RPN Havoc Log, 42 y/o male

[Webdango]

I am running the log on my own site (sig), but will copy here since rules say no posting links to external log.

I've read interesting things about Havoc, so I thought I'd give it a try. My progress has crawled to a halt over the last year-and-half; I injured my back summer of 06 and never got back into heavy squats and deadlifts, which had been yielding good results for about 4 months before the injury.

Combine this with me being 42 years old and you have all the ingredients for a guy about to give up on gaining and just focus on maintenance.

After reading about Havoc, I thought I'd try to see if I can still add some muscle....

Background: been lifting for over 20 years, on the ectomorph scale I'm a 10. All natural - never used.

Will try to get some pictures up

Best lifts:
Bench: 285 (9 years ago - can't flat bench anymore because of elbows!)
Squat: 365 (summer 06 right before injury)
Deadlift: 435 (summer 06 right before injury)

Supps:
Havoc pulse dosing M/W/F
Cycle Support on Havoc days
ErgoPharm 1-NO pre-workout supp on Havoc days
Integrated Supplements Whey Protein Isolate (28g per) 4x on workout days, 2x on off days
Creatine 10mg/day
Glucosamine 5mg/day


Friday 4 Jan (20mg Havoc)
Weight: 184.5
Morning Protein
Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/1-NO 60 mins before workout (9:30am)
Havoc 10mg 30 mins before workout
Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/Havoc 10mg after
After work protein

Workout
Squats (smith) 135x5, 160x5, 185x5, 215x3
Inc Press 115x5, 130x5, 155x5, 170x3
Underhand Pulldowns 120x5, 135x5, 155x5, 180x3
Clean to Press 95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x3
Yates Row 135x5, 135x5, 135x5
30 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)

About 3 minutes after I took the 1-NO, I had this intense tingling rush the spread up my chest and neck into my face. Weird.

Didn't notice anything else special. Energy was good, felt sort of hyper. Suspect the 1-NO. No sides. Weights were easy, but I'm starting light.

 

[Webdango]

Jan 7

Just protein 2x a day over the weekend
Ran 2 miles on Sunday

Monday, Jan 7 (30mg Havoc)
Morning protein
Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/1-NO 45 mins before workout
Havoc 10mg 30 mins before
Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/Cycle Support/Havoc 10mg after workout
Protein/Havoc 10mg upon arriving home after work (5:00pm)
Protein 9:00pm

Workout
Weight: 187
Squats (smith) 140x5, 165x5, 185x5, 215x5
Inc Press 115x5, 130x5, 155x5, 170x5
Underhand Pulldowns 120x5, 140x5, 160x5, 180x5
Mil Press 100x5, 110x5, 120x5, 130x5
Yates Row 135x5, 135x5, 135x5
30 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)

Got the weird rush from the 1-NO again.... Just to be sure is wasn't me being a psycho, I gave some to a co-worker who also lifts. About 3 minutes later he told me his face felt as though he'd just dry shaved and then splashed on aftershave and that his fingertips tingled too. So it's not just me. I picked 1-NO because no caffeine or other stims - wonder what causes the tingling?

We went to the gym at the same time, we don't workout together. He later told me his energy was more than normal, but he felt more tired after his workout than usual. He's not taking any other supps.

 

[Webdango]

Jan 8

Took cold measurements:

Neck: 15.5"
R Upper flexed: 15.25"
L Upper flexed: 15"
R forearm: 12"
L forearm: 11.5"
Chest (relaxed): 43"
R Leg flexed mid-thigh: 22"
L Leg flexed mid-thigh: 22"
R Calf: 15"
L Calf: 14.75""

No weights today; 1.5 hours Muay Thai training.

morning protein w/6 oz orange juice
mid-morning protein/cycle support/creatine/glucosamine
mid-afternoon protein w/water
evening protein after Muay Thai

Had a headache come on after Muay Thai, but that happens occasionally because I sweat so much. I down 32oz of water during the 1.5 hours of training too. I weighed 186.5 right before I went to bed. I usually lose a pound or 2 of water weight from Muay Thai....

