best ph for cutting recomp

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  1. Exclamation best ph for cutting recomp


    hey all i need your views i wanna start a cycle to cut im looking at epi or h drol from cel but im not sure as ive heard furazadrol is for cutting so what do you guys think


  2. hmm no 1 got any advice on this one please would help me alot
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  3. 11-oxo

  4. hmm 11 oxo by its self from logs ive read its good but not the best choice ? Do you even need pct for 11 oxo

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Gym4Life View Post
    hmm 11 oxo by its self from logs ive read its good but not the best choice ? Do you even need pct for 11 oxo
    yes a light pct is needed. maybe epi/11oxo or hdrol/11oxo. i think 4 weeks of epi/11oxo would really lean you out

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Gym4Life View Post
    hmm 11 oxo by its self from logs ive read its good but not the best choice ? Do you even need pct for 11 oxo
    If taking 3 or less per day no PCT is needed as it just acts as a cort blocker mostly.

    With 11-oxo you can run it @ 6+ per day on a cut for 6-8 weeks. You can keep your strength and possibly add a little as well as keep your muscle while losing fat.

    With Hdrol and Havoc/EPI you can expect to gain strength and likely muscle while losing fat while on a cut/recomp depending on your diet.

    Hdrol and Havoc/EPI are both great for a recomp with the main difference is Havoc/EPI are stronger.

  7. ok guys thanks alot for all your advice i will use 11 oxo with h drol or epi which one would be best for the fat loss epi or h drol i know alot use epi for culling

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Gym4Life View Post
    ok guys thanks alot for all your advice i will use 11 oxo with h drol or epi which one would be best for the fat loss epi or h drol i know alot use epi for culling
    EPI+11OXO. anti cortisol+anti estrogen=lots of fat loss

  9. any suggestions for a epi 110x0 cycle could i pulse the epi

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Gym4Life View Post
    any suggestions for a epi 110x0 cycle could i pulse the epi
    One of the Ergo reps recommended the best way to run these two would be 4 weeks Havoc/EPI followed directly by 4-6 weeks of 11-oxo. For example, the recomp cycle he gave me the nod for was:

    Weeks 1-4 Havoc 40/40/40/40
    Weeks 5-10 11-oxo 8 per day
    Weeks 11-14 PCT (Nolva 40/30/20/10)

    The above is my planned cycle with a lot of support supps. I'm currently on week 2 of the Havoc and will post a picture log of it once completed.

    Using 11-oxo this way is supposed to allow you to keep the gains from Havoc while having extended time to cut and even slightly recover as 11-oxo is less suppressive than Havoc making PCT easier for keeping gains as well.
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  11. ah cool that looks like a great cycle thanks for the information all

  12. Could clen be worked into this cycle, and if so, what would the recommended addition of clen into the cycle look like?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Newbie40plus View Post
    Could clen be worked into this cycle, and if so, what would the recommended addition of clen into the cycle look like?
    i would add the clen in during the 11oxo not the epi. soo week5

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Reseg View Post
    One of the Ergo reps recommended the best way to run these two would be 4 weeks Havoc/EPI followed directly by 4-6 weeks of 11-oxo. For example, the recomp cycle he gave me the nod for was:

    Weeks 1-4 Havoc 40/40/40/40
    Weeks 5-10 11-oxo 8 per day
    Weeks 11-14 PCT (Nolva 40/30/20/10)

    The above is my planned cycle with a lot of support supps. I'm currently on week 2 of the Havoc and will post a picture log of it once completed.

    Using 11-oxo this way is supposed to allow you to keep the gains from Havoc while having extended time to cut and even slightly recover as 11-oxo is less suppressive than Havoc making PCT easier for keeping gains as well.
    usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

    your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better

  15. Quote Originally Posted by krogtaar View Post
    usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

    your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better
    I'm somewhat of a newb but I agree with this. This the EXACTLY what I was thinking when I designed my next cycle. I've been pondering and changing but I've finally decided on 11-oxo for 8 weeks followed by 4 weeks of P-Plex while pulsing trenadrol on weight training days. I tried to get feedback on this cycle from another forum, but haven't received any yet.

