Vicaine Log with Review

[tyga tyga]

First, S/O to wesley and mike for shipping me a full bottle of vicaine to log. This will be detail oriented towards mental acuity, stimulation, pain relief and opiate like effects (if any).

I am shipping 10 caps to a member on the board so the duration of this log will be what 50 caps can (or can not) do for me.

Goal is to only take this on days I don't lift; which is typically three days.

Again, thanks to the MAlabs team.

Stats
155lb
5'5"
28yr old
*most recent experience would be with kratom (haven't used in a while because I could see it becoming a problem) and in the past (6-7yrs ago) experience with benzos/opiates.

Will take recommended serving size (2 caps) tomorrow morning on an empty stomach first thing waking about an hr before church.

 

[BamBam0319]

Subbed!

 

[LeanEngineer]

Awesome! In to see how you like it.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Nice. Thanks Tyga.

 

[sandpig]

If you are going to take it first thing on an empty stomach, may I recommend only one cap the first time?

 

[tyga tyga]

Subbed!

Awesome! In to see how you like it.

Nice. Thanks Tyga.

Thanks guys.

And, you're welcome Mike. Thanks for the bottle

If you are going to take it first thing on an empty stomach, may I recommend only one cap the first time?

Far to late my friend lol

 

[sandpig]

Well how did it go?

 

[DemntedCowboy]

Subbed

 

[tyga tyga]

First dose

Took two capsules with roughly 8-10oz of water on an empty stomach around 730a

First hour
-product kicked in within half hour
-slight head buzz
-increase in "tunnel vision"
-slight improvement in focus (able to stay into the sermon and text without just whipping my bible open and reading instead)
- euphoric
-mild, very mild energy
-words/terms seemed to come to my mind quicker

Second hour
-everything is the same as hour one with the exception of the head buzz wore off

Third hour
- energy almost gone
- verbal fluidity/recall began to ween

Fourth hour
- back to normal
- crashed, hard.
- yawning, heavy eyes (reminds me of a red strain kratom ~ aka opiates)

Now, in all fairness I typically have 200-300mg caffeine in the morning. I obviously did not follow suite with that considering the product. So, the crash could be associated with the absence of my usual stimuli.

We'll see how the following doses pan out.

 

[Mike Arnold]

First dose

Took two capsules with roughly 8-10oz of water on an empty stomach around 730a

First hour
-product kicked in within half hour
-slight head buzz
-increase in "tunnel vision"
-slight improvement in focus (able to stay into the sermon and text without just whipping my bible open and reading instead)
- euphoric
-mild, very mild energy
-words/terms seemed to come to my mind quicker

Second hour
-everything is the same as hour one with the exception of the head buzz wore off

Third hour
- energy almost gone
- verbal fluidity/recall began to ween

Fourth hour
- back to normal
- crashed, hard.
- yawning, heavy eyes (reminds me of a red strain kratom ~ aka opiates)

Now, in all fairness I typically have 200-300mg caffeine in the morning. I obviously did not follow suite with that considering the product. So, the crash could be associated with the absence of my usual stimuli.

We'll see how the following doses pan out.

Nice.

If you are accustomed to consuming 200-300 mg of caffeine every morning, you may want to continue doing so. Why? Caffeine is a adenosine receptor antagonist, so your body is likely dependent on that particular type of stimulation. In its absence you will probably experience lethargy, headache, etc, as the stims in Vicaine work through very different mechanisms than those found in caffeine. So, you can't really "replace" caffeine with Viicaine.

If anything, the Vicaine probably prevented you from "crashing" after skipping your morning caffeine dose, as I have only seen one other customer say they crashed after taking Vicaine (but that individual took 3 caps and had ZERO tolerance to all stims, including caffeine). You will know soon enough.

 

[tyga tyga]

I'll keep that in mind Mike Arnold.

For the next dose I'm going to go this route:

200mg caffeine upon waking

1.5-2hr later three caps vicaine

I'll take notes again (like my initial review). Then try:

200mg caff upon waking
1.5-2hr later two caps vicaine and then eventually-

Three caps vicaine solo

You know, for science.