 

[Webdango]

Wednesday, Jan 9 (30mg Havoc - 3rd dose)
Morning protein w/8oz orange juice
Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/Cycle Support/20mgs Havoc 60 mins before workout
1-NO 30 mins before workout
Protein/Havoc 10mg after workout
Evening Protein w/8oz orange juice

Weight: 187

Workout
Squats: 140x5, 165x5, 185x5
Deadlift: 230x5, 255x5, 280x5
Inc Press: 120x5, 135x5, 150x5
Pec Dec: 125x5, 140x5
Seated Row: 125x5, 140x5, 155x5, 175x5
Clean to Press: 85x5, 100x5, 115x5
Dips x 15
Cable curl 85x12
20 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)
15 mins stretching

Got the same tingle from the 1-NO. I need to look that stuff up and see what's in it. Not supposed to have any stims....

Felt pumped today. I don't usually feel a pump because I do compound exercises with (for me) medium heavy weight only 5 reps. I had a noticeable pump in my chest and triceps after doing the inclines (I use a shoulder width grip). My arms were tight after finishing with the dips and curls. Also had some back pump that was nagging me during deads. Read that Taurine can help with that - might get some. Also noticed a tight back last night during Muay Thai.

My headache from last night persisted into this morning. I was drinking a ton of water, peeing like every 30 minutes. Was barely noticeable by the time I went to the gym and faded out during my workout. No headache now. Dunno if it's leftover from last night or not.... Noticed that my eyes felt drier and crustier than usual this morning. My elbows bothered me less today while working out than usual.

I'm feeling stronger and think I look a bit 'harder', but that might be placebo effect. The pump I got today was definitely real. I'm not near my max weights from when I was strongest, but I'm keeping my form strict.

Ass to heels on squats
Clean to press from the thighs with minimal legs (front row to press)
Shoulder width grip on the press, 2 secs down, slight pause on the chest, explode up
No rocking on the rows
Hips low on the deads

So far so good!

 

[Webdango]

Photos:

Caveats:
No posing experience
Posing cold
No tan
Just ate dinner
42 years old!

 

[FrankJ]

Why bother with the pulse? User feedback says it shuts you down just as much but produces less gains.

 

[Webdango]

Why bother with the pulse? User feedback says it shuts you down just as much but produces less gains.

I did a ton of reading before deciding to pulse. The threads I read (mostly here by Bloute and Dr. D) seemed to support the consensus that because of Havoc's half life, you didn't get as much shut down with the pulse, and that pulsing would be easier on the liver.

 

[dsade]

Trying to sneak this through unnoticed, eh?

Subscribed

 

[FrankJ]

I did a ton of reading before deciding to pulse. The threads I read (mostly here by Bloute and Dr. D) seemed to support the consensus that because of Havoc's half life, you didn't get as much shut down with the pulse, and that pulsing would be easier on the liver.

Thats "in theory" read the logs of people who pulsed.

 

[Trauma1]

You're going to love havoc I'll be following your progress. Good luck with the log!

 

[JJC]

Got the weird rush from the 1-NO again.... Just to be sure is wasn't me being a psycho, I gave some to a co-worker who also lifts. About 3 minutes later he told me his face felt as though he'd just dry shaved and then splashed on aftershave and that his fingertips tingled too. So it's not just me. I picked 1-NO because no caffeine or other stims - wonder what causes the tingling?

The Beta Alanine in the 1-NO is causing the tingle. It's normal. Do some research on Beta Alanine for more information.

In the meantime, lookin good! I'm def gonna follow your progress since your size and body type is very similar to mine and I would like to pulse an epithio product in the future! Good luck!

 

[Webdango]

Thats "in theory" read the logs of people who pulsed.

Thanks Frank

I'm a stone noob at AAS and soaking up as fast as I can. I read logs extensively before taking this step. I wanted to avoid post cycle therapy, limit side effects, and minimize liver effects. The majority of the logs I read reporting pulse dosing as a solution for someone with these goals. So I'll try it and judge for myself.

 

[matthew76]

SuBBeD!

I would recommend that you run this cycle straight thru... Pulsing is just a theory and has no scientific backing.

 

[Trauma1]

Pulsing is just a theory and has no scientific backing.

Matt i see what you're saying here, however modern medicine was built upon many different theories that advanced us to the point we're at today. Pulsing is integrated in modern medicine more often than you would think and it is in my experience applied often with antibiotic(to minimize hepatic/nephro toxic effects while maintaining sufficient blood levels) and long term corticosteroid therapies.

