavone with KHC03.
10-27-2012, 01:31 PM
You can also supercharge plain D-Aspartic Acid with sodium bicarbonate. Take them together and the result is Sodium D-Aspartate - much better bioavailability than DAA has.
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10-27-2012, 01:37 PM
10-27-2012, 01:50 PM
10-27-2012, 04:50 PM
10-27-2012, 04:53 PM
10-27-2012, 04:56 PM
id rather turbo charge my DAA than super charge it...
LG Sciences forum representative
10-27-2012, 08:29 PM
Only if we're talking twin turbo..one for low rpm and one for high.
10-27-2012, 09:22 PM
10-28-2012, 02:32 PM
bump.. Any more info on this.. Isn't the sodium bicarbonate the same compound used in Kre?
10-28-2012, 08:40 PM
Im not so sure.. i see that it's an ingredient that is in many kreaklyn supplements, but no where can i see what kreaklyn is actually buffered with, study and article searched for a couple hours now...Originally Posted by mcc23
Regardless reg creatine monohydrate is better. The direct attachment of buffering compounds to creatine(eg kreaklyn) actually reduces its absorption and its uptake into the muscles.... where as an indirect inclusion of NaCHO3 (sodium bicarbonate) alongside standard creatine monohydrate will allow for a correctly buffered ph environment within the stomach as well as add its own benefits to overall endurance, strength and muscle growth... it also allows the standard creatine monohydrate which is much more readily taken into muscle cells to not be impeded by that direct buffering attachment.
So kreaklyn<creatine monohydrate<creatine monohydrate+ sodium bicarbonate
So you can see the end product is not always equal to the sum of its parts(given that sodium bicarbonate is what's used to directly buffer kreaklyn).
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Am.com
10-29-2012, 11:44 PM
I'm about to start my course of baking soda supplementation today. Already been taking creatine and beta alanine for a while, so adding this in should hopefully shine through as to what it adds individually.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Am.com
10-30-2012, 12:09 AM
http://suppversity.blogspot.de/2011/...netics-of.htmlOriginally Posted by Sourdough
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Am.comTiming creatine away from meals would be option #2, option #1, on the other hand, would entail supplementing with some strong alkalizing agent such as sodium or potassium bicarbonate and in fact, this is exactly what KreAlkalyn, the purported "super-creatine" is - a ph-buffered creatine-monohydrate product.
10-30-2012, 01:22 AM
^^^ so while potassium bicarbonate can be used to buffer the acidic environment in the stomach, it seems sodium(Na) itself plays more elaborate roles in optimizing creatine uptake then just it's role when coupled with bicarbonate.(as explained further along in the same article linked above).
This isn't even including the possibility of unique benefits attributable to NaCHO3 alone that i don't know are universally applicable to its counterpart KCHO3.
But I'm sure it goes without saying having a surplus in both these precious electrolytes is far far better than lacking either or both.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Am.com
10-30-2012, 10:03 AM
The Na fraction being a better transporter seems plausible. No reason one couldn't mix the two, just to insure you're getting some decent K levels. I have taken Kbicarb pre WO many times and does seem to help with cardio endurance as well as overall buffering.I'll often drink down several grams prior to going into the steam room for an extra boost to muscle relaxation and detox.I do wish that the bicarbs tasted better..bleh.
10-30-2012, 10:55 AM
10-30-2012, 12:42 PM
More is always better, lol. Do not discount that statement as it is the pillar of all body building exercise science!
More Better BiO
10-31-2012, 09:42 AM
10-31-2012, 11:59 AM
Mostly joking, but it is true that in this arena we explore every single possible avenue that could yield better results. Bearing in mind that this is just one study without a huge sample size, I tend to view it as either bunk or they are onto something. Since the ingredients are so cheap its just fun to see if its the latter.
Here's an ad I just wrote for MuscleTech...
"NaCHO3 and creatine mono is 100% better at delivering 1%gains than creatine mono alone!"
10-31-2012, 12:23 PM
10-31-2012, 12:51 PM
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