1 week after pct, leakage starting, start mass fx?

LatsRus

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hey guys! its LatsRus and im back in action baby! got back in from the Fiji islands a days ago and ive been working out the past 3 days. ive lost 12 lbs since being away for 3 weeks but man it was an incredible experience. heres my query -

my nips were going on and off with the leakage in Fiji, 2 days id be fine, then it would happen for a day, then the next day go away, etc. etc. but now the past 3 days they havnt stopped. this is the beginning of week 5 since finishing the d-drol, and 1 week since stopping pct (nolvadex). if i started the new mass fx, would it make the leakage worse? im not sure how dianivil interacts with prolactin, if at all. i need to get ahold of some more p5p and b6 to help get it under control but in the meantime can i start mass fx and halodrol 60 (the one with 6-oxo) to help get me back on track?

thanks -
 
tnick7

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Personally I would get the leakage under control first. First off get some blood work to see if prolactin levels are high ( which I guess they will be if your leaking a lot, if they only leak when played with or very little it may be estrogenic). Once thats deterimined if it is prolactin I would look into L-Dopa, which will raise dopamine and thus lower prolactin. I have seen studies to disprove B6 and p-5-p. If the problem stil persists I guess you are gonna want to get so caber. Best of luck to ya!
 
slow-mun

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hey guys! its LatsRus and im back in action baby! got back in from the Fiji islands a days ago and ive been working out the past 3 days. ive lost 12 lbs since being away for 3 weeks but man it was an incredible experience. heres my query -

my nips were going on and off with the leakage in Fiji, 2 days id be fine, then it would happen for a day, then the next day go away, etc. etc. but now the past 3 days they havnt stopped. this is the beginning of week 5 since finishing the d-drol, and 1 week since stopping pct (nolvadex). if i started the new mass fx, would it make the leakage worse? im not sure how dianivil interacts with prolactin, if at all. i need to get ahold of some more p5p and b6 to help get it under control but in the meantime can i start mass fx and halodrol 60 (the one with 6-oxo) to help get me back on track?

thanks -
Do not use Halodrol Liquid-Gels or MassFX if you have prolactin troubles. In all seriousness, you need to probably use one the previously recommended products and I would not put much faith in Nolvadex as others do to help.
 
tnick7

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Linkage por favor?


I have seen more threads on delayed gyno/ leakage etc from epi than anything else recently, i've said this already, but maybe just more people are taking it so by default there will be more instances of side effects?

As far as controlling prolactin, i go with http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/95917-reducing-prolactin.html
It's on BB, will try to find, but can't remember where it is atm. It was posted by Kernkraft.

I asked PA about the gynp/leakage from Havoc/Epi. I have also heard a few people say Epi is a progestin, which PA said it definitely isn't. It may have small progestational properties, but all compounds do, epi doesnt have enough to be a progestin.

He said the reason people are getting the rebound gyno is basically because its shutting them down pretty hard and its an estrogen rebound. Makes sense to me, many people say how mild it is and there has been an influx of people running epi with inadequate OTC PCT's.

He said the leakage can occur from estrogen gyno when people play with their nipples they can leak :D
 

futurepilot

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It's on BB, will try to find, but can't remember where it is atm. It was posted by Kernkraft.

I asked PA about the gynp/leakage from Havoc/Epi. I have also heard a few people say Epi is a progestin, which PA said it definitely isn't. It may have small progestational properties, but all compounds do, epi doesnt have enough to be a progestin.

He said the reason people are getting the rebound gyno is basically because its shutting them down pretty hard and its an estrogen rebound. Makes sense to me, many people say how mild it is and there has been an influx of people running epi with inadequate OTC PCT's.

He said the leakage can occur from estrogen gyno when people play with their nipples they can leak :D
I can find it if its on BB, thanks.

Ill agree i see alot of OTC PCT, which i personally cant recomend, the way i see it shutdown is shut down. There no 2 ways about. It just worrys me when i see people like lat doing, what seems, a "normal" PCT and stil having problems.

Im not a chemistry wiz but i wonder if theres any possiblity its a longer chain than previously thought, like how after Deca you have to wait 2-3 weeks to start PCT. Does that even make sense?
 
Condition1

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Personally I can attest to P5P's effectiveness on cycle. Minor prolactin issue for 2-3 days, upped the dosage of p5p from 1 to 3 caps daily, and the problem subsided, not to return.

