8g/day of Ca-HMB Log with maintenance calories to gain muscle and lose fat

[Justlooking5]

As a continuation of this thread: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/278382-ca-hmb-observations.html
I'm going to be logging my experiences taking 8g of bulk powder Ca-HMB per day, updating weekly.

I am currently on a maintenance calorie diet of about 2,500- 3,000 calories per day, high protein mod carb/fats, with lower carbs in the evenings.
I weigh about 221 lbs. at 6' tall with what I would estimate to be between 12-15% bodyfat. Arms measure 17" pumped right now.

I have been training for about 16 years (age 33) though started bodybuilding again a year ago. I have a lot of experience with gear and supplements, though my last time one gear was in 2006.

My goal for this training phase is to increase muscle mass and strength while hopefully maintaining or losing bodyfat. I am training doggcrapp style (only twice per week due to work). I train quads/hams/biceps/calves/abs on one day and chest/back/shoulders/triceps/traps on the other day. I do cardio in the morning 2-3x week for about 25 min. (fast walk on treadmill).

This is my first time taking Ca-HMB. I've decided to try a higher dose of 8g per day. The rationale is on the linked thread on the first page.

I am also taking the following supplements. While there is a lot here, please note I have taken this combination before during my bulking phase, so the only major difference will be the HMB and less calories.

Supps:

1. Whey, Casein, Egg protein powder (I mix these three together with good results) ~150g/day
2. Fearn's soy lecithin 2 tbsp. in the afternoon (I have decided to start taking PA again 2 tbsp. once per day. I noticed some abdominal fat gain in the past but I was taking a higher dose, 4-8 or so tbsp. per day. I'm hoping HMB's abdominal fat loss properties will help counteract fat gain from SL, and I feel the two compounds may complement each other, PA stimulating anabolism, HMB minimizing catabolism.)
3.
4. 5-10 fish oil caps
5. (Will try agmatine in a few weeks.)
6. 1-2 caps ZMA prior to bedtime
7. Yohimburn
8. Boron 3mg/day
9.
10. Vitamin D 30,000 IU bolus dose 1-2x per week
11. 1 tab guarana in the morning
12. 10g l-citrulline pre-training days only
13. 1/4 tsp. of acetyl-tyrosine pre weight training
14. 300mg hyaluronic acid per day
15. Probiotics 2 capsules per day
16. HMB 2-3g 4x day


I have been taking HMB for about 15 days now. I logged my early results on the prior thread, but here is what they were:


2/21
Increased incline bench from previous workout +5 lbs. and +2 reps (which would be decent when bulking let alone cutting)
Very noticeable fat loss in midsection, chest, shoulders, and increased vascularity
Weight increase (measured post-workout) from ~224 last week to 228 this week suggesting minimal LBM loss or even gain, though weight is confounded b/c I drink a lot of water during training.

2/28

Tried to increase flat bench from 210 to 225 due to getting 210 x 8 incline bench last week. Was able to do 5,1 rest/pause reps, but ROM was crappy. Will be doing 215 or 220 next time.

On back I was able to increase T-bar rows +2.5 lbs. and +2 reps from the previous workout 2 weeks ago. Also increased 1 rep on CG pulldowns.

On shoulders I had a more impressive experience doing rest pause. Usually when I do a straight set of seated barbell presses, my shoulders are exhausted and I can't get the weight up for another rep after the 12-15 sec pause. This time however I was able to do 135 x 8,1, getting that additional rep.

Arms measured slightly less than 17" which was a decrease from last week when they were slightly above 17".

Subjectively: Fuller, leaner, more vascular, more "muscular," look than I've had before. Veins for the first time in shoulders and biceps. Look more "enhanced," but not gear level enhanced.

 

[Justlooking5]

3/1

Have noticed increased muscle fullness (since resuming SL) and continued leaning, particularly in the midsection. I think SL will work well with HMB.

Also decided to stop using 30g BCAA daily and am glad I did. I was having some mild constant anxiety and now that I stopped the BCAAs that has gone away. Also, I believe the BCAAs were also causing me to retain some water as my face / body looks less watery now and my waistline is a bit tighter. I will just be taking BCAAs intraworkout on training days from now on.