It's used most specifically in people with organ transplantation, auto-immune diseases(rheumatoid arthritis,lupus,crohn's disease) copd, and dermatological issues such psoriasis. Those long term corticosteroid therapies can cause a horrible cushing's syndrome due to chronic exogenous intake. I say if you can attempt to minimize the side/adverse effects while gaining most of the intended benefit of a drug or therapy its worth it in my book.

Edit: Sorry for the hijack webdango :cheers:

 

[Webdango]

Thanks Trauma-

I was beginning to doubt my chosen protocol. I'm not prepped to do any sort of PCT and, due to my age, was looking for a regiment to minimize the stress on my body.

In consideration of a straight-thru cycle in the future, Are there any effective OTC PCT products?

 

[Trauma1]

Thanks Trauma-

I was beginning to doubt my chosen protocol. I'm not prepped to do any sort of post cycle therapy and, due to my age, was looking for a regiment to minimize the stress on my body.

In consideration of a straight-thru cycle in the future, Are there any effective OTC PCT products?

No Problem. I will say that you should ALWAYS have a pct in place prior to beginning any cycle pulse or not. Pulsing should help minimize shutdown, however like anything in life everyone can be effected at a different level.


If you have any other questions regarding havoc you can address them in our RPN section to help limit the clutter in your log. Check out the pct section and do your research on a good pct program as you'll find many knowledgeable guys on this board that will help you out.

 

[Iceman888]

Hey just a suggestion for the OP, possibly try transdermal formestane during your pulse cycle, it may keep sides minimal and increase gains?

*This is just a suggestion someone else should clarify this*

Im using transdermal formestane during my 60mg 5 week epistane cycle. I have 3 weeks left and I have gained 12lbs, and +30lbs to all my lifts, although joint pain is a problem. I have perfect libido, and absolutly no sides at all.

Although im using Nolva for my post cycle therapy.

Edit: Im also getting bloodwork for mid cycle, so ill know how much of my test is shutdown.

 

[Webdango]

Jan 10
Did more research on pulsing and am sticking with it.

Ordered some POST Cycle Support however, and will add that on off-days.

Muay Thai 6:00pm- 7:30pm

Supps
Morning protein w/1% milk
Mid-morning protein/cycle support w/water
Afternoon protein
Before bed protein

I've noticed my back has been tighter than usual, even walking around it starts to tighten up, so I ordered some Taurine; will try 2-3g a day and see if that helps. Chiro appointment tomorrow.

 

[FrankJ]

Dude you need a hardcore post cycle therapy either way or you will be back here in a month complaining about your limp c0ck and zero libido.

Also I dont agree that formestane or "Post Cycle Support" will do anything while on Havoc - its an AI which will lower estrogen - but so is Havoc. You will have low estrogen either way, Havoc shuts you down because it attaches to androgen receptors, which signals your body to stop producing as much testosterone.

You need a Serm and an AI do get your balls back AFTER you are done trust me.

Anyway good luck and I hope you dont screw yourself up.

 

[maynehood171]

Subbed...

I want to see your progress as I'll start my pulse cycle in a couple of weeks...

...though overall some speculate the pulse cycle method I will just have to see for myself...much like you'll have to see what pulsing does for you...good luck!

 

[Webdango]

Jan 11

Supps
Morning protein w/orange juice
Protein,Cycle Support/Creatine/Glutamine/20mg Havoc 1 hour before workout
1-NO 30 mins before workout
Protein/10mg Havoc after workout
Evening protein w/orange juice
Bedtime protein w/1% milk

Weight 186.5
Workout
Squats (smith) 140x5, 165x5, 185x5, 225x3
Inc Press 120x5, 135x5, 160x5, 175x3
CG Pulldowns 125x5, 145x5, 160x5, 185x3
Mil Press 100x5, 110x5, 120x5, 130x3
Yates Row 115x5, 130x5, 145x5
20 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)
Max Dips (23)
Hammer Machine Churls, 55x16

VERY amped today, very positive attitude, tons of energy. Workout was awesome, weight floated. Got very pumped. Guy at the gym I hadn't seen in a couple of weeks asked if I'd changed my workout because I looked 'bigger'. I definitely looked harder and more swollen in the mirror. Sweet. Back pump was noticeable, but manageable.

