Havoc Cycle+Shedding Prevention(fingers crossed)

[LeeN]

Here is the plan for my Havoc cycle and PCT hopefully beginning sometime next week:

HAVOC @ 20/30/30/30-40(depending on how I feel)

ON CYCLE SUPPORT:
• AI’s Cycle Support
o 1 scoop morning & 1 scoop evening time for duration of cycle
• ON Whey
• Fish Oil
• ON’s bcaa @ 2 grams in the morning
• Basic multi-vitamin in the morning
• Animal Pak Multi on work-out days only
• Taurine as needed

*To hopefully minimize hair loss.....key word hopefully:
• Primordial Performance’s Toco-8
o 1 scoop in the morning (60 days)

• Nizoral 2% shampoo everyday
o Let sit in hair for 5-10 minutes before washing out

POST CYCLE THERAPY:
• Liquinolva @ 40/30/20/20

• AI’s Post Cycle Support
o 2 caps AM, 2 caps PM

• Designer Supplements Lean Xtreme beginning on Day 15 of PCT
o 2 caps AM, 2 caps PM

Of course I will maintain my daily staples(multi's) and wanted to mix some creatine into the mix but haven't decided yet.

What do ya'll think?

LeeN

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

That is a very well thought out cycle it is good to see that. I ran Havoc in September did not use what you are to aid the hair i did have shredding it occured in week 4 at 40mg it was not major but was noticable.

I will make sure if i run it again to go that route i have even considered propecia while on cycle but i applaude your cycle plan and the best of luck to you:cheers:

 

[SOLARUS]

nizoral is a good first step, and may be enough, but i will tell you my secret to making SURE that any itchies that i get on my scalp dont result in hairloss:

hydrocortisone gel

get it at Walgreen's or CVS. it soothes the follicle completely. you might think that it's no meant for this, but in reality it overwhelms any effect of an androgen at the scalp and calms the inflammation that is generally a dead giveaway that hairloss is approaching.

i only need it maybe once a day when the itch is most prevalent, but in gel form you can add it anytime without noticing....now, i have very short hair, so it may be more noticeable for someone with longer hair, i dunno.

if you want to be REALLY careful, use a spironolactone cream. check old threads here and at M&M for how to brew it.

 

[pistonpump]

im prone and never noticed or heard of people having problems with havoc.

 

[SOLARUS]

im prone and never noticed or heard of people having problems with havoc.

they do! generally, though, the cycles are short and there isnt a ton of androgenicity, so it isnt a huge deal....but there is certainly potential for it.

 

[pistonpump]

okay, i shouldnt have said never but epi is generally really mild.

 

[ReaperX]

Throw in 2g+ of Saw Palmetto.

 

[LeeN]

Throw in 2g+ of Saw Palmetto.

Even over the .6g's per day already included in the AI cycle support?

 

[Trauma1]

Well thought out cycle leen. I'd add a creatine of choice into your PCT though to help maintain gains. Other than that, nice job bud. Subbed!:cheers:

 

[Nightwanderer]

no shedding noticed so far with Epi.

 

[LeeN]

update* My bottle of havoc just arrived in the mail today.

I'd really like to begin cycle tomorrow morning, but since my SERM is not here yet, nor are any of my cycle support, probably won't be able to begin till wed. morning

....patiently waiting


LeeN

 

[WebDesigner]

update* My bottle of havoc just arrived in the mail today.

I'd really like to begin cycle tomorrow morning, but since my SERM is not here yet, nor are any of my cycle support, probably won't be able to begin till wed. morning

....patiently waiting


LeeN

Good luck with youre cycle, epi treated me awesome. Only side effect was hairloss, which still pisses me off to this day. But what can you do, you live and learn.

 

[LeeN]

Good luck with youre cycle, epi treated me awesome. Only side effect was hairloss, which still pisses me off to this day. But what can you do, you live and learn.

Might I ask for a clifs-notes on your cycle and around what week you began to notice the hair loss?

LeeN

 

[WebDesigner]

Might I ask for a clifs-notes on your cycle and around what week you began to notice the hair loss?

