Oldskool BB'ers and Roids????

[srx600]

I was curious as to why all the old skool BBers who did roids have little to no PCT and were able to keep gains and not end up with gyno. It seems that everyone is complaining of gyno these days, even with PCT. What am I not seeing?

 

[endless]

I can tell you from experience I had gyno and never knew what it was. My nips ached liked a toothache. This was early 80's and we never heard of pct. We did use hcg after a cycle but no nolva ect. But I can also add that my gyno went away 100% when I was off cycle. I had lumps like the size of the end of my little finger. Every single time they went away. I guess I am lucky. The only thing is that I tend to add fat to my lower chest area easily if I get laxed on my diet.

 

[nycste]

stuff back then might have been more pure?

i have no idea but i ask myself this daily tooo... if they really were using all this gear and lacked the proper PCTs of todays day then why dont they all have boobs and stuff... and bald heads etc.

 

[RoadBlocK]

Are you talkin pros or average joes?

Some older users do have some of the problems you wrote about, and others that you didnt. Some older guys I have know have horrible skin on their back, like cottage cheese from severe acne flareups, theres the ones with high bp and real thin hair and a host of other problems. In the old days some did use hcg after, and nolva or clomid, or cyclofenil while on cycle to try to combat gyno, and dont forgot the cycles today(generalizing) are alot higher dosages than what was used and written about in the early steroid guides by the gurus. Also, the pyramid cycle or the tapering off method was used alot where the drugs werent stopped cold turkey, they were tapered down slowly, I guess in hopes that the body would slowly return to a normal state gradually. And lets not forget about gyno surgery, 20 years ago was this even available, look at any plastic surgeon today and chances are they are more than willing to perform it. This main stream procedure had to come from some kind of a need or demand. Dont get me wrong, Im not 100% sold on the whole pct thing, I think there are some things that are helpful and some things that are just money makers, but I have yet to figure out which is which.

 

[HARDtotheCORE]

Are you talkin pros or average joes?

Some older users do have some of the problems you wrote about, and others that you didnt. Some older guys I have know have horrible skin on their back, like cottage cheese from severe acne flareups, theres the ones with high bp and real thin hair and a host of other problems. In the old days some did use hcg after, and nolva or clomid, or cyclofenil while on cycle to try to combat gyno, and dont forgot the cycles today(generalizing) are alot higher dosages than what was used and written about in the early steroid guides by the gurus. Also, the pyramid cycle or the tapering off method was used alot where the drugs werent stopped cold turkey, they were tapered down slowly, I guess in hopes that the body would slowly return to a normal state gradually. And lets not forget about gyno surgery, 20 years ago was this even available, look at any plastic surgeon today and chances are they are more than willing to perform it. This main stream procedure had to come from some kind of a need or demand. Dont get me wrong, Im not 100% sold on the whole post cycle therapy thing, I think there are some things that are helpful and some things that are just money makers, but I have yet to figure out which is which.

I agree completely... some of the old school juicers i know who are now in their late 50s tell me that PCT is a total waste of time and it is only putting more stress on the body, they all suggest a gradual taper down, mixed with proper nutrition and training. As one of them put it, "why replace drugs with more drugs?" even though i feel its not that simple.... different way of looking at it. - HTTC

 

[nycste]

yea idk. i know for a fact that 90percent of PH and roid uses dont use any decent PCT... with 6oxo as being their best pct product.

most stores dont even know what SERMS are i ask them trust me i do i LOL inside when they are like huh what. and their walls are covered in PHs.

so is it really needed i sure as heck dont know. most feel it is.

who knows, keep this thread going !

 

[jtmOBX]

I think it really depends on the person and what you are running. Is its importance over hyped? I believe so.

 

[srx600]

Hype?

If it's overhype, then why do 90% of people on this forum start yelling SERM!, when someone doesn't have it listed in their PCT? Just found that peculiar.

 

[jtmOBX]

If it's overhype, then why do 90% of people on this forum start yelling SERM!, when someone doesn't have it listed in their post cycle therapy? Just found that peculiar.