Weight today in the gym in the morning prior to cardio with just a protein shake was 221, which is what it was last week.

 

[AKM007]

Subd...

 

[Justlooking5]

3/6

I had some very solid workouts both days this week. Supplement changes first w/ rationales:

- BCAAs (was taking 30g/day for at least 4-5 months) - will not be taking BCAAs anymore and will be spending that money on casein protein so I can take more (particularly prior to bedtime). Main reasons are I think BCAAs caused me mild constant anxiety, as well as water retention (noticeably leaner in face/body) (and they are the worst-tasting supp for me by far).

- r-ala (was taking 200mg/day) - will not be taking it for a few reasons, one of which I do think it interferes with muscle gains as I've noticed in the past, but may be helpful for fat loss, though this isn't clear to me. After stopping it I've noticed more muscle fullness and better strength, and my joints don't feel as dry.

- Continuing 800mg TA per day with I think positive results.

- Continuing 2 tbsp. Fearns' per day and like it a lot as I did last time. Not a whole lot of abdominal fat gain on this lower dose (plus HMB may be helping).

- Continue to like my homemade blend of bulk whey isolate, micellar casein, and egg protein powder mixed into each protein shake.

Now onto training:

Day 1: Quads/hams/biceps/calves/abs

This week was my first week back on maintenance level calories of ~2,500 per day after a 5 week cutting phase. I was not doing squats the prior 5 weeks due to low calories, and decided to resume front squats this week. I decided to start off relatively light and was able to do a very solid set of Front squats: 165 x 8. My legs did not feel particularly fatigued at all (though were sore, particularly today 2 days later, though still the soreness was "muted" in a way and is barely there after training again today). My previous working weights with FS while bulking have been 185-205. I plan to add 5-10 lbs. per workout now with a goal of 225.

Hamstrings: did one leg at a time hamstring curls with 130 x 4,1 (4,1 means a doggcrapp rest pause set with 4 reps -> 12-15 secs -> 1 rep). Prior weight was 120 x 6-8 reps
Biceps: +5 lbs. on barbell curls to 100 lbs. x 6 (last was 95 x 6)
Calves: Seated calf raises 160 lbs x 20,7 (trying higher rep ranges)

Overall this was a very solid workout with a likely pr (since starting bbing again last year) on bicep curls.

Day 2 (today 3/6): Chest/back/shoulders/triceps/traps

Started out today with incline bench for chest. Because I got 210 x 8 smooth reps last time (2 weeks ago) I thought I would go for 215 today. I was able to get 215 x 6, 2, but continued to have difficulty with ROM. For some reason I'm able to get my warmup sets (even 195) with full ROM easily but it seems like as I get past 210 I have more difficulty. Going to continue to stay at 215 until I can get at least 8 straight reps with good ROM.
Also looking for an additional chest exercise that is new for next weeks workout to add to the incline and flat bench rotation.

Back:
Wide grip barbell rows: 175 x 10 today, +2 reps from last time, felt strong, reps were easy.
Wide grip chins w/ 10 lbs. x 8,1 this is + 10 lbs. for the same number of reps as prior workout and went quite well
Hyperextensions: 40 lbs. x 8

Shoulders:
Dumbbell seated shoulder presses: 70s x 6. Good ROM and +1 rep from last workout
Leaning side raises: 25 x 8 +2 reps
45 degree bench dumbbell rear delt raises (very good exercise IME) 52.5s x 8

Triceps:
Decided to try a new exercise which was one-arm cable tricep kickbacks. Got a great pump from it and will probably keep doing them, but as I've found on these movements, my right arm/shoulder is more stable than the left. Left: 50 x 10, R: 70 x 8

Traps: Dumbbell shrugs with 90s x 15


Overall impressions for the week:

Today I looked bigger than last week with a continuing increase in vascularity in the shoulder/arms area. Arms measured a couple marks above 17" pumped today (between 17 and 17.25") which was an increase from last week, probably in part due to more glycogen and starting PA.