LeeN

I did my cycle last year.
Lasted 4 weeks.
10/20/20/30
Strength went up a lot and gained about 10 pounds.
Used most herbs and vitamins and shampoos recommended for hair.
Started shedding on the 3rd week and continued till the 4th.

Its been a while and the hair still hasn't recovered where I lost it. I still have a full head of hair but where I lost hair its much lighter than everywhere else and it is noticeable because family members have mentioned it to me and even my barber noticed.

I loved this compound tho if it was not for this I would have used it again but so far that has been my first and last cycle.

 

[LeeN]

I did my cycle last year.
Lasted 4 weeks.
10/20/20/30
Strength went up a lot and gained about 10 pounds.
Used most herbs and vitamins and shampoos recommended for hair.
Started shedding on the 3rd week and continued till the 4th.

Its been a while and the hair still hasn't recovered where I lost it. I still have a full head of hair but where I lost hair its much lighter than everywhere else and it is noticeable because family members have mentioned it to me and even my barber noticed.

I loved this compound tho if it was not for this I would have used it again but so far that has been my first and last cycle.

That is so not what I wanted to hear, but thanks

Hoping for the best....prepared for the Worst:cheers:

LeeN

 

[GuitarHero]

I did a cycle last summer of 10/20/30/40 and noticed some thinning of my hair in the 3rd and 4th weeks... I didn't use anything to combat the shedding, but I've noticed my hairline has filled back out for the most part since. Good luck, cycle looks good, Havoc is a GREAT time! :cheers:

 

[LeeN]

Well, today was my first day of my cycle dosed @ 20mg.

Wasn't expecting to feel any different throughout the day. It seems my body has accepted the epithio compound with open arms.

The thing that I did notice was I had a fuller "pump" throughout the workout. That could be because I started a new N.O. supp today as well though.


I did Back/Tri's tonight and actually went down in weight on my lat pull downs. I have found this just happens sometimes when I really pushed it the week previous, sucks, but it happens. Not related to havoc at all.

All in all a good workout w/out any cramping or anything.

Something was giving me a weird/sweet tast in my mouth throughout the workout even after washing my mouth out several times......CS ? Taurine?

LeeN

 

[LeeN]

Checkin back in.....

Late last night I got the urge to go work out (day 4 @ 20 mg) and had a pretty decent time.

After doing biceps, the pump that I had in my arms was almost too much. Once I got in the car It was hard to reach around and grab my seatbelt lol...never thought I would be complaining of this.

My scalp is itching pretty bad at times since yesterday. I am washing my hair everyday with Nizo 2% and 2 scoops of Toco-8 each day as well.

I haven't noticed any more shedding than usual, but I'm about to rip my scalp off!

Anyways, I am just being paranoid about losing my hair. Anyone have an itchy scalp with similar products?

LeeN

 

[WebDesigner]

Checkin back in.....

Late last night I got the urge to go work out (day 4 @ 20 mg) and had a pretty decent time.

After doing biceps, the pump that I had in my arms was almost too much. Once I got in the car It was hard to reach around and grab my seatbelt lol...never thought I would be complaining of this.

My scalp is itching pretty bad at times since yesterday. I am washing my hair everyday with Nizo 2% and 2 scoops of Toco-8 each day as well.

I haven't noticed any more shedding than usual, but I'm about to rip my scalp off!

Anyways, I am just being paranoid about losing my hair. Anyone have an itchy scalp with similar products?

LeeN

sounds like you got a crazy pump going. You should be harder and more vascular soon. The itchy scalp is somewhat normal with most steroids.

 

[LeeN]

sounds like you got a crazy pump going. You should be harder and more vascular soon. The itchy scalp is somewhat normal with most steroids.

Yes, definitely a crazy pump. From all that I've read about an itchy scalp on havoc, I can't tell if it denotes that that hair is about to fall out?

LeeN

 

[Graglor]

Yes, definitely a crazy pump. From all that I've read about an itchy scalp on havoc, I can't tell if it denotes that that hair is about to fall out?

LeeN

Subs. Keep up the nice log!!

 

[SOLARUS]

Yes, definitely a crazy pump. From all that I've read about an itchy scalp on havoc, I can't tell if it denotes that that hair is about to fall out?

