POLL - How many got gyno from Superdrol/clones?

[Ziquor]

I seen some really old survey's similar to this but they were around when Super was new over 2-3 years ago. Post specific comments too.

 

[AtomSmasher]

Ive used p plex and m drol with good results. Super lethargic on m drol, but no gyno from either. my post cycle therapy consisted of clomid and nolva along with t boosters and an AI about three weeks into it.

 

[EasyEJL]

this will be entertaining to watch

 

[pantera101]

Do you smoke pot Ziquor?You are very paranoid.If it gets too bad send your ph's to me.

 

[Ziquor]

Do you smoke pot Ziquor?You are very paranoid.If it gets too bad send your ph's to me.

Nah, just a couple times when i was younger but it made me too tired & hungry. Sadly the people who weren't paranoid about this are the ones that ended up with it. I over-research everthing, espeically if it comes to health. I just don't feel it could be possible for the gyno to come from prolactic considering the gyno usually comes 3 months later. Prolactin is an issue that arises while on, not months later after off.

 

[EasyEJL]

its definitely difficult to tell what could have caused it. thats the problem with substances with no clinical studies.

 

[Ziquor]

its definitely difficult to tell what could have caused it. thats the problem with substances with no clinical studies.

Yes very true. One this that's interesting too is I don't think I seen anyone who pulsed Super suffer any gyno symptoms.

 

[EasyEJL]

truthfully over-PCTing could cause it too. Too high of a serm/ai dose could cause a later bounceback

 

[pantera101]

Nah, just a couple times when i was younger but it made me too tired & hungry. Sadly the people who weren't paranoid about this are the ones that ended up with it. I over-research everthing, espeically if it comes to health. I just don't feel it could be possible for the gyno to come from prolactic considering the gyno usually comes 3 months later. Prolactin is an issue that arises while on, not months later after off.

I smoked all day every day from 13-20.Good timesI understand being scared about gyno of all things.The only reason im not freakin is because i have used mass tabs 6oxo post cycle therapy and superdrol/pheraplex combo with advanced post cycle therapy with no signs/symptoms of gyno.Now with my 3 m-drol i will use nolva and do as bassgod says,he pm'd me so im saving it,but(for others)it's in ?superdrol delayed gyno.I know i can look this up and am pretty sure,but ai's are like 6oxo and novadex xt right?

 

[Ziquor]

I smoked all day every day from 13-20.Good timesI understand being scared about gyno of all things.The only reason im not freakin is because i have used mass tabs 6oxo post cycle therapy and superdrol/pheraplex combo with advanced post cycle therapy with no signs/symptoms of gyno.Now with my 3 m-drol i will use nolva and do as bassgod says,he pm'd me so im saving it,but(for others)it's in ?superdrol delayed gyno.I know i can look this up and am pretty sure,but ai's are like 6oxo and novadex xt right?

Correct. I considered if/when I run Super to run a low dose AI off & on after the cycle's over to help avoid any rebound estrogen. I heard that 6-oxo is decent, ATD is stronger, possibly too strong as having some estrogen is good, and I've heard excellent things about formestane.

 

[Daminals]

Hey man whatup. I'm runnin it now like we talked bout before. I'm amost done wit my cycle I'm in day 19. Everythings fine so far. I just went up to 30mg/day. I'm not runnin anythin else except liv52 & cycle support. Ill vote a couple months after my cycle if dis polls still up since most guys get gyno way after da cycle. I gained 12lbs so far, lethargys real bad along wit back pumps awful even with taurine.

 

[T H E O R E M]

I think users reporting that they got gyno from their cycle should post their "post cycle therapy" and What symptoms they noticed during that indicated to them they got gyno etc, this should help some of us to differentiate from the possibility of "REAL" gyno, and the "PARANOID" gyno thats becoming all to common on the boards.

 

[Ziquor]

I think users reporting that they got gyno from their cycle should post their "post cycle therapy" and What symptoms they noticed during that indicated to them they got gyno etc, this should help some of us to differentiate from the possibility of "REAL" gyno, and the "PARANOID" gyno thats becoming all to common on the boards.