Strength has continued to show a trend of improvement but not enormous (+1 rep on shoulder presses for example). The biggest positive change has been in appearance, where I look more muscular/"enhanced" and leaner than before, which I'm pretty pleased about. Muscle fullness in t-shirts and more of that "jacked" look are something else I've noticed.
I think HMB is quite good for bodybuilding (aesthetic) purposes as it seems to give me a leaner, more vascular and muscled/harder look. I think combining it with PA works well so far. I plan to continue at 8g HMB/day and 2 tbsp. PA per day.

 

[Justlooking5]

Double post

 

[Justlooking5]

3/10

So I though I'd update this with some interesting observations from the week after taking HMB for about 3 1/2 weeks.

I've noticed that since my training session on Sunday my chest and shoulders have been filling out noticeably this week. I'm starting to get more of that full line down the center of your chest when I flex, and my shoulders are looking wider and more rounded (partly b/c I added side raises back).

What I've noticed though is I feel more "buff" and muscular, but also I have been getting more attention from women this week to a degree that is unmistakable. Today for instance I was buying food after work and this hot blond chick with a couple kids was checking me out and caught my eye and smiled... another women was walking the opposite direction down the aisle as me and gave me this demure smile. At another store this pretty cute blond chick who has been stuck up at points in the past started telling me how she competed in a bodybuilding competition a few years ago when she was checking me out w/ protein powder at the register (I didn't bring up bodybuilding). At work today this hottie I have flirted a bit with gave me a smile and seemed upset at first when I wasn't looking at her as she walked by me until I smiled at her.
Anyway, I do get attention from women but these examples (particularly the hot blond chick) were more standout and unusual.

Is it because I'm looking bigger? I think it could be. I hope that's what it is. The only other possibility is that I've been feeling a bit better about some stuff I'm working on so perhaps I'm coming off as more confident, but I tend to think it may be the increased muscularity and confidence that comes with that more than anything.

I have also decided that perhaps 2.5-3g of Ca-HMB may be the sweet spot, so I have been taking about 10g per day now instead of 8. If you look at/believe the MuscleTech study it shows more than 5-fold increase in plasma levels with free acid vs. calcium for the first hour, so 3g of FA theoretically would produce plasma levels of equivalent to 15g+ of Ca-HMB (though who really knows).
http://www.muscletech.com/products/performance-series/clear-muscle/

Anyway, this is also about two weeks after resuming Fearns 2 tbs./day, so I'm sure this is part of it as well, but I wasn't getting the exact same results with just PA in the past that I am now with PA + HMB.

 

[Justlooking5]

3/13

On Friday I trained quads/hams/biceps/calves/abs. Overall it was a very solid workout. I was able to increase hamstring curls +1 rep from last week, and increased alternating standing dumbbell curls from 40 x 15 (~7 per side) to 45 x 14,4 rest/pause. So a continued mild strength increase.

This week schedule wise I will be able to train on Wednesday so I'll be doing chest/back/shoulders/tris/traps on Wednesday and I'm interested to see how my strength will be.

Also, I have noticed as I mentioned above a change in how women have been acting toward me in the past few weeks. Part of it is probably because the weather is warm and I'm wearing tshirts instead of a jacket, however, I am noticing women checking me out a lot more and even the really hot chicks seem to care if I notice/appreciate their beauty and seem to give me a certain amount of respect which is interesting and new... I can tell they see me as like a "muscular guy" or (ideally) a hot guy and they seem to care if I notice them and they don't just act snobby/inaccessible like really hot (and sometimes $$) chicks tend to do. I am pretty sure this is due to me being visibly "buff" again which I wasn't a year ago (resumed bodybuilding last march), and I think HMB has helped a lot to give me that real muscularity/roundness/hardness. .

Additionally, I have decided to try 11.5mg/day of Boron to hopefully increase free test. I've read the studies I can find which so far indicate that 11.5mg Boron tends to increase free test (a few studies show about 30%) with variable effects on estrogen. Another study that used 2.5mg showed no effect, hence I'm using 10mg.