 

[ELROCK]

Subbed. Good detail so far Tyga.

 

[tyga tyga]

So, 2/3 of my employees use nootropics.

I brought the vicaine to work for them to try.

Employee 1-
400lbs took one cap
*mild euphoria
*little to no mental stimulation
*will try two caps tomorrow

Employee 2-
240lb took two caps
*very euphoric
*shakey hands
*constricted pupils
*made note of clarity and VERY talkative
*worked hard for 2.5hrs
*hard crash/comedown

Employee 3
180lb took two caps
*Talkative
*made note of tunnel vision
*asked numerous times if there was heavy stimulants because of the focus
*euphoric feeling

I tried 3 caps (200mg caffeine two hours before vicaine). Also, had my protein +MCT oil about an hour before the vicaine.

-effects were the same as when I dosed two caps on an empty stomach but somewhat blunted. I believe the fed state lessened the effects.
-Knocked out paperwork quickly.
-again, mental sharpness/concentration was HIGH
-NO crash at all. Just kind of faded
-again, the effects lasted four hours or maybe a tad more

I may use the product four days in a row then take a break (to find the best dosing protocol). We'll see.
Mike Arnold the addition of caffeine, without a doubt fixed the awful sedated/crash I had yesterday. So, thank you.

 

[thebigt]

if I take 200mg caffeine about a hour after taking vicaine it extends the effect for me...but if you got 4 hours out of it that's right on the money, imo.

 

[sandpig]

Four hours is great for an OTC product IMO.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Super cool that you are also posting the reviews of your "employees". Thanks Tyga.

 

[tyga tyga]

Super cool that you are also posting the reviews of your "employees". Thanks Tyga.

Yeah. Well, one of my guys has bulk tianeptine sulfate. It doesn't even compare to vicaine.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Yeah. Well, one of my guys has bulk tianeptine sulfate. It doesn't even compare to vicaine.

Good to hear. Vicaine is much more than just tianeptine, so it is to be expected. I literally attempted to mimic the effects of a "speedball" (albeit much more safely) by including the most potent dopaminergic compounds available that either weren't controlled substances or prescriptions drugs in the U.S., along with a potent opioid component. However, unlike a real "speedball", Vicaine is far, far safer. It does not cause any of the organ toxicity or multiple system damage that a speedball would...and even supplies several health benefits.

 

[tyga tyga]

Oh I know its a more comprehensive formula. However, we both know how tianeptine "feels" and the effects it gives.

Also, has anyone taken three caps two times in one day?

 

[tyga tyga]

Three caps is optimal for me.

-three caps @ 6:00am (first thing in the AM on an empty stomach) with 10oz black coffee

-35min later, slightly constructed pupils

- euphoria and head buzz kicked in

- dry mouth has been reoccurring since I've taken three caps (last three days) about 45min after taking vicaine

-body is VERY relaxed while my mind is aware

Now, I'm just waiting for the alertness from the flmodifinal and rapid thought processing.
Mike Arnold I've given my employee (240lb gentlemen) two caps, twice now. And either he is HIGHLY sensitive or there must be external factors at play but he gets extremely shakey about and hour after taking them. He's taken everything inside vicaine with the exception of sunifiram and flmodafinil.

Thoughts?

 

[ELROCK]

Three caps is optimal for me.

-three caps @ 6:00am (first thing in the AM on an empty stomach) with 10oz black coffee

-35min later, slightly constructed pupils

- euphoria and head buzz kicked in

- dry mouth has been reoccurring since I've taken three caps (last three days) about 45min after taking vicaine

-body is VERY relaxed while my mind is aware

Now, I'm just waiting for the alertness from the flmodifinal and rapid thought processing.
Mike Arnold I've given my employee (240lb gentlemen) two caps, twice now. And either he is HIGHLY sensitive or there must be external factors at play but he gets extremely shakey about and hour after taking them. He's taken everything inside vicaine with the exception of sunifiram and flmodafinil.

Thoughts?

I would definitely think that is a side of the flmodafinil. Modafinil can make me a bit shakey.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Three caps is optimal for me.

