People lie, but blood tests don't. And when the doctor says "you have to come off TRT

[EasyEJL]

People lie, but blood tests don't. And when the doctor says "you have to come off TRT

You have to damn well come off TRT. You don't have to like it though

Blood was drawn 6/25, results came back and met with doctor on 6/30 when she told me this. I had injected 200mg of test cyp on the 26, and that was the last at least for a few months...

The largest piece of the problem was cholesterol levels, my LDL was 232, while my HDL was 16. My PSA was over top of scale as well (although free PSA was ok) and a few other values were off too, liver being one, free testosterone being another (2x top of scale ). I was put on Crestor as well which means no liver stressing SERM based PCT. The plus is that she's doing a 1 month and 3 month full blood panel including hormone panels, so we'll be able to see exactly where this all goes..... I've been on TRT for about 16 months now, so I'm not honestly sure how great recovery will be or what my levels will end up at. Prior to starting TRT total test was in the under bottom of normal range (220-250) since I was around 34, and free test was right at bottom.

My workout is a 4 day split - Mon chest + tris, Tues back + bis, wed off or cardio, Thurs thighs + bis, Fri abs, shoulders + tris, Sat + Sun usually cardio, sometimes off. I'll also tend to hit abs one or two other days, but its as is convenient. My workouts + cardio are all done fasted, first thing in the morning.

Current supplementation structure

Prebed - Propadrol EP, HGHUp, 500mg niacin
Mornings - Drive, Free Test, NOW Daily Multi, 15g twinlabs emulsified omega 3 fish oil, 500mg niacin, VB-12 strips workout days, occasionally use another preworkout as well.
Evenings Drive

I'm also on cardio days using Napalm that has added nicotine, 2mg per pump, generally 3 pumps total 2x that day.

Diet varies from 2500-3200 calories with one cheat meal done a week usually weekend, usually Cold Stone Creamery . About 200-250g protein, primarily from chicken + eggs. I use shakes only as a drink when i'm having a non-protein meal (usually multigrain or sprouted grain english muffins with natural peanut or almond butter and no sugar added preserves). I'm also doing no dairy, and keeping to relatively low sodium. That is primarily for lack of water retention purposes only, blood pressure is usually at 120/75. House is well stocked with quinoa, oats, etc and since I telecommute I go grocery shopping daily after the gym as well so fresh veggies + fruits. I also don't really care about hunger or lack thereof, so I eat as 3 meals a day as its simpler and I have yet to see any peer reviewed medical study that shows a statistical significant difference in either mass gained or fat lost from a 3 meal a day to a 6/7/8 meal a day plan. I am drinking only water, unsweetened (or sweetened with stevia) green or black tea, and soy milk. Occasionally (2-3x a week) I have some diet soda. Keeping overall diet to slightly lower fat than I usually would, to help make sure the LDL comes down enough by 1 month in that I can stop the Crestor.

I'll put up pics tomorrow or saturday, and begin logging workouts here with Monday's.

 

[EasyEJL]

Pictures to go here

 

[EasyEJL]

Either scans of bloodwork or end pictures will go here

 

[Rodja]

How did you add the nicotine to the Napalm?

 

[EasyEJL]

I got liquid (menthol flavor) that is meant for use with the electronic cigarettes, and added approx 7ml of 28mg/ml to a full napalm bottle.

 

[Rodja]

I got liquid (menthol flavor) that is meant for use with the electronic cigarettes, and added approx 7ml of 28mg/ml to a full napalm bottle.

You're brilliant.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm just fighting hard for a 6 pack Sooner or later. plus i had moronically picked up smoking regular cigarettes again for a short while, so this made it easier to stop smoking

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

No mention of Q10 or Fish Oil in the OP. I'd be doing both. At least 5 caps/day of omega3 for your HDL levels.

 

[EasyEJL]

No mention of Q10 or Fish Oil in the OP. I'd be doing both. At least 5 caps/day of omega3 for your HDL levels.

ah good point, I am doing 15g of emulsified fish oil daily, let me add that. I have some bulk Idebenone too that I could cap and use in place of q10.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Nice. Fish Oil is such a staple I often forget to list it, myself. Here's to hoping your levels come down.

I missed before that you were on a statin. In that case you most assuredly need to supplement Q10.

