Pink Magic (unsponsored)

[MM11]

Pink Magic has caused quite a stir on Anabolic Minds lately. I purchased the option #3 during the IC sale and have 2 bottles. I decided that I would do an unsponsored log for everyone here, and of course myself.

Diet. first and for most...
I track my diet on my Iphone using the Loose it app. I find it funny its for loosing weight but i eat the same foods most days and they are stored there, it makes life easy. what it gives me is cals and pro%carb%fat% I aim for a 35/35/30 diet with the majority of carbs around my work out and taper off nearing the end of the day. Cals 3200-3800 but on occasion ill go way over, or if work/life gets in the way it may cause me to fall short. I eat clean, carb sources from fruits / veggies/ whole grain. protein from various meats (chicken, steak, turkey, eggs) I will not post everyday but many days ill post meals, cals, macro break down to give people an idea.

Training
I dont follow a specific routine, i train according to what is fresh or needs work. My number one priority is not to bulk or loose fat. i want my lifts to go up while staying lean. I have a powerbuilder style of lifting.. ill get more into this later. its an ADHD style but it works for me.

Supplements
Pink Magic - Usp Labs

Staples
diCreatine malate - 15g day (nutrabrand is super cheap why not)
Beta Alanine - 6g day Primordial Performance
Bcaa- Alri Chained out / Primordial Performance Ibcaa = 30-40g day
Super Cissus Rx - Usp labs 4 - 6 caps a day

PreWorkout - RPM appnut
(having a pre work out is my staple not necessarily rpm)

Glucose/ Insulin
I have Pslin, Anabolic Pump, and slinsane. I have multiple bottles of each and each are very effective. I will use what ever combo/mix Just that one of them will be used pre heavy carb meals.

I also have for sleep Ghenerate, I-gh-1, somodrin GH, and bulk 1 carboxy. but will most likley not use them during (atleast for the first bottle if i decide to run 2 maybe ill start to throw more in)
I sometimes take advil pm to help sleep, not often.

Also note i have some OEP and the bottle of Recreate that I got free (plus another half a bottle already) I MAY use for energy or if i know ill have to work long hours with little time to eat. it will be sparingly

Of course Protein! I have some Trutein mix 5lbs and micellar casein 6lbs on the way, i will comment on those as well.

I have used many supplements, i think the entire usp labs line. Been taking Cissus every day for years. anabolic pump and pslin are staples. Liked jack3ed, and loved powerful. I did not Respond to Prime at all (even run very high) I love recreate and oep. I have also had good experiences with Usp labs in terms of customer service issues. I do not promote any company and will be honest because i spent money for this.

STATs/History
My avitar pic is very recent, but obviously flexed. I will most likely do Before/after pics.
I sit between 180 - 185 and am a natural lifter. I graduated Highschool at 130. I wrestled, took Judo, Jujitsu, and Hapkido. In college i got lazy ate ****ty. Budwiser, Hot Pockets, Doritos... I was 165-170 and chubby! i Began lifting to loose weight, and got stronger, and stronger from newbie gains. I was able to get skinny again, then focused on strength. over the next 4-5 years i bulked to 205-210 but have cleaned my diet way up since college and the reduced drinking has brought me to 180-185 ish

Weight 180
height 6ft
PRs
Bench-315x3
Power clean and press - 245 locked out
squat 475 (christmas eve @ 200 lbs not going to happen right now)

I have not done heavy deads in so long I dont even remember, I think it is mentioned in my sig. I straight leg close stance dead lift mostly now, i will most likely get flamed for this

Clean and Snatch (i call them Clean Snatch and think thats why i love to do them...) 185 but im just learning these.

Other than those lifts i use a Rest-Pause style to train.

Questions and Comments welcome!

 

[MM11]

So I must apologize greatly for the log ending short. i ended up getting sick, while i thought i was over trained i was actually just starting to get sick.

Finial review

Pink magic was an effective supplement in the following areas in my experience

Hardining
Vascularity
Nutrient Partitioning
Strength
Mood

I felt little until week three, where the (pink) magic happened. I feel out of interest of selling the product USP exaggerated its effects, but it is effective. the first thing i noticed at the end if the first week was vascularity, and it got better and better. my mood also got much better mid second week. but the third week was when i really started to hit PRs and consistently. I should also add i matched previous prs at 20 lbs lighter! not to shabby for a natty product.

I was able to stay lean even with a calorie increase. and after the third week my muscles started to look very dense. even with a slight increase in body fat my muscles looked harder. I will say i did NOT end up wearing XL shirts by the end of the bottle. (i ran a bottle plus about 2 weeks) but in my pictures i feel there is a noticeable body comp improvement. (pics in this thread last page)

Would i recommend this? If your a n.ew lifter or trying to find a short cut no. but if your already interested in buying it, you wont go wrong. If you have a good foundation yes i do recommend it. i cannot attribute to any effect on testosterone levels as i did not have bloods taken. but overall i had a great experience with pink magic. Personally ill grab another bottle sometime (sale?) and run that with the rest of the bottle i have.

I attached flexed and unflexed before and after pics. the wonderful thing was i kept the same diet when i was sick and did not loose any weight! i have been taking it easy back in the gym and have not gone heavy yet. but my weight is still 187 (my ending was 188ish) so all in all i have added around 2 lbs lean muscle and kept it (plus fat and glycogen to make up the rest of the increase) (also those stats are not backed up by measurements, just personal opinion of my body comp changes, note that my opinion may or may not be correct but should not hold any weight as a true statement)

again i apologize for the sudden stop, no posting on my situation. this was a montley structured log, it was my first one. for my next log ill do some things different. feel free to question away!

 

[MM11]

Day 1 was Tuesday. In summary 4 caps preworkout (30 mins) and felt great. It was leg day and i had a great leg day, infact thats why i wanted to log it because i had such a good first work out i wanted to track the whole way through to look back after and gather an opinion as a whole... I could have just been having a good day.

Squats went great!
warm up
405lbs x 5 (not my record, but more than usual)
455lbs x 2
455lbs x 1
405lbs x 3
ATG squats (do these right after makes em feel light)
315 x 10 (yeah one set, *****)
Note i usually will do 1 set of 20. not always ATG it varies.

Calf Raises, 2 plates each side drop set to 1 plate each side rest pause style (slow down, pause stretch, slow up) and streching between each set
x 4 sets

Close Stance Straight Leg Dead Lift
Warm up
225 x 12
315 x 6
315 x 8
315 x 3+1 more rep

leg extentions and hammstring curls rest pause style and a drop set of calves later and i was out.

I dont think the Pink will kick in that fast.

 

[MM11]

Weds off
Thursday (today)

Pslin and a hearty breakfast was my pre work out today, but i had to go to the gym at work and its not great. I Just tried to get a good work out in.

Preacher curls rest pause style, dont know how much the bar weighs, but 35lb plates on each side 8+5+2 = 15 reps plus 10 regular speed curls after Rest Pause

Dips
Body weight 10
+45 x6 (saving energy)
+90 x6
+140 x1
+140 x1
+135 x1
+90 x 3
body weight x 8
I love dips.

Hammer curls
50lb dumbells each hand.
4 sets 8,5,5,4

Hang clean Snatch
135 x5,6,3,2,1,1

Reverse barbell curls, Just the bar, slow 4 sets didnt count but its more about how long.

Arnold/Dumbell shoulder press superset.
1 Arnold + 1 Press = 1 rep
didnt count reps just did 3 sets of as many as i could.

Consumed a lot of calories today. Close to 3 lbs of deli meat over 4 whole wheat sandwiches, greek yougert. edamame, blueberries, pecans and walnuts.

Mood was good, No magic to report as of yet. way to early

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Subbed. Nice baseline lifts and physique.

 

[emiliozapata]

please reference my avatar. I am 6 feet tall and weigh 195, now unless you got toothpicks for legs something doesn't add up!

 

[wontstop985]

Good lifts. Sub'd!

 

[Mongo97]

good luck im in

 

[MM11]

please reference my avatar. I am 6 feet tall and weigh 195, now unless you got toothpicks for legs something doesn't add up!

sir that pic is posed with good lighting. I Will have flexed/unflexed start and end photos from the same mirror and distance from the mirror.
In my opinion my arms are small. My upper legs i am proud of, my calves are genetically small but with a lot of work they have come a long way! also i may be just a hair shy of 6ft, like .25 an inch.

 

[MM11]

I am very excited to have everyone subD. it will help me not break the log and put more time and effort in! If there is anything anyone would like to see please let me know! I have gotten a lot from AM and want to give back.

 

[MM11]

Here is core starting pics, unflexed and flexed. I am sorry i had to crop the hell out of these so they are bad... I will work on the pics. lighting was horrible as well, but they got messed up during my croping.. If anyone has any advice on pic posting please share! I also tried leg shots to show they are not pins.. but as you can see im using an IPhone and it just didnt work.. im going to work on getting a camera.

 

[emiliozapata]

ok, i retract my statement cause in that avatar pic there is no way you look 6ft 180!
good luck on the run sub'd for unsponsored log

 

[MM11]

Day 4 182lbs...
My weight varies depending which gym i go to, the gym at work im always lighter, today i was at the regular gym

rpm 45 mins pre work out
Pink Magic 25 mins pre work out (4 caps)

Today i worked on explosive power... and was crunched for time, please dont poke fun.

Power clean and press
225x1
225x1
230x1
235x1
225x1

Speed hang cleans
135x20
135x10

Pull ups
Body Weight x 10 wide grip
BW x 8 wide grip
BW x 5 slow w. reg grip (5 sec up, 5 sec pause at top, 5 sec lower) these cashed me out

kettle Bell Swings
100lbs x 10
100lbs x 10
100lbs x 12

Time 42 mins total. (including streching)

I forgot to post i am 24 years old with just under 7 years lifting. i played college rugby for 4 years. Hooker (no one else to fill the spot) Flanker (main position) and some times second row if needed (not usually)
15 years of martial arts was ended by a sliped disc in my neck my senior year of highschool, which is when i started to get lazy and gain fat.
most work outs are done on empty stomach, with LBA (lean beef aminos from truprotein.com) drank walking in.

Intra work out drink
9g dicreatine malate
3-4g beta alanine(PP)
20g ibcaa (pp)
2 scoops chained out (mostly for flavor i love the stuff)
all mixed in a half gallon waterbottle drank during work out

Power cleans and press scare me as i fell a few months back trying to do them off no sleep, they felt easy today but was hesitant to go heavier.

Pink magic... I have been in a great mood since starting, but am usually in a good mood anyways. i feel good today.

I will try to get better pics posted, as well other parts of the body. the lighting was not complementary but ill use the same lighing for after pics so it wont matter.

i noticed in the pics i only flexed my abs ha... again my after pics will be as similar to before as possible, i could easily change angles, lighting, mirrors,ect to skew results but im not doing that, thos pics are brutally honest... I am not happy with they way they turned out (the way i look) this is not an ego log though...

One more note, many of my posts will be done on my iPhone so please bear with me.

 

[carpee]

I'll be watching..

the LoseIt! app rules! haha

 

[MM11]

I'll be watching..

the LoseIt! app rules! haha

Yes it's really helped my diet. Highly recomended!

 

[MrBigPR]

It's so geared towards losing weights it's funny, nonetheless tracks pretty well. I also like the add ur own food option and that it's free.

Subbed bro, you've got a great startng point.

 

[MrBigPR]

Ohh yea and ur crazy going straight to 405 on those squats on the first set :lol:

 

[MM11]

It's so geared towards losing weights it's funny, nonetheless tracks pretty well. I also like the add ur own food option and that it's free.

Subbed bro, you've got a great startng point.

Honored to have you MrBig. I feel great when it tells me I'm over my cals for the day. I get a good laugh. I love once I put a food in it's saved. I eat pretty much the same foods so the longer I've used it the easier my life has become. And can't hate it being free.

 

[MrBigPR]

It's pretty good. I'm developing a Bodybuilding version that takes good fats in account and other misconceptions covered up by just what's on paper. I do so much activity I'm like 2000 cals over per day yet am gaining LBM daily :lol:.

 

[rochabp]

oh yeah im subd, im on the fence weather i think PM is legit or not

 

[MM11]

oh yeah im subd, im on the fence weather i think PM is legit or not

I am to friend. Usp labs is a stand up company but prime didn't do anything for me. Not saying it's junk. I just didn't respond, I'm hoping for more from pink magic. I actually had great recomp effects from high dosed cissus though. Different strokes eh.

 

[rochabp]

I am to friend. Usp labs is a stand up company but prime didn't do anything for me. Not saying it's junk. I just didn't respond, I'm hoping for more from pink magic. I actually had great recomp effects from high dosed cissus though. Different strokes eh.

yup i liked their AP but this might shock you, jack3d wasnt "da bomb" for me it was just okay

 

[MM11]

It's pretty good. I'm developing a Bodybuilding version that takes good fats in account and other misconceptions covered up by just what's on paper. I do so much activity I'm like 2000 cals over per day yet am gaining LBM daily :lol:.

When your done let me know, id love to test it.

 

[MM11]

day 4
8 caps total
Diet as recorded via Lose it iphone app...
net cals. - 3149
protein = 299.3g (100 from shakes)
carbs = 242.5g
-fiber - 72g (not all foods include this info though)
sugars - 121.1g (lots from fruits, again this is not a mandatory field so its skewed)]
fat 107g

pro-38%, carb-31%, fat31%

I always believed in having a balanced diet, this isnt to bad.

foods i ate...
60g whey (40 post work out 20 later)
40g casein (with the 20g whey)
3 sausage links
2 apples, banana and 3 cups of blue berries. i love blueberries.
1 cup edamame (lots of protein im still not sure what these even are)
7 eggs (scrambled with hot sauce)
3 ounces of steak (left overs, and that is rounding weight down it may be closer to 4)
Chicken/Ham sandwitch on wheat bread.

and i was in fear of not getting calories in so i had
3tsp peanut butter.

this was split up across 3 meals, a snack, a post work out shake, and a shake 2 hours before bed. shakes made with water, only because i ran out of milk, i love milk. water is unusual for me to use with shakes.

 

[hardknock]

Nice numbers, 245 clp? That is not shabby at all.

Wanna see where this PM is going to take you though, in!

 

[MM11]

I would like to thank everyone giving me support and bearing with me on my first log

 

[GeekPoop]

youre pretty strong bud nice lifts

 

[MM11]

youre pretty strong bud nice lifts

Thank you sir. Strength has always been main concern. To me lifting is my golf, I try to improve my numbers like a golfer trys to reduce his handicap and it's my favorite way to spend myfree time when I have some. Only in golf they aim for lower numbers obviously I try to raise mine.

Not to say I wouldn't mind getting bigger and/or leaner. It's just not AS important to me.

 

[rochabp]

I would like to thank everyone giving me support and bearing with me on my first log

thank you for doing this man, you better be unbiased though i dont want to hear none of this "i felt good but didnt add any lbs but its still good" if it does nothing i want you to say "this sucks, never buy this"

 

[GQNemesis]

A lil late but I'm here

subbd

 

[MM11]

thank you for doing this man, you better be unbiased though i dont want to hear none of this "i felt good but didnt add any lbs but its still good" if it does nothing i want you to say "this sucks, never buy this"

I will be 100% honest, i spent money i worked hard to earn. So if anything id be upset if i get nothing out of it... I have absolutely no reason to fluff results and I tried my best to develop a good standard to start. The pics where taken at my house so i will use same lighting mirror ect. ill report my diet and lifts, so there wont be questions about anything like that. I felt i was a perfect candidate because im not very known in the AM community, but for the most part i got everything in check. If my diet/training doesnt look good to any one feel free to comment, please take into consideration i do have a job and a life. if i skip a day working out because i work 16 hours that day, well thats how i was able to afford to buy supps in the first place.

Lets all be real for a second. I am NOT expecting 15lb gain. not even 10. a 10lb gain in muscle is actually a huge feat, and for a natty it is a years worth of hard diet/training/sups. My lifts will be my main judge, ill comment on my experience, and the pics will show any body comp changes. 1lb of lean muscle gain can = close to 20lbs on major lifts, or i can weigh 10 lbs more by excess water weight. I promise to be as honest and real as possible, I have faith in USP labs or i would not have purchased this product. I am also taking RPM which is a wonderful sup in itself, and with diet/training in order, i will make gains regardless. rpm is pretty much a staple unless its time to cycle off, so i felt it was fair to include it. all other supps i feel are fair as they are staples of mine. so many logs now a days are Stacks of 5 different sups, and i agree no results to show, but still get great praise at the end.

It is early yet, day 5. The most effective sup i ever took was the old activate xtreme (the new one doesnt do it for me) it kicked in at week 3 and i felt like a god. anyways just got home from working overtime! ill report back in a bit. its my off day from the gym, but i was unhappy with being rushed yesterday, so i think im gona go anyways http://anabolicminds.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[Mongo97]

I will be 100% honest, i spent money i worked hard to earn. So if anything id be upset if i get nothing out of it... I have absolutely no reason to fluff results and I tried my best to develop a good standard to start. The pics where taken at my house so i will use same lighting mirror ect. ill report my diet and lifts, so there wont be questions about anything like that. I felt i was a perfect candidate because im not very known in the AM community, but for the most part i got everything in check. If my diet/training doesnt look good to any one feel free to comment, please take into consideration i do have a job and a life. if i skip a day working out because i work 16 hours that day, well thats how i was able to afford to buy supps in the first place.

Lets all be real for a second. I am NOT expecting 15lb gain. not even 10. a 10lb gain in muscle is actually a huge feat, and for a natty it is a years worth of hard diet/training/sups. My lifts will be my main judge, ill comment on my experience, and the pics will show any body comp changes. 1lb of lean muscle gain can = close to 20lbs on major lifts, or i can weigh 10 lbs more by excess water weight. I promise to be as honest and real as possible, I have faith in USP labs or i would not have purchased this product. I am also taking RPM which is a wonderful sup in itself, and with diet/training in order, i will make gains regardless. rpm is pretty much a staple unless its time to cycle off, so i felt it was fair to include it. all other supps i feel are fair as they are staples of mine. so many logs now a days are Stacks of 5 different sups, and i agree no results to show, but still get great praise at the end.

It is early yet, day 5. The most effective sup i ever took was the old activate xtreme (the new one doesnt do it for me) it kicked in at week 3 and i felt like a god. anyways just got home from working overtime! ill report back in a bit. its my off day from the gym, but i was unhappy with being rushed yesterday, so i think im gona go anyways http://anabolicminds.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

sounds good. I'm interested in this product so I'm hoping it works out for ya!

 

[Whacked]

YES, we concur. This is an UNSPONSORED thread. Let's keep it REAL for all of us. If it's a great product = post up. If it blows = post up. Neither of these end results (good or bad) necessarily dictate/determine another's outcome anyway as there are too many variables amongst use anyway. So screw the fluff.

Thanks and good luck buddy

I will be 100% honest, i spent money i worked hard to earn. So if anything id be upset if i get nothing out of it... I have absolutely no reason to fluff results and I tried my best to develop a good standard to start.

 

[james122]

:veryhappy:in

 

[MM11]

Yesterday saturday day 5
i ended up going to the gym, wish i didnt. I usually train 2 days on 1 off, this was my third day in a row, but i felt 1 day was half assed. i had only gotten 4 hours sleep, and worked. I was dragging, achy, weak, i know better i could have rested and gone 100% today.

Work out.

Bench
warm up shoulders.
225x8 warm up
315x1 <- easy but my 110lb girlfriend was my spotter.....
315x1
275 x 4 super set(ss.) with flys (40lbs) 10seconds down, 15 seconds strech!(painful), and up slow
275x6 with the same super sets after a good 4 -5 min break from last set

isolated hammer strength plate loaded machine
warm up 2 plates each side
3 plates each side x 5, 8
3 plates +25lbs each side x 1
3 plates each sidex2 drop set to...
...2 plates each side x 12

lat pull downs push pull style
120 lbs x 6,4,3 + 8 regular reps finishing last set
*these done 5 sec down hold for 10 and up for 10 with 30 seconds interval between sets

after that my tendonitis was flaring up, i wasnt able to keep working out. if i add this to the work out the day before, together its a good work out. Forcing myself to skip today even though im off work.

diet yesterday
FATS -119.3g (33%)
CARBS -234.5 (29%)
PRO - 299.7g (37%)

Cals - 3,208

*this did not include the fact i went out last night and had a few beers. nothing crazy i like getting dressed up and going downtown with my girl. Im not in college any more and dont try to act like it. a guess would be around 8 beers. i dont go out often, maybe once a month or less. i had a lot of fun, resting today its hard.

I also wanted to note i am following the dosing on the label, but i am not taking any days off. (6 caps a day/8 work out days)

 

[MM11]

forgot to add weight 183.6 + 1.6 lb muscle gain over night!!!



































sorry that was a joke.

 

[GQNemesis]

lol keep at it

 

[MM11]

I noticed about yesterdays diet the macro breakdown only adds up to 99%

 

[abformulations]

subd!...Im in! nice numbers...

 

[abformulations]

Yesterday saturday day 5
i ended up going to the gym, wish i didnt. I usually train 2 days on 1 off, this was my third day in a row, but i felt 1 day was half assed. i had only gotten 4 hours sleep, and worked. I was dragging, achy, weak, i know better i could have rested and gone 100% today.

Work out.

Bench
warm up shoulders.
225x8 warm up
315x1 <- easy but my 110lb girlfriend was my spotter.....
315x1
275 x 4 super set(ss.) with flys (40lbs) 10seconds down, 15 seconds strech!(painful), and up slow
275x6 with the same super sets after a good 4 -5 min break from last set

isolated hammer strength plate loaded machine
warm up 2 plates each side
3 plates each side x 5, 8
3 plates +25lbs each side x 1
3 plates each sidex2 drop set to...
...2 plates each side x 12

lat pull downs push pull style
120 lbs x 6,4,3 + 8 regular reps finishing last set
*these done 5 sec down hold for 10 and up for 10 with 30 seconds interval between sets

after that my tendonitis was flaring up, i wasnt able to keep working out. if i add this to the work out the day before, together its a good work out. Forcing myself to skip today even though im off work.

diet yesterday
FATS -119.3g (33%)
CARBS -234.5 (29%)
PRO - 299.7g (37%)

Cals - 3,208

*this did not include the fact i went out last night and had a few beers. nothing crazy i like getting dressed up and going downtown with my girl. Im not in college any more and dont try to act like it. a guess would be around 8 beers. i dont go out often, maybe once a month or less. i had a lot of fun, resting today its hard.

I also wanted to note i am following the dosing on the label, but i am not taking any days off. (6 caps a day/8 work out days)

How are u dosing ur pm? all 8 before workout?

 

[MM11]

are you trying to gain strength size? 3200 calories seems like very little for someone of your size if thats your goal.

Edit: Dunno why that thumbs down is there, didn't mean to do that.

I'm open to suggestions to improve diet. How would I incease cals? More carbs? Fat? Pro?

 

[carpee]

I'm open to suggestions to improve diet. How would I incease cals? More carbs? Fat? Pro?

How much do you weigh? I bulk on 3200 calories, so I don't think its that low

I am carb sensitive and if I bulk on crazy cals, I just put on fat.

If you do increase, you could add in a monounsaturated/MCT's mixture for extra fats and a little boost in testosterone

 

[MM11]

I weigh around 180-185 being that it's summer I am not in a full bulk mode more a lean bulk. I will look into picking up coconut oil. I've read some good things.

 

[carpee]

I weigh around 180-185 being that it's summer I am not in a full bulk mode more a lean bulk. I will look into picking up coconut oil. I've read some good things.

That's just about where I am too...I'd say 3200 is exactly where I'd be for a lean bulk

 

[MM11]

Anyone else have input or an opinion? I'd like to hear peoples suggestions. I think I could afford to eat a little more.

 

[simon01]

Curious to see how it goes for you. I hope the guy at GNC didn't just see a sucker coming.......

 

[ProteinMurder]

Sponsored logs are generally sickening suck up affairs. Stoked to see a thorough, unsponsored one go up with pics and all. Nice work mate, good luck im in for the ride!

 

[MM11]

Curious to see how it goes for you. I hope the guy at GNC didn't just see a sucker coming.......

I got my bottles during the Inner circle release sale.

 

[jontrainer]

i would keep your food intake where it is. This way you can see if the product is helping you make your progress. Plus you said your main concern is that your lifts move up, not necessarily if you get bigger. good luck!

 

[votum]

It's early enough to up your food though. Honestly you could just throw in a heavy shake. 2 scoops PRO, some oat CHO and some berries or something to add on 5-600 cals. I've only been at this hard for a few months now, but I am a big fan of a heavy shake or meal within an hour of sleeping

Also, subbed. My IC boxes just came in (I got 2 lol. Wrong address on the first order but they corrected it and shipped it anyway) and I am excited to see an unsponsored log. Will definitely be following this