Good point I agree.

 

[Schism]

Ziq, check this out just run the super for like 8 weeks, get fcukin HHUUUUGGGGEEE!!! Then go in and get a bunch of blood transfusions instead of fcukin with pct!
Seriuosly though that's why I decided to just pulse that sh!t, because I haven't seen anyone b!tchin about gyno from da pulse.:thumbsup:

 

[Ziquor]

Ziq, check this out just run the super for like 8 weeks, get fcukin HHUUUUGGGGEEE!!! Then go in and get a bunch of blood transfusions instead of fcukin with post cycle therapy!
Seriuosly though that's why I decided to just pulse that sh!t, because I haven't seen anyone b!tchin about gyno from da pulse.:thumbsup:

Hmmm... You gotta point. I'll just run 120mg/day for 2 years and then for PCT I'll get a liver transplant plus all my blood sucked out as new fresh blood from a healthy 12 year old boy gets pumped into my body.

 

[silverSurfer]

I used the original superdrol a few years ago about 3 times, each with nolva for PCT, and did not get gyno.

 

[Ziquor]

I used the original superdrol a few years ago about 3 times, each with nolva for post cycle therapy, and did not get gyno.

3 times and no gyno - that's awesome, thanks for the post.

 

[Schism]

Hmmm... You gotta point. I'll just run 120mg/day for 2 years and then for post cycle therapy I'll get a liver transplant plus all my blood sucked out as new fresh blood from a healthy 12 year old boy gets pumped into my body.

Exactly, your doseage seems a little high though. Plus I would try to find a 15 year old boy as his test will be higher than a grown man on da roids.
Seriuosly though anyone out there get da gyno from a pulse??? :stick:

 

[EasyEJL]

its possible to yes. some people think its easier on a pulse, as your blood levels of all hormones bounce around more.

 

[Schism]

D@mn it Easy, that doesn't help lol... Nothin but love for ya bro!!
Sure anythings possible but is it happening? The blood levels fluctuating makes since, as there's really no way around that if your pulsing. I was under the impression that the shut down would be minimal thus resulting in less of a possibility for da gyno later, especially if it's from rebound?

 

[EasyEJL]

well.....

There are plenty of guys with high estrogen who dont get gyno. So gyno is individual. IMO a fluctuation in estrogen is more likely the cause of it than necessarily the amount of it. Its how your body reacts to the swing that makes the difference.

Its still probably lower odds with most non aromatizing compounds on a pulse vs regular cycle. The superdrol delayed gyno is the harder to explain one. 4 months down the road, you shouldn't be fluctuating still.

 

[T H E O R E M]

"Dr.p" did an old post about this a while, probability 1%?

yet 40-50% are reporting gyno lol...




Here I present the collected and summarized empirical data and the "best-of" from the great discussions we have had on that topic.

ENJOY!



I.) THE DATA
----------------------------
----------------------------

PLease first view the attached graph. It's the graphical summary of 6 members who kindly posted their EXACT superdrol-cycle as well as their post cycle therapy-protocol.
(Damn, how can I put this image to be visible inside the thread? Someone help me please)

-All 6 subjects are our forum members (phantom21; pumpedgator; Epihall; D-Termine; SnakeVette80; Jay_D).
-In the graph you see how long they took superdrol (yellow bars), how much and how long they took RXT (blue), Nolva (red) or 6-OXO (green). On the right side you see the averaged number of weeks that passed after the end of post cycle therapy after that each subject reported onset of gyno (if someone said: "5-6 weeks", then I wrote: 5.5 weeks as the average).