 

[SamBoz19]

I shall follow along my fellow AN brother. :thumbsup:

Cheers!:cheers:

-Sean-

Team APPNUT

 

[EasyEJL]

Moday - chest. started with warmups on flat db bench, but the inner tendon between bi + tri still felt off, so I went with inclines first instead

incline db press 65x13, 75x10
incline db fly 30x15, 35x11
flat db fly 35x12x12
flat smith press (figure less strain that way, not something I normally do) 160x10x6x4 done as DC style rest pause
tricep pushdown 180x8x10
cg bench 110x10x5x4 done as DC style rest/pause
standing french press 80x8-70x8

Pretty good workout for 6am empty stomach, was using a new preworkout product with no stims.

 

[EasyEJL]

tuesday - back - still using that new preworkout, had half a 20oz cup of coffee as stim before workout too

Deadlifts - 315x5x5
Wide grip pulldowns 155x10x8
Seated row 210x8x6 - new PR which is pretty damn amazing given no testosterone
db curl 50x6x6
ez bar preacher curl 60x18
cable reverse curl 50x10x8

I normally would have also done pullovers, but i was a little tight on time, and that does hit that same tendon that still is a little iffy, so I figured best to skip it. Feeling pretty good for 18 days past last injection of 200mg. Seems like the combo of natural boosters is working well. I never managed 315 on deadlifts "unenhanced" before. The only times I hit it were at higher doses of test, or while I was using methyl stenelone. Which reminds me, I need to post a quickie review of the methyl sten too, I keep forgetting.

 

[EasyEJL]

thursday I skipped legs, due to lack of time. Friday I did normal friday workout

abs/shoulders/bis
military press bar + 90*10-110*4-70*4
concentration curl 45x10x10
upright row 110x11x8
ez bar preacher 70x12x12
lateral raise (machine) 125x12x7
reverse cable curl 50x10x7
barbell rear delt raise (on smith) 110x8, 90x7
Shrug - basically fail, I didnt have my versagrips (like straps) so I couldn't get a good hold on the bar with enough weight on it.

 

[rochabp]

In!!!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Sorry to hear about the TRT, Easy, but time to make the best! It would be nice if other members would follow your lead, regarding hormone manipulation.

 

[B5150]

You have to damn well come off TRT. You don't have to like it though

Blood was drawn 6/25, results came back and met with doctor on 6/30 when she told me this. I had injected 200mg of test cyp on the 26, and that was the last at least for a few months...

The largest piece of the problem was cholesterol levels, my LDL was 232, while my HDL was 16. My PSA was over top of scale as well (although free PSA was ok) and a few other values were off too, liver being one, free testosterone being another (2x top of scale ). I was put on Crestor as well which means no liver stressing SERM based PCT. The plus is that she's doing a 1 month and 3 month full blood panel including hormone panels, so we'll be able to see exactly where this all goes..... I've been on TRT for about 16 months now, so I'm not honestly sure how great recovery will be or what my levels will end up at. Prior to starting TRT total test was in the under bottom of normal range (220-250) since I was around 34, and free test was right at bottom.

I am sorry to hear of the set back in your treatment.

IIRC you were also using arimidex as well. Correct?

Without putting you on the spot, would you care to share with others the lesson you may have learned regarding your previous treatment option/choice and supervision or lack there of, with particular regard to regular thorough follow-up blood work. I think it could be valuable information to some members. If not, I understand.
(the above paragraph can be deleted at request)

As much as I dislike the idea of being restricted to maintain physiological levels of hormones (I've been maintaining the upper quadrant of total testosterone and slightly above mid range for free and bioavailable) I am also required to get blood work every 6 months. The trade off is the benefit of the very regular monitoring of PSA, lipids, CBC and CMP.

As you very well know 200mg/w is well beyond physiological levels and as you are seeing first hand can be very counter indicative and or productive to anti-aging and longevity.

I wonder if the arimidex contributed to the liver values.

I am by no means looking to ride your ass but I am happy to see that you have had the blessing of finding this out now rather than later. Your wife and children as well as family and loved ones are far more important and valuable than supraphysiological levels of hormones. I mean this in all sincerity and can empathize with any or all concerns you may have regarding the discovery and or the vanities with which men of our age can succumb to with the ease of and access to treatment.

If you do find that TRT is still in order once things stabilize I will attest that compounded testosterone at a 900ng level is treating me a whole lot better physically, clinically and emotionally than 200mg/w injection ever did.

On a positive note - it is my understanding that your PSA will return to normal range without too much difficulty once clinical physiological testosterone levels return and stabilize.

The niacin, omegas (f/o, xvoo) and a good cardio program will improve your HDL/LDL issues shortly. The addition of niacin for me increased my HDL by 20% in about 3 months.

