Estrogen, stupid stupid stupid!

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    Estrogen, stupid stupid stupid!


    I used to be an advocate of estrogen but after reading that post that wojo posted in the sticky in this forum ive come to the conlusion myself that estrogen is for the most part useless ESPECIALLY if stacked with something as powerful as trenabol.

    I definitely don't seem to notice a differrence in KEEPABLE gains in after a FEW WEEKS when i limit estrogen or stop it together when using with 1-test.


    What is everyone's opinion???

    I think if there is any advantage its veryminor and not worth the blood pressure, the fat bloat in the face effect and USUALLY extra fat gain.

    Even when using fina big cat says that there really isn't a need to stack estrogen and that adding estrogen could cause progestorone gyno problems. Also fina promotes fat loss ONLY when its not competing with estrogen. As far as im concerned the only time im gonna add some estrogen to the list is when im on a 1-test cycle where it is definitely needed or else youll sleep 24/7!

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    I hate estrogen and hate progesterone even more. I got prog. induced gyno 6 yrs. ago from taking 19-nor-dione. ( I did not know any better back then )

    If someone I knew wanted to take Tren, I would recomend taking Nolvadex, Winstrol, and Bromocriptine with it.

    The belief that estrogen is necessary on a cycle is controversial. I say forget estrogen, if it does help in lean mass gains, it's effects are very minimal.
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    hmmm i think 1-test can cause progesterone gyno like fina. I could be wrong but users are reporting someting like gyno sometimes on high doses of it and i sort of think that too.


    Never had problems even with estrogen from 4-AD so im not gonna just probably take fina straight and hope for the best.

    I will pick up some vitex though for postcycle or just in case during cycle cause i hear that can be effective for progesterone gyno. Bromo is the other one i heard. Nolvadex and winny won't directly help with progesterone but of course estrogen which will help indirectly with the progesterone.
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    Here we go again....


    TREN DOES NOT CONVERT TO ESTROGEN
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    Who said it did??

    It could cause progesterone gyno by itself and the estrogen from adding TESTOSTERONE could make the possibility higher. Big cat in his article explains that the fat burning properties are gone when estrogen is in the cycle.
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    My post was for DevilSmack cause he said he would have someone wake winny with tren...there is no facts that winny helps with any kinda gyno...and nolv dosnt help with pro gyno.
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    i never knew nol doesnt help with pro gyno..learn something new today..very kool
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    Thats why everyone should have vitex or bromo on hand for during and more importantly post cycle because some people have gotten or come close to progesterone gyno just from fina alone.

    I thought reducing estrogen would help reduce thechances of progesterone gyno, but i guess not.

    How effective is vitex during cycle in stopping progesterone gyno???

    I know some people used it in high doses post cycle and its cleared it up. Or so one guy in an article from t-mag said.
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    Originally posted by SHOT
    My post was for DevilSmack cause he said he would have someone wake winny with tren...there is no facts that winny helps with any kinda gyno...and nolv dosnt help with pro gyno.
    The specificity of Winny however, lies in how it counteracts estrogenic side-effects such as gyno and excess water retention. First of all it's a 5-alpha reduced substrate. 5-alpha reduction breaks the double bond between positions 4 and 5, which is required for conversion to estrogen via aromatase, the primary enzyme for the manufacture of estrogen in males. Because some of these compounds nonetheless show some affinity for aromatase they may have some use in blocking estrogen from other steroids they are stacked with. Wether or not Winny acts in this way is not entirely sure. What has been a popular point of discussion with stanozolol is its suggested anti-progestagenic effects. The theory goes that Winny can bind and compete for a position at the progesterone receptor much like Clomid of Nolvadex would at the estrogen receptor, thereby inhibiting progestagenic effects. Now, progesterone can aggravate estrogenic side-effects by agonizing estrogen and it does play a role in gyno. -Big Cat's steriod files from BB.com
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    Originally posted by SHOT
    My post was for DevilSmack cause he said he would have someone wake winny with tren...there is no facts that winny helps with any kinda gyno...and nolv dosnt help with pro gyno.
    It has also been noted that the steroid stanozolol (Winstrol) may provide relief as it too binds to the progesterone receptor but remains unaltered by it. How strong of a competitor it is in such a case and what sort of doses would be needed are as much your guess as they are mine, so this may be non-issue. But it does bode well for the stacking of nandrolone with stanozolol in that you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. -Big Cat's steroid files from BB.com
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    Trenbolone is a nandrolone derivitive. There is evidence that 19-nor based androgens bind and act at the progesterone receptor.

    Competitive progesterone antagonists: receptor binding and biological activity of testosterone and 19-nortestosterone derivatives. Reel JR, Humphrey RR, Shih Yh, Windsor Bl, Sakowski R, Creger Pl, Edgren RA. Fertil Steril 1979 May; 31 (5):552-61

    Now some people argue that if Trenbolone has any progestenic effects that they are very weak. See this abstract: Environ Qual Saf Suppl 1976;(5):253-64 Related Articles, Books Pharmacological and endocrinological studies on anabolic agents.

    Take it or leave it. I have merit in saying that you probably should take stanozolol with Tren. You learn something new everyday, Shot.
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    does an aromatize inhibitor help with p-gyno?
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    Originally posted by pogue
    does an aromatize inhibitor help with p-gyno?
    Not directly. An aromatase inhibitor by lowering estrogen would reduce the risk of geting gyno because usually progesterone by it's self (if not elevated too high) will not cause gyno. It's the combo of progesterone and estrogen where you run into trouble. Although in sensitive people sometimes nandrolone will cause gyno even when taken with Arimidex.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    Thats why everyone should have vitex or bromo on hand for during and more importantly post cycle because some people have gotten or come close to progesterone gyno just from fina alone.