There are additionally 5 forum members from the anabolicminds forum (baby_a; Rastar; Mass_69; Jared; reef) who also reported delayed gyno after SD and PCT. Unfortunately they haven't provided enough information in order to incorporate their data into my graphical analysis.
The first of those did a PCT with RXT only and reported gyno "several weeks" after PCT;
Nr.2 did also a RXT-standalone PCT and reported gyno "several months later".
Nr.3 got gyno 4 months after a SD-cycle; however he interponed a "MOHN / 4-AD-cycle" before he did PCT (RXT only).
Nr.4 reported onset of gyno "immediately" after finishing PCT with RXT and "LX" (LeanExtreme).
Finally, Nr.5 (reef) reported the probably most intriguing thing I have read so far: He did 2 SD-cycles: After the first he did an "old-school" Nolva-only PCT without any problems. Some time later he did his 2nd SD-cycle. This time he took RXT only for PCT because he ran out of Nolva. Guess what? The guy got gyno 4 weeks after he finished his RXT-PCT.


Here I will shortly summarize the theories that have been proposed so far about the origin and the mechanisms of delayed gyno after SD by several members from this or the anabolicminds forum. There were too MANY members, to mention them all; but it was a pleasure to see guys like BigCat, w-llewellyn and Dr.D (that's actually NOT me, this is one of the masterminds from designer supplements, who is posting at AM) chiming in and commenting on the issue.


II.THE THEORIES AND ARGUMENTS
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------


1.) Delayed Gyno is some direct pro-estrogenic effect from SD.
--------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: This has been discarded because a) SD is supposed to aromatize very weakly. If it would have some "secret" pro-estrogenic action, its very short half-life (estimated 8 h) would prevent any DELAYED action.


2.) Some steroids, among them SD are supposed to cause a rebound of testosteron production after several weeks / months of recovery after a cycle. Some guys called this the "SD-echo". The overshooting test is responsible for consecutive convcersion to estrogen via aromatase and finally leads to gyno.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: There is probably something like a "testosteron-echo". Several people have reported such observations, but no one of them got actually gyno! The increased testosteron protects you from getting gyno even if your estrogen is elevated by providing a beneficial test-to estrogen-ratio.



3.) There is no "delayed gyno from SD" phenomenon at all. From thousends of people who did a SD-cycle there are relatively few who reported this issue. Some people are genetically prone to get gyno even after slight hormonal imbalances. Such imbalances can be caused by ANY steroid and are not specific for SD or the PCT. After all, there might be a "gyno-hysteria", with paple falsely reporting "gyno" even when they feel their nipples itch a bit, which seems to occur quite often when taking steroids.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Well that argument is hard to beat, because we don't have the numbers. I have gathered 11 people who reported delayed gyno just by looking on two forums. It can be assumed that there a quite a few more, whom we don't know because they just never come to these forums. A realistical estimation would be to say: We have appr. 10 reported gyno-cases on 1000 people who used SD (that would be a rate of <1%). Well in medicine a rate of 1% is HIGH!!! Huge pharmaceutical companies get in HUGE trouble even if 10 people from 1 million get some serious adverse effects from a drug(remember the Lipobay scandal or the COX-2 scandal?). So, an adverse effect that is in the range of 1% is not a seldom or rare effect.
Even if half of the people who reported gyno don't have real gyno, there are more than enough cases to make this a considerable ISSUE!


4. Improperly off-tapered PCT led to estrogen rebound, that causes the gyno after some time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Well, as we see in the graph, we have virtually all combinations of down-tapering, up-tapering, constant dosing etc. So even if theoretically correct, proper downtapering during PCT seems to not protect entirely against delayed gyno.