Be well. If you need anything let me know.

 

[EasyEJL]

so saturdays is normally off/cardio, but I did a partial thighs to make up for skipping thurs, then an hour of elliptical

squats 225x7x7 to parallel
lying leg curls 170x10x4
One leg leg press 180x12x12

and then did an hour on elliptical. Feeling good, the 170 on leg curls was a new PR. I'm a little surprised, I expected noticeable strength loss as its now 3 weeks since last 200mg injection.

 

[EasyEJL]

I am sorry to hear of the set back in your treatment.

IIRC you were also using arimidex as well. Correct?

Without putting you on the spot, would you care to share with others the lesson you may have learned regarding your previous treatment option/choice and supervision or lack there of, with particular regard to regular thorough follow-up blood work. I think it could be valuable information to some members. If not, I understand.

Yes, I was using arimidex, to which I partially blame for the cholesterol as well. And the 200mg dosing was just what I was doing recently, original prescription was written at 300. I was using a remote based anti-aging doctor for TRT, where all prescriptions are filled via their compounding pharmacy. It was handy in that it was very straightforward and simple, and all home administered. However they don't particularly give a crap about you as a patient, really just want to continue to see the $ rolling in. They'd actually deliver vials for up to 3 months at once, and overall you could get enough to run 400 for 7 of the 12 weeks and 300 for the other 5. So it was nice to be basically on a light to moderate cycle year round but as the blood levels show, probably not the best health idea.

My GP has said that if I were to go back on she wants it to be under supervision of a local doctor. The urologist I got my vasectomy from does do injections of cyp in his office, 125mg/wk. I need to check with my insurance to see how the copay works for that because if its $30 a week I really can't afford that.

Overall if the 3 month blood tests while on just naturals come back poorly and I also am losing headway in the gym, i'll probably go doctor shopping to find one where I can dose at that 125-150/wk but do it at home. My copay on insurance for a 10ml vial is $10.

 

[EasyEJL]

So far i'm pretty amazed. Whether its that i've gained more knowledge of training, or just learned more about my body all lifts are still climbing. the only thing that has dropped is recovery feel. I'm sore for longer, but with working a 4 day split it still all works out fine.

I had originally considered that if I was sticking to naturals at this point instead, that I might still do one cycle a year. But if i'm still breaking PRs right now where natural test production CANT have reached back to normal yet, I'm thinking I may just avoid hormonals at all.

 

[B5150]

Yes, I was using arimidex, to which I partially blame for the cholesterol as well. And the 200mg dosing was just what I was doing recently, original prescription was written at 300. I was using a remote based anti-aging doctor for TRT, where all prescriptions are filled via their compounding pharmacy. It was handy in that it was very straightforward and simple, and all home administered. However they don't particularly give a crap about you as a patient, really just want to continue to see the $ rolling in. They'd actually deliver vials for up to 3 months at once, and overall you could get enough to run 400 for 7 of the 12 weeks and 300 for the other 5. So it was nice to be basically on a light to moderate cycle year round but as the blood levels show, probably not the best health idea.

Thank you for the candor. You and I both know very well there are a lot of users of this sort of "treatment" that are quite naive to the real health risk there is associated with this sort of "care".

My GP has said that if I were to go back on she wants it to be under supervision of a local doctor. The urologist I got my vasectomy from does do injections of cyp in his office, 125mg/wk. I need to check with my insurance to see how the copay works for that because if its $30 a week I really can't afford that.

Overall if the 3 month blood tests while on just naturals come back poorly and I also am losing headway in the gym, i'll probably go doctor shopping to find one where I can dose at that 125-150/wk but do it at home. My copay on insurance for a 10ml vial is $10.

I dose 200mg ED compounded with estimated min 10% absorption which would equate to about 140mg/w. My blood draw has always been 12 hours after application and I run at 900ng. So yes, 125-150mg of E or C when you account for the ester would be just right. I am with you on the ease of injections and the risk of cross contamination with creams but we are all well informed and educated of my use in our home.

So far i'm pretty amazed. Whether its that i've gained more knowledge of training, or just learned more about my body all lifts are still climbing. the only thing that has dropped is recovery feel. I'm sore for longer, but with working a 4 day split it still all works out fine.

I had originally considered that if I was sticking to naturals at this point instead, that I might still do one cycle a year. But if i'm still breaking PRs right now where natural test production CANT have reached back to normal yet, I'm thinking I may just avoid hormonals at all.