LeeN

itchy scalp on steroids generally means 2 things: 1) you have the MPB gene, and b) whatever steroid you are using is aggravating the hair follicles. i personally dont take itchy scalp lightly - at all. does it mean the hair is going to fall out? not necessarily. cycle duration and strength will have a strong effect on that (ie. if you run them for many many weeks, the odds go up) based on the life cycle of the hair...that is, at present you are doing damage to the hair, but they can handle a good bit and may live through the steroid "assault". (my follicles have always recovered, but i took steps to aid them in the process)

now, there exists the possibility that it's just the drying action of the steroid that's giving you a dry scalp, but i personally find this remote.

 

[LeeN]

itchy scalp on steroids generally means 2 things: 1) you have the MPB gene, and b) whatever steroid you are using is aggravating the hair follicles. i personally dont take itchy scalp lightly - at all. does it mean the hair is going to fall out? not necessarily. cycle duration and strength will have a strong effect on that (ie. if you run them for many many weeks, the odds go up) based on the life cycle of the hair...that is, at present you are doing damage to the hair, but they can handle a good bit and may live through the steroid "assault". (my follicles have always recovered, but i took steps to aid them in the process)

now, there exists the possibility that it's just the drying action of the steroid that's giving you a dry scalp, but i personally find this remote.

I've only taken the aforementioned OTC steps for hair loss, but I am not taking this lightly. Thanks for the in depth look at this.

I think I will go ahead and go get some hydrocortisone like you had suggested earlier.

edit* I just ordered some 5% spiro cream to use as well. Hopefully that gets here quickly.

 

[dawaro]

The thing that I did notice was I had a fuller "pump" throughout the workout. That could be because I started a new N.O. supp today as well though.

You are really going to want to watch the N.O. use. Once my cycle ramped up to 30mg the back pumps became so intense it almost forced me to stop my workouts. The culprit turned out to be the creatine I was using had argine in it. After 3-5 off the creatine the pumps are still there but much more tolerable.

 

[LeeN]

You are really going to want to watch the N.O. use. Once my cycle ramped up to 30mg the back pumps became so intense it almost forced me to stop my workouts. The culprit turned out to be the creatine I was using had argine in it. After 3-5 off the creatine the pumps are still there but much more tolerable.

I will keep that in mind. I haven't experienced any back pumps whatsoever, but I don't ramp to 30mg until Wednesday and I am really excited to see how that treats me.

 

[n87]

Damn, just reading your guys' posts gives me itchy scalp. And I haven't event started Havoc yet.

 

[GuitarHero]

Damn, just reading your guys' posts gives me itchy scalp. And I haven't event started Havoc yet.

I wouldn't worry too much, I never had any itchiness while "on" nor have I heard of many other people getting it. So IDK how common it is...

I did have some shedding, but never really remembered getting itchy.

 

[LeeN]

I wouldn't worry too much, I never had any itchiness while "on" nor have I heard of many other people getting it. So IDK how common it is...

I did have some shedding, but never really remembered getting itchy.

I'd never heard of it too much either on Havoc, so I am pretty sure it is rare, but at least it hasn't fallen out yet.

 

[SOLARUS]

I wouldn't worry too much, I never had any itchiness while "on" nor have I heard of many other people getting it. So IDK how common it is...

I did have some shedding, but never really remembered getting itchy.

it's honestly a blessing....better to know the minute hairloss is approaching than to start seeing your hair thinning out one day.

think of how many white guys over 40 have receding hairlines - the potential for it is in most of us...but i too didnt notice anything until after i was 24 y/o or so.

 

[dawaro]

it's honestly a blessing....better to know the minute hairloss is approaching than to start seeing your hair thinning out one day.

think of how many white guys over 40 have receding hairlines - the potential for it is in most of us...but i too didnt notice anything until after i was 24 y/o or so.

For some it is a blessing. I havent experienced any shedding and I am on week 3 currently at 40mg. Although if I could get a little shedding action I wouldnt mind at all. Once it started receeding due to age I started shaving it anyway. Shedding would save me some time...