5.) The use of Aromatase-Inhibitors after a steroid-cycle is the key for delayed gyno. It has been hypothesized that AIs lead to a huge up-regulation either of estrogen-receptors or the aromatase-enzyme, or both. When testosterone is slowly recovering after a cycle and has not yet reached full capacity-levels, the explosively ramping up of estrogen-production (aromatse upped) will lead to massive estrogenic action at peripheral tissues (additionally by highly sensitized tissue-receptors). This leads to a SIGNIFICANT dysbalance of the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio wich is the main signal for breast tissue to grow. At that moment gyno-development starts, and after some some weeks you can not only feel it but also see it!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: This is my favoured theory so far. It is very logical in itself. However, we don't have experimental evidence for that, so it still remains a theory. What speaks dor this teory is that litterally ALL cases I found on BB.com as well as on AM-forum did their PCT with an AI alone or in combination with Nolva. Their might be one single exception to this (there is a guy called "Dmitry" or alike whose posts I didn't entirelly understood. He seems to have used only Nolva for PCT, but that is not clear). Even if there would be one case, there are 11 cases that stands against. So, possibly AIs are not the ENTIRE explanation but they SEEM to be the major RISK-FACTOR to develop delayed gyno after SD.
However, the overall risk to get delayed gyno after superdrol is about 1%. From this 1% 0.9% can - possibly-be accounted for by AIs.

6. (UPDATE) The combination of a STRONG shutdown of testosteron-production (induced by a STRONG androgenic substance) with a STRONG estrogenic hypersensitation (induced by an AI) seems to be crucial in order to push the ratio of testosteron-to-estrogen-(receptor-action) beyond a critical threshold for developing gyno.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: Several forum members have pointed to the observation that apparently all delayed-gyno cases have been reported from users who had an AI during PCT + SD during ON cycle. To date no reports have appeard on delayd gyno after other designer steroids like Pheraplex (PP) or one of the E...Max derivates. This is in fact an intriguing point. It has been suggested that SD may have stronger androgenic side effects then PP /Emax. Moreover, there was a sidenote from BigCat that delayed gyno has also been occasionally observed in people who were on "traditional" steroids (e.g. testosteron), which also have STRONG androgenic action. Taken together, The synergistical interplay of these said factors can be summed up as follows:
the stronger the estrogenic hyperactivity (induced by AI) AND the stronger the testosteron-hypoactivity is, the higher is the risk to develop delayed gyno. (It's again the RATIO)
This is in fact almost the same as was proposed in theory Nr.5, with the exception that the amount of testosteron-shutdown is more appreciated now.

So, my precluding thoughts are:
If you plan to do a cycly with a steroid that has strong androgenic action and if you are ANXIOUS to get gyno or if you ever had (pubertal) gyno or if you have a highly sensitized estrogenic system by one or more previous steroid cycles, than you should at least THINK about using or not using AIs for your PCT because Ais seems to add to the risk to get gyno.

EDIT: Bloute just remembered me to mention the DHEA-problem:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The intake of DHEA to support PCT is a standard recommendation in the Superdol and PCT threads. However, BifCat pointed to the fact that during PCT, the intake of an additional steroid or pro-steroid might slow down the recovery of the testosterone-production. If that holds true, than the addition of DHEA will even further impair the testosteron-to-estrogen-ratio during and after PCT and by that further increase the risk to get delayed gyno. That was a very good pont. Unfortunately we don't have enough data. I know that 2 of the 11 subjects I mentioned above did take DHEA. Perhaps these guys could post that information here.


Very best regards

David

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, but of that 40-50% most of them are "my nipples were itchy"

 

[Schism]

Just what I've been saying all along, which is: FCUK AI"s IN PCT!! That is a good post theorem, however it is very incomplete. I myself as well as ziquor have seen a lot of loggs were people got gyno using a straight nolva pct. So it's still a mystery for me.

 

[Schism]

yeah, but of that 40-50% most of them are "my nipples were itchy"

You are right as usual Easy, as this is often the case in many users complaints, and then subsides either after the ph is discontinued or after pct.

 

[T H E O R E M]

yeah, but of that 40-50% most of them are "my nipples were itchy"

its very funny, but the level of misinformation from general forum gyno reports/anecdotal feedback is out of hand

 

[EasyEJL]

I think even 1% is high as an estimate

 

[Ziquor]

Theo when was this study done? Where do you get the 1% probability numbers? I must have missed them. Most people I know who got gyno aren't fans of AI's. There's another Poll from 2005 in which over 100 people voted on & the results are basically the same as this one - about 30% reported gyno from Super. I think it's safe to say nobody can accurately answer as to why this is occurring which is why I still push the issue. I just wanna know!!!

