- 02-05-2008, 11:45 PM
I'm no scientist making these statements, but I do shut down pretty hard & fast. This is why I used this approach and I got this idea from another site.
The first one is as Rea recommends (i.e. closing w/ an anabolic) but the second closes w/ an even heavier androgen.
But you recovered well right? So maybe closing w/ the anabolic is really only beneficial to those that based on prior cycle history have a hard time keeping gains & recovering. For all others closing w/ an androgen might be okay (perhaps even preferential).
I was also convinced that running this cycle just to merely hold onto the weight gain would be beneficial. It's not natural to put on a great amount of weight in 4 weeks. Luckily, I added even more weight w/ this run. Also, a football player from USC told me that of all the s#it him and his buddies took, Tren was the best for keeping gains.
I ran a pretty crafty schedule for SERMs and AIs as well utilizing both arimidex and tamoxifen.
- 02-06-2008, 03:46 AM
Plus you are going to use a larger dose of DBol to get the effect going quickly. I'd run an AI along side DBol.
Slightly off topic but still relevant...it is important to keep in mind what Skye, a very knowledgeable bro emphasized in a post here about a year ago:
The full actions of hormones are not instantaneous. For instance the effects of dbol start pretty much the same week you start it. But the full effect takes about 2 weeks. Given dbol’s half life the build up takes only one day. The rest of the time is simple the amount of time it takes your body to start responding and for the effects of drug to become noticeable.
- 02-06-2008, 04:05 AM
02-06-2008, 09:08 AM
That's good to know. An experienced vet told me to blast my receptors early in the cycle w/ high doses and taper down towards the end because while "ON" those receptors continuously get smaller. I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate but it was well worth trying, though I didn't really taper my dosage.For me this is not a certainty. I've been above 2 grams before for a period of time in a long cycle and tapered back to 1.5g, 1g and finally 750mg where I continued on for 5 more weeks of continued gains.
I personally have only taken about 820 mg. of test a week (propionate), but its good to know that u made gains while reducing your dosage. Do you think that maybe 1.5g was in excess and was being wasted, and that your body was only able to use 750mg - 1000mg? Just a thought.
I was looking to make some good gains w/ the tren cycle and most of my reading indicated that this compound should be used w/ an aromitizing compound. On another note, I was afraid of getting gyno. The thought of DBOL & Tren made my nipples sore and deca & tren (advised by that football player for awesome gains) didn't sound great to me either.Oh yeah? Did you run Adex & Nolva throughout the cycle? Please elaborate...because you say you normally get shutdown hard, yet you ran tren at the back half of your second cycle (which often makes post cycle therapy harder for a lot of guys) and still you recovered nicely. Very good...because tren is a good solidifier of gains so if you got some crafty recovery tricks please share bro.
This is what I planned:
I figured w/ DBOL & TEST I would still have a bunch of circulating estrogen in my body which would be beneficial to the tren cycle, so I only used 10mg of tamoxifen (no adex) for the last 1.5 weeks of this cycle. I bumped it up to 40 for 3 days, 20mg for 5 days, and 10mg for another 5 days or so.
For the tren cycle i wanted some estrogen float'n around for greater mass gains but didn't want any circulating at the end of my cycle. So I started using 0.25mg of arimidex eod starting week3. During PCT I bumped it to .5 ed for 2 days, then .25 ed for 3-4 days, then 2x .25 eod, 1x 3 days later, end finally 4 days later.
I used tamoxifen @ 10mg ed when I used Adex eod, when adex was finished I bumped it to 20mg for several days and tapered down finishing at 10mg eod - for 3 days. I did this because I was afraid there would be a rebound of estrogen formation due to suppression with arimidex.
***for PCT I also used high doses of Tribulus (60% saponins), ZMA, Magnesium, Ashwaganda (makes your nuts swell back to size), and oh yeah, still looked at girls like I wanted to destroy them in bed (especially my new gf at the time) just to spike some extra test in my system.
02-06-2008, 03:40 PM
since you claim (for yourself at least) that the 2 ish week mark is when you start to shut down hard.... in addition to your estrogen control, do you think a shot of 500IU or two shots at 250IU of a little HCG would also help with recovery? Personally I wouldn't cycle without HCG (but this is also referring to longer cylces)
02-06-2008, 04:08 PM
... i think the idea of primo is too mild. its on the table, but other compounds would make better use of our timespan. I think that I would run this plan with dbol+AI. unless NPP could be obtained... I just wouldnt want to end the cycle feeling bloated up. in fact. I would probably consider using the AI the entire cycle (unless it seems not needed due to the tren).
for conversation sake (I know we arent a huge fan of designers here) but let's consider epistane. what if epistane (something of an AI in lesser doses) was run at 10mg ED starting after week 1 of the cycle. then...when tren is dropped the epi can be bumped up to maybe 50mg (or higher for those who tolerate it too well) and by this point it has already built up in the system (ph's take longer to do this sometimes). Also epi's anabolic: androgenic ratio is something like 1100% : 91% and because of its AI nature it may not require us to incorporate one in the last bit of the cycle....
02-06-2008, 04:34 PM
02-06-2008, 05:14 PM
02-06-2008, 05:57 PM
truly shows your dedication to the sport.
Yes, since NPP isn't that obtainable,and cycling down the tren
as you mentioned,I'm curious about EPI as well.I agree with you on the moon face water bloat sides w/d-bol,plus,my BP shoots though the roof on it.
I know that Turin(Halo+clones) was mentioned earlier,and my question is,would these milder compounds negate the purposes of these kinds of cycles?Or possibly Anavar?
02-06-2008, 06:12 PM
02-06-2008, 08:30 PM
it is also more easily obtained...and its AI benefits at 10mg-low dose- taken through the cycle could negate the use of a synthetic AI like arimidex/aromasin/letrozole etc. If one is still sensitive to bloat and other estro sides from high doses of test, then in addition to the epistane, something like dermacrine sustain and some trans-reserveratrol could be added to the cycle naturally to keep things in check (as mentioned earlier I think)
02-06-2008, 09:16 PM
02-06-2008, 10:19 PM
02-06-2008, 10:24 PM
02-06-2008, 11:09 PM
in simple terms, the less time ON, the the less risk of long term sides such as liver stress, lipid changes, decreased fertility etc.
LIke many have noticed, most gains come very soon after the compounds have kicked in (so very early in the cycle)....if they were to continue at that rate then I assure people could go on gear for 20 weeks expecting to gain more and more weight. When you hear back from many of these people (myself having the same prior experiences), they dont have a whole lot more gains then they did from their initial few weeks. yes, maybe staying on can help solidify and sculpt the gains, but at the expense of all of those other side effects that result from longer time periods of androgen replacement?
in fact, the interest here is to use much LESS gear during the year. These gains should be much more maintainable. ok so it seems great on paper right? maybe it wont workout so flawlessly? BUT the science is there, so if primed, ready, focused, organized, etc. then Im sure most if not all of what has been discussed will apply. I think that these little burst cycles can be more infrequent and only done when a natural plateau is reached. Considering its rather easy to do a 4 week cycle with full intensity etc, and then recover easily, keep training and then when ya hit a wall, run another. I mean it sure beats feeling so run down after a long cycle, and trying to train past full intensity for 20 weeks. The body gets tired (joints, organs, drive etc).Of course bloodowork can really assure that you are recovering as well as projected, and if not then the strategies can be tweaked.
for some, this idea may not be favorable. But I believe that for someone like me, it would be. And that is why this discussion continues; Because this thread is attracting people who are also interested in a different method of using gear.
someone may need 6-8, someone else may only need 3-4. It depends on the individual and their goals. The cool thing is, that this makes it much easier to plan for a contest, this way you dont have use even more gear just to be ON while entering a contest (assuming its not tested). There is also some non scientific credibility to this method from observing successful professionals who follow admit to using similar protocols, such as dorian yates, lee priest etc.
the issue about stacking 'all these things' at once doesn't make sense to me. I mean say we just use hormones (steroids), and follow the test, tren, epi protocol above. that is 3 compounds working in synergy with each other for 3-4 short weeks. the only thing is they are in higher doses. BUT these doses arent ridiculously high. I dont think its about having to stack more and more, I think its about careful planning and choosing compounds that are synergistic. the addition of insulin or slin+igf-1+(gh booster like pGH) could add a few lbs LBM and also add their benefits to the physique and cycle. all of those things function on a different spectrum than the HPTA that is being influenced by the AA steroids, and its not like we are combining 6 AA steroids.
02-07-2008, 05:41 AM
I must admit this makes a heck of a lot of sense to me! I have watched many Epistane / Epi cycles to see that most (usually, not a hard and fast rule) experience as you say the majority of the gains in the short period just after starting cycle.
I must truly admit I am no guru of anything really but sometimes I do notice the obvious , for instance the bodies natural hormones throughout the days and weeks fluctuate like biorhythm's etc so this, for me, makes pulsing etc logical.
Not to take this thread off track but can you guys help answer:
1. Why is it apparently so important to get the blood level of the actives stable and constant? I have heard a few people say that you need to get a steady dosing in to make it work best. This is opposite to my great experience with pulsing. Obviously controlling any kind of estrogen rollercoaster is important.
2. What is Tren Ace and is it an injectable? Why does it have to be part of this stack?
I really like the idea of doing a cycle with Test and Epistane. My Dr. would be open to my requests I believe, which is the best Test to use for this purpose? I see most use Cyp or Enan.
Thanks and awesome thread, a very enjoyable read all of you guys.
02-07-2008, 06:57 AM
02-07-2008, 07:21 AM
Here is a thread started by Size back in 2004 titled "Short cycles, some thoughts" Short cycles, some thoughts It continued for 6 pages and concluded in 2006.
If you guys have the time it makes for interesting reading.
I really really enjoyed reading the article posted by Size in the 10th post. It was an article writen by MuscleTrainee in 2002 describing exactly how the Europeans run short and frequent cycles to great effect. It is interesting that it covers a lot of what we talked about and then adds a lot more...it is a long read but well worth it if you have the time. Maybe even print it out and read it at your convienence.
02-07-2008, 07:28 AM
Check out the article posted by Size in a thread here on short-cyles started years ago. Short cycles, some thoughts It was written in 2002 by a European and he describes how they run a series of mini-cycles throughout the year, which compounds and why (they liked tren and he explains why they don't use test much). Very good read.
02-07-2008, 09:39 AM
02-07-2008, 05:32 PM
compounds per cycle) and then switching to others on the next run would keep the gains comming.The body grows,but before total adaptation, there's the time off cycle,and then it's fed a different compound(or compounds), and future growth begins (Within many parameters such as genetics,protein absorption ratios,etc.)
I kinda see it as having your cake and eating it too.
We now have DR D's pulse methods, these short blast/minies, and the traditional 10-12 week protocol,pretty cool stuff!
02-07-2008, 05:50 PM
So many people talk about the harsh sides from fina,but I never had them.The only thing I ever felt was unreal strength,a great sense of well being,and a constant woody.
02-07-2008, 06:44 PM
02-07-2008, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the answers guys.
If you were able to talk to a Dr. to ask for what you wanted in a blast cycle, what products would you ask for and how much total for a cycle.
I am going to see in the future if my Dr. will let me do my own injections as well.
02-07-2008, 07:11 PM
test prop: 1000mg/week
Tren Ace(first 75% of cycle): 100-125mg ED (probably 100mg)
Epistane: first 75% of cycle:10mg ED, last 25% of cycle: 50-60mg ED
humalog: 10IU PWO
IGF-1: 10mcg PWO or 20mcg EOD
pGH: max dose (if multiple shots, 1 shot PWO)
this cycle may be a little dry. but if we keep a synthetic AI out, then the epi should help control estro to the point where any other hopefully will be used by joints.
if I bloat/get gyn symptoms I will have aromasin and SERMS on hand but probably try trans-reserveratrol and dermacrine sustain as a first resort
anyone think that I am at serious hypoglycemia risk? any suggestions if so>?
02-07-2008, 07:33 PM
02-07-2008, 09:03 PM
I do not think that changing the compounds just because we use them in a prior cycle is necessary. I mean, if they werent strong enough, or the cycle didnt go as planned, or you didnt react well then I could see changing them (or just wanting to experiment with something else) But if it works the first time, then I see no NEED to change them for the second run.
02-08-2008, 03:04 AM
However Growth Hormone (GH) has the opposite effect. It reduces the blood sugar drop that comes with insulin use (if they are taken at the same time). In fact you'll find you need fewer carbs if GH & slin are taken together than w/ slin alone.
I don't know what pGH is...can you elaborate on it?
02-08-2008, 09:51 AM
02-08-2008, 12:59 PM
Of course I would talk in depth with an Endo.
Would an Endo / Dr. prescribe the shopping list you just gave?
02-08-2008, 01:07 PM
Hey pudzian, have you ever used pGH before? If so, how did you like it? Is it legal? I read the thread you linked and it seems very interesting. Some of the guys said it use to be legally available through a former board sponsor, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.
02-08-2008, 01:07 PM
02-08-2008, 02:57 PM
02-08-2008, 08:39 PM
Slin/igf-1 use was 8/10.
02-08-2008, 08:43 PM
The compound is legal. It isn't even grey area...it is straight up legal. However the method of delivery can not be advertised/sold as an injectable for humans.
So transdermal formulas are okay and sterile injectable is okay to buy for oral consumption (oral consumption is ineffective so it would be up to the user to make the decision on injecting it).
02-09-2008, 04:23 AM
02-09-2008, 11:58 AM
02-10-2008, 03:20 AM
02-10-2008, 11:03 AM
read a few pages back it explains all the theories.
02-16-2008, 05:02 AM
Just an interesting (at least to me) thought.
Patrick Arnold mentioned a method for reducing the androgenicity of testosterone for use by women. The method was simply the use of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor.
Now this would change the androgen/anabolic ratio of testosterone greatly in favor of anabolism. So if one wanted to adhere to Rea's protocol of running androgens in the first part of a short cycle and anabolics in the second part, one could just use testosterone throughout the entire cycle BUT add in a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor during the second part of the cycle to make that part more anabolic.
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