Either it was a HUGE coincidence, or P5P played a jedi mind trick placebo effect on my nipps (joking, please). Or, the p5p worked for me.
 
Kristofer68SS

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Do not use Halodrol Liquid-Gels or MassFX if you have prolactin troubles. In all seriousness, you need to probably use one the previously recommended products and I would not put much faith in Nolvadex as others do to help.

word.........not a fan of nolva here..........

so what next........caber? mega B6 or P5P, Vitex?
 
tnick7

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I can find it if its on BB, thanks.

Ill agree i see alot of OTC PCT, which i personally cant recomend, the way i see it shutdown is shut down. There no 2 ways about. It just worrys me when i see people like lat doing, what seems, a "normal" PCT and stil having problems.

Im not a chemistry wiz but i wonder if theres any possiblity its a longer chain than previously thought, like how after Deca you have to wait 2-3 weeks to start PCT. Does that even make sense?
Well ddrol is SD,PP,HD isnt it? Could be the PP causing the lactation but again I didnt think that was a progestin :confused:

IMO with these non-aromatizing compounds it's a nice idea to have a low dose AI in there so estrogen levels are slowly re-introduced. This isn't necessary on test etc because it doesnt crush estrogen levels. I like to use a low dose SERM with a low dose of ATD tapered up then back down (from 25mg EOD to 25mg ED then back down). Thus my PCT is actually 6 weeks. Just food for thought.

And Condition1 I can say I also have seen many people swear by p-5-p. However I would opt to go for L-Dopa as I have seen many swear by this, but seen nothing to disprove it.
 
Condition1

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And Condition1 I can say I also have seen many people swear by p-5-p. However I would opt to go for L-Dopa as I have seen many swear by this, but seen nothing to disprove it.
Can't argue with that, if p5p lets me down, i'll go the L-dopa route.
 
dkkon1

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P-5-P worked for me, so did Letro, which leads me to believe mine was estrogenic.
 
slow-mun

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word.........not a fan of nolva here..........

so what next........caber? mega B6 or P5P, Vitex?
I'd probably run Cabergoline. I don't dislike Nolvadex, its just that I've used it before to control a flare up and it wasn't very effective for controlling high prolactin levels. I've had decent results using mucuna pruriens, but if cabergoline is obtainable, then I wouldn't put it to chance.

FWIW, you don't have to run a progestin to have problems with prolactin. It just happens more often when using those.
 
EasyEJL

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Doctors give b6 (either pyridoxine hcl or p5p) to women who loose their babies to SIDS at 600mg a day for a week to stop lactation... so saying it doesn't work because of something posted at bb.com is pretty comical.
 
tnick7

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Doctors give b6 (either pyridoxine hcl or p5p) to women who loose their babies to SIDS at 600mg a day for a week to stop lactation... so saying it doesn't work because of something posted at bb.com is pretty comical.
Its was a study from PubMed, in fact it was to do with stopping women from lactating. I will find it, but I don't really think its comical
 
EasyEJL

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i'd like to see it. i've seen studies misquoted on bb.com enough times, to the point of them trying to use a study to prove exactly the opposite of the findings of the author of the study.
 
tnick7

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i'd like to see it. i've seen studies misquoted on bb.com enough times, to the point of them trying to use a study to prove exactly the opposite of the findings of the author of the study.
If the studies are posted by trolls I agree, but it was posted by someone that posts regularly and is very knowledgeable, here is the study:

Nutritionally relevant supplementation of vitamin B6 in lactating women: effect on plasma prolactin.

Andon MB, Howard MP, Moser PB, Reynolds RD.

Pharmacologic doses of vitamin B6 administered to lactating women have been reported to suppress plasma prolactin. As a result, some physicians have recommended restriction of vitamin B6 intake for lactating women. In the present investigation, 20 lactating women were given supplemental doses of vitamin B6, 0.5 to 4.0 mg/d, beginning 24 hours after delivery. Plasma prolactin, plasma pyridoxal phosphate, and breast milk total vitamin B6 concentrations were determined during the first 9 months postpartum. Women receiving the supplement of 4.0 mg compared with 0.5 mg of vitamin B6 per day had significantly higher plasma pyridoxal phosphate (P less than .01) and breast milk total vitamin B6 concentrations (P less than .05) beginning at 1 month postpartum and continuing through the duration of the study. Plasma prolactin concentrations were not significantly different between the two groups. The percentage of all women, regardless of treatment, in whom lactation persisted at 1 and 2 weeks and 1, 3, 6, and 9 months were 100%, 100%, 100%, 90%, 80%, and 65%, respectively. All women who ceased to lactate during the study reported doing so by choice. Nutritionally relevant doses of vitamin B6 elevated plasma pyridoxal phosphate and breast milk total vitamin B6 concentrations of lactating women without reducing plasma prolactin concentration or halting lactation.
 