 

[T H E O R E M]

this was a post done by DR.P, he posts on other forums as well but can be found on bb.com too.

this was from a couple years ago.

But if you add the variables from each side, voters that got gyno, and those who already had it. IE: depending if they really had it before without knowing etc. It could be less than 30% on both polls since its an estimation by the users knowledge to their own condition.

i dont know if superdrol is worth the bother anymore lol..

 

[Ziquor]

Due to my obsessive compulsive nature I can't forget about something unless I fully grasp & understand it, or at least partially understand. I research a lot, sometimes over-research, and when I can't find the answers it drives me crazy. It's been really bothering me as to why so many people contracted delayed gyno after Super more so than any other PH. I've been doing a hell of a lot of reading and research the past few days and to Theorem's posting above have found tons of great info which leads me to a few theories. Masteron/Methylmasteron (Super) has this in its chemical profile:

"As well as it's anabolic/androgenic steroid activities, Masteron actually exhibits strong anti-estrogenic activity as well in the body, competing with other substrates for binding to aromatase."

Thus such this gives Super/clones strong similarities to AI's themselves as well as its steroidal properties. So an anabolic hormone which also acts as a strong AI in the body? I didn't think about it at first but after reading Theorem's info I went straight to the source. Unfortunately there's a much higher incidence of only 1% getting gyno from a Super compound, much higher. But the info on AI's during PCT being the cause is starting to make more & more sense. I researched from a lot of guys in the UK because it seems as if the delayed gyno incidence is more there than it is anywhere. After talking to many people & countless PM's I found that a majority of the people I contacted who got gyno used ATD during their PCT. In fact a huge majority used no SERM - only ATD along with other support supps. This makes a lot of sense now - due to different laws in the UK it's extremely hard for them to get certain prescription meds such as serms, making otc-inexpensive ATD's like Rebound & Inhibit-E very attractive to users there. Therefore I found a very large portion of Superdrol users in the UK used ATD. With ATD being a suicidal (irreversable) AI, it basically shuts down estro all together as some feel it's actually too strong of an AI. I stumbled upon a few cases of long term use of ATD alone causing delayed gyno. It makes sense as if estrogen levels are suppressed too much & for too long it will create a wicked hormone rebound which could easily lead to delayed gyno. By taking Superdrol/Masteron, seeing that it does bind/compete for aromatise receptors like an AI, then afterwards supressing aromatise even further by taking an AI during PCT - it's no wonder people got gyno in these cases. I'd conclude that the use of any AI will greatly increase the chances of Super delayed gyno but especially suicidal AI's such as ATD & exemestane. I feel this is also another good reason why to leave cycles of Super at 3 weeks.

 

[EasyEJL]

was that quote specifically about masteron? I don't really recall ever hearing that about superdrol, and they have a number of other differences as well.

 

[Ziquor]

was that quote specifically about masteron? I don't really recall ever hearing that about superdrol, and they have a number of other differences as well.

Yeah - good point Easy. I never considered that it was about Masteron. I wish I had more chemistry in my background, I considered taking a few classes just for fun to try and get a better grasp, since I been on here it's really peaked my interest.

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, the only way i've considered superdrol as anti-estrogenic is by the fact that it stops you from producing testosterone to aromatize

 

[ValorOfOne]

I've ran Superdrol(Original), I did not get gyno from it. Only Lethargy and back pumps from hell. And I ran it for a long ass time, 6 weeks.. (Yes, I was stupid and uninformed.)

I used Advanced PCT, An Ai, and a cortisol blocker. I am lucky as ****. This was before I had a clue what I was doing, only by the luck of the draw did I actually purchase a makeshift PCT because I thought they looked "Cool."

Regardless, that was a while ago. I wouldn't dare run Superdrol without a Serm on hand.