 

[LeeN]

For some it is a blessing. I havent experienced any shedding and I am on week 3 currently at 40mg. Although if I could get a little shedding action I wouldnt mind at all. Once it started receeding due to age I started shaving it anyway. Shedding would save me some time...

what has your dosage been like up to 40?

 

[dawaro]

what has your dosage been like up to 40?

Day 1 - 10mg
Day 2 - 20mg
Day 3-7 30mg
Day 8 - current - 40mg
I just started the 4th week and hoping the results start showing. So far the only weight gain (7lbs) I have seen is probably more a result of water weight from the increased carbs. Strength increases have been minimal but I have seen a little. My normal progression is to add 5lbs to the compound lifts each workout, so far I have accomplished this.

The sides have been very mild until this last week. The second week is when I started seeing them. Libido was the first to go. I also started getting major back pumps because I was using a creatine. While using the creatine 5g of taurine would not even touch the pumps. Now they are much more tolerable. At the end of the 3rd week the joint pain started and has continued to worsen but it is not to the point of shutting the workout down. No other sides have raised their head, no hair loss or acne issues, maybe some minor fatigue.

I am not sure how much you can take from my cycle because this is my 3rd cycle and I really dont think I respond very well PH's. I have tried the original Halodrol, a P-Plex/M-Drol bridge, and now the Epi cycle, all with minimal results. For those that are going to ask diet is fairly clean but not strict, 3500-4000 cal/day, 250-350g protein, and tons of water.
Currently I am doing a Bill Star 5x5 routine where I am squatting 3x a week and doing all compound lifts. Prior cycles were with the Max-OT routine. I have completely cut all cardio during the cycle as to not eat up the calories I am having to shove down. Unfortunate thing is I have a bad habit of buying in bulk so I got a stash of stuff that I am not sure the risk out weigh the gains for me personally.

 

[Graglor]

Day 1 - 10mg
Day 2 - 20mg
Day 3-7 30mg
Day 8 - current - 40mg
I just started the 4th week and hoping the results start showing. So far the only weight gain (7lbs) I have seen is probably more a result of water weight from the increased carbs. Strength increases have been minimal but I have seen a little. My normal progression is to add 5lbs to the compound lifts each workout, so far I have accomplished this.

The sides have been very mild until this last week. The second week is when I started seeing them. Libido was the first to go. I also started getting major back pumps because I was using a creatine. While using the creatine 5g of taurine would not even touch the pumps. Now they are much more tolerable. At the end of the 3rd week the joint pain started and has continued to worsen but it is not to the point of shutting the workout down. No other sides have raised their head, no hair loss or acne issues, maybe some minor fatigue.

I am not sure how much you can take from my cycle because this is my 3rd cycle and I really dont think I respond very well PH's. I have tried the original Halodrol, a P-Plex/M-Drol bridge, and now the Epi cycle, all with minimal results. For those that are going to ask diet is fairly clean but not strict, 3500-4000 cal/day, 250-350g protein, and tons of water.
Currently I am doing a Bill Star 5x5 routine where I am squatting 3x a week and doing all compound lifts. Prior cycles were with the Max-OT routine. I have completely cut all cardio during the cycle as to not eat up the calories I am having to shove down. Unfortunate thing is I have a bad habit of buying in bulk so I got a stash of stuff that I am not sure the risk out weigh the gains for me personally.

Stick with what you know and are comfortable with. Hope you start seeing the results your looking for soon.

 

[LeeN]

Day 1 - 10mg
Day 2 - 20mg
Day 3-7 30mg
Day 8 - current - 40mg
I just started the 4th week and hoping the results start showing. So far the only weight gain (7lbs) I have seen is probably more a result of water weight from the increased carbs. Strength increases have been minimal but I have seen a little. My normal progression is to add 5lbs to the compound lifts each workout, so far I have accomplished this.

The sides have been very mild until this last week. The second week is when I started seeing them. Libido was the first to go. I also started getting major back pumps because I was using a creatine. While using the creatine 5g of taurine would not even touch the pumps. Now they are much more tolerable. At the end of the 3rd week the joint pain started and has continued to worsen but it is not to the point of shutting the workout down. No other sides have raised their head, no hair loss or acne issues, maybe some minor fatigue.