-three caps @ 6:00am (first thing in the AM on an empty stomach) with 10oz black coffee

-35min later, slightly constructed pupils

- euphoria and head buzz kicked in

- dry mouth has been reoccurring since I've taken three caps (last three days) about 45min after taking vicaine

-body is VERY relaxed while my mind is aware

Now, I'm just waiting for the alertness from the flmodifinal and rapid thought processing.
Mike Arnold I've given my employee (240lb gentlemen) two caps, twice now. And either he is HIGHLY sensitive or there must be external factors at play but he gets extremely shakey about and hour after taking them. He's taken everything inside vicaine with the exception of sunifiram and flmodafinil.

Thoughts?

He could just be sensitive to the effects of the stim-like compounds in the product. However, there is a good reason Vicaine has such a low dose of caffeine--because FLmoda and caffeine can cause some people to become overstimulated. We don't know why this happens, but only that 1 + 1=4. This is why most regular FLmoda users will caution new users to start out using FLmoda it with no caffeine...and slowly add it in if they still want it.

Compared to traditional OTC stis like ephedrine, DMAA, high-dose caffeine, etc, Vicaine is very unlikely to cause an increase in BP. The research on the compounds within Vicaine demonstrate this. However, the research also shows that if FLmoda is combined with caffeine, it can cause a moderate increase in BP (still significantly less than DMAA or ephedrine). The reason I mention this is because it demonstrates the synergy between FLmoda and caffeine in terms of physical stimulation. Even 150-200 mg is too much for some people, while other people feel completely fine with 300 mg. Personal response can vary widely and is obviously at least partially dependent on tolerance, but you may want to find out if your employee is drinking coffee beforehand or taking caffeine pills...because if he is, you probably have your answer...because I have not seen a single person yet report that they were shaking from Vicaine, even when taking 3 caps. This leads me to believe he is either hypersensitive...or more likely, he is consuming additional caffeine (or other stims) either before or after taking Vicaine. Even if he is consuming caffeine a few hours beforehand, it could easily still be the cause, as it has 4-6 hour half-life in normal people...and up to a 10 hour half-life in those who have trouble metabolizing the drug (about 10-15% of the population). Of course, if he is consuming it afterward it could cause this problem as well.

I would ask him about the caffeine first...and if he says no, it would appear he is just super sensitive.

 

[kisaj]

I would definitely think that is a side of the flmodafinil. Modafinil can make me a bit shakey.

Thinking this. Finils are very unique in how they affect people and I have several varieties from several manufacturers which on any given day can hit differently. Some days are clear clean amazingness and some days are slight strung out uncomfortableness. There are also days that I actually get tired from them and super yawny.

 

[tyga tyga]

Update

Against bottle recommendations I've taken vicaine daily.

Notes:

-haven't had ANY tolerance build up.

- three caps about 2.5hr after eating has served me well

-about 1-2hr of a "head buzz" similar to kratom but without nausea or grogginess following the dissipation of the head buzz

- 3-4hr of mental stimulation still. With no crash (as long as I still take my caffeine like I mentioned earlier on this log)

My employees however continued taking my pills . I'll have to check the bottle when I get it back into my possession but I almost certain there is only a few days left in the bottle.

I know that one guy is buying a bottle for sure (as am I). I'll be following the bottles directions/recommendations after this log though. I want to get rid of ANY "tolerance" build up acute or cumulative that I may have (that I can't "feel"). Also, don't want to build a routine with constantly taking this and in turn becoming addicted.

Any how, this is a good supplement. Obvious with my purchase of another.

 

[tyga tyga]

Update

-three pills is still very effective

-noticed MINOR pain relief from the pills. (I have disc bulges at L3-4 &L4-5) so sometimes I have a tight low lumbar if training gets away from me aka EGO

-haven't noticed any tolerance build up, yet.

 

[ELROCK]

Update

-three pills is still very effective

-noticed MINOR pain relief from the pills. (I have disc bulges at L3-4 &L4-5) so sometimes I have a tight low lumbar if training gets away from me aka EGO

-haven't noticed any tolerance build up, yet.