On the downside, I woke with a runny nose and sore throat this morning. I rarely get sick, 1-2 times a year. Haven't been sick in a while. How ironic that I get a cold 1 week after starting Havoc?

 

[metalman302]

I felt like million bucks also my first week of havoc. I also felt some mild cold like symptoms that only lasted a couple days.

I know that pulsing real AAS was done way back..... as I read in Clarence Bass' "Ripped." He pulsed back in 79 and still got most of the gains, and apparently did not get shut down too bad, they did not even use PCT back then, and he did not mention shutdown like he did with his ED AAS cycle.

FWIW I would not pulse, I took havoc ED and gained a lot of strength and volume, and about 10#s. Others commented that the gains were noticeable.

I would drop the NO to prevent back pumps... plus at about 2 weeks on havoc it will kick in hard and even your regular workout pumps will be very intense and painfull if you are on NO. Are you upping your cals and protein?

 

[Webdango]

I've kept my diet the same (about 80% clean), with the exception of adding the protein supplements. So my cal count is +-around 600 a day due to the protein.

Ideally, I'd like to see my bodyweight stay the same, but lose some fat. Be nice to have a six-pack again....

I like the energy I get from the 1-NO, I'll stick with it uneless the pumps become unmanageable.

12 Jan/13 Jan
Took it easy, no weekend run due to the cold. Symptoms are mild: runny nose, slight sore throat. I think I'm already on the tail end of it.

Supps
12 Jan
Morning protein/cycle support/post cycle support/1mg taurine w/8oz orange juice
afternoon protein
nightime protein w 8oz 1% milk

13 Jan
morning protein w/8oz orange juice
evening protein/cycel support/1mg taurine w 8oz/orange juice
nightime protein/post cycle support w/8 oz 1% milk

Felt kinda run down most of the weekend, no doubt due to the cold....

 

[Webdango]

14 Jan

Supps
am Protein/1mg Taurine w/8oz orange juice
protein/cycle support/20mg havoc 60 mins before workout
1-NO 30 mins before workout
Protein/10mg Havoc after workout
after work protein w/8oz milk
bedtime protein w 8ox/orange juice

weight 188
workout
Squats 5x150,5x170,5x195,5x225
Incline Press 5x120,5x140,5x155,5x175
Underhand Pulldowns 5x125,5x145,5x160,5x185
Mil Press 5x100,5x110,5x120,5x130
Yates Row 5x105,5x120,5x140
Dips x max dips (25)
Hammer Strength Seated Curl 55xmax (18)

Was feeling sort of off today in the morning, maybe because of the cold, though the only symptom I have left is a slightly runny nose. The 1-NO perked me right up though, and by the time I got to the gym I was feeling ready to go.

Got all weights easily, zipped through the workout, only rest 45 - 60 seconds between sets, sometimes even faster. Another guy at the gym saw me and asked if I'd changed my workout. I definitely felt fuller and bigger, esp my upper arms and shoulders. Back pump was still there, but manageable.

My primary goal with Havoc was to trim some fat. With that in mind, I measured my mid-section. Should have done it at the start.

Parallel to floor where I wear my pants (2 inches below navel): 35"
Around midsection at navel: 35.75"

I'm sorta feeling like a fat bastard, considering I was 29 when I graduated college....

 

[Webdango]

Today is normally Muay Thai after work, but I have a dental appointment on the other side of town and I'm not going to fight traffic to get back, so no workout today.

I'm feeling pretty lethargic anyway.... my cold lingers, having resolved to sinus congestion. My right shoulder is bothering me too, a dull ache that came on yesterday evening. My lower back is also very tight and bugging me....