Its become ingrained in the social aspect of many of these forums, plus some people like making others feel like fools when they can. Im not saying its not useful or practical but I believe the nolva/serm isnt completely necessary for every cycle.

Like I said every persons body is gonna behave a little different, with gyno and everything else. Telling people to take a serm is in essence telling them to play it "safe" so people dont come on here yelling about titties.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Everybodys different so here we err on the safe side and tell everybody they need a SERM. Better safe than sorry especially when ur talking to some new member with 2 posts a bottle of Superdrol and a bottle of 6-oxo and hes 6'2 170 pounds with 5 monhts of lifting experience and has no idea what hes getting into. Being firm lets them know it's serious.

 

[sfearl1]

Everybodys different so here we err on the safe side and tell everybody they need a SERM. Better safe than sorry especially when ur talking to some new member with 2 posts a bottle of Superdrol and a bottle of 6-oxo and hes 6'2 170 pounds with 5 monhts of lifting experience and has no idea what hes getting into. Being firm lets them know it's serious.

:goodpost:

 

[GeneticX]

I am well aware of the adverse effects, as well as the benefits derived from SERM use. With that being said, has anyone else experienced the particular side effect of ocular deterioration post SERM use. Upon cessation of my pct with toremifene, I noticed a drop in visual acuity, with signs of a toxic induced cataract state. If this should always be the case, then I must seek other alternatives in order to prevent this pathological manifestation from occurring again.

 

[srx600]

eye problem

was this just temporary?

 

[gotripped]

i've noticed ocular degradation with clomid particularly. it sucks.. i guess in order to have balls ya gotta go blind. my vision has progressively gotten worse due to this. not very bad but it went from 20/25 to now 20/40. my left eye is still 20/10 tho strangely. all i know is by the end of a cycle my nips are usually hurting. i take nolva and clomid. it goes away within a few days.

 

[thesinner]

I was curious as to why all the old skool BBers who did roids have little to no post cycle therapy and were able to keep gains and not end up with gyno. It seems that everyone is complaining of gyno these days, even with PCT. What am I not seeing?

How do you know this?

Are you basing this off actual information, or are you just looking at pictures of them from competitions and photoshoots and making up conclusions?

It sounds to me like what you're not seeing is everything that happens behind the scenes.

Post cycle therapy is not necessary....but neither is wiping your ass after taking a dump.

 

[GeneticX]

i've noticed ocular degradation with clomid particularly. it sucks.. i guess in order to have balls ya gotta go blind. my vision has progressively gotten worse due to this. not very bad but it went from 20/25 to now 20/40. my left eye is still 20/10 tho strangely. all i know is by the end of a cycle my nips are usually hurting. i take nolva and clomid. it goes away within a few days.

Yeah, that comes as no surprise. Clomid is especially a salient agent responsible for rendering the lens opaque. However, it appears as if Toremifene's effects are not innocuous to our vision either.Regardless, I'll probably try ralox next time, or forego a conventional pct altogether, by pulsing and using some over the counter products during my convalescence. It may be a risky proposition, and may undermine efforts at restoring optimal lipid values and hpta homeostasis;
notwithstanding, I use these products to increase performance for my athletic endeavors, rather than decrease effectiveness, which would evidently defeat the purpose. Fortunately, my sight has been progressively getting better as of late, and just to err on the side of caution, I've gone through the liberty of scheduling an appointment with an opthamologist to assess the ramifications from the torem use.

 

[sfearl1]

Yeah, that comes as no surprise. Clomid is especially a salient agent responsible for rendering the lens opaque. However, it appears as if Toremifene's effects are not innocuous to our vision either.Regardless, I'll probably try ralox next time, or forego a conventional post cycle therapy altogether, by pulsing and using some over the counter products during my convalescence. It may be a risky proposition, and may undermine efforts at restoring optimal lipid values and hpta homeostasis;
notwithstanding, I use these products to increase performance for my athletic endeavors, rather than decrease effectiveness, which would evidently defeat the purpose. Fortunately, my sight has been progressively getting better as of late, and just to err on the side of caution, I've gone through the liberty of scheduling an appointment with an opthamologist to assess the ramifications from the torem use.

keep us updated on the appt.

 

[GeneticX]

Will do

 

[sundevil22]

i dont know about most guys but i saw frank zane yesterday and it looked like he had gyno issues still

 

[pistonpump]

i think the taper helped them alot with not going thru PCT. You see cycles now days, nobody tapers. I think ill remember to do that next injectable cycle. Followed by a PCT of course.

 

[thesinner]

i think the taper helped them alot with not going thru post cycle therapy. You see cycles now days, nobody tapers. I think ill remember to do that next injectable cycle. Followed by a PCT of course.

I think the concept of a pyramid cycle died out with the sense that it's a waste of steroids to taper off, when proper PCT is available. When the body has grown accustomed to 1000mg of test per week, and you only give it 500mg, the body has to get used to a less suppressive dosage. Because serum concentrations of testosterone are still going to be high during the taper, recovery is going to be painfully slow since reaction rates are governed by concentration.

Dramatic drop in serum concentrations = dramatic recovery
Gradual decline in serum concentration = gradual recovery

Since pretty much everything over 250mg of test per week is enough to be suppressive, I don't quite see the point. But whatever.

 

[pistonpump]

I think the concept of a pyramid cycle died out with the sense that it's a waste of steroids to taper off, when proper post cycle therapy is available. When the body has grown accustomed to 1000mg of test per week, and you only give it 500mg, the body has to get used to a less suppressive dosage. Because serum concentrations of testosterone are still going to be high during the taper, recovery is going to be painfully slow since reaction rates are governed by concentration.

Dramatic drop in serum concentrations = dramatic recovery
Gradual decline in serum concentration = gradual recovery

Since pretty much everything over 250mg of test per week is enough to be suppressive, I don't quite see the point. But whatever.

i cant say i agree with you. How will you get a dramatic drop if you stop at 1g of test a week on your last week. Even if you PCT youll still be fighting that 1g test rather than fighting the drop to 50mg because you tapered down. Even with PCT started it wont be effective if test levels are still very high, hence the taper. Yes youll be suppressed even with 250mg but your body is getting used to lower test levels which youll have in PCT, IMO that will help you keep gains more because you. gradual decline in serum concentration can still yield dramatic/quick recovery if PCT is used, how will it not? I dont see how the same PCT would work slower to restore HPTA for a tapered cycle. But hey whatever, im just a high school grad.

 

[srx600]

pyrimids

The taper seems to make sense, but as someone said it would be less cost effective. You would have to use more steroids with a similar PCT. It would cost more, but you would probably keep more gains I would think. It would be like someone running a superdrol 10/20/20/30 then 20/10 or something. They would need to buy another bottle just for the taper. Would gains continue during the taper? You also have to consider the cycle being longer, which means less cycles per year; possibly another reason for not tapering.

 

[thesinner]

If by the time you start tapering you're 90% shut down, and you drop from 1g to 500mg, because this is still way over the baseline, it is only going to continue to shut you down, but at a slower rate.

Depending on the rate laws and reactions involved, gradually declining serum concentrations will allow recovery to be exponentially less effective than the current methods of post cycle therapy.

Do with it what you will. I'm just simply saying there's a reason why people don't do it that way anymore.

 

[pistonpump]

Depending on the rate laws and reactions involved, gradually declining serum concentrations will allow recovery to be exponentially less effective than the current methods of post cycle therapy.

im saying if you used the same methods of pct, how would it be less effective? It would be more effective i would think

 

[pistonpump]

Would gains continue during the taper? You also have to consider the cycle being longer, which means less cycles per year; possibly another reason for not tapering.

good points.

 

[thesinner]

im saying if you used the same methods of post cycle therapy, how would it be