Have you taken a day off yet?

 

[tyga tyga]

Have you taken a day off yet?

I have not.

 

[ELROCK]

I have not.

You may want to see if the high dose of Tianeptine is giving any type of uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms.

 

[kisaj]

I am going to assume this is sulfate (I've asked) and that tends to have much lower instances of withdrawal due to the way it is released and the slower onset. This is good for a sustained effect, but also limits the feeling of euphoria that you get from sodium. Trust me, try both and they are different animals. Sodium is like an actual high with sulfate being smooth and long lasting without even truly realizing you took something other than just being a little "sunnier and brighter".

 

[tyga tyga]

You may want to see if the high dose of Tianeptine is giving any type of uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms.

Today's my last dose in the bottle (thanks to the guys at work )

I'll have a two week wash out (or more) if I feel there are any symptoms of withdrawal.

 

[ELROCK]

I am going to assume this is sulfate (I've asked) and that tends to have much lower instances of withdrawal due to the way it is released and the slower onset. This is good for a sustained effect, but also limits the feeling of euphoria that you get from sodium. Trust me, try both and they are different animals. Sodium is like an actual high with sulfate being smooth and long lasting without even truly realizing you took something other than just being a little "sunnier and brighter".

Oh I was under the impression it was the sodium version in it. Good to know!

 

[kisaj]

Sodium is dosed 12.5 mg 3x daily on average. If there were 150mg in this, well, we'd have a bunch of zombies walking around. Even for sulfate it is high, but not outside of recreational doses.

I am not encouraging tianeptine use, but if you were to take sodium, you would see how it hits you. It is pretty fun, but VERY easy to see how you could become addicted to it.

 

[tyga tyga]

I am going to assume this is sulfate (I've asked) and that tends to have much lower instances of withdrawal due to the way it is released and the slower onset. This is good for a sustained effect, but also limits the feeling of euphoria that you get from sodium. Trust me, try both and they are different animals. Sodium is like an actual high with sulfate being smooth and long lasting without even truly realizing you took something other than just being a little "sunnier and brighter".

Label says sodium

They're completely different. My co-worker has the sulfate version. But, you nailed the "high" you get from the sulfate (slow and steady for almost two hours)

Have you tried the vicaine yet?

I don't know what to make of this product lol it's good

 

[kisaj]

Yeah, I posted up my detailed review under the log section.

I found that I had to take 3 to really get the desired effects, but it's odd because I know and have taken all of the ingredients and the effect was not the same. I find it to be a fine product and praise the company for actually making something unique.

 

[tyga tyga]

Oh I was under the impression it was the sodium version in it. Good to know!

Says sodium... idk.

 

[kisaj]

Oh my. The label I saw earlier did not specify.

 

[tyga tyga]

Four days of cessation of vicaine from continued daily use of three caps and no "withdrawals".

The only thing I really noticed was the habitual aspect of when I took it. Felt like I was "missing" something. That subsided after the third day.

I do have another bottle coming into Monday afternoon. Will restrict my self to three caps on my heavier workload days (Thursday's and Friday's)

Will post a review after I close out this next bottle.

Might as well keep this going right?

 

[Mike Arnold]

error

 

[Mike Arnold]

Four days of cessation of vicaine from continued daily use of three caps and no "withdrawals".

The only thing I really noticed was the habitual aspect of when I took it. Felt like I was "missing" something. That subsided after the third day.

I do have another bottle coming into Monday afternoon. Will restrict my self to three caps on my heavier workload days (Thursday's and Friday's)

Will post a review after I close out this next bottle.

Might as well keep this going right?

You've been immensely helpful brother. Thank you.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Yeah, I posted up my detailed review under the log section.

I found that I had to take 3 to really get the desired effects, but it's odd because I know and have taken all of the ingredients and the effect was not the same. I find it to be a fine product and praise the company for actually making something unique.