Supps:
a.m. protein/1mg taurine w/orange juice
noon protein/cycle support/1mg taurine w/water
2 tabs post cycle support before leaving work
evening protein w/1% milk

 

[Webdango]

16 Jan

Supps
a.m. protein/1mg taurine w/orange juice
protein/creatine/glutamine/20mg Havoc w/water 60 mins pre-workout
1-NO/1mg taurine 15 mins pre-workout
protein/cycle support/10mg Havoc w/water post-workout
afternoon protein
evening protein

weight: 190

workout
Squats 150x5,170x5,195x5
Deads 240x5, 265x5, 290x5
Incline Press 120x5, 140x5, 155x5
Pec Dec 90x10, 105x10
Seated Row 125x5, 145x5, 160x6, 180x5
Clean to Press 90x5, 100x5, 115x5
Dips Max
Hammer Strength Seated Curl 60xMax
20 mins heavy bag work
Stretching

My cold is still hanging on by it's fingernails. Runny nose and some post nasal drip irritating the back of my throat. Sneezing and blowing my nose all the time is getting old.

Energy during the workout was moderate to low, although I got all weights and reps easily. My right should is still bothering me, though I had no problems doing my routine. My back was good through the work out - no worse or better than usual - but once I started my bag work it tightened up very quickly. I had to cut that short, and my stretching too. Once I got back into a good chair at the office it settled down, but it was really bothering me for a while.

 

[Trauma1]

Are you using a stim to combat the lethargy? Sorry to hear about that stubborn cold lingering, but keep pushing forward my friend and you'll be rewarded with great results in the end.

 

[Webdango]

Thanks for the pep talk Trauma. No stims, except for the morning cup of coffee. I think my low energy was more due to a poor night's sleep and the tail end of my cold.

I felt better yesterday, had a very good Muay Thai session. Only challenge was my back. Not sore, but tight. I gritted teeth and pushed through the Muay Thai, but it sure felt good when I finally settled into my drivers seat for the 25 minutes home. By the time I stepped out of my car, I was OK.

Back in the gym today....

 

[dsade]

Good sleep is second only to good diet for gains and health.

:::waves finger chastisingly:::

 

[crader]

Hmmmm dont listen to him, he keeps me up all the time at night, wakes me up because he cant sleep

 

[Webdango]

Sleep? What is this thing called sleep? I have heard of it....

Between getting my two kids into bed and rising at 5:00am to drive to work, I average around 6 hours a night during the week. I've gotten used to it though...

 

[Webdango]

18 Jan

Supps
a.m. protein w/orange juice
protein/creatine/glutamine/20mg Havoc w/water 60 mins pre-workout
1-NO/1mg taurine 15 mins pre-workout
protein/cycle support/10mg Havoc w/water post-workout
evening protein

weight: 190

workout
Squats 150x5,170x5,195x5,235x3
Incline Press 120x5, 140x5, 155x5,180x4
Underhand Pulldown 125x5, 145x5, 165x6, 190x4
Mil Press 95x5,105x5,115x5,130x3
Dips Max (30)
Hammer Strength Seated Curl 65xMax (17)
25 mins heavy bag work
Stretching

Feeling great today! Energy back up, 95% over the cold, had a fantastic workout - got all weights and reps easily. Was thinking I might have started this 4x5 routine a little to conservatively.

Plenty of energy, positive attitude. Back pump slight, much better than Wednesday and during Muay Thai the night before.

 

[GotTest]

Glad to see another "old guy" like me jump on the Epi train.
I just started an Epi 30mg/day Prop 90mg/day stack a couple days ago.

Man, are you really taking 1mg/day Taurine?
I would take 4-6 GRAMS/day to keep those back pumps at bay.
It helps big time. You'll know when they hit you!

Good luck with the Havoc! I'll be watching!

 

[Trauma1]

Man, are you really taking 1mg/day Taurine?
I would take 4-6 GRAMS/day to keep those back pumps at bay.

Agreed, I keep the taurine in the 3-5 grams/day range and it usually works out well. Back pumps when you get them can become a complete hinderance while training.

 

[Corona]

I ran a 4wk cycle of Havoc last August saw awesome results was a great cutter. 3 caps a day spread evenly Backpups were not that bad. Gained about 6 lbs lean mass kept all of it.Going to run another cycle spring early summer.Suggestions for a good stack are welcomed

 

[TheAnimalG]

I ran a 4wk cycle of Havoc last August saw awesome results was a great cutter. 3 caps a day spread evenly Backpups were not that bad. Gained about 6 lbs lean mass kept all of it.Going to run another cycle spring early summer.Suggestions for a good stack are welcomed

What did you use for PCT?