Mulletsoldier

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If the studies are posted by trolls I agree, but it was posted by someone that posts regularly and is very knowledgeable, here is the study:
The Prolactin levels of a lactating female are unbelievably higher than that of a male with A.A.S. induced lactating. As well, those dosages are far lower than normally used in the A.A.S. context. Just some food for thought.
 
tnick7

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The Prolactin levels of a lactating female are unbelievably higher than that of a male with A.A.S. induced lactating. As well, those dosages are far lower than normally used in the A.A.S. context. Just some food for thought.
Very true. I won't say p-5-p or B6 won't work, that I really have no clue, in fact it probably does work looking at the real life experiences out there, but I would still personally opt to use L-Dopa, simply because I have seen studies to say increased Dopamine reduces Prolactin levels, and L-Dopa (as far as I know at the doses needed) is not toxic as B6 can be at doses used. JMO though
 
EasyEJL

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Very true. I won't say p-5-p or B6 won't work, that I really have no clue, in fact it probably does work looking at the real life experiences out there, but I would still personally opt to use L-Dopa, simply because I have seen studies to say increased Dopamine reduces Prolactin levels, and L-Dopa (as far as I know at the doses needed) is not toxic as B6 can be at doses used. JMO though
for me it would be the combo :D as p5p also has value as an aid in protein turnover. so I take 150mg daily anyhow
 
LatsRus

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thanks guys for all your responses. when i was on epistane and switched into d-drol i was having issues with leakage as well, only when i squeezed them it would come out however, so if what i am reading is true maybe it is more estro related than prolactin related, but i first used b6 at 500mgs/day but then after a few days of nothing happening i switched to p5p at 600mgs/day and that took care of it within a couple days. and i was on that all through the d-drol and then the pct. but when i stopped taking the p5p (it ran out while i was in Fiji) the leakage came back. this was even while on nolvadex, but it was minuscule leakage. then once stopping my pct of 4 weeks (40,20,20,10) it started up again a couple/few days later. it has not changed since ive been back the past few days. ive been taking mass - fx the past couple days and nothing has changed either.

so are we ALL in agreement that stopping mass-fx and getting the leakage until control first would be a BETTER idea? is this because the leakage may be harder to control while on mass fx? or just to ensure that my body has returned to normal before going on another supplement?
 
EasyEJL

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Yeah best to let your body settle down and not have anything affecting hormone levels at all and then get the leakage under control
 

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"All women who ceased to lactate during the study reported doing so by choice."

So let me get this straight, they said abracadabra and poof they stopped lactating? it had nothing to do with the b-6?


Plus it says "Nutritionally relevant doses" failed to reduce prolactin concentrations. I would love to know what those doses were, without those numbers this study isnt really helpful.
 
footster

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wow this is the first time I've heard of someone not swearing by Nolva. Thats all I hear to take as a pct. I mean is there a difference between gyno and lactating? I thought lactating and/or sensitive and enlarged nipples was all form of gyno. Maybe I'm wording it wrong.
 
slow-mun

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wow this is the first time I've heard of someone not swearing by Nolva. Thats all I hear to take as a pct. I mean is there a difference between gyno and lactating? I thought lactating and/or sensitive and enlarged nipples was all form of gyno. Maybe I'm wording it wrong.
Gyno and prolactin are not one in the same, but both have to do with a hormonal imbalance. Nolvadex does work extremely well at modulating estrogen, but I have not been impressed with its effects on prolactin.
 

ezza

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Whats up lats good to hear your holiday went well! man i think i have reccomended this to you before did you try it ? L-dopa + vit b6 (maybe 10mg nolva as well) i'd almost bet money this will work.if it doesn keep dosing the other stuff and add in caber.
 
natiels

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Nutritionally relevant supplementation of vitamin B6 in lactating women: effect on plasma prolactin.

Andon MB, Howard MP, Moser PB, Reynolds RD.