You've said this multiple times now, which leads me to believe that is exactly what you are trying to convey. I will tell you this right now. If you put together this exact combination of compounds in these exact dosages, you would experience the same exact effects you did here...because every ingredient is bought from the best manufacturers, tested, and properly dosed. We spend a LOT of time and money making sure we doing things right...and NO ONE has ever inferred this except you...and PLENTY of people aside from you have had extensive experience with all of these compounds.

You also said earlier that this should be a $45-$50 product. I wasn't going to respond to that before, but I will now because you are implying I am ripping the customer off, when the truth is that you couldn't be more wrong. In fact,I am going to say that my product may be more fairly priced than ANY other product on this site...and I will prove it!

Let me first start out by saying that I know EXACTLY what these compounds cost and you could NOT duplicate this product for even $59.99 (the price I sell it for with the discount) even if you bought every ingredient in bulk. You MIGHT be able to BARELY do so if you buy from the worst or the worst bulk powder sellers--those who are known to be highly unreliable in terms of product quality. I know this to be the case because I not only know what actual overseas compounding pharmacies/manufactures charge, but I also know that multiple people have personally tried to piece this product together by themselves and they FAILED! They couldn't even do it for $59.99, let alone $45...and they publicly posted this...including people on THIS board. To say you could get it for $45 is laughable. I have to buy this stuff in mass quantities to get the prices I do....and you know what it costs me to buy from reliable manufactures?

Before I tell you what I pay (which is something almost NO company will ever do because the customer would realize really quickly just how badly they are getting taken advantage of) let me tell you that Vicaine has one of the lowest profit margins in the OTC supplement industry. That fact alone completely obliterates your claim that it should be sold for $45-$50...because it would also mean that just about every other product sold on this site is even more over-priced because their profit margins, in general, are 2-4X higher!. Do you realize that most of the products you see being sold for $30-$70 dollars cost $7-15 to make. How about ostarine? That **** costs $5 or less to make, even with the bottle cost included...and look at what people are paying for that? I could list several $80-100+ products that cost under $15 to make...and people buy them like crazy!

I pay nearly $30 just to MAKE a single bottle of Vicaine, which is almost UNHEARD of for a product being sold for $59.99...so the next time you say this stuff should be sold for $45, I fully expect you to go into every sub-forum on this site and tell every single company owner that their products should be sold for $7-$15 instead of $30-$70...because that would make it comparable to my product from a profit margin standpoint.

Let me back up for a second. Even if you did use the same exact combination of compounds found in Vicaine, at the same exact dosages, and at the same exact time, unless you have a $200+ scale, you are NOT accurately measuring out mg quantities of all these compounds. That alone makes accurate comparison impossible. But let me guess? You probably have a $500 microgram scale and have used my exact formula before. Heck, you've probably even used my exact formula multiple times now and know exactly what to expect. You must've been using Vicaine before Vicaine was invented. I guess you are the original creator.

I rarely put up posts like this, but you have inferred that my product was overdosed twice now. Therefore, anything "positive" you said about the company means almost nothing in comparison...because claims of under-dosing is about the WORST thing you can say about a supp company...and don't say you didn't mean that, but that is about the only interpretation one can glean from those comments.

 

[kisaj]

Well that was certainly long winded for no gain. If I felt the product was under dosed, I would say that I felt the product was under dosed. In fact, if you are trying to infer anything from my posts I am surprised you picked that out when I've also said that I think your dose for tianeptine sodium is very high. So you could infer that maybe I think that is not too safe....but, I said that the effects are not what I would expect knowing the ingredient profile as well as I do. You are quite upset and I am not going to try to calm you down, but I'm not going to sugar coat a review and if you want honest answers you should be prepared for all sides. Apologies that I did not fit into the framework of the 25 positive reviews you posted up, but again, I never said it was a bad product.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Well that was certainly long winded for no gain. If I felt the product was under dosed, I would say that I felt the product was under dosed. I said that the effects are not what I would expect knowing the ingredient profile as well as I do. You are quite upset and I am not going to try to calm you down, but I'm not going to sugar coat a review and if you want honest answers you should be prepared for all sides. Apologies that I did not fit into the framework of the 25 positive reviews you posted up, but again, I never said it was a bad product.