As long as mood, depression or ED are no issue and performance in the gym is up what's the need really. For me (correct) TRT was the cure for an underlying depression issue that was being alternately treated with anti-depression medication and for years and years earlier self medication with drugs and alcohol. Yet I'm sure they were symbiotic.

Your attitude is good. :thumbsup:

 

[EasyEJL]

today was chest
flat db press 105x2-put them down as I hadn't pulled my wrist supports all the way tight, and wrists hurt. Probably could have hit 4 if it wasn't for that - 90x4-75x8 this was a PR, first time i've put more than bodyweight into the air with dbs.

incline db press 55x8x6

flat machine fly 145x4x4 115x8

tricep pushdown 180x12x6

cg bench on smith index fingers touching bar+100x10x6

french press 80x9x7

A pretty good workout, chest is finally starting to catch up with triceps I think

 

[Distilled Water]

Thats rough, your plan of attack for everything looks like a good one.

 

[EasyEJL]

And so far outside the horrifying doms + slow recovery, i'm not seeing any strength or mass losses. Actually still seeing strength gains.

 

[MAxximal]

Sweet!

 

[EasyEJL]

today was supposed to be back + bis, but woke up late so it was back only. I'll do bis tomorrow (normally off day) and do cardio after.

Deadlifts 315x5, 225x12
wide grip pulldowns 155x10x9
seated row 210x10x8

That was more reps on both wide grip pulldowns and seated row at same weight as last week, so strength is still somehow managing to go up, even with no testostone. We're still almost 2 weeks from next blood draw (aug 2nd) so we'll see where I am then. And crap I need to take pictures, I keep forgetting

 

[SouthernCharm]

Nice back workout.. Also the supps look pretty good. I know coq10 is expensive, but this with RYR would be good for lipids. RYR is known for decreasing coq10 so you'd have to supplement it as well. I think it's worth a bit of money.

I see you're eating 3 meals a day.. Which is fine IMO I eat 6 or 7 when I can but am content with 3-4 as long as I meet my macros.. What types of meats are you eating?

 

[kingdong]

Make sure zinc levels are good. During PCT, I would avoid products that free up test. I heard it messes with your bodies effort to return to equilibrium.

 

[EasyEJL]

In a given day, I probably eat 8oz each of fish beef and chicken, plus some amount of protein from soymilk (avoiding dairy for a while just as an experiment). eggs I have roughly every other day. I do have a huge bottle of 25mg zinc, keep meaning to take one a day, but keep forgetting

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Best wishes Easy!

 

[celc5]

is there a need for hcg?

 

[Royd The Noyd]

In for lawg. Had to back trace it to find it though.

 

[EasyEJL]

is there a need for hcg?

it might have been smart the first week or 2, but I didn't have any on hand and this came up suddenly and nobody I knew locally had any.

So this first set of blood tests (taken aug 2nd I think) should be interesting to see how rebound is off a basically 18 month cycle with no "real" PCT.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

EJL, just to get a perspective - did you inject testosterone because you felt it'd help you in the weight room (another words, was it "Juicing" called trt) or a neccessity?

 

[EasyEJL]

EJL, just to get a perspective - did you inject testosterone because you felt it'd help you in the weight room (another words, was it "Juicing" called trt) or a neccessity?

it was necessary my blood tests for the prior 6 years had all been at the very bottom end of normal to below bottom end, and my doctor had talked to me about the possibility a number of times. I was having mood + depression issues, and some hard time losing weight.

 

[celc5]

it might have been smart the first week or 2, but I didn't have any on hand and this came up suddenly and nobody I knew locally had any.

So this first set of blood tests (taken aug 2nd I think) should be interesting to see how rebound is off a basically 18 month cycle with no "real" PCT.

gotcha, makes sense

did you have chol problems before trt? If not, if I were in your shoes, I'd focus on getting my hpta restrated via pct and then addressing the cholesterol. Although I am younger than you, all steroid, serm, ai induced chol problems for me have been self correcting (although more slowly than most broskis would assume). My numbers were never quite as bad as yours either, but cessation of the drugs cleared it up for me... just shop talk, not trying to sway you to be honest.

Also, I'm sure you already know this, but a common side with statins is muscle pain. I'm wondering if what you suspect to be poor recovery is actually a side from the crestor. And typical warning, what may seem like back pain can actually be kidney stress with statins... you didn't really specify with the recovery issue, so I'm just blurting out ideas

 

[EasyEJL]

It more sems like "normal" DOMS but a little extra intense, and longer lasting.