Supps:

I've decided to stop the tongkat ali for now because I was having some joint soreness yesterday after taking both TA and boron, and I'd like to see what boron does on its own. So far I actually have noticed some favorable effects (seem a bit leaner/harder w/ less water, voice is deeper) so it will be interesting to see how my training goes with boron vs. TA. One interesting thing to note I think is TA is shown more to increase total test in hypogonadic males under stress, while boron has shown to increase free test in healthy males.

Here's an interesting article on boron that discusses early and recent research. Notice the dosages used vs. effects (5mg+ show increased test, 2.5mg show no effect).

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/boron-bigness/

I'm still taking one rounded teaspoon (2.5-3g) of HMB 4x per day, and 2 tbs. Fearn's once per day.

I also think it's interesting that as I've visited this board (and gained some great supp knowledge I was unaware of), that we seem to be using as some of the best supps many compounds that are old school but have regained a positive reputation, such as HMB, boron, lecithin, etc. All stuff from the 1970s,80s, and 90s. Kind of interesting when you think about it.

 

[AKM007]

3/13
All stuff from the 1970s,80s, and 90s. Kind of interesting when you think about it.

Yep seems to be that way.

Your still eating maintenance right? Any positive fat loss apart from the muscle fulness?

 

[Justlooking5]

Yep seems to be that way.

Your still eating maintenance right? Any positive fat loss apart from the muscle fulness?

Yep still eating maintenance. It's hard for me to determine fat loss at the moment because I have increased my calories (to maintenance as you mentioned) since originally starting HMB while cutting. I'll weigh myself in the morning tomorrow on an empty stomach. My most recent a.m. weight last week was 222 (about 223 but I subtract a lb. for clothes/shoes).

However, I can say that I don't think I've gained back much fat and overall I'm looking harder/rounder. Instead of kind of having a softer bigness if that makes sense at 220 I now look like a more dense/muscular 220 with rounded/harder shoulders/chest to where it's more obvious I'm a bodybuilder in clothes rather than just "bulky" but kind of softer/watery. I think it's interesting that this week for the first time even though I was wearing a jacket that chick at the vitamin store register brought up that she had prepared for a bodybuilding contest when ringing up my egg protein... almost like she assumed I was a bodybuilder vs buying it for some other reason.

I think the effect is similar to if you were to start a hardening AAS like winny or anavar (both of which I have tried back in the early 2000s) though I'm sure I'd have more vascularity/hardness on either of those, but HMB has comparable effects I think.

Whether this increased muscle density is because I'm actually losing fat in the arms/chest/shoulder/back area or because of some other reason I'm not entirely sure. I can see a bit more serrattus definition but I don't feel I've lost noticeably more fat in the midsection since starting back on maintenance calories, despite being leaner/harder overall.

 

[Justlooking5]

3/16

Had the chance to get in a workout today, and trained chest/back/shoulders/triceps/traps.

Supp changes are: 4 days in on Boron 11.5mg/day. My thoughts so far is that it may actually work to increase free test. I've noticed improved mood/sense of well being and less irritability (irritability = sign of low testosterone), better erections and morning wood most days which I wasn't getting before. Curiously, my face seems less bloated but my skin seems thicker the way estrogen tends to make it.

In the gym today I noticed a mild increase in aggression that I wasn't expecting, and I think an increase in strength... of course it is complicated because I'm also cutting out caffeine so I took only about 1/2 as much caffeine as I was last week.

Workout was as follows:

Flat Barbell Press: 215 x 7,1 - this was a solid set with good ROM for the first time; as I mention in earlier logs I was having some ROM difficulties with 215 and higher. Total rest/pause reps on flat were the same as on incline last week, but ROM was better. Once I get about 10 total r/p reps with good ROM I will increase to 220.

T-Bar Rows: Continued to feel strong, was able to get 125 x 6 as opposed to 117.5 x 8... so not a major strength increase here.
Reps/weight were also about the same for close grip pulldowns.

Standing Barbell Press: 125 x 4, decent, just re-added this exercise.
Leaning DB side raises: 30 x 7,2 both sides, +5 lbs for same reps from last workout

Triceps: Overhead Barbell Extensions: 60 + (curl bar) x 8. Felt this was a bit heavy for decent form, so I will go to 55 next session with a goal of 12+ solid r/p reps and then increase.