    I thought reducing estrogen would help reduce thechances of progesterone gyno, but i guess not.

    How effective is vitex during cycle in stopping progesterone gyno???

    I know some people used it in high doses post cycle and its cleared it up. Or so one guy in an article from t-mag said.
    From what I understand, Vitex only lowers prolactin levels and some parts of the Vitex plant can act as progestins. I had always heard that Vitex can raise progesterone, but did not know why, when a guy on Meso pointed this out to me about the plant progestins.

    With Bromo, you are go to go, it's the best prolactin inhibitor. For now I'll leave the vitex alone.
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    how does the price of bromo compare to vitex???? Ive never seen it sold can't find it at 1fast or netrition.com. Where is it sold cheap?
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    Vitex is an OTC supplement. Bromocriptine is a drug. I sent you a PM.
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    Originally posted by SHOT
    Here we go again....


    TREN DOES NOT CONVERT TO ESTROGEN
    No one said that tren converts or aromatises to estrogen. It's a scientific fact that it can not because of trenbolone's structure, the c9-10 bond inhibits aromatization. The problem w/ tren and gyno maybe progesterone or prolactin related. That's why I suggested the Winstrol and Bromo. Are you happy now?

    I'm not busting you balls by the way, I just think you should read these posts more carfully.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    hmmm i think 1-test can cause progesterone gyno like fina. I could be wrong but users are reporting someting like gyno sometimes on high doses of it and i sort of think that too.


    Never had problems even with estrogen from 4-AD so im not gonna just probably take fina straight and hope for the best.

    I will pick up some vitex though for postcycle or just in case during cycle cause i hear that can be effective for progesterone gyno. Bromo is the other one i heard. Nolvadex and winny won't directly help with progesterone but of course estrogen which will help indirectly with the progesterone.
    Androst-1-ene is a DHT derivitive, it can't aromatise to estrogen and it has no known effect on progesterone. If it's not a 19-nor based androgen, or have the 2-hydroxymethylene group as seen with Oxymetholone (Anadrol-50) then I would not be concerned with prog.
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    Having done it both ways...reguarding antiestrogens on cycle, I will tell you this:

    Tren/test/femura: Nice lean gains, no bloat, BP went thru the friggin roof 190/95 and I had half a dozen nagging pulls, strains and irritations by halfway thru the cycel, and my joints creaked just from walking.

    test/tren: Bloat, some fair fat gains (20% of gains perhaps), unless a lot of it is bloat, I will know better post cycle) Strength, much higher and not a single nagging injury (hurt my back, that doesnt count) Blood pressure is slightly higher, but no wheres close to what it was with the anti-E involved. I feel better on this cycle.

    So, it is a catch-22 in my opinion, but I will deal with the bloat.
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    How could you blood pressure be higher with a anti-E????

    I thought it helped with blood pressure as that is one of my main concerns with estrogen.

    I would rather trade in a fat bloaty face and extra fat gains for tren's unique fat burning properties that DO NOT exist with estrogen present. I also thought the blood pressure would be lesss without estrogen too since no water retention.
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    Ummm bro..estrogen moderates your cholesterol levels. high cholesterol leads to high blood pressure.

    I take my PB every other day while on cycle, just telling you my experience. It was so high, I was getting lightheaded on occasion...it wasnt good.
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    Originally posted by wardog
    Ummm bro..estrogen moderates your cholesterol levels. high cholesterol leads to high blood pressure.

    i wholeheartedly concur.

    In my opinion, added water retention is like a light switch for muscle growth. Estrogen helps with this.

    Also, with estrogen levels very low an entire cycle, it is harder for you to get your natural testosterone and LH levels back up with either clomid or nolvadex alone because they work on a negative feedback mechanism with estrogen. You would have to add in HCG.
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    In my opinion, added water retention is like a light switch for muscle growth. Estrogen helps with this.
    I wholeheartedly DISAGREE


    ESTROGEN reduces fat burning properties of androgens(especially oneslike tren)

    They also lower SBHG levels, a very serious offense.


    The benefits that estrogen does for muscle gain do not outweight the above con's and in my opinion no one will tell you estrogen made ANY difference in overal quality keepable lbm gains once the cycle was over with.

    And recovery WILL be harder post cycle because without estrogen there is no need reallyfor much of a anti-estrogen post-cycle and even if there is 6-OXO at moderate dosages is the max you would need.
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    Originally posted by wardog
    Ummm bro..estrogen moderates your cholesterol levels. high cholesterol leads to high blood pressure.

    I take my PB every other day while on cycle, just telling you my experience. It was so high, I was getting lightheaded on occasion...it wasnt good.
    Anti-aromatase drugs are rough on the 'ol joints.

    I throw in some tamoxifen, mostly for gyno prevention, but It might help you w/ cholesterol issues.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad


    I wholeheartedly DISAGREE


    how can you disagree that estrogen causes water retention?

    Originally posted by pjorstad


    And recovery WILL be harder post cycle



    ]

    this is what i said
    [
    because without estrogen there is no need reallyfor much of a anti-estrogen post-cycle and even if there is 6-OXO at moderate dosages is the max you would need.
    you need something post cycle because natural test will be down longer if you dont. HCG will stimulate the estrogen rebound, and nolva will work by the negative feedback mechanism signalling the hypothalamus to produce more LH, when it lowers estrogen.
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    i was disagreeing with you on saying it was the light switch for muscle growth.



    According to big cat after a finaonly cycle anti-estrogens reallyaren't needed??

    I don't really agree with that fully but i do know that the more estrogen you had during the cycle means more cleaning up afterwards.
  

  
 

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