Pre cycling ever, my HDL was usually in the 60s, and total cholesterol between 150-170 so no issues. I'm guessing i'll be pretty close to back to normal at this first test.

The main reason I didn't do a "normal" PCT is that since my liver numbers were already elevated and also taking the statin I didn't want to add even more liver stress on. Since i'm getting 30 + 90 day bloods I'll see where I really am, and if I restart TRT at that point through test levels being in the tank then thats ok. But it seems reasonable that with taking just the Drive/Free Test/HGHUp combo, with DAA added in alternating 2 week on 2 week off that I could stay in normal range.

 

[celc5]

sounds reasonable to me.

And dude, the DAA was some crazy shiit! I dunno if I was a hyper responder or just lucky. Either way, libido was through the roof, agression was up, and I even had anxiety sides within a few days. If I had a less stressful lifestyle, I'd still be running DAA. IME, DAA is the real deal.

 

[UnrealMachine]

So this first set of blood tests (taken aug 2nd I think) should be interesting to see how rebound is off a basically 18 month cycle with no "real" PCT.

Sounds kinda rough! But you'll get through it.

Oh why can't the doctors just give us what we want :grumpy:

 

[EasyEJL]

Well, I keep forgetting to update the workouts, but this week's chest + back were both decent. Strength may be down a hair, but due to goddamn losers hogging benches I had to change my whole chest order, which changes weights so its hard to say. Back+bis was right about the same as last week, but felt harder.

So next monday is the 30 day blood draw, that will tell a lot of the story. And ****, I still haven't taken pictures, I need to remember to do that.

 

[EasyEJL]

welp major league problem this morning. was doing leg curls with the machien at 185 and felt a major pop in my right hamstring on 3rd rep and almost passed out in pain. laid there 5 minutes or so, tried to stand up and about fell over. Couldn't make more than 5 steps before starting to grey out. Took close to 20 minutes to make it to the car Not sure whether its torn or just strained badly as of yet, i don't feel a tear touching it but could be all internal.

Any bright suggestions? I've done 600mg each of ibuprofen and naproxen sodium, plus a skelaxin (muscle relaxer) and icing it.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

damnt that sucks Easy.

Like your doing, Meds, Ice it and rest. See if any bruising shows up, if so, you tore something.

 

[Distilled Water]

Easy, I tore my hamstring back in march. If you have a sharp pain when walking and can't fully extend your leg for more than a few days, It's probably torn.

Take it easy, when not active keep your leg straight try to bend and use it as little as possible. Ice and Heat in rotation and Ibprofen is going to be your best bet, extremley light stretching also. Go until you can "feel it" and hold it there for a few seconds. Try this after using heat on it 2 or 3 times a day.

I sincerely hope it's not torn. It's a real b!tch, it's been 5 months and I can finally touch my toes again but i still wake up every day with a tight feeling in my left hammy.

 

[kingdong]

In a given day, I probably eat 8oz each of fish beef and chicken, plus some amount of protein from soymilk (avoiding dairy for a while just as an experiment). eggs I have roughly every other day. I do have a huge bottle of 25mg zinc, keep meaning to take one a day, but keep forgetting

Try putting it next to the tooth brush.

 

[AntonG42O]

I dont see any saturated fat in your diet. maybe its because you didnt detail the diet but i dont see any red meat, butter, fatty fish, coconut, bacon, etc. some saturated fat from eggs but other than that not much fat. im obviously very young but even i noticed a boost in test and a decrease in inflammation from eating more fat and less carbs.

 

[EasyEJL]

I eat a good amount of salmon, use real butter or coconut oil for most frying (eggs over easy in coconut oil is wonderful) plus have a tendency to go through quite a bit of natural peanut butter (at points over 8oz a day)

 

[AntonG42O]

dont go too heavy on peanut butter, try other nut butters. peanuts have a huge amt of omega 6 and no omega 3. almond butter for ex is much more balanced

 

[Distilled Water]

Hows the hammy Easy?

 

[EasyEJL]

better, but still sore. I can walk around with only a slight limp now. still not back at the gym, so being extra conscious about how i'm eating to avoid adding any fat.

 

[Distilled Water]

better, but still sore. I can walk around with only a slight limp now. still not back at the gym, so being extra conscious about how i'm eating to avoid adding any fat.

Yea because it'll come, and it'll come fast if you dont....Thats what happened to me for about 2months.