Burst cycliing

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    you really see that big of a difference with 150mg extra a week?
    It wasn't always so but at this stage of my life it makes a difference. For me it feels like they are two different levels rather then just a 150mg increase. My results exceed what you would expect if you use a linear linear equation to anticipate results. This is specific to testosterone though.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    I agree. I would want to maxamize the use of the tren and skew the ratio toward androgens...if I tolerated tren well. My brother tolerates it very well and doesn't even need to use test w/ it and it works for him. You probably will do well w/ tren as well.



    My reasoning is simply that in that short of a time span I don't need 3 different compounds to maxamize growth. I grow very well with testosterone...and I tolerate it very very very well (hmmmm I just thought of something...my brother doesn't tolerate testosterone too well but really digs on tren....just the opposite of me...I don't know what that means...just an observation). I'm not sure I'd benefit from adding an oral over increasing my dose of test.

    On long cycles I have found that adding on oral on top of the test in the middle of the cycle (where gains slowed) gave me a new boost in gains...thats where I've usually used them.

    Why DBol as the oral for a Rea cycle? DBol is very anabolic. It is a terrific oral in my opinion. The extra water will enable you to lift more and sooth the joints after you have spent the first few weeks pushing the poundages very quickly due to the heavy dose of tren. For me personally it really enhances my mood. (Test, Deca & DBol are the 3 compounds that never fail to make me very happy). It acts quickly as well and doesn't need to build up to be effective.

    The worry I would have w/ prohormones is that they may not be strong enough and more importantly they seem to need to build up for a week or so to be effective.

    The choices on the compounds you make are real subjective though. The decision depends primarily on how you react to the compounds based on prior use and what you have available. It is far easier for me to be able to predict the outcome of my cycle based on the dosage of a single compound then it is if I use a variety of compounds. Test at 600mg/week vs 750mg/week makes a big difference to me, while 1 gram+ run for shorter times will begin to maxamize my results.
    soma: I agree that the properties of superdrol would allow it to work well in this situation. HOWEVER it is sooo harsh (on me at least) I will never use it again. Also, like DatBtrue said...it does take time to build up as most ph's do.

    I agree that after a '75%' androgen run with test and tren, the dbol would help smooth things out. (mood, joints, gains etc.) the only 'problem' (for some) would be that it literally smooths things out. aside from aesthetically, the extra estro conversion from dbol (on top of whatever estro is floating around from the test), may lead to a problem when all the compounds are dropped. Unless we use a good dose of AI which could be hard to determine. and then like you mentioned, yet ANOTHER drug needing to be processed. I wonder if using trans-reserveratrol in a higher dose, with something like dermacrine sustain would suffice as a natural method.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    What you want is fast acting compounds; that hit the androgen receptors hard; enable you to make some solid gains; minimize sides; and clear quickly.

    The following stacks meet your requirements:

    Test Prop/Tren Ace
    Test Prop/Tren Ace/Winny
    Test Prop/Anadrol
    Test Prop/Dbol
    First of all I'd like to say that this is a very informative thread. I had the luxury of running 2 blast cycles last year separated by PCT. They were Test Prop w/ DBOL, followed by Test Prop & Tren. I gained 28 lbs!!!! I'm not kidding either as I had just finished a cutting cycle 2.5 months prior and was looking to seriously bulk.

    Incidentally, I hadn't kept up w/ my calories prior to this cycle due to a heavy school load. When I got my gear, I started eating like a mad man for a couple of days before I even pinned myself.

  4. Also, PCT was so easy that I managed to keep all but 8 lbs for over 7 months

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    First of all I'd like to say that this is a very informative thread. I had the luxury of running 2 blast cycles last year separated by post cycle therapy. They were Test Prop w/ DBOL, followed by Test Prop & Tren. I gained 28 lbs!!!! I'm not kidding either as I had just finished a cutting cycle 2.5 months prior and was looking to seriously bulk.

    Incidentally, I hadn't kept up w/ my calories prior to this cycle due to a heavy school load. When I got my gear, I started eating like a mad man for a couple of days before I even pinned myself.
    how long did each blast cycle last?
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    how long did each blast cycle last?
    Roughly 4 weeks.

    The first one (DBOL/Test) I tapered the test down so it was really like 5 weeks. I did this because I was afraid of sudden weight loss coming off 2 compounds immediately, especially associated w/ DBOL ending @ the 4week mark.

    Test/Tren was run at 4 weeks simply because I only had a 4 week supply of tren. I believe the test/dbol helped with massive gains, while test/tren got my body accustomed to the new weight gain & added some pounds as well.

    EX. I dropped about 6 lbs (water) after the DBOL/Test . With Test/Tren I regained those 6lbs + 4 additional lbs and didn't have any water retention.

  7. I don't know if this was covered more in detail yet, but wouldn't NPP (Nandrolone PhenylPropionate,short acting ester) be a great alternative to tren?
    Like maybe 2 week Test Prop/NPP run,
    this way,you have the benefit of easier joints and less shut down?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by FX01 View Post
    I don't know if this was covered more in detail yet, but wouldn't NPP (Nandrolone PhenylPropionate,short acting ester) be a great alternative to tren?
    Like maybe 2 week Test Prop/NPP run,
    this way,you have the benefit of easier joints and less shut down?
    NPP (aka Durabolin) is very anabolic and was actually used in Rea's first example for the "anabolic phase". A testosterone blend was what he used in that example for the "androgen phase".

    I like your combo Test Prop/NPP. Your thinking is primo!

    Speaking of Primo, Pudz you mentioned primo as a transition compound well in rereading Rea he mentions it as well and gave his reason for it:

    Another common beast utilized option for example was the addition of a high anabolic /low androgenic such as Primobolan to create a second step in transition from high androgenic to high anabolic periods. This would have been best utilized if Frank was one of those athletes who either lost post-cycle lean mass more easily than others, or if he had suffered HPTA suppression on a serious level even when employing such brief protocols.
    ...
    No doubt some would say this was useless. I say they have not dealt with the problem.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    ...I had the luxury of running 2 blast cycles last year separated by post cycle therapy.
    Interesting...so do you think your approach was more beneficial as far as (1) gains & (2) final recovery then a combined longer cycle (w/ no PCT in the middle)?

    You so often hear guys say once you are supressed you might as well just stay on...and if you are just going to go right back on then why bother w/ a PCT. So I am curious what your thoughts are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    They were Test Prop w/ DBOL, followed by Test Prop & Tren.
    The first one is as Rea recommends (i.e. closing w/ an anabolic) but the second closes w/ an even heavier androgen.

    But you recovered well right? So maybe closing w/ the anabolic is really only beneficial to those that based on prior cycle history have a hard time keeping gains & recovering. For all others closing w/ an androgen might be okay (perhaps even preferential).

    Thanks for sharing you experience...

  10. Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    NPP (aka Durabolin) is very anabolic and was actually used in Rea's first example for the "anabolic phase". A testosterone blend was what he used in that example for the "androgen phase".

    I like your combo Test Prop/NPP. Your thinking is primo!

    Speaking of Primo, Pudz you mentioned primo as a transition compound well in rereading Rea he mentions it as well and gave his reason for it:

    Another common beast utilized option for example was the addition of a high anabolic /low androgenic such as Primobolan to create a second step in transition from high androgenic to high anabolic periods. This would have been best utilized if Frank was one of those athletes who either lost post-cycle lean mass more easily than others, or if he had suffered HPTA suppression on a serious level even when employing such brief protocols.
    ...
    No doubt some would say this was useless. I say they have not dealt with the problem.


    yea NPP would be ideal! although it seems much harder to come by. at least as far as my resources are concerned. I suggested primo by comparing all benefits/properties of the compound. Minimally suppressive under most conditions, much more anabolic than androgenic, would help prevent and smooth out the highly aromatizing compounds (test or test+dbol).

    well since hte test NPP would most likely be ideal (for most people and on PAPER), lets just put that aside and consider other options. Obviously it isnt hard to piece together the androgenic closing. we could clearly just stick with test and tren , or just drop the tren at the 75% mark and keep the test.


    what would seem ideal (FOR ME-for sake of discussion) would be a 75:25 (androgen:anabolic) run of test prop/tren ace, and then cut out the tren at the 75% point, and replace with a highly anabolic oral whilst TAPERING off the test. (tapering has been tried and true for me and IMO. so obviously dbol is a possible choice. now is 2-3 weeks of dbol create enough estro conversion to worry about using an AI? we now have someone who can attest to saying no from experience. but, if one were to start bloating, then an AI should probably be used. OR we can consider another compound altogether (or even adding some primo or proviron).

    pro vs con: primo is not as anabolic as other compounds, BUT it is also remarkably less supressive, and provides much more quality gains. It can also prevent us from using an AI to keep test bloat down. (like Rea said: a transition). but is primo strong enough to yield anything when used as the sole anabolic compound for such a short time? (along with the test of course)? It may not be....... and if used, we would probably be looking at 200+mg


    options, options......

  11. Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Interesting...so do you think your approach was more beneficial as far as (1) gains & (2) final recovery then a combined longer cycle (w/ no post cycle therapy in the middle)?

    You so often hear guys say once you are supressed you might as well just stay on...and if you are just going to go right back on then why bother w/ a post cycle therapy. So I am curious what your thoughts are.
    I used this approach because I noticed I make most of my gains w/in the first two weeks of cycles (or in the beginning after my compound of choice kicks in). I believe that's because your body has the combination of endogenous hormones + external sources (anabolic steroids). After a week or two, your testosterone drops dramatically...What would happen if you lowered your dosage of test in the middle of a cycle? You would certainly not put on LBM like before, correct?

    I'm no scientist making these statements, but I do shut down pretty hard & fast. This is why I used this approach and I got this idea from another site.


    The first one is as Rea recommends (i.e. closing w/ an anabolic) but the second closes w/ an even heavier androgen.

    But you recovered well right? So maybe closing w/ the anabolic is really only beneficial to those that based on prior cycle history have a hard time keeping gains & recovering. For all others closing w/ an androgen might be okay (perhaps even preferential).
    I looked at trenbolone's anabolic/androgenic ratio on steroid.com and it stated it as 500:500. So, although androgenic, tren is pretty anabolic as well but most activity is through binding w/ the AR receptor. In my case, I chose to use tren for the 2nd 4 week cycle only because it was a stronger compound and I wanted to still make gains.


    I was also convinced that running this cycle just to merely hold onto the weight gain would be beneficial. It's not natural to put on a great amount of weight in 4 weeks. Luckily, I added even more weight w/ this run. Also, a football player from USC told me that of all the s#it him and his buddies took, Tren was the best for keeping gains.

    I ran a pretty crafty schedule for SERMs and AIs as well utilizing both arimidex and tamoxifen.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...now is 2-3 weeks of dbol create enough estro conversion to worry about using an AI?
    I think so. More importantly I believe and I think Rea makes mention of it, that estrogen should be reduced w/ an AI during the back half of the cycle because it makes your PCT more effective.

    Plus you are going to use a larger dose of DBol to get the effect going quickly. I'd run an AI along side DBol.

    Slightly off topic but still relevant...it is important to keep in mind what Skye, a very knowledgeable bro emphasized in a post here about a year ago:

    The full actions of hormones are not instantaneous. For instance the effects of dbol start pretty much the same week you start it. But the full effect takes about 2 weeks. Given dbol’s half life the build up takes only one day. The rest of the time is simple the amount of time it takes your body to start responding and for the effects of drug to become noticeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    but is primo strong enough to yield anything when used as the sole anabolic compound for such a short time? (along with the test of course)?
    I think it would not be very effective by itself and would add little to testosterone. But huge amounts of Primo w/ test might be effective as the Primo would then have a greater effect at altering the anabolic/androgen ratio.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    I used this approach because I noticed I make most of my gains w/in the first two weeks of cycles (or in the beginning after my compound of choice kicks in). I believe that's because your body has the combination of endogenous hormones + external sources (anabolic steroids).
    But you spent some time dieting (or priming) before your cycle as well. This probably had a big impact on creating quick growth don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    After a week or two, your testosterone drops dramatically...
    Yes I agree I've run testosterone for a 14 day cycle and felt that if I had reduced it to 10 days (so it would all be out of my system within 2 weeks that I might not have needed a PCT. As it was my HPTA w/ a PCT bounced back quickly from the 14 day cycle. Gains were only just enough to break a plateau and little more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    What would happen if you lowered your dosage of test in the middle of a cycle? You would certainly not put on LBM like before, correct?
    For me this is not a certainty. I've been above 2 grams before for a period of time in a long cycle and tapered back to 1.5g, 1g and finally 750mg where I continued on for 5 more weeks of continued gains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    I ran a pretty crafty schedule for SERMs and AIs as well utilizing both arimidex and tamoxifen.
    Oh yeah? Did you run Adex & Nolva throughout the cycle? Please elaborate...because you say you normally get shutdown hard, yet you ran tren at the back half of your second cycle (which often makes PCT harder for a lot of guys) and still you recovered nicely. Very good...because tren is a good solidifier of gains so if you got some crafty recovery tricks please share bro.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    But you spent some time dieting (or priming) before your cycle as well. This probably had a big impact on creating quick growth don't you think?
    Yeah I believe it had a lot to do with my gains. At the time I had no idea about priming, only that it had been roughly several days of midterms and my eating schedule was out of whack! After midterms I started eating...even making myself believe I was making gains by consuming that extra meal. I was just very hyped about my upcoming cycle and within a week I started. Needless to say, food was the most expensive part of this cycle.


    For me this is not a certainty. I've been above 2 grams before for a period of time in a long cycle and tapered back to 1.5g, 1g and finally 750mg where I continued on for 5 more weeks of continued gains.
    That's good to know. An experienced vet told me to blast my receptors early in the cycle w/ high doses and taper down towards the end because while "ON" those receptors continuously get smaller. I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate but it was well worth trying, though I didn't really taper my dosage.

    I personally have only taken about 820 mg. of test a week (propionate), but its good to know that u made gains while reducing your dosage. Do you think that maybe 1.5g was in excess and was being wasted, and that your body was only able to use 750mg - 1000mg? Just a thought.


    Oh yeah? Did you run Adex & Nolva throughout the cycle? Please elaborate...because you say you normally get shutdown hard, yet you ran tren at the back half of your second cycle (which often makes post cycle therapy harder for a lot of guys) and still you recovered nicely. Very good...because tren is a good solidifier of gains so if you got some crafty recovery tricks please share bro.
    I was looking to make some good gains w/ the tren cycle and most of my reading indicated that this compound should be used w/ an aromitizing compound. On another note, I was afraid of getting gyno. The thought of DBOL & Tren made my nipples sore and deca & tren (advised by that football player for awesome gains) didn't sound great to me either.

    This is what I planned:

    I figured w/ DBOL & TEST I would still have a bunch of circulating estrogen in my body which would be beneficial to the tren cycle, so I only used 10mg of tamoxifen (no adex) for the last 1.5 weeks of this cycle. I bumped it up to 40 for 3 days, 20mg for 5 days, and 10mg for another 5 days or so.

    For the tren cycle i wanted some estrogen float'n around for greater mass gains but didn't want any circulating at the end of my cycle. So I started using 0.25mg of arimidex eod starting week3. During PCT I bumped it to .5 ed for 2 days, then .25 ed for 3-4 days, then 2x .25 eod, 1x 3 days later, end finally 4 days later.

    I used tamoxifen @ 10mg ed when I used Adex eod, when adex was finished I bumped it to 20mg for several days and tapered down finishing at 10mg eod - for 3 days. I did this because I was afraid there would be a rebound of estrogen formation due to suppression with arimidex.

    ***for PCT I also used high doses of Tribulus (60% saponins), ZMA, Magnesium, Ashwaganda (makes your nuts swell back to size), and oh yeah, still looked at girls like I wanted to destroy them in bed (especially my new gf at the time) just to spike some extra test in my system.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    Yeah I believe it had a lot to do with my gains. At the time I had no idea about priming, only that it had been roughly several days of midterms and my eating schedule was out of whack! After midterms I started eating...even making myself believe I was making gains by consuming that extra meal. I was just very hyped about my upcoming cycle and within a week I started. Needless to say, food was the most expensive part of this cycle.




    That's good to know. An experienced vet told me to blast my receptors early in the cycle w/ high doses and taper down towards the end because while "ON" those receptors continuously get smaller. I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate but it was well worth trying, though I didn't really taper my dosage.

    I personally have only taken about 820 mg. of test a week (propionate), but its good to know that u made gains while reducing your dosage. Do you think that maybe 1.5g was in excess and was being wasted, and that your body was only able to use 750mg - 1000mg? Just a thought.




    I was looking to make some good gains w/ the tren cycle and most of my reading indicated that this compound should be used w/ an aromitizing compound. On another note, I was afraid of getting gyno. The thought of DBOL & Tren made my nipples sore and deca & tren (advised by that football player for awesome gains) didn't sound great to me either.

    This is what I planned:

    I figured w/ DBOL & TEST I would still have a bunch of circulating estrogen in my body which would be beneficial to the tren cycle, so I only used 10mg of tamoxifen (no adex) for the last 1.5 weeks of this cycle. I bumped it up to 40 for 3 days, 20mg for 5 days, and 10mg for another 5 days or so.

    For the tren cycle i wanted some estrogen float'n around for greater mass gains but didn't want any circulating at the end of my cycle. So I started using 0.25mg of arimidex eod starting week3. During post cycle therapy I bumped it to .5 ed for 2 days, then .25 ed for 3-4 days, then 2x .25 eod, 1x 3 days later, end finally 4 days later.

    I used tamoxifen @ 10mg ed when I used Adex eod, when adex was finished I bumped it to 20mg for several days and tapered down finishing at 10mg eod - for 3 days. I did this because I was afraid there would be a rebound of estrogen formation due to suppression with arimidex.

    ***for PCT I also used high doses of Tribulus (60% saponins), ZMA, Magnesium, Ashwaganda (makes your nuts swell back to size), and oh yeah, still looked at girls like I wanted to destroy them in bed (especially my new gf at the time) just to spike some extra test in my system.
    I like that very thought out use of the AI with the SERM. I think that is what gave you such an easy time recovering. The more you can artificially create a 'balance' of some sort within the HPTA the easier it seems on the side effects and esp on recovery. (from my personal observation and many others').

    since you claim (for yourself at least) that the 2 ish week mark is when you start to shut down hard.... in addition to your estrogen control, do you think a shot of 500IU or two shots at 250IU of a little HCG would also help with recovery? Personally I wouldn't cycle without HCG (but this is also referring to longer cylces)

  16. ... i think the idea of primo is too mild. its on the table, but other compounds would make better use of our timespan. I think that I would run this plan with dbol+AI. unless NPP could be obtained... I just wouldnt want to end the cycle feeling bloated up. in fact. I would probably consider using the AI the entire cycle (unless it seems not needed due to the tren).

    for conversation sake (I know we arent a huge fan of designers here) but let's consider epistane. what if epistane (something of an AI in lesser doses) was run at 10mg ED starting after week 1 of the cycle. then...when tren is dropped the epi can be bumped up to maybe 50mg (or higher for those who tolerate it too well) and by this point it has already built up in the system (ph's take longer to do this sometimes). Also epi's anabolic: androgenic ratio is something like 1100% : 91% and because of its AI nature it may not require us to incorporate one in the last bit of the cycle....

  17. The Epi idea is really intriguing. I would also like to hear some more thoughts on that idea.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by drewh10987 View Post
    The Epi idea is really intriguing. I would also like to hear some more thoughts on that idea.
    thanks man. Yea I'd like to see the other guys' opinions on it too.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ... i think the idea of primo is too mild. its on the table, but other compounds would make better use of our timespan. I think that I would run this plan with dbl+AI. unless NP could be obtained... I just wouldn't want to end the cycle feeling bloated up. in fact. I would probably consider using the AI the entire cycle (unless it seems not needed due to the tren).

    for conversation sake (I know we aren't a huge fan of designers here) but let's consider epistane. what if epistane (something of an AI in lesser doses) was run at 10mg ED starting after week 1 of the cycle. then...when tren is dropped the epi can be bumped up to maybe 50mg (or higher for those who tolerate it too well) and by this point it has already built up in the system (ph's take longer to do this sometimes). Also epi's anabolic: androgenic ratio is something like 1100% : 91% and because of its AI nature it may not require us to incorporate one in the last bit of the cycle....
    I just wanted to say,this is a great thread Pudz.Dat,your input
    truly shows your dedication to the sport.
    Yes, since NPP isn't that obtainable,and cycling down the tren
    as you mentioned,I'm curious about EPI as well.I agree with you on the moon face water bloat sides w/d-bol,plus,my BP shoots though the roof on it.
    I know that Turin(Halo+clones) was mentioned earlier,and my question is,would these milder compounds negate the purposes of these kinds of cycles?Or possibly Anavar?

  20. Wow, Great read! I'm subbed!!

  21. Quote Originally Posted by FX01 View Post
    I just wanted to say,this is a great thread Pudz.Dat,your input
    truly shows your dedication to the sport.
    Yes, since NPP isn't that obtainable,and cycling down the tren
    as you mentioned,I'm curious about EPI as well.I agree with you on the moon face water bloat sides w/d-bol,plus,my BP shoots though the roof on it.
    I know that Turin(Halo+clones) was mentioned earlier,and my question is,would these milder compounds negate the purposes of these kinds of cycles?Or possibly Anavar?
    thank you for the kind words man. It is just hard to say what the effects of something like turinabol/halo clones truly add instead of not using them altogether. I think that halo would be out for me. During this anabolic dominance period we want to keep the side effects to a minimum. (which is why an alternative to dbol could be good for some) halo tends to be bad on the lipids, and in higher doses, probably notably more liver toxic than taking say, 50mg of epistane. personally (from experience) epistane works very well and I have to really try for it to shut me down hard if at all. so considering its very anabolic nature, AI properties, lack of severe HPTA suppression, mild liver toxicity (for an oral), and mild effects on other systems, it would seem very favorable for a situation like this. now, of course this seems well on paper....but I wonder if it will work well with the cycle idea.

    it is also more easily obtained...and its AI benefits at 10mg-low dose- taken through the cycle could negate the use of a synthetic AI like arimidex/aromasin/letrozole etc. If one is still sensitive to bloat and other estro sides from high doses of test, then in addition to the epistane, something like dermacrine sustain and some trans-reserveratrol could be added to the cycle naturally to keep things in check (as mentioned earlier I think)

  22. Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    thank you for the kind words man. It is just hard to say what the effects of something like turinabol/halo clones truly add instead of not using them altogether. I think that halo would be out for me. During this anabolic dominance period we want to keep the side effects to a minimum. (which is why an alternative to dbol could be good for some) halo tends to be bad on the lipids, and in higher doses, probably notably more liver toxic than taking say, 50mg of epistane. personally (from experience) epistane works very well and I have to really try for it to shut me down hard if at all. so considering its very anabolic nature, AI properties, lack of severe HPTA suppression, mild liver toxicity (for an oral), and mild effects on other systems, it would seem very favorable for a situation like this. now, of course this seems well on paper....but I wonder if it will work well with the cycle idea.

    it is also more easily obtained...and its AI benefits at 10mg-low dose- taken through the cycle could negate the use of a synthetic AI like arimidex/aromasin/letrozole etc. If one is still sensitive to bloat and other estro sides from high doses of test, then in addition to the epistane, something like dermacrine sustain and some trans-reserveratrol could be added to the cycle naturally to keep things in check (as mentioned earlier I think)
    Thats what it's all about,speaking of EPI,and the others..Everyone reacts differently to each and every compound.This definitly takes on a different aproach(using d-bol)at the end of a cycle, as opposed to the typical cycle.When you really think about it,this cyling approach may not give you the fastest gains,but if done properly,they can yield good keepable gains in the long term.Feasibly,one could run maybe 6-8 minny cycles through 1 years time,and put on just as much lean mass as compared to a typical cycle,without the crash.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    since you claim (for yourself at least) that the 2 ish week mark is when you start to shut down hard.... in addition to your estrogen control, do you think a shot of 500IU or two shots at 250IU of a little HCG would also help with recovery? Personally I wouldn't cycle without HCG (but this is also referring to longer cylces)
    I'm pretty sure it would, but I'll probably not do a cycle like that for a long time. I'm 25 (26 in a couple of weeks) and wonder the repercussions of stacking everything right now. What kind of cycle would I have to do in 10 years just to keep up? Besides, a burst cycle is set up so you would recover faster anyways. I'd leave the HCG to the longer cycles.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post

    since you claim (for yourself at least) that the 2 ish week mark is when you start to shut down hard....
    Just wanted to clear some things up...I'm sure I still produce a bit of test, but after the two week mark I always notice significant testicular atrophy. Luckily they always bounce back!

  25. Quote Originally Posted by FX01 View Post
    Thats what it's all about,speaking of EPI,and the others..Everyone reacts differently to each and every compound.This definitly takes on a different aproach(using d-bol)at the end of a cycle, as opposed to the typical cycle.When you really think about it,this cyling approach may not give you the fastest gains,but if done properly,they can yield good keepable gains in the long term.Feasibly,one could run maybe 6-8 minny cycles through 1 years time,and put on just as much lean mass as compared to a typical cycle,without the crash.
    well actually. this method is designed to yield all/most of the benefits of longer cycles, without all of the side effects and hastle. Just because people started using gear for longer periods of time thinking it would work better, and this has become the "norm", doesnt mean that it is the safest or most efficient. We are talking about hormones here. Just like anything else, the body regulates its own hormones and WILL result in homeostatic equilibrium.

    in simple terms, the less time ON, the the less risk of long term sides such as liver stress, lipid changes, decreased fertility etc.

    LIke many have noticed, most gains come very soon after the compounds have kicked in (so very early in the cycle)....if they were to continue at that rate then I assure people could go on gear for 20 weeks expecting to gain more and more weight. When you hear back from many of these people (myself having the same prior experiences), they dont have a whole lot more gains then they did from their initial few weeks. yes, maybe staying on can help solidify and sculpt the gains, but at the expense of all of those other side effects that result from longer time periods of androgen replacement?

    in fact, the interest here is to use much LESS gear during the year. These gains should be much more maintainable. ok so it seems great on paper right? maybe it wont workout so flawlessly? BUT the science is there, so if primed, ready, focused, organized, etc. then Im sure most if not all of what has been discussed will apply. I think that these little burst cycles can be more infrequent and only done when a natural plateau is reached. Considering its rather easy to do a 4 week cycle with full intensity etc, and then recover easily, keep training and then when ya hit a wall, run another. I mean it sure beats feeling so run down after a long cycle, and trying to train past full intensity for 20 weeks. The body gets tired (joints, organs, drive etc).Of course bloodowork can really assure that you are recovering as well as projected, and if not then the strategies can be tweaked.

    for some, this idea may not be favorable. But I believe that for someone like me, it would be. And that is why this discussion continues; Because this thread is attracting people who are also interested in a different method of using gear.

    someone may need 6-8, someone else may only need 3-4. It depends on the individual and their goals. The cool thing is, that this makes it much easier to plan for a contest, this way you dont have use even more gear just to be ON while entering a contest (assuming its not tested). There is also some non scientific credibility to this method from observing successful professionals who follow admit to using similar protocols, such as dorian yates, lee priest etc.


    the issue about stacking 'all these things' at once doesn't make sense to me. I mean say we just use hormones (steroids), and follow the test, tren, epi protocol above. that is 3 compounds working in synergy with each other for 3-4 short weeks. the only thing is they are in higher doses. BUT these doses arent ridiculously high. I dont think its about having to stack more and more, I think its about careful planning and choosing compounds that are synergistic. the addition of insulin or slin+igf-1+(gh booster like pGH) could add a few lbs LBM and also add their benefits to the physique and cycle. all of those things function on a different spectrum than the HPTA that is being influenced by the AA steroids, and its not like we are combining 6 AA steroids.

  26. I must admit this makes a heck of a lot of sense to me! I have watched many Epistane / Epi cycles to see that most (usually, not a hard and fast rule) experience as you say the majority of the gains in the short period just after starting cycle.

    I must truly admit I am no guru of anything really but sometimes I do notice the obvious , for instance the bodies natural hormones throughout the days and weeks fluctuate like biorhythm's etc so this, for me, makes pulsing etc logical.

    Not to take this thread off track but can you guys help answer:

    1. Why is it apparently so important to get the blood level of the actives stable and constant? I have heard a few people say that you need to get a steady dosing in to make it work best. This is opposite to my great experience with pulsing. Obviously controlling any kind of estrogen rollercoaster is important.

    2. What is Tren Ace and is it an injectable? Why does it have to be part of this stack?

    I really like the idea of doing a cycle with Test and Epistane. My Dr. would be open to my requests I believe, which is the best Test to use for this purpose? I see most use Cyp or Enan.

    Thanks and awesome thread, a very enjoyable read all of you guys.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    1. Why is it apparently so important to get the blood level of the actives stable and constant? I have heard a few people say that you need to get a steady dosing in to make it work best. This is opposite to my great experience with pulsing. Obviously controlling any kind of estrogen rollercoaster is important.
    Actually Bobo adressed that here a few years ago and he argued that it didn't matter that much because you can't control when anabolism will occur. I wish I could find it but Bobo has changed his name so it is hard to find his old posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    2. What is Tren Ace and is it an injectable?
    Tren Ace is short for Trenbolone Acetate. To quote Bill Roberts "Trenbolone is a steroid having the advantages of undergoing no adverse metabolism, not being affected by aromatase or 5alpha-reductase; of being very potent Class I steroid binding well to the androgen receptor; and having a short half life, probably no more than a day or two..."

    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    Why does it have to be part of this stack?
    It doesn't. It is just a very strong androgen. I myself prefer not to use it and would opt for testosterone. The goal was to make the front part of the cycle more androgenic and the back part more anabolic so that is the framework for discussion of compounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    ...which is the best Test to use for this purpose? I see most use Cyp or Enan.
    Testosterone propionate has the advantage of building up quicker & clearing quicker. But that means more frequent shots. Testosterone Cypionate and Enanthate take longer to build up & to clear...so if they are used it must be upfront (perhaps frontloaded as well) and discontinued 2 and 2.5 weeks before the cycle ends. Test prop could be continued till the end.
  28. Arrow


    Here is a thread started by Size back in 2004 titled "Short cycles, some thoughts" Short cycles, some thoughts It continued for 6 pages and concluded in 2006.

    If you guys have the time it makes for interesting reading.

    I really really enjoyed reading the article posted by Size in the 10th post. It was an article writen by MuscleTrainee in 2002 describing exactly how the Europeans run short and frequent cycles to great effect. It is interesting that it covers a lot of what we talked about and then adds a lot more...it is a long read but well worth it if you have the time. Maybe even print it out and read it at your convienence.
  29. Thumbs up


    Quote Originally Posted by FX01 View Post
    ...this cyling approach may not give you the fastest gains,but if done properly,they can yield good keepable gains in the long term.Feasibly,one could run maybe 6-8 minny cycles through 1 years time,and put on just as much lean mass as compared to a typical cycle,without the crash.
    That is exactly how it has traditionally been done. You are spot on with that insight.

    Check out the article posted by Size in a thread here on short-cyles started years ago. Short cycles, some thoughts It was written in 2002 by a European and he describes how they run a series of mini-cycles throughout the year, which compounds and why (they liked tren and he explains why they don't use test much). Very good read.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Here is a thread started by Size back in 2004 titled "Short cycles, some thoughts" Short cycles, some thoughts It continued for 6 pages and concluded in 2006.

    If you guys have the time it makes for interesting reading.

    I really really enjoyed reading the article posted by Size in the 10th post. It was an article writen by MuscleTrainee in 2002 describing exactly how the Europeans run short and frequent cycles to great effect. It is interesting that it covers a lot of what we talked about and then adds a lot more...it is a long read but well worth it if you have the time. Maybe even print it out and read it at your convienence.
    thanks for the link man! what is your opinion on the epistane discussion above>?
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