  16. methyl masterdrol v2
    furaz
    11oxo
    ^^^seems like it would make make a great cutting stack. i have read a lot of really good things about mmv2 recently in terms of cutting ph's.
    VO2 Max = 58.75mL/kg/min
    ~If Difficult takes a day, impossible takes a week~
    Learn Teach Lead

  17. Quote Originally Posted by krogtaar View Post
    usually cycles have the more anabolic compound second, so you are increasing anabolism throughout the cycle...you need more help at the end of the cycle because you have already made gains at the start.

    your way would leave you in a less anabolic state when you stop havoc/epi right? i think cutting/11 oxo then bulking/havoc then maintaining /pct would work better
    if i understand correctly the ERGO site implys that the 11-oxo acts as a BRIDGE, blocking CORT and helping keep muscle from cycle to QUOTE "help solidify gains" so id guess they are saying this would allow some level of recovery as well almost like a mini PCT. but then again im just plain guessing lol

  18. Quote Originally Posted by T H E O R E M View Post
    if i understand correctly the ERGO site implys that the 11-oxo acts as a BRIDGE, blocking CORT and helping keep muscle from cycle to QUOTE "help solidify gains" so id guess they are saying this would allow some level of recovery as well almost like a mini PCT. but then again im just plain guessing lol

    Yeah I saw that too on the ergo site which makes sense, but then again 11-oxo is so mild I wonder how much of your gains it would allow you to keep if you're running a harsher compound that WILL shut you down. From what I've researched, I couldn't imagine getting shutdown and then having another 4-8 weeks of a mild anabolic that will keep you shutdown but then again not strong enough to really ellicit any intense effects in the gym. I don't know if I'm making sense, but this is a good subject to discuss. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe someone could start another thread on that particular subject. Just a thought......

  19. Quote Originally Posted by purepower10 View Post
    Yeah I saw that too on the ergo site which makes sense, but then again 11-oxo is so mild I wonder how much of your gains it would allow you to keep if you're running a harsher compound that WILL shut you down. From what I've researched, I couldn't imagine getting shutdown and then having another 4-8 weeks of a mild anabolic that will keep you shutdown but then again not strong enough to really ellicit any intense effects in the gym. I don't know if I'm making sense, but this is a good subject to discuss. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe someone could start another thread on that particular subject. Just a thought......
    exactly...once you are already shut down from the initial stronger compound, the weaker one is not going to help you recover, it will keep you shut down.

    additionally, once you have already put on a lot of muscle with the stronger compound, diminishing returns set in and it takes more of the strong compound to get smaller gains...now switch to a weaker compound in addition to this and it's effect will be reduced.

    this argument all points to running the 11oxo/cut first, and when it is less effective at the end increase the steroid strength with havoc/epi and bulk

  20. Quote Originally Posted by krogtaar View Post
    exactly...once you are already shut down from the initial stronger compound, the weaker one is not going to help you recover, it will keep you shut down.

    additionally, once you have already put on a lot of muscle with the stronger compound, diminishing returns set in and it takes more of the strong compound to get smaller gains...now switch to a weaker compound in addition to this and it's effect will be reduced.

    this argument all points to running the 11oxo/cut first, and when it is less effective at the end increase the steroid strength with havoc/epi and bulk
    I agree. Not knocking anyone, but sometimes if you logically think about these things it starts to make sensee. I don't think we should be locked into the mindset that what manufacturers put on the bottle or the "suggested" stack/cycle is the way is "has" to be run. As far as the Erogo site, I saw on another forum where people were so worried that the suggested stack didn't equate to the EXACT amount of pills in the bottles. It was like they were gonna loose 10lbs by missing 2 days of a 4 week cycle. Most companies "probably" don't put much thought into "suggested" cycles. Each one with experience will have to determine whats best for their goals/bodyweight based on the purpose and dosage of the hormone. Experience is the best teacher.

  21. what about 11oxo for 6-8 weeks with a havoc pulse. this is something i have considered for myself

  22. Quote Originally Posted by rob561 View Post
    what about 11oxo for 6-8 weeks with a havoc pulse. this is something i have considered for myself
    It would be somewhat effective IMO. The positive of course would be the drying out effect, but the negative IMO(Haven't tried Havoc personally) would be that its not a fast acting hormone from what I've seen. The reason I'm doing this with the Trenadrol is because their are reports of how fast acting it is in terms of gym intensity and aggression. I've heard alot of users state that it kicks in VERY fast. And from what its "speculated" to be, it WILL kick in VERY fast. If it were me, personally I would run the 11-oxo solo weeks 1-4 and havoc/11-oxo stacked weeks 5-8. JMHO.