 

[Corona]

I used Lg's Formadrol Extreme Had an extra bottle left from a Methyl 1 D Cycle . Worked out great.

 

[Webdango]

19/20 Jan

GotTest - that should be 1g, not mg, but I will bump up per your advice.

No exercise over the weekend....

I did, however, build the Mother of All Treeforts for my kids...

The area, the entrance, the path, framing 1,2,3, finished 1,2,3,4

 

[Trauma1]

Awesome tree fort :thumbsup:......kids must be psyched!

 

[GotTest]

Man, don't let my kid's see that. They'll want one in the front yard.

 

[crader]

Sweet fort. I bet the kids loved it. Building that must have been a workout in itself.

 

[Webdango]

Thanks for the props all. The fort is a confirmed hit. Looks as though I might be roped into a sleep out sometime soon however.

Building that must have been a workout in itself.

Talk about back a back pump... I was some kind of sore by the time it was all done, especially my little soft girlie hands.

 

[Webdango]

Jan 21
MLK Day is a holiday for my company, so I stayed home and did
PFR (post fort recovery)

Did my sups
Protein x 4
Cycle Therapy
Post Cycle Therapy
Taurine (3g)

Jan 22
My right groin and lower back were really bothering me, so I skipped Muay Thai. Dunno if my back is due to Havoc or if I'm just having a flare....

Did my supps:
Protein x 4
Cycle Therapy
Post Cycle Therapy
Taurine (3g)

Jan 23
a.m. protein w/orange juice/1mg taurine
protein/creatine/glutamine/tauarine/20mg Havoc w/water 60 mins pre-workuot
1-NO w/water 15 mins pre workout
protein/cycle therapy/taurine w/water post-workout
after work/before bed protein w/orange juice

weight: 190

Workout
Squats 155x6,180x6,205x6
Deadlifts 245x5,270x5,300x5
Inc Press 125x5,140x5,160x5
Pec Dec 100x10,100x10
Seated Row 130x5,145x5,165x5,185x5
Clean to Press 95x5,105x5,120x5
Weighted Dips 25 x Max (15)
Seated Hammer Strength Curls 60 x Max (18)
Dips x Max (15)
20 Minutes heavy bag work
Stretching

Workout felt good, got a great pump, looking ever bigger, hit all weights and reps easily - but then I'm only working at around 75% - 80% max.

My groin has been bothering me for about a week now - I must have strained it training Muay Thai. Thankfully, it doesn't bother me when I do squats (or deads), only when I do bag and Muay Thai work. Building the fort did a number on my back. I got through my workout OK, but it was really tight by the end. Hard to say if it's the Havoc and supps or not, since I'd occasionally flare anyway and have back problems. Back problems suck.

I was hoping to see some diminishment of joint pain with the Havoc, thinking it would promote healing, but no dice. My elbows and right shoulder are really bothering me today. I suspect the weighted dips. My mind still thinks I'm 23, but my body knows the truth.

Fell off the wagon last night. Took my wife to dinner to celebrate our 17th anniversary, had 2 glasses of chardonnay. Yummy.

So lemme ask: what's the opinion on taking pain relievers while using Havoc. I've been avoiding all medications (and alcohol except for last night), but I sure could use a couple of aspirin right now.

 

[maynehood171]

Jan 21

Jan 22
My right groin and lower back were really bothering me, so I skipped Muay Thai. Dunno if my back is due to Havoc or if I'm just having a flare....

Building the fort did a number on my back. I got through my workout OK, but it was really tight by the end. Hard to say if it's the Havoc and supps or not, since I'd occasionally flare anyway and have back problems. Back problems suck.

I was hoping to see some diminishment of joint pain with the Havoc, thinking it would promote healing, but no dice. My elbows and right shoulder are really bothering me today. I suspect the weighted dips. My mind still thinks I'm 23, but my body knows the truth.

So lemme ask: what's the opinion on taking pain relievers while using Havoc. I've been avoiding all medications (and alcohol except for last night), but I sure could use a couple of aspirin right now.

At 20mg of Havoc I started experiencing the lower back and joint pain as well. I mean, I NEVER have lower back pain to do bi's or shrugs even...hell cleaned my apartment the other night and was suffering...