Pharmacologic doses of vitamin B6 administered to lactating women have been reported to suppress plasma prolactin. As a result, some physicians have recommended restriction of vitamin B6 intake for lactating women. In the present investigation, 20 lactating women were given supplemental doses of vitamin B6, 0.5 to 4.0 mg/d, beginning 24 hours after delivery. Plasma prolactin, plasma pyridoxal phosphate, and breast milk total vitamin B6 concentrations were determined during the first 9 months postpartum. Women receiving the supplement of 4.0 mg compared with 0.5 mg of vitamin B6 per day had significantly higher plasma pyridoxal phosphate (P less than .01) and breast milk total vitamin B6 concentrations (P less than .05) beginning at 1 month postpartum and continuing through the duration of the study. Plasma prolactin concentrations were not significantly different between the two groups. The percentage of all women, regardless of treatment, in whom lactation persisted at 1 and 2 weeks and 1, 3, 6, and 9 months were 100%, 100%, 100%, 90%, 80%, and 65%, respectively. All women who ceased to lactate during the study reported doing so by choice. Nutritionally relevant doses of vitamin B6 elevated plasma pyridoxal phosphate and breast milk total vitamin B6 concentrations of lactating women without reducing plasma prolactin concentration or halting lactation.
If you read the study carefully you will see that it is to determine whether or not a dose of .5-4mg/day(supplemental/nutritional dose) would reduce prolactin. It is NOT saying that 600mg/day has no effect.
 
EasyEJL

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a banana has .68mg of b6, 4oz of yellowfin tuna has 1.18mg so 4mg isn't much at all.
 
footster

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Gyno and prolactin are not one in the same, but both have to do with a hormonal imbalance. Nolvadex does work extremely well at modulating estrogen, but I have not been impressed with its effects on prolactin.
True True. Thats what I was thinking but thank you for clearing that up. Is prolactin more rare then gyno? I guess I mean in the sense of people who PCT properly.
 
tnick7

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If you read the study carefully you will see that it is to determine whether or not a dose of .5-4mg/day(supplemental/nutritional dose) would reduce prolactin. It is NOT saying that 600mg/day has no effect.

This dose of B6 can be toxic
 

futurepilot

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If you read the study carefully you will see that it is to determine whether or not a dose of .5-4mg/day(supplemental/nutritional dose).
So that would be the "Nutritionally relevant doses" they reference in the last sentance? It almost reads like their refering too other, unquanitifed, "NRD's"
 

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I can link you to about 20+ studies that show dosages of pyridoxine hcl at low dosages increasing prolactin and at high dosages causing nerve damage.
Im interested, lets see the studies.
 
Condition1

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If you want to mock what I posted on bb.com as comical go right ahead. But I get my studies, info, and base my opinion directly from studies on pubmed.com or directly from discussions with Dinoii. I'm sure he'd be interested in hearing your medical opinion. I can link you to about 20+ studies that show dosages of pyridoxine hcl at low dosages increasing prolactin and at high dosages causing nerve damage.

The reason why p-5-p or b6 invariably works (temporarily) is because it causes nerve damage at high dosages - your nipples invariably, especially at the ducts have a high amount of nerve endings which is why when you lick some *****es tits they get all excited because it's extremely sensitive - so kill the sensititivy, damage the duct ending, be my guest.

For those interested I'd research L-dopa or derivatives or percursors etc... l-tyrosine, mucuna pruriens (found in AN IGF-2).
I've yet to experience any problems getting erect nipples on P-5-P. I've yet to experience any problems getting erect nipples months after using P-5-P.

I've got erect nipples right now, but nerve damage is permanent or takes years for very little recovery from damage so...
 
EasyEJL

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If you want to mock what I posted on bb.com as comical go right ahead. But I get my studies, info, and base my opinion directly from studies on pubmed.com or directly from discussions with Dinoii. I'm sure he'd be interested in hearing your medical opinion. I can link you to about 20+ studies that show dosages of pyridoxine hcl at low dosages increasing prolactin and at high dosages causing nerve damage.

The reason why p-5-p or b6 invariably works (temporarily) is because it causes nerve damage at high dosages - your nipples invariably, especially at the ducts have a high amount of nerve endings which is why when you lick some *****es tits they get all excited because it's extremely sensitive - so kill the sensititivy, damage the duct ending, be my guest.

For those interested I'd research L-dopa or derivatives or percursors etc... l-tyrosine, mucuna pruriens (found in AN IGF-2).
Can you show one study that shows any damage of any sort from P5P at any dose? not pyridoxine HCL.
 

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