 

[Hate4TheWeak]

yeah, the only way i've considered superdrol as anti-estrogenic is by the fact that it stops you from producing testosterone to aromatize

Ha,ha nice:rofl:

 

[Kristofer68SS]

i am taggin this thread..........

My belief is to use ldex or aromasin with clomid.......light dosages, and taper off over 4 weeks........

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I've ran Superdrol(Original), I did not get gyno from it. Only Lethargy and back pumps from hell. And I ran it for a long ass time, 6 weeks.. (Yes, I was stupid and uninformed.)

I used Advanced PCT, An Ai, and a cortisol blocker. I am lucky as ****. This was before I had a clue what I was doing, only by the luck of the draw did I actually purchase a makeshift PCT because I thought they looked "Cool."

Regardless, that was a while ago. I wouldn't dare run Superdrol without a Serm on hand.

exactly what was this "advance pct, AI and cortisol blocker???

 

[pantera101]

exactly what was this "advance pct, AI and cortisol blocker???

It's made by anabolic xtreme if you want to look into it.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

It's made by anabolic xtreme if you want to look into it.

just the advanced pct only? that included the ai, corisol blocker as well?????

or did you buy an AI- retain????
and a cortisol blocker- Lean Xtreme?

 

[pantera101]

just the advanced pct only? that included the ai, corisol blocker as well?????

or did you buy an AI- retain????
and a cortisol blocker- Lean Xtreme?

I'm not the guy(ValorOfOne)........I was just saying it's anabolic xtremes advanced pct.It's one product and thats what it's called.Advanced pct

 

[LSU Gladiator]

For those that answered "yes," were you following the dosing instructions on the bottle? What was your dosing protocol?

 

[pantera101]

For those that answered "yes," were you following the dosing instructions on the bottle? What was your dosing protocol?

Are you asking dosing for the SD?I believe peoples problems are pct and not the SD itself,if that makes sence.Another thing is that some are clearly prone to gyno and others(thankfully me)are not.

 

[LSU Gladiator]

It's more than apparent that PCT weighs heavily in our battle against the moobs, but I'm just wondering if maybe we can establish a correlation with the dosing as well.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Come on users post your results........bump for some informative honest answers......

 

[pantera101]

It's more than apparent that PCT weighs heavily in our battle against the moobs, but I'm just wondering if maybe we can establish a correlation with the dosing as well.

Well pretty much everyone does 10/20/20.I just did 10/10/10 with no gyno.I'm still in pct but I have no signs or symptoms.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Well pretty much everyone does 10/20/20.I just did 10/10/10 with no gyno.I'm still in pct but I have no signs or symptoms.

too early to tell..........

whats your pct?

gains?

 

[pantera101]

too early to tell..........

whats your pct?

gains?

I've ran others without a serm and no gyno so I'm not realy worried about getting gyno.Nolva is 20/20/10 with drive.I have some metacort that I will use at a low dose when I stop nolva.I'm also taking bulk 1 carboxy and a complex b vitamin for prolactin.I have p-5-p but haven't felt the need for it.Rack deads went from 365 x 4-405 x10,weight went from 171-180.All other major lifts went up 20-30 lb's.

Again,last cycle was a super/phera combo at max dose.I don't know exactly how much of what was in each but it had the chemical for super and phera and said 30 mg's for 1 pill.I took 2 a day and only used advanced pct cause thats what the guy at the suppp store told me to use.This was before I belonged to this site or I would of known better.Point is,no gyno.I was noticeably shutdown for 3 weeks after cycle,starting right before the end of the cycle though.

 

[LSU Gladiator]

I've got a Compounding Pharmacist that's a good friend so I get info on what the Best PCT / anabolics are over the counter.

YOU NEED TO GET THAT GUY TO THE FORUM ASAP!

 

[pantera101]

YOU NEED TO GET THAT GUY TO THE FORUM ASAP!

X's 2!!!!!!!

 

[LSU Gladiator]

lmao - an iPhone could probably run the site. I'm not tech savvy whatsoever.