  23. I think we're getting off track here, this thread is about cutting.

    I understand your angle on using 11-oxo before Havoc in a bridge. You're saying to get any gains from it you need to run it first. Remember though, we're talking about a cut here so the person will be calorie deficient which will greatly reduce the chance of any significant gains on 11-oxo (minus noob gains). The point of 11-oxo here is to maintain muscle and strength.

    Now Havoc on the other hand is stronger and for many of us can add muscle and strength while cutting for a good recomp. However Havoc is recommended to be run for no more than 4 weeks so that's why the bridge is nice with 11-oxo to extend the time you can cut.

    So, let's break it down using the beneficial theories from this thread of using Havoc before or after 11-oxo:

    (Weeks 1-6) 11-oxo
    (Weeks 7-10) Havoc

    Benefits:

    -(THEORY) 11-oxo from a fresh start and not being shut down will allow for easier gains while on it.



    (Weeks 1-4) Havoc
    (Weeks 5-10) 11-oxo

    Benefits:

    -(THEORY) 11-oxo will maintain muscle and strength gains from Havoc solidifying them further (making them easier to keep through PCT and after)

    -(THEORY) 11-oxo will bring your body back slightly to a less shut down state making PCT easier on you

    -(FACT) If using Nolva for PCT your liver gets a break between Havoc and Nolva which are both liver toxic

    -(FACT) Since 11-oxo is run anywhere from 4-8 weeks, you can add or remove 1-2 weeks at the end as needed depending on where you are in relation to your bodyfat goals @ the end.



    Am I missing anything? IMO the choice is clear when talking about a cutting/recomp cycle.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Reseg View Post
    I think we're getting off track here, this thread is about cutting.

    I understand your angle on using 11-oxo before Havoc in a bridge. You're saying to get any gains from it you need to run it first. Remember though, we're talking about a cut here so the person will be calorie deficient which will greatly reduce the chance of any significant gains on 11-oxo (minus noob gains). The point of 11-oxo here is to maintain muscle and strength.

    Now Havoc on the other hand is stronger and for many of us can add muscle and strength while cutting for a good recomp. However Havoc is recommended to be run for no more than 4 weeks so that's why the bridge is nice with 11-oxo to extend the time you can cut.

    So, let's break it down using the beneficial theories from this thread of using Havoc before or after 11-oxo:

    (Weeks 1-6) 11-oxo
    (Weeks 7-10) Havoc

    Benefits:

    -(THEORY) 11-oxo from a fresh start and not being shut down will allow for easier gains while on it.



    (Weeks 1-4) Havoc
    (Weeks 5-10) 11-oxo

    Benefits:

    -(THEORY) 11-oxo will maintain muscle and strength gains from Havoc solidifying them further (making them easier to keep through PCT and after)

    -(THEORY) 11-oxo will bring your body back slightly to a less shut down state making PCT easier on you

    -(FACT) If using Nolva for PCT your liver gets a break between Havoc and Nolva which are both liver toxic

    -(FACT) Since 11-oxo is run anywhere from 4-8 weeks, you can add or remove 1-2 weeks at the end as needed depending on where you are in relation to your bodyfat goals @ the end.



    Am I missing anything? IMO the choice is clear when talking about a cutting/recomp cycle.
    I don't believe that if you're "shutdown" that adding more outside androgens will make you "less shutdown." That just doesn't make sense to me. Thats the whole reason your body stopped cranking out as much Test is because outside androgens were introduced and they accumulated so much in the body. Your body won't miraculously start making more Test just because the outside hormones you're putting in are different.

    Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.

    I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.

    Give liver a break? Huh? The standard is 4 week methyl, 4 week PCT never heard of anybody giving there liver a "break" before going into PCT. Anybody worried about liver shouldn't be using methyls or prescription PCT products.

    Plus I beleive the whole point of Patrick Arnold suggesting the 11-oxo "after" the new 1-AD is because its not supposed to shut you down hard. Its supposed to be mildly suppressive as reports have it. Guess we won't know until the Logs start coming in abundance.

    This is REALLY a great topic to be discussed and debated. Thanks for your input Reseg.

  25. someone should Contact PA, id like to hear his explanation on this theory as well

  26. Quote Originally Posted by purepower10 View Post
    I don't believe that if you're "shutdown" that adding more outside androgens will make you "less shutdown." That just doesn't make sense to me. Thats the whole reason your body stopped cranking out as much Test is because outside androgens were introduced and they accumulated so much in the body. Your body won't miraculously start making more Test just because the outside hormones you're putting in are different.

    Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.

    I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.

    Give liver a break? Huh? The standard is 4 week methyl, 4 week PCT never heard of anybody giving there liver a "break" before going into PCT. Anybody worried about liver shouldn't be using methyls or prescription PCT products.

    Plus I beleive the whole point of Patrick Arnold suggesting the 11-oxo "after" the new 1-AD is because its not supposed to shut you down hard. Its supposed to be mildly suppressive as reports have it. Guess we won't know until the Logs start coming in abundance.

    This is REALLY a great topic to be discussed and debated. Thanks for your input Reseg.
    its the same idea as tapering down your pct. first you start with a high anabolic/androgenic then to a lesser anabolic/androgenic compound. remember this is for a CUT. if you gain some lbm in at first with the havoc then great, but the main goal is keeping your muscle while shredding the fat!!
    P.S. great debate so far. lets keep the ideas rolling!

  27. Quote Originally Posted by rob561 View Post
    its the same idea as tapering down your pct. first you start with a high anabolic/androgenic then to a lesser anabolic/androgenic compound. remember this is for a CUT. if you gain some lbm in at first with the havoc then great, but the main goal is keeping your muscle while shredding the fat!!
    P.S. great debate so far. lets keep the ideas rolling!
    Well I beleive the modulating of the Aromatase enzyme and jump starting natural testosterone a two VERY different things. The purpose of PCT is to put your body in a favorable state for it to produce test, hence antagonizing aromatase and blocking ERs. You taper down SERMS and AIs for your body to slowly balance out. Think about if you did 3-4 weeks of Superdrol how hard "some" people are shut down and the sides they have, now you have to feel like crap for the next 4 weeks because of the LACK of natural test, because I don't think your body is going to start back producing Test just by tapering off with a milder compound. Once you cease the androgens you put your body in an extremely more favorable state for Test to start up again. Now what if you ran the 11-oxo all the 8 weeks with 3-4 weeks of superdrol on the end? You would receive the benefits of 11-oxo throughout the cycle and be able to immediately go into PCT to jump start natural test again. The faster you get Natural Test started again, I beleive the more gains you keep. Maybe that just me.

    Did you catch these points in my revious post?

    Plus, why would you use something EXTREMELY LESS androgenic/anabolic to try to keep gains, especially when T is approaching zero? And if cutting/recomp is the object, just like you said, one is more concerned w/ keeping muscle not making gains. So if you ran the stronger first you would "maintain," then run the weaker and "maintain less?" I read somewhere, don't remember where, that it takes about 2 weeks in calorie deficit before you start loosing muscle, so after that 2 week point why resort to something "weaker" especially when your body is in an EXTREME catabolic state due to T being close to zero.
    I say if you want cortisol control after a cycle to keep gains, run something like lean extreme that can be run in PCT while you're restoring your natural test. But if you're trying to cut/recomp with androgens and you're trying to run a cycle like we're discussing, to me the clear choice is to run the stronger last as the longer you diet the more catabolic you become.

    I agree this is a GREAT discussion!

  28. i see your point.
    i would run the 11oxo straight thru and pulse havoc thru out. you can run a natty test booster on cycle if you feel the need

  29. None of the above for cutting, diet & cardio.

    As for the 11-OXO, when it originally came out PA recommended not running it after any other hormones due to the anabolism/supression it can have. But the way the economy's going, I wouldn't be suprised if it was recommended while driving to save fuel.

  30. I'd run either h-drol or havoc stacked with furazadrol and shine the 11-oxo altogether probably.

    I kinda like the 11-oxo with a havoc pulse idea, however...
  

  
 

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