I am not sure how much you can take from my cycle because this is my 3rd cycle and I really dont think I respond very well PH's. I have tried the original Halodrol, a P-Plex/M-Drol bridge, and now the Epi cycle, all with minimal results. For those that are going to ask diet is fairly clean but not strict, 3500-4000 cal/day, 250-350g protein, and tons of water.
Currently I am doing a Bill Star 5x5 routine where I am squatting 3x a week and doing all compound lifts. Prior cycles were with the Max-OT routine. I have completely cut all cardio during the cycle as to not eat up the calories I am having to shove down. Unfortunate thing is I have a bad habit of buying in bulk so I got a stash of stuff that I am not sure the risk out weigh the gains for me personally.

Well that is unfortunate to hear that you are not getting the desired results. Sounds like you were very prepared for this cycle as well.

As for myself, I have managed to gain about 7 lbs in my first week, but like you said, it could be water weight as well.

 

[dawaro]

Well that is unfortunate to hear that you are not getting the desired results. Sounds like you were very prepared for this cycle as well.

As for myself, I have managed to gain about 7 lbs in my first week, but like you said, it could be water weight as well.

If you have increased your caloric intake at the start of the cycle more than likely it is just water retention.
If I end up cycling again I think I am going to start increasing my calories at the same time I start my pre-load. The thought is you get the initial retention gain out of the way and you can much better determine what your actual gains are.
I think I am actually starting to put on some size now but I need to visit my starting measurements to be sure. I am hopeful. If nothing else I am increasing the intensity of my workouts. Dealing with the back pumps has helped me learn to put issues aside and work through it.

 

[LeeN]

If you have increased your caloric intake at the start of the cycle more than likely it is just water retention.
If I end up cycling again I think I am going to start increasing my calories at the same time I start my pre-load. The thought is you get the initial retention gain out of the way and you can much better determine what your actual gains are.
I think I am actually starting to put on some size now but I need to visit my starting measurements to be sure. I am hopeful. If nothing else I am increasing the intensity of my workouts. Dealing with the back pumps has helped me learn to put issues aside and work through it.

nice take on the situation. I am not looking forward to the back pumps whatsoever, but have the taurine on hand just incase. I won't start creatine till PCT also, so that will probably help as well.

This is only day 7 for me(first day @ 30mg) and my workouts have been great thus far. One could attribute this to the placebo affect, but I think that would have already worn off....hopefully

I am having a hard time spacing out my havoc dosing with the Cycle Support. I am trying to put as much time in between them as possible, but its a pain.

LeeN

 

[dawaro]

I am having a hard time spacing out my havoc dosing with the Cycle Support. I am trying to put as much time in between them as possible, but its a pain.

LeeN

Hmmm, I wonder if that could be my problem? I am not spacing the dosage out from my cycle support. I have been taking my A.M. and P.M. dosage within 30 minutes of my cycle support. Do you remember who advised to space it out? I thought I had done all my research but it looks like I missed something...

 

[pantera101]

. Something was giving me a weird/sweet tast in my mouth throughout the workout even after washing my mouth out several times......CS ? Taurine?

CS leaves a sweet after taste for me.I kind of like the taste of CS.

 

[LeeN]

Hmmm, I wonder if that could be my problem? I am not spacing the dosage out from my cycle support. I have been taking my A.M. and P.M. dosage within 30 minutes of my cycle support. Do you remember who advised to space it out? I thought I had done all my research but it looks like I missed something...

I think there is a bit of debate on how much time for maximum benefit. I am spacing it out as much as possible, but one of the gentlemen on that thread quotes Dr. D as having a 6 hr minimum time between. That would mean I would have to be waking up in the middle of the night in order to take a scoop of Cycle Support.lol

Trauma1(RPN rep) said that a few hours would be fine.

here is the thread:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/90845-take-gander-my.html#post1296613

 

[pantera101]

I think there is a bit of debate on how much time for maximum benefit. I am spacing it out as much as possible, but one of the gentlemen on that thread quotes Dr. D as having a 6 hr minimum time between. That would mean I would have to be waking up in the middle of the night in order to take a scoop of Cycle Support.lol

Trauma1(RPN rep) said that a few hours would be fine.

here is the thread:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/90845-take-gander-my.html#post1296613

So you take like half a scoop at a time?

 

[LeeN]

So you take like half a scoop at a time?

No. I still take the whole scoop, but space it out as much possible. This is my first day @ 3 doses per day, so I haven't quite figured my PM scoop out yet.lol

 

[dawaro]

No. I still take the whole scoop, but space it out as much possible. This is my first day @ 3 doses per day, so I haven't quite figured my PM scoop out yet.lol

I feel your pain. I am thinking right now how I can space it out and I am coming up empty. The combination of three doses and a mid-day workout really muck up the schedule.
This is what I am thinking:
6am - Epi, Flax/Fish Oil
8am - CS, MV
Noon (workout) - Epi, Flax/Fish oil
8pm - Epi, Flax/Fish Oil
10pm - CS, MV
Bad thing is that still leaves and 10 hour window between the night/morning dose.

 

[pantera101]

So you're saying trying to space out doses of CS and havoc from eachother?

 

[dawaro]

CS leaves a sweet after taste for me.I kind of like the taste of CS.

For me that is how I know I am at the end of a cycle. Once I get to where I dont mind the taste of CS I know I have been on long enough...

 

[dawaro]

So you're saying trying to space out doses of CS and havoc from eachother?

correct

 

[LeeN]

I feel your pain. I am thinking right now how I can space it out and I am coming up empty. The combination of three doses and a mid-day workout really muck up the schedule.
This is what I am thinking:
6am - Epi, Flax/Fish Oil
8am - CS, MV
Noon (workout) - Epi, Flax/Fish oil
8pm - Epi, Flax/Fish Oil
10pm - CS, MV
Bad thing is that still leaves and 10 hour window between the night/morning dose.

that seems pretty reasonable. You are @ 40 mg right? so when do you ingest your biggest dose?

I woke up extra early this morning and turned over and popped my Havoc w/ a gut health and passed back out. I spent the night at my gf's house, so those are the only things that I had with me.

I am thinking when I hit 40, I will just go back to 20mg in the AM and 20mg in the evening. just a thought though

So you're saying trying to space out doses of CS and havoc from eachother?

yes, I 2nd that

 

[pantera101]

correct

Why is this?becuse of the liver cleansing?I take cycle support when I get back from the gym on off days,or after the wo when i'm working.I do this cause of the liver cleansing.I have heard people say to not take abnything for the liver untill you're done with cycle cause a healthier liver is a better functioning liver.One even said milk thistle lowers androgens.

I liked CS from the first serving.I was prepared for it to taste like crap.

 

[LeeN]

Why is this?becuse of the liver cleansing?I take cycle support when I get back from the gym on off days,or after the wo when i'm working.I do this cause of the liver cleansing.I have heard people say to not take abnything for the liver untill you're done with cycle cause a healthier liver is a better functioning liver.One even said milk thistle lowers androgens.

I liked CS from the first serving.I was prepared for it to taste like crap.

this is from that linked thread a few posts ago

Dr.D recommends 6hrs and others recommend 4hrs. The reason being that by this time your methylated oral has passed the liver and will not be compromised by the milk thistle. I have been taking NAC , saw palmentto, hawthorn berry & SAMe on cycle and saved my Cycle Support for PCT. Do what ya like but I would at least wait 4hrs. If I was taking superdrol I would be willing to negate some of the gains for protection.

 

[pantera101]

Thanks man.I wonder how much of a difference it actually makes?I'm on day 8 of m-drol and up 6lbs while taking CS.M-drol is 1/2 hr before wo.I guess CS is 1.5-3 hrs after dose.

 

[LeeN]

Thanks man.I wonder how much of a difference it actually makes?I'm on day 8 of m-drol and up 6lbs while taking CS.M-drol is 1/2 hr before wo.I guess CS is 1.5-3 hrs after dose.

who knows how much of a difference this will actually make, but I am willing to try these things in order to take full advantage of my first real cycle.

I want my cherry popped in the nicest way possible, not gang raped prison-style.:icon_lol: