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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Just an interesting (at least to me) thought.

    Patrick Arnold mentioned a method for reducing the androgenicity of testosterone for use by women. The method was simply the use of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor.

    Now this would change the androgen/anabolic ratio of testosterone greatly in favor of anabolism. So if one wanted to adhere to Rea's protocol of running androgens in the first part of a short cycle and anabolics in the second part, one could just use testosterone throughout the entire cycle BUT add in a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor during the second part of the cycle to make that part more anabolic.
    very interesting. that makes perfect sense. however NPP or tren will be much more anabolic regardless. Either way, using test the whole time would be cheaper and easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Just an interesting (at least to me) thought.

    Patrick Arnold mentioned a method for reducing the androgenicity of testosterone for use by women. The method was simply the use of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor.

    Now this would change the androgen/anabolic ratio of testosterone greatly in favor of anabolism. So if one wanted to adhere to Rea's protocol of running androgens in the first part of a short cycle and anabolics in the second part, one could just use testosterone throughout the entire cycle BUT add in a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor during the second part of the cycle to make that part more anabolic.
    Interesting indeed.
    What are your thoughts of running Letro throughout,
    just to be on the safe side?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX01 View Post
    Interesting indeed.
    What are your thoughts of running Letro throughout,
    just to be on the safe side?
    I would think letro could lead to too much estrogen reduction, whereas aromasin or arimidex would be a better choices.
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    Simple: We used an estrogen antagonist to block receptor-sites but allowed plasma estrogen levels to remain high.
    Using Clomid as an example, it has been my experience that a novice anabolic steroids user required (if any) only 50 mg/d (50 mg per day). And an intermediate anabolic steroids user required 20-30 mg/d. An advanced anabolic steroids user commonly required 30-50 mg/d. A very advanced anabolic steroids user sometimes required 40-60 mg/d, and in most cases, some additional help from an aromatase inhibitor. The key was to watch for signs of gyno and female pattern fat deposits, while keeping a close eye on blood pressure. This was always of the utmost concern during the building of the perfect beast. High blood pressure can introduce a variety of long term and life threatening negative side effects.

    NOTE: Nolvadex decreases GH/IGF-1 synthesis and is therefore a poor choice as an estrogen antagonist.

    Things we have learned from experience...Estrogen levels were kept near normal or below before we exited the anabolic steroids protocols. So we added an estrogen aromatase inhibitor at about day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase to clear the system of excess estrogen before we exited. I have not noted many novice anabolic steroids/Max Androgen Phase users whom needed this precaution. But this was in relevance to dosages administered.

    Some intermediate anabolic steroids users opted for Arimidex 0.5-1.0 mg/d, or Proviron 50- 100 mg/d. Most advanced anabolic steroids users successfully utilized Arimidex 1.0-2.0 mg/d or Aromasin 50mg/d. This was, of course, unnecessary when a Cortisol/Estrogen Suppression Phase was layered in at the half-way point or beginning day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase.


    1) what would be a comparable dose of a second generation SERM like toremifene or Raloxifene compared to the 20-60mg/d Clomid suggestion by Rea.


    2)I have set up the following protocol of 2 "short" cycles to be rotated between. Can anyone help suggest estrogen control protocols to layer over these two different regimes?

    i was thinking something along the lines of:
    -toremifene (10-20mg ED from the start of each cycle to prevent gyno)

    -During the "mini cycle 1" I planned on using aromasin (or a natty AI if strong enough...suggestions?) starting week 2/3
    at 12.5-25mg ED).

    -I feel an AI wont be necessary during "Mini Cycle 2"

    Mini Cycle 1:
    • Days 1-15: 100-150mg ED Testosterone Propionate (frontload 200-250mg day 1)
    • Days 15-30: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
    • Days 1-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
    ** HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


    Mini Cycle 2:
    • Days 1-15: 100mg ED Trenbolone Acetate (frontload with 200mg)
    • Days 1-21: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
    • Days 10-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
    **HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


    A 4 week post cycle therapy will follow each of these cycles and include:

    POST CYCLE:

    SERM: to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha, Primordial Performance writes, "25mg/day clomid or 10mg/day nolva or 10mg/tormefene or 50mg/day raloxifene are the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research."

    ( I will most likely run a daily taper of 120/120/90/90/60/60/30/ (>that would be 7 days{first week of PCT), and then back down to the lower dose of SERM to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha...)

    Test BoostersAI: Sustain Alpha, (paravol/Drive OR Phyto-Testosterone)

    Cortisol: Retain 2, Vit c, 3g,
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    Quote Originally Posted by

    1) what would be a comparable dose of a second generation SERM like toremifene or Raloxifene compared to the 20-60mg/d Clomid suggestion by Rea.


    2)I have set up the following protocol of 2 "short" cycles to be rotated between. Can anyone help suggest estrogen control protocols to layer over these two different regimes?

    [B
    i was thinking something along the lines of:[/B]
    -toremifene (10-20mg ED from the start of each cycle to prevent gyno)

    -During the "mini cycle 1" I planned on using aromasin (or a natty AI if strong enough...suggestions?) starting week 2/3
    at 12.5-25mg ED).

    -I feel an AI wont be necessary during "Mini Cycle 2"

    Mini Cycle 1:
    Days 1-15: 100-150mg ED Testosterone Propionate (frontload 200-250mg day 1)
    Days 15-30: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
    Days 1-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
    ** HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


    Mini Cycle 2:
    Days 1-15: 100mg ED Trenbolone Acetate (frontload with 200mg)
    Days 1-21: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
    Days 10-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
    **HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


    A 4 week post cycle therapy will follow each of these cycles and include:

    POST CYCLE:

    SERM: to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha, Primordial Performance writes, "25mg/day clomid or 10mg/day nolva or 10mg/tormefene or 50mg/day raloxifene are the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research."

    ( I will most likely run a daily taper of 120/120/90/90/60/60/30/ (>that would be 7 days{first week of post cycle therapy), and then back down to the lower dose of SERM to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha...)

    Test BoostersAI: Sustain Alpha, (paravol/Drive OR Phyto-Testosterone)

    Cortisol: Retain 2, Vit c, 3g,
    pudz,
    How about this:

    Mini Cycle 1:
    Frontload (The same)
    Days 1-15 Prop (75 ED)
    Days 15-30 (45 ED-same as you posted)
    Days 1-30 NPP(again as above)
    Sometimes, Test is not always the best in higher doses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX01 View Post
    pudz,
    How about this:

    Mini Cycle 1:
    Frontload (The same)
    Days 1-15 Prop (75 ED)
    Days 15-30 (45 ED-same as you posted)
    Days 1-30 NPP(again as above)
    Sometimes, Test is not always the best in higher doses.
    yea...thats a possibility. However I feel that about 750mg prop would treat me well. so roughly 110mg per week. (only reason I used more was becuase propionate is roughly 79% test: ester weight. so at 150mg per day x 7 days...1050. (1050 x .79= 830mg)

    I have only had experience with enanthate. and ran that up to 750mg but didn't overcompensate for ester weight.

    I will probably stick between 75-100mg and on later cycles increase the dose when/if necessary.

    thanks bro.

    I would really like some feedback on my estro control protocols.
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    Out of the tests which has the best test to ester ratio i.e. the most test per bottle / ampule?
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    Out of the tests which has the best test to ester ratio i.e. the most test per bottle / ampule?
    suspension=100% test
    prop=79% test
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    pudz when are you looking to run this? i might let you be the guinea pig for this and if successful i'll follow i'm looking to go on, if everything goes accordingly, right around june 1st
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    pudz when are you looking to run this? i might let you be the guinea pig for this and if successful i'll follow i'm looking to go on, if everything goes accordingly, right around june 1st
    haha I am looking to go back on around may 10th. so approx 1 month ahead of you. If this works, Which Im 90% confident (on paper/theory wise) that it will....It will be the way I cycle for a while.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    haha I am looking to go back on around may 10th. so approx 1 month ahead of you. If this works, Which Im 90% confident (on paper/theory wise) that it will....It will be the way I cycle for a while.
    damn i hope this works out for you!! the only thing is, you will not have a longer cycle with the same compounds to compare and contrast it with so you will not know if it would have been more/less effective. but hell, if it works, it works. i'll once again be following your progress closely!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    damn i hope this works out for you!! the only thing is, you will not have a longer cycle with the same compounds to compare and contrast it with so you will not know if it would have been more/less effective. but hell, if it works, it works. i'll once again be following your progress closely!
    thanks man. yea I will have no point of comparison, but at the same time, if it DOESNT work for some reason, then I will be able to conclude that I need to be ON longer.....I doubt that this will be the case.

    shorter cycles are common practice, safer, and more effective in the long run....(at least for some)......and I assume that at some point, depending on the individual and the amount of mass he is carrying, longer cycles/staying on may be more favorable. Im not close to that point yet, so I will stick to this method if it works. I have confidence in it.
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    Okay I've read most of the thread and here are some comments:

    1. I personally like shorter cycles (no more than 6 weeks). I hate being severely shut down.

    2. Only issue I have with short cycles is your likely using short ester gear. Test flu seems more common with short ester gear. Now if you get test flu for a week or two of a 6 week cycle it really sucks. Training is less than intense and generally a miserable experience.

    3. Whats the purpose of the epi in your cycle pudz? I'd drop it. Its an inconsistent compound and I would stick to something more proven if using an oral at all (a bombs or d ballz).

    4. Whats your prop blend look like? Assuming its the standard 100mg/ml your going to be pinning a lot to get to 1g/week.

    I think thats all I got right now...
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    Wait one more thing...been reading a lot on CKD diets. I think I like the priming idea. I've done one cycle with a cut right before it and I was pleased with the results. My last cycle I bulked like crazy right before cycle....then I was so mentally done with the bulking thing that I really gained no weight on cycle and pretty much felt ****ty with no appetite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupFatHead View Post
    Wait one more thing...been reading a lot on CKD diets. I think I like the priming idea. I've done one cycle with a cut right before it and I was pleased with the results. My last cycle I bulked like crazy right before cycle....then I was so mentally done with the bulking thing that I really gained no weight on cycle and pretty much felt ****ty with no appetite.
    You are absolutely spot on in your thinking! 6-8 weeks of a CKD is perfect before hitting a cycle.

    I first stumbled on priming in a weird way. I was doing a 20 week cycle. I had great gains in the first 8 weeks so for some experiemental reason I decided (against all advice) to start a CKD cut at week 9...I lowered my test dose and used T3 and dieted down to a really low bodyfat % and then on week 14 I really went crazy w/ multi-grams of test, gym twice a day and as much as I could eat and BOOM for 4 weeks everything I ate seemed to increase muscle. I gained no bodyfat...in fact I leaned out a bit more and was more vascular...all on high test alone. Then at week 18 (after more than 4 weeks post diet "prime") I started putting on some fat & sides started up so by week 20 I was ready to come off.

    I had done long cycles before (actually they were my standard way of doing them) and the only way I was ever able to continue to gain much on the back end was to change compounds/ up dosages/ be willing to accept more fat gain & put up w/ increasing sides.

    So this made me look at "priming" more...although this term wasn't really in fashion at the time the concept was out there already...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupFatHead View Post
    ...
    2. Only issue I have with short cycles is your likely using short ester gear. Test flu seems more common with short ester gear. Now if you get test flu for a week or two of a 6 week cycle it really sucks. Training is less than intense and generally a miserable experience.
    ....
    Yes I agree. I have a different take on short-cycles which is far far from the position of most...and that is I prefer long-esters even in a short cycle.

    I respond VERY well to Testosterone-cyp & perhaps even a little quicker then most...my mood gets happy w/in hours of an inject...so you can see that any little bit that makes its way to my bloodstream where it becomes active has a quick effect on me. I always front-load Test-cyp and I prefer to just let long-esters wind down in the final 2 weeks before PCT.

    I would be able to gain well on a 6 weeker of just long-estered test and nothing else.

    So nothing is set in stone despite what people SCREAM!!! at you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Yes I agree. I have a different take on short-cycles which is far far from the position of most...and that is I prefer long-esters even in a short cycle.

    I respond VERY well to Testosterone-cyp & perhaps even a little quicker then most...my mood gets happy w/in hours of an inject...so you can see that any little bit that makes its way to my bloodstream where it becomes active has a quick effect on me. I always front-load Test-cyp and I prefer to just let long-esters wind down in the final 2 weeks before post cycle therapy.

    I would be able to gain well on a 6 weeker of just long-estered test and nothing else.

    So nothing is set in stone despite what people SCREAM!!! at you.
    Thats interesting....is that consistent with any cyp you have used (different oils/solvents/supplier/etc)?
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    I absolutely plan on priming before my first and probably before many of these cycles so as to keep bodyfat very low and keep responding well to the gear. I will have to wait and see how bad test flu hits me. Like Dat said. Nothing is set in stone. If it is bad, I will devise another plan and incorporate longer esters.

    As my current PCT comes to a close, I intend to diet down slowly to a sub 10% bodyfat. I think it is very do-able without sacrificing much LBM. I am currently 235lbs at about 14-15% bodyfat, and 5'9". that is way to high for me, but with my schedule, my diet has been inconsistent.

    I do not wish to take this thread off topic so I will start another one where i brainstorm my diet. If you guys would like to help/critique It would be much appreciated. Dat, your advice would be great considering im sure you are bigger than 235lbs and you have sub 10% bf.

    Ill post a link on here when I start the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupFatHead View Post
    Okay I've read most of the thread and here are some comments:

    1. I personally like shorter cycles (no more than 6 weeks). I hate being severely shut down.

    2. Only issue I have with short cycles is your likely using short ester gear. Test flu seems more common with short ester gear. Now if you get test flu for a week or two of a 6 week cycle it really sucks. Training is less than intense and generally a miserable experience.

    3. Whats the purpose of the epi in your cycle pudz? I'd drop it. Its an inconsistent compound and I would stick to something more proven if using an oral at all (a bombs or d ballz).

    4. Whats your prop blend look like? Assuming its the standard 100mg/ml your going to be pinning a lot to get to 1g/week.

    I think thats all I got right now...


    the epi was just thrown in there for discussion sake. That is not actually a cycle I had planned on doing. BUT, if the availability of certain compounds like (NPP) isnt so good, then that cycle would be an alternative. However, I agree with you in that its best to steer clear of ph's like that.
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    pudz i need to talk about a slow cut myself. link me up
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    Pudz requesting DIET help....

    Here I go guys: thread started.

    any help would be greatly appreciated
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    what do you guys think about this approach. i am staying on 250mgs of test e, 700mgs of primo e, and equipoise @ 300mgs from now till september. and every 4 weeks will be doing a blitz with fina @ 75 eod, test prop @ 100 ed and winny injectable @ 50 ed. maybe throw in an oral like var or superdrol. how should i workout and eat on the cruise weeks. should i follow the ckd diet then blast carbs with my prop and fina or just eat and lift like bulk the whole way thru. what are your thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian bair View Post
    what do you guys think about this approach. i am staying on 250mgs of test e, 700mgs of primo e, and equipoise @ 300mgs from now till september. and every 4 weeks will be doing a blitz with fina @ 75 eod, test prop @ 100 ed and winny injectable @ 50 ed. maybe throw in an oral like var or superdrol. how should i workout and eat on the cruise weeks. should i follow the ckd diet then blast carbs with my prop and fina or just eat and lift like bulk the whole way thru. what are your thoughts?

    what is your ultimate goal? and what is your current status: bodyfat, weight, height etc.

    Being on that long (even cruising) provides even more of a reason to Prime yourself during your cycle do keep gains coming.

    As far as your diet and lifting...well I guess that's goal dependent. Obviously during the prime, you will want to carb cycle/ cut calories.
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    Tide Cycle


    Here is an interesting cycle that pulses an androgen with an anabolic so that steroidal blood levels remain fairly constant but androgens peak every 8 days and anabolics peak every 8 days in an alternating rhythm. Its called a TIDE CYCLE and is described as:

    A "TIDE CYCLE" is made up of transitional periods where (high androgens) and (low-moderate androgens) benefit one another as they release into the blood stream at different periods. This produces a tide like effect allowing muscle building-Estrogenic Activity to occur without any over accumulation. Testosterone Cypionate and Deca have an active life of 16 days and a half life/peaking life of 8 days making them a great pair for such a regimine. No anti-estrogens are to be used during a "TIDE CYCLE" - IRON MAN

    SAMPLE TIDE CYCLE

    Testosterone Cypionate 400 mgs/daily: Day#1, 8, 15, 22, 29, 36, 43, 50, 57, 64
    Deca Durabolin 300 mgs/daily: Day#4, 5, 11, 12, 18, 19, 25, 26, 32, 33, 39, 40, 46, 47, 53, 54, 60, 61, 67, 68

    If you graphed it out it would looked like this:

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian bair View Post
    what do you guys think about this approach. i am staying on 250mgs of test e, 700mgs of primo e, and equipoise @ 300mgs from now till september. and every 4 weeks will be doing a blitz with fina @ 75 eod, test prop @ 100 ed and winny injectable @ 50 ed. maybe throw in an oral like var or superdrol. how should i workout and eat on the cruise weeks. should i follow the ckd diet then blast carbs with my prop and fina or just eat and lift like bulk the whole way thru. what are your thoughts?
    This is a horrible approach. This thread is about maxamizing gains in the least amount of time.

    This approach is being explored here in large part because we understand that the less time your HPTA is suppressed, the faster and stronger it will rebound when you come off.

    Your cycle is way too long...there doesn't appear to be any rationale to the use of various compounds...your HPTA will likely be permanently damaged...you want to be on steroids for 7 f@cking months!

    So now calculating a proper time off we use the following formula:

    HTPA recovery time + the length of time you were using the steroids + a minimum of 1 week more.

    So lets say you do an 8 week post cycle therapy (yes that long is needed pour vous) that would mean 9 to 10 months where you don't run another cycle. Is that your plan?

    I bet not. To hell with minimizing liver and kidney stress and blood lipid inversions leading to premature coronary artery disease...among other things.

    You are already on cycle now and you have no plan! How do I eat, how do I lift...by the way I'm on steroids now and plan to be for the next 7 months...ain't I cool?

    You are a damn fool... that's what I think about you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Here is an interesting cycle that pulses an androgen with an anabolic so that steroidal blood levels remain fairly constant but androgens peak every 8 days and anabolics peak every 8 days in an alternating rhythm. Its called a TIDE CYCLE and is described as:

    A "TIDE CYCLE" is made up of transitional periods where (high androgens) and (low-moderate androgens) benefit one another as they release into the blood stream at different periods. This produces a tide like effect allowing muscle building-Estrogenic Activity to occur without any over accumulation. Testosterone Cypionate and Deca have an active life of 16 days and a half life/peaking life of 8 days making them a great pair for such a regimine. No anti-estrogens are to be used during a "TIDE CYCLE" - IRON MAN

    SAMPLE TIDE CYCLE

    Testosterone Cypionate 400 mgs/daily: Day#1, 8, 15, 22, 29, 36, 43, 50, 57, 64
    Deca Durabolin 300 mgs/daily: Day#4, 5, 11, 12, 18, 19, 25, 26, 32, 33, 39, 40, 46, 47, 53, 54, 60, 61, 67, 68

    If you graphed it out it would looked like this:

    this is a VERY interesting approach. However due to the relatively slow (although consistent) transitions and half-lives of the compounds...we see that the cycle is about 8+weeks in length. This isnt too long a period by any means, especially considering that the compounds are not hitting hard and dropping hard, and no anti -e's are needed....but as far as HPTA recovery, it is taking a different angles then the formerly proposed 3-4 week cycles where HPTA interruptions are minimal if even present.

    I mean... to recap: who ever decided that it would be a societal norm (by society I mean amongst bbers and athletes) to use steroids IN PLACE of the natural endocrine balance...probably due to trial and error but now that we know SO much more about these chemicals and their interactions with human physiology it would seem likely that MORE people would want to take an alternate approach. Why not just SUPPLEMENT the natural hormone balance with AAS instead of saying ok, im going to stay on this crap for this long and then TRY and fix myself after. WELL like you mentioned there are several factors that using AAS for LONG periods of time impose such as permanent damage from lipid alterations...damage to blood vessels from increased blood pressure, liver issues, kidney issues, consistently enlarged prostate, drops in sperm count etc etc. MOST if not all of these problems are from LONG term alterations and suppression of the natural balances in our bodies.

    OBVIOUSLY we have proven on paper and from experience that MOST people experience the bulk of their results from AAS during the first few weeks when they start to kick in and reach peak blood levels. After which, the body realizes that these substances arent going away on their own, so it uses its homeostatic mechanisms to regulate the newly altered state. HENCE why our natural testosterone becomes near nil, and all the other issues take place.

    ^^ So why do that in the first place>?

    lets just adopt a new methodology (for those interested of course)...

    DAT,

    I know that it is common to stay off for the amount of time ON+amount of time used for PCT+minimum of one week, BUT according to the routine I posted earlier (my 2 example cycles) and according to Rea's theories etc, the body shouldnt need more than 3-4 weeks MAX of recovery time after a 28 day or so cycle. If planned well, shutdown shouldnt be an issue, and if we are in fact suppressed/shut down after these few short weeks, the rebound could probably take place ON ITS own upon ester clearance. Combine that with a powerful HPTA stim (SERM) like toremifene and other healthy PCT ingredients and recovery shouldn't be an issue at all (hopefully within days). That is why I have a 4weeks on+4weeks OFF type of idea. For now, that is what I have planned, however if after one of the cyles, if the system isnt back to normal then obviously more time off is needed and the cycle done maybe needs to be altered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    this is a VERY interesting approach. However due to the relatively slow (although consistent) transitions and half-lives of the compounds...we see that the cycle is about 8+weeks in length. This isnt too long a period by any means, especially considering that the compounds are not hitting hard and dropping hard, and no anti -e's are needed....but as far as HPTA recovery, it is taking a different angles then the formerly proposed 3-4 week cycles where HPTA interruptions are minimal if even present.
    Oh yeah...this was Ironmans's example and he choose those compounds just to demonstrate & make the math easier.

    By-the-way Deca is a great compound BUT it interferes with recovery of HPTA for a longer period of time then a lot of other compounds...so even in an 8 week cycle w/ Deca we have screwed up and made our recovery too long.

    I just liked the idea of the TIDE CYCLE & the alternating pulsating androgen to anabolic profile. There is no reason short-esters couldn't be used to create a short cycle.

    For that matter if one could make an accurate calculation...just testosterone could be used and a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor pulsed to create fluctuating androgen/anabolic periods of time.

    I'm not proposing that anyone use this type of cycle...just thought it was "old school" w/ a lot of relevancy to one of the things we have been talking about...i.e. maxamizing gains

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I know that it is common to stay off for the amount of time ON+amount of time used for post cycle therapy+minimum of one week, BUT according to the routine I posted earlier (my 2 example cycles) and according to Rea's theories etc, the body shouldnt need more than 3-4 weeks MAX of recovery time after a 28 day or so cycle. If planned well, shutdown shouldnt be an issue, and if we are in fact suppressed/shut down after these few short weeks, the rebound could probably take place ON ITS own upon ester clearance. Combine that with a powerful HPTA stim (SERM) like toremifene and other healthy PCT ingredients and recovery shouldn't be an issue at all (hopefully within days). That is why I have a 4weeks on+4weeks OFF type of idea. For now, that is what I have planned, however if after one of the cyles, if the system isnt back to normal then obviously more time off is needed and the cycle done maybe needs to be altered.
    Actually a good general rule is to look at a long period of time...say one year...and see if you have been ON steroids for more days than you were OFF. If you were ON more than six months out of the year then that is abuse.

    The amount of time needed to recover is a lot less for short cycles than for long cycles. The one time I did a 2 week cycle I felt recovered w/in 1 week and blood work a month later showed no negative changes in both lipids & hormone panel.

    When I did 20 week cycles (way too long in hindsight) I needed to nurse & coax my HPTA back...and so 7 weeks of PCT was needed and then I stayed off and lifted natural for at least 30 weeks and blood work taken at that point always looked good.

    SO Pudz your PCT & off time is fine for such short cycles. You have a well thought out plan which includes an approach to PCT that works for you...you are planning many months in advance...you are focusing on training aspects & diet...your approach should serve as a good example to guys on how to approach taking steroids.

    Now the Fool who is already ON and plans to go for 7 months is shutting down his HPTA for such a long time...he may not ever fully recover from that long a shutdown...he is also in his late 30's so his HPTA (by nature) is already in noticable decline...enough said about it!
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    Is the only way to stop shutdown on cycle to use HCG?
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    Is the only way to stop shutdown on cycle to use HCG?
    HCG doesnt stop shut down. It replaces LH. this does mean that FSH is supressed though. the LH will prevent testicular atrophy, but to what degree it keeps the testes producing testosterone is unknown to me...
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Oh yeah...this was Ironmans's example and he choose those compounds just to demonstrate & make the math easier.

    By-the-way Deca is a great compound BUT it interferes with recovery of HPTA for a longer period of time then a lot of other compounds...so even in an 8 week cycle w/ Deca we have screwed up and made our recovery too long.

    I just liked the idea of the TIDE CYCLE & the alternating pulsating androgen to anabolic profile. There is no reason short-esters couldn't be used to create a short cycle.

    For that matter if one could make an accurate calculation...just testosterone could be used and a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor pulsed to create fluctuating androgen/anabolic periods of time.

    I'm not proposing that anyone use this type of cycle...just thought it was "old school" w/ a lot of relevancy to one of the things we have been talking about...i.e. maxamizing gains



    Actually a good general rule is to look at a long period of time...say one year...and see if you have been ON steroids for more days than you were OFF. If you were ON more than six months out of the year then that is abuse.

    The amount of time needed to recover is a lot less for short cycles than for long cycles. The one time I did a 2 week cycle I felt recovered w/in 1 week and blood work a month later showed no negative changes in both lipids & hormone panel.

    When I did 20 week cycles (way too long in hindsight) I needed to nurse & coax my HPTA back...and so 7 weeks of post cycle therapy was needed and then I stayed off and lifted natural for at least 30 weeks and blood work taken at that point always looked good.

    SO Pudz your PCT & off time is fine for such short cycles. You have a well thought out plan which includes an approach to PCT that works for you...you are planning many months in advance...you are focusing on training aspects & diet...your approach should serve as a good example to guys on how to approach taking steroids.

    Now the Fool who is already ON and plans to go for 7 months is shutting down his HPTA for such a long time...he may not ever fully recover from that long a shutdown...he is also in his late 30's so his HPTA (by nature) is already in noticable decline...enough said about it!


    thank you for the compliments my friend. Your help is greatly appreciated. I must say your education in the field from research and EXPERIENCE has helped me greatly.

    I truly just think that ( I hadnt realized this until I continued to get a better understanding about EVERYTHING related to steroid use) that especially as technology improves, there are better or at least different ways of using steroids as opposed to On for a while and Off for a while.

    Now the plan i have is so that there is consistency. Obviously I want to make consistent progress so as to hopefully achieve my goals. That is why these shorter cycles would benefit me. its like, get in, get the job done, get out. re-assess, re-adjust and start over.

    I figure that 3-4 weeks ON (probably 4 unless too suppressive for me) and 2 weeks PCT would be enough, but the extra two weeks are thrown in there for safety sake. so essentially here TIME ON=TIME OFF. if carried out through the entire year this would be approx 6 months on and 6 months off. Since this process isn't totally efficient and becuase I would like to skew the ratio of ON:OFF to favor OFF, after every two consecutive short cycles I think a break of 6-8 (so 2-4 weeks PCT after the 2nd cycle and then 4-6 additional weeks off) weeks would be beneficial.

    Dat,

    Any suggestions as to when blood work should be done? It would get rather pricey to do between each cycle although possible if insurance can cover it. (hmmmm)....but I think I will do bloodowork between cycles for the first time through to get a quantitative idea of how my body is reacting to these short blasts of AAS usage. Then the cycle protocols themselves can be tweaked if there is a problem or two. After this preliminary step I was thinking of limiting blood work to the 6-8 week rest period after 2 consecutive cycles.

    What do you guys think?

    Dat,

    are you interested in applying these theories to your own AAS usage?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    Any suggestions as to when blood work should be done? It would get rather pricey ...

    What do you guys think?
    Early on I wanted to see where my body was BEFORE a cycle and then post-PCT...I did this when I used different compounds...thats how I know that Deca, Tren and Anadrol were harsher on my hormone profile then Testosterone, EQ, DBol, Var and Turinabol.

    But eventually I settled into a once a year complete bloodwork...like I said I took 30 weeks off after the end of a 20 week cycle. It was at the end of my time off that I had a complete physical exam and blood analysis.

    If something was off (and thankfully it never was) I would have taken steps to bring that back in line before cycling again or I just would stop the further use of AAS. So I started a cycle with peace of mind.

    Now there is bloodwork I do ALL the time on my own and that is measuring my blood sugar w/ a glucometer. I'm not diabetic but I like to see what blood sugar effect my diet, timing, Insulin & IGF-1, fiber w/ carbs, fat w/ a meal, etc.. has as well as figuring out ways to keep insulin below the threshold that spills carbs over into fatty tissue.

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    Are you interested in applying these theories to your own AAS usage?
    I am interested in using a long estered-test and front-loading it (which means I will began to receive an anabolic effect w/in 1 week...I KNOW this to be true for me). I am also interested in letting the blood levels taper on there own between last shot & PCT and of using an AI during this 16 day transition time period.

    I am interested in having a quicker PCT & recovery w/ the possibility of running a follow on cycle.

    I am interested in cutting as a prime before the first cycle.

    This all leads me to duration...I am leaning toward a medium length cycle of 7-8 weeks (not counting the 1st week of blood level build up & counting only one of the weeks between last shot and the start of PCT.

    My goals are different then most. I've been big & ripped before. I chose to drop 40+ pounds of muscle to address sleep apnea problems I had and shrink my neck size down to "normal" while trying to retain size where I wanted it. So this cycle would just be to bring up a few areas and enjoy 8 weeks of a test "high".
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    Can I just say that is has got to be one of the best threads ever.

    The amount of information, research/thoughts and experience contained in a few short pages is staggering.

    Thanks pudz for always starting interesting threads with what you have been thinking about and datBtru for enlightening and easily understood posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    Can I just say that is has got to be one of the best threads ever.

    The amount of information, research/thoughts and experience contained in a few short pages is staggering.

    Thanks pudz for always starting interesting threads with what you have been thinking about and datBtru for enlightening and easily understood posts.

    your kind words are sincerely appreciated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Early on I wanted to see where my body was BEFORE a cycle and then post-post cycle therapy...I did this when I used different compounds...thats how I know that Deca, Tren and Anadrol were harsher on my hormone profile then Testosterone, EQ, DBol, Var and Turinabol.

    But eventually I settled into a once a year complete bloodwork...like I said I took 30 weeks off after the end of a 20 week cycle. It was at the end of my time off that I had a complete physical exam and blood analysis.

    If something was off (and thankfully it never was) I would have taken steps to bring that back in line before cycling again or I just would stop the further use of anabolic steroids. So I started a cycle with peace of mind.

    Now there is bloodwork I do ALL the time on my own and that is measuring my blood sugar w/ a glucometer. I'm not diabetic but I like to see what blood sugar effect my diet, timing, Insulin & IGF-1, fiber w/ carbs, fat w/ a meal, etc.. has as well as figuring out ways to keep insulin below the threshold that spills carbs over into fatty tissue.



    I am interested in using a long estered-test and front-loading it (which means I will began to receive an anabolic effect w/in 1 week...I KNOW this to be true for me). I am also interested in letting the blood levels taper on there own between last shot & PCT and of using an AI during this 16 day transition time period.

    I am interested in having a quicker PCT & recovery w/ the possibility of running a follow on cycle.

    I am interested in cutting as a prime before the first cycle.

    This all leads me to duration...I am leaning toward a medium length cycle of 7-8 weeks (not counting the 1st week of blood level build up & counting only one of the weeks between last shot and the start of PCT.

    My goals are different then most. I've been big & ripped before. I chose to drop 40+ pounds of muscle to address sleep apnea problems I had and shrink my neck size down to "normal" while trying to retain size where I wanted it. So this cycle would just be to bring up a few areas and enjoy 8 weeks of a test "high".
    so your intention isnt necessarily to try to avoid HPTA suppression but keep it so that you are only suppressed for a shorter time and therefore can bounce back much easier correct? Obviously your choice of a long estered testosterone is one of the reasons for this cycle length.

    why do you prefer a longer ester over a shorter one? I have my doubts that type of ester length could be successfully applied to my approach due the the cycle length. however it MAY help avoid test-flu and fewer injects for you.

    damn dat. How big were/are you?
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    What kind of dosages would you front load for your eight weeker?

    Do you think the Test / EQ would be a good first cycle combination?
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    What kind of dosages would you front load for your eight weeker?

    Do you think the Test / EQ would be a good first cycle combination?
    Yes. i did Test EQ long esters for my first. Its a good and safer way to start.
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    I found alot of good information on www.hormone-expert.com

    I read about the pro's n cons of a lot of the steroids. My friend has a Deca / EQ combo but from what I read Deca isn't really a good choice for me it would be Test E most likely and something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    I found alot of good information on www.hormone-expert.com

    I read about the pro's n cons of a lot of the steroids. My friend has a Deca / EQ combo but from what I read Deca isn't really a good choice for me it would be Test E most likely and something.
    yea some discourage deca for a first cycle. I would opt for test + EQ. I will attest to it since it worked well for me. Just don't get your hopes TOO high. Although I gained some weight, alot was water and some was fat. Now that I am cutting a bit, I see that I only gained about 10-15 actual pounds of LBM which is great for a first cycle. But eh...
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    Also, 8 weeks is probably a little short for EQ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xodus View Post
    Also, 8 weeks is probably a little short for EQ.
    oh yea forgot to address that issue. EQ didnt start working in me UNTIL 7-8 weeks. so incorporating it into an 8 weeker without some serious front loading would be useless IMO. BUT if you were to front load and let the blood levels taper on their own like DAT was referring to then it could be done, BUT this would take longer than 8 weeks probably (the ester clearance)
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