I read here in the forums and in other sources that Tylenol stresses the liver as-is...so personally I've been staying away from it on cycle PERIOD...but I have loads of Lidocaine patches that I use for my back or whatever else ales me which is what other lifters/members have suggested instead of oral pain relievers and/or NSAIDs...go to the doctors and tell them you prefer lidocaine patches as you hurt your back building a tree fort for the kids :head:

Good job with the log btw...

 

[Webdango]

Thanks for the patch suggestion, although that doesn't address my immediate discomfor,t and the (no doubt) future discomfort I'll experience tonight at Muay Thai....

Anyone else with some safe pain relief options while cycling? Could I just go ahead and pop 2 aspirin?

 

[crader]

Don't take tylenol on Havoc, maybe a few ibuprofen if you have to. Or capsacian rub if its muscle related.

As for joints are you on a good cissus?

 

[Webdango]

Ibuprofin huh, I might try some. I don't have any handy at my desk at the moment though. What about aspirin? Could I take a couple before I head out to Muay Thai tonight?

Not taking any joint supps except for glucosamine. Might try some chrondroitin though. The groin thing, which is bothering me the most right now, isn't a joint problem (I don't think anyway). Is the Cissus Joint Support any good? I've had chronic elbow pain for years.....

 

[Trauma1]

Ibuprofin huh, I might try some. I don't have any handy at my desk at the moment though. What about aspirin? Could I take a couple before I head out to Muay Thai tonight?

Not taking any joint supps except for glucosamine. Might try some chrondroitin though. The groin thing, which is bothering me the most right now, isn't a joint problem (I don't think anyway). Is the Cissus Joint Support any good? I've had chronic elbow pain for years.....

Cissus would be a good option for you to try for the joint pains. Both ibuprofen and aspirin are metabolized hepatically(liver), so essentially they have the potential to add stress when used in conjunction with havoc. However since this is a pulse you should be able to get away with a low/moderate dose of ibuprofen(400mg) or aspirin(162mg) on the days you don't pulse the havoc to minimize potential stress, however i don't advise it and would only do so if it's absolutely needed. I'd definately give the cissus a go. Many people absolutely swear by its ability to help with joint pain.

 

[FrankJ]

Also ibuprofen inhibits protein synthesis - effectively reducing the gains you will see from the Epistane.

Id go with SuperCissusRX from USPLabs, did wonders for my elbow and achilles.

 

[Webdango]

Thanks for the advice. I've decided to avoid taking anything as much as possible while using Havoc. This morning, however, I had a pretty bad headache and caved; I took 200mg of ibuprofen. I hope it helps!

Should I try the Cissus on cycle or wait until I'm done? I feel as though I'm taking a lot of stuff. Should I mix in something else?

24 Jan
Supps
morning protein/cycle support/1.5g taurine w/water
mid-morning - protein/2 tabs Post Cycle Support w/water
protein/1.5g taurine w/water 120 mins pre-Muay Thai
before bed protein/1g taurine

Had Muay Thai training, 6 - 8pm. My hip flexibility has really gone down, even though I've continued my stretching regime. Must be the squats. A guy I hadn't seen in a week asked what I was doing in the gym - told me I looked bigger than last time he saw me. My back still bothering me - Havoc or a falre? Dunno. I worked through it.

I live sparred for the first time (I've been training 8 months) and ended up with some guy about half my age and 7 fights under his belt kicking me around the ring like I was a soccer ball. Another reason I needed the ibuprofen. I've got some serious aches and pains. I did manage to clinch a few times, and once I got hold of him, I was able to control, as I had about 15 pounds on him. So I did manage to plant a few knees and show him the old lion still had a few fangs left.

So I'm all done with training, I wander (limp) out to my car, pop the trunk, put in my gear, close the trunk... DOH! After popping it, I'd put my keys back in my gear bag. Why? Because I'm old and stupid and tired and beat up.

I've locked my keys in before and can get it open with a coat hangar. Fortunately, I was able to find one. Twenty minutes later, with the help of a fellow Muay Thai-er holding his cell phone as a light, I got the door open by sliding the coat hangar in snagging the power door lock switch.

Had a mild headache when I went to bed. Slept like crap - probably ended up with about 4-5 hours of restless snoozing. I don't attribute it to anything - sometimes I just have a bad night.