Traps: Barbell Shrugs: 225 x 8 (pretty easy)

Overall I looked decently big today but less defined, which I am attributing mainly to a combination of decreased caffeine and possibly increased estrogen from the Boron, which I also believe is probably increasing testosterone (and I like it better than TA actually).

My chest and shoulders are looking much more defined and full though which I still think has something to do with HMB. It's interesting that a recent study concluded that HMB "preserves muscle quality," whatever that means, but maybe I am seeing that effect in the sense of having increased muscularity/density. Overall I think Ca-HMB at 4 x 2-3g/day continues to be one of the best supps I've taken for recomp +quality muscle and less fat.
Interesting about the study below also is that they discuss how higher doses of Ca-HMB starts to overcome the absorption advantage of HMB-FA.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2016/02/hmb-likely-protects-muscle-quality.html

...the amount of HMB that actually hits the circulation - or, as scientists say the area under the curve (AUC) from t = 0 to t = ∞ - is actually 49%, 54%, and 27% lower (with increasing doses reducing the difference) than for Ca-HMB (Shreeram. 2014).

 

[Justlooking5]

3/20

Things continue to go well with HMB. I also think Boron at 11.5mg/day may really work for test. As I mentioned I used gear about 10 years ago and I think I've had low test since about 2006. In 2010 I got my levels tested and total test (when I was 28) was 390 and I had a lot of the symptoms of low test. Tried a few rounds of clomid with my urologist but my levels would go up to 1,000-1,100 and then back to 400 or so after I got off clomid.

Anyway I've been trying to address this especially since I started bodybuilding again last year. I had been using Tongkat Ali 100:1 which I do think is helpful, but I still wasn't having exactly the results I was looking for, though I may resume TA in the future.

I decided to stop TA and start Boron at 11.5mg/day last Sunday and I actually think this stuff works. I've noticed a marked reduction in negative mood symptoms and an improvement in general well-being and a feeling of being "balanced." Additionally, my erections have felt normal again in the sense that there isn't an issue getting one, and I've had more morning erections.

Strength on leg day Friday was good, though most of the exercises I did were new so I don't have a comparison point.

I did:

Bulgarian Split Squats with 40 lbs. dumbells x 10 reps per side. I really like this exercise so far as my quads are sore along the entire length.
Romanian deadlifts: 155 x 8 (increase of +10 lbs total for 8 instead of 10 reps).
Bicep cable curls: 130 x 9. I know months ago when I last had this exercise in my rotation I was doing 120 x 4-6 reps so this is an increase in weight and reps from back then.
Seated Calf Raises: 170 x 12, 4,3 (+10 lbs. for slightly less reps than last time).

Overall I think Boron probably works and seems to increase test (if it does) in a way that is more balancing and natural to your physiology than perhaps an anti-estrogen does.

 

[Justlooking5]

3/25

I've been making a lot of supp changes recently, mainly because I'm going to be taking an exam in a few weeks and I'm tapering off everything that is stimulating or affects you cognitively, such as caffeine. I also decided to stop taking beta alanine due to its stimulatory properties and the results have been interesting. I was taking 3-6g/day BA as a maintenance dose. I also decided to decrease boron to 6mg/day, which seems like an optimal balance to me so far with +test but less joint dryness (and maybe less estradiol also).

I've been off beta alanine for about a week now and I have noticed a significant reduction in subcutaneous water retention. One thing I've wondered since I started bodybuilding again last year is why despite weighing the same (~220) as I did when I was also seriously into bodybuilding in my teens and 20s (33 now) is why I looked so much softer and less defined now than I have in the past (I've discussed this above several times).

I assumed this was due to either age, less time training again, or that I wasn't taking fat burners like I did in my 20s (just guarana now).

However, I now think it's actually because I have been taking relatively high dose beta alanine for at least the past 8 months, which I didn't take in my 20s because it wasn't out yet.

Now I know many people will say "but beta alanine doesn't cause water retention...." to that I'd say, how do you know? Because finally my skin looks thinner again my muscle definition is now they way it was back in the day. At least for me, it's pretty clear that beta alanine at 3-6g/day definitely caused me to hold subq water that was blurring muscle definition. I do tend to hold water easily.

