SHR 6/21 Round-table Discussion On Strength And Hypertrophy Acquisition Part 1
- 09-21-2011, 07:40 AM
- 09-27-2011, 09:16 AM
Ok yes this is my first post. However I wasn't born yesterday. All in all I guess a grain of salt is justified with what I say!
Great show. They are all great shows but this was really great.
Brown nosing aside I didn't actually agree with everything that was said.
The question of what comes first, strength or size, in my very humble opinion, may depend on the type of training.
If I had to classify this I would dare to say that the higher the intensity the lower the volume (HIT on one end) strength indeed proceeds size.
This is what Arthur Jones and then later Mike Mentzer really preached.
However on the other side of the spectrum high volume low weight (relative to 100% effort or 1RM) such as a Vince Gironda Program of 8x8 or 10x10 may have the opposite effect.
I have done both extremes for periods of time to see the changes in my body. HIT I most certainly increase strength a lot before I notice (or anyone else) much in the way of size.
However, with a high volume light weight I start to increase my muscular endurance right away but the strength comes later. Along with the endurance (increased mitochondria?) comes a size increase right way. I transformed my body, put on a lot of size, in less than 90 days with this type of training. Over that same period of time the endurance was no longer a limiting factor and muscular strength started to come.
Just my observations
- 09-28-2011, 07:32 PM
Interesting idea - alternating Vince Gironda 8x8 or 10x10 training with heavy training. I haven't done anything like 8x8 or 10x10 in a long time. I am intrigued by the fast difference you saw in your body. It makes intuitive sense that such a dramatic shift would work this way. Say you do 8x8, 10x10, 10x12 for three weeks or so, and then 5x5, 3x3, 1-rep max for three weeks or so - with each of those rep/set schemes being the focus of one week. Throw in some sprints and shoulder/hip mobility+ light shoulder work and you have my plan for the next months!
09-29-2011, 09:52 AM
You may want to do the initial period of high volume for a longer period of time. My idea is to take a few months to build the endurance. At some point you will find that your endurance is so good that 30 seconds of rest seems like a really long time between sets and each set is only very slightly more difficult. That is when my strength started to really get better.
My feeling on this is based in cycling endurance training. It is very traditional to train several months at a slower but longer pace. At some point higher intensity training is added. The general idea is the better base you develop the higher the peak.
Its all just muscle so we should be able to borrow the ideas. I once knew a guy that was huge -5,'11 300. He trained consistently light. Then all of a sudden he decided to train for some power lifting events. His massive musculature allowed him to squat 8 plates a side with just kneewraps. His deadlift was similar. I was amazed. I had seen really really strong guys that were drugged to the hilt training heavy always and never get anywhere near this.
Just food for thought. I am really addicted to the volume right now and will continue doing it. I trained as a kid heavy and hard but my progress in 3 months is as fast as it has ever been.
09-29-2011, 09:44 PM
I appreciate your comments. I'll try going high-volume and fairly light for a while. I also think I'll occasionally train heavy because that's fun!
09-29-2011, 09:48 PM
- 5'10" 190 lbs.
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Rep Power
- Lv. Percent
09-30-2011, 07:19 AM
Please update on this thread with your results etc. I had my wife training this way and I was surprised at how fast she started to get some real muscle. She is more hit and miss so lost some of that however. Although she is back at it.
No doubt on what Mattrag says. DO the best you can with those other important factors.
A note on all of what may or may not (best I got) be important on this. At first the low rest 8x8 (15-30 Seconds) between sets WILL leave you burning. However, keep at it. Your endurance will improve and that will basically go away (not for legs as much on me). I do not go to complete failure. I stop the rep before typically. Really, if my form suffers I stop the set as it just means my muscles have gone to failure even if I could recruit other muscles to continue to move the weight.
Also, when in doubt go lighter. I think it is much much more important to work the muscle with full contraction at the top, full range, and as little momentum as practical (I am not a super slow kinda guy). I do however do 3/4 movements on squats, pulldowns or any movement that takes emphasis off the muscle. So a squat for me is as low as you can go (rock bottom for me) and 3/4 up. Pulldown is touching my chest and 3/4 up -pulling my lats forward and out on the way up etc.
I strictly think of using the weight as a tool not just a struggle to lift it. Remember pumping iron when Arnold talks about being like a Sculpter?That's you. I honestly think the light weights allowing you to place the emphasis where you want it is half the battle.
Your biggest battle will be see the guy next to you benching 300 pounds and you have some whimpy weight. Just ignore the temptation to lift for ego.
I train 5-6 days for about 45-1 hour. I only do about 4-5 exercises per workout.
Anyway like you said have some great fun. I am really interested to hear how it is working for you.
10-11-2011, 08:28 AM
I have not yet dropped to a 15-30 second wait between sets. I couldn't even bench press 8 sets x 8 with 115 with a brief wait (30-60 seconds) a couple weeks ago. I am going to try it again soon. The loss of strength after 2-3 low-wait sets is remarkable for me.
I was not timing the wait, but yesterday I quasi-supersetted ~8 rep per leg sets of step-ups with 20 pound dumbbells in each hand with 6-10 rep (broad range) sets of 135 pound trapbar deadlift. I waited about a minute between supersets. I looked around and no one was sweating harder than me on the weight room floor. There were some strong guys in there, not fitness enthusiasts. Like you said Stephenlay, one has to focus on themselves and not the guys military pressing heavy dumbbells or squatting 315+ like I saw yesterday.
I'm sticking with the higher volume for a while and will see how quickly my endurance grows, and hopefully so will rise my strength.
Oh, and Stephenlay, great point about ending the set when the form falters. I found that I had to stay more mentally focused on my form with the low-wait, high-volume sets. I usually ended sets with the sense that I had more in the tank, but a detected loss of stability.
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