I could be misinterpreting what you said, but I took it to mean that you were simply surprised that the combination of ingredients and doses provided the intended effects, perhaps because each one in isolation, or some in combination, provided different results than all of them together did. I would think it's due to simply the interaction of ingredients and how their "effects" and/or "feel" changes when combined. I didn't take it to mean you suspected ant sort of foul play at all.

Just my $0.02.

 

[sandpig]

Well that was certainly long winded for no gain. If I felt the product was under dosed, I would say that I felt the product was under dosed. In fact, if you are trying to infer anything from my posts I am surprised you picked that out when I've also said that I think your dose for tianeptine sodium is very high. So you could infer that maybe I think that is not too safe....but, I said that the effects are not what I would expect knowing the ingredient profile as well as I do. You are quite upset and I am not going to try to calm you down, but I'm not going to sugar coat a review and if you want honest answers you should be prepared for all sides. Apologies that I did not fit into the framework of the 25 positive reviews you posted up, but again, I never said it was a bad product.

I am one of those that really likes the product but as I say about every supp, drug, food etc, everyone responds differently

 

[Mike Arnold]

I could be misinterpreting what you said, but I took it to mean that you were simply surprised that the combination of ingredients and doses provided the intended effects, perhaps because each one in isolation, or some in combination, provided different results than all of them together did. I would think it's due to simply the interaction of ingredients and how their "effects" and/or "feel" changes when combined. I didn't take it to mean you suspected ant sort of foul play at all.

Just my $0.02.

No, what he's inferring is that the product's effects aren't matching up with its ingredient profile. Actually, he wasn't inferring that at all...he flat out said it in his first post (the one I responded to here was his 2nd post). Basically, the implication is that the product is under-dosed, as there is no other way to interpret both of his comments when read in context. He came right out and said he has used all these things before and that Vicaine did not provide the same effects. I find it more than a little odd that someone would make that claim when they have NEVER used all of these ingredients together in these dosages.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

No, what he's inferring is that the product's effects aren't matching up with its ingredient profile. Actually, he wasn't inferring that at all...he flat out said it in his first post (the one I responded to here was his 2nd post). Basically, the implication is that the product is under-dosed, as there is no other way to interpret both of his comments when read in context. He came right out and said he has used all these things before and that Vicaine did not provide the same effects. I find it more than a little odd that someone would make that claim when they have NEVER used all of these ingredients together in these dosages.

I guess I just didn't read it all in that context. I also doubt many people have tried ALL of these ingredients TOGETHER (at the same time), but some of us have used most/all of them, just not all together, and that the total isn't quite what you'd expect based on the sum of the parts. If you expect X, Y, and Z from Ingredient 1, and A, B, and C from Ingredient 2, you may expect A,B,C,X,Y,Z from the two together, or you may expect A and X to sort of counter each other, leaving you with B,C,Y,Z, but in reality you may only really notice C and Z prominently from the combo, or you may notice Q that you didn't expect at all.

That's just how I read it, although I admittedly haven't sat down and read it all in one sitting.

 

[kisaj]

I could be misinterpreting what you said, but I took it to mean that you were simply surprised that the combination of ingredients and doses provided the intended effects, perhaps because each one in isolation, or some in combination, provided different results than all of them together did. I would think it's due to simply the interaction of ingredients and how their "effects" and/or "feel" changes when combined. I didn't take it to mean you suspected ant sort of foul play at all.

Just my $0.02.

Weird how you seemed to understand exactly what I typed. If there is something I feel, I have no problem saying it flat out.

So @ Mike Arnold, you are creating a scene with regards to comments about being underdosed as no one has said that except for you, several times. Again, if I felt it was under dosed I would have nothing to lose by saying it, but I did not.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I am one of those that really likes the product but as I say about every supp, drug, food etc, everyone responds differently

Completely agree...and as you know, I've said it many times myself...and I have NEVER responded to anyone like this, even if the review wasn't good (there have been a few). What pissed me off is that his comments (he made two very similar comments) implied that it was under-dosed.