Anyway, I've decided to stick with citrulline instead for endurance which I really like. I also think the HMB+PA combo continues to be very beneficial.
I did notice a mild reduction in strength/reps without beta alanine today, but since I'm also decreasing caffeine, my goal is to maintain reps/weights for the next few weeks until I get this test behind me.

Today I did chest/back/shoulders/triceps/traps. Arms actually measured larger than they have in the past few weeks, at just under 17.25" pumped, with better definition/hardness all over.

Chest: Incline press: 205 x 7,1 (decrease of 10 lbs. since last workout, but +1 rep with better ROM)

Back: Barbell Rows: 175 x 10 (same as last time, will go to 155 because I liked my form better at 155 and then increase again.
Wide Grip chins: + 10 lbs. x 8, 1 (same as last time)

Shoulders: Seated barbell press: (145 x 5 +10 lbs. for less reps)
Leaning side raises: 30 lbs. x 8,2 +1 rep
Bent over side raises: 40 x 12

Triceps: Lying dumbbell extensions: 40 x 8 (I like this exercise, seems to hit triceps well)

Traps: Dumbbell shrugs: 90 x 12 (same)

Anyway, I was finally happier with how I looked in the gym today and could really see the muscle definition in chest/arms.

Also, n-acetyl-tyrosine is helpful for energy boost when you're tapering off caffeine or just in general.

 

[CJNator]

Subd!

 

[tyga tyga]

Sub a dub

 

[Justlooking5]

Thanks guys. I should have more interesting updates in a few weeks once I'm training again without limitations of not taking caffeine etc. I will say that I continue to have noticed I am holding less subq water and look more lean and cut as more than a week has gone by since I stopped taking 3-6g of beta-alanine per day. The only other notable changes I've made during this time is to decrease boron to 6mg/day from 11.5, and tapering off caffeine. So from my POV beta alanine was causing water retention at the doses I was taking so I will probably stick with l-citrulline for endurance for the time being.

 

[dsade]

When you start up again, would you consider running your protocol with Strafe, from EvoMuse?

 

[Justlooking5]

When you start up again, would you consider running your protocol with Strafe, from EvoMuse?

It looks like an interesting product and thank you for the offer, let me consider it and I'll be able to let you know in a couple weeks.

 

[Justlooking5]

4/3

This week I decided to take an off week from weight training (suggested every 6-10 weeks for doggcrapp training). I also have now tapered completely off caffeine which reminds me why coffee is such a popular drink. I've also decided to stop taking creatine HCL for the spring/summer (unless I decide to bulk prior to winter).

As I've started to shed some of the supplements I have been taking at higher doses (Creatine HCL, BA, BCAA), I've started to come to a realization that more is not necessarily optimal. I actually like my physique now more than I did when I was taking the above products. Naturally, tapering off creatine relieved additional water retention and I like the way I look and feel (less heavy/weighted down) now.

I think my philosophy for the spring and summer at least is going to be taking moderate amounts of most supplements, and only ones that promote actual lean muscle gains, with HMB and PA as the foundation of my muscle building regiment.

Even if my strength drops at first after stopping creatine, and I go from ~220 to 217 or 215, I will either continue at that weight or build up actual muscle mass to get back to 220. I think I will look leaner/more cut and feel better with this approach.

I'm going to continue HMB at 8-10g/day for now because I do think it is quite beneficial and seems to promote leanness and muscle gains with minimal water retention. I'm also going to continue PA at 2 tbsp. SL/day (4 on training days).

All other supps will be the same for now except I tweaked boron a bit further and decreased to 3mg/day as even at 6mg I was having some joint dryness (suggesting possible estradiol decrease). I also want to get my test levels checked at some point in the next several months.

After I start training fully again I do want to try agmantine pre-workout and I decided to switch l-citrulline to pre-workout only as well. I also think my experiences illustrate that it is beneficial sometimes to just discontinue certain supplements for awhile even if you feel like they are working just to see what effect you notice.

 

[CJNator]

How has everything been?