In one post (the one above) he actually said "I know and have taken all of the ingredients and the effect was not the same". What is he saying here? To me it sounds exactly like he is saying that he has used all of these ingredients at the same dosages, and at the same time....and that my product did not provide the same effect. First of all, in order for someone to make that sort of comparison they would have had to use this exact same formula, but he never did, so how can he say "the effect was not the same" if he never actually tried it until now? He can't...unless he is dumb and thinks you can use 6 different things at 6 different times, in 6 different dosages and achieve the same effect. Obviously, that is NOT what he was implying. His implication was clear.

In a previous comment he said my product's ingredient profile did not match up with the effects he had experienced when using these compounds previously. Once again, it sounds very much like he is saying that has tried this exact combination in the same or at least similar dosages. Otherwise, why even make the comparison? There would be no reason to do because he wouldn't be comparing the same thing.

But notice how he changes his wording in his defense response above. Now he claims that he said "the effects are not what I would expect knowing the ingredient profile". Look carefully...because that does not have the same meaning/implication as his previous two comments. Subtle changes in wording can make a BIG difference in how a comment is perceived by others and completely change it meaning. His latest comment comment implies that he is simply guessing how Vicaine should work based on "knowing the ingredient profile", which is very different than saying the effects did not match up with his previous experiences ...or that he has taken all of these ingredients before and the effect was not the same.

I think it is clear what he is getting at in his first two comments and THAT is why it pissed me off. There have been a LOT of people that have a ton of experience with these compounds and NO ONE has ever said anything like this.

He also said that my product was overpriced--he said it was only a $45 product. I let that one go for days, but after his last comment I decided to address it. As you can see by reading my previous response to him, he is VERY wrong. I didn't like that he made a comment like that when he clearly has ZERO clue about what goes in in the supplement industry, what my product costs to make in comparison to other products, or what my profit margin is. I was basically forced to lay out the details of my operation just to prove him wrong and undo the potential damage. You see, when a company is selling their product for $59.99 with a discount and then someone comes along and says that it is only worth $45, they are basically saying that the company is either ripping people off...or that people can buy the same thing elsewhere for less money (neither of which is true).

The truth is that my product has one of the lowest profit margins in the industry (probably the bottom 5%), so to see someone make that comment with such an authoritative tone, when they really have no clue what they are talking about...well, it irked me, especially in light of his other two comments..

 

[Mike Arnold]

Weird how you seemed to understand exactly what I typed. If there is something I feel, I have no problem saying it flat out.

So @ Mike Arnold, you are creating a scene with regards to comments about being underdosed as no one has said that except for you, several times. Again, if I felt it was under dosed I would have nothing to lose by saying it, but I did not.

I know exactly what you said...more than once. You also said my product was significantly overpriced...which you were also very wrong about.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I guess I just didn't read it all in that context. I also doubt many people have tried ALL of these ingredients TOGETHER (at the same time), but some of us have used most/all of them, just not all together, and that the total isn't quite what you'd expect based on the sum of the parts. If you expect X, Y, and Z from Ingredient 1, and A, B, and C from Ingredient 2, you may expect A,B,C,X,Y,Z from the two together, or you may expect A and X to sort of counter each other, leaving you with B,C,Y,Z, but in reality you may only really notice C and Z prominently from the combo, or you may notice Q that you didn't expect at all.

That's just how I read it, although I admittedly haven't sat down and read it all in one sitting.

I understand, brother...and agree completely. However, his comments came across very differently to me when reading them all in context (not all of them are in this thread), which is why I responded the way I did.

 

[kisaj]

I know exactly what you said...more than once. You also said my product was significantly overpriced...which you were also very wrong about.

Yeah man, I'm just going to let you continue to bury yourself here. On PM you seemed very cool and rationale and I felt we had a decent conversation, but they you went Jekyll and Hyde here. I mean, I repeated flat out on PM to you that I did not get the expected results and you turned around and said you saw my post and thanked me for propping up your company for being unique. I am keeping no secrets, I FLAT OUT said what I thought and it wasn't what I expected- not that IT WAS UNDERDOSED.

Something strange is happening here. A poster gives an honest review, repeats said review in private and then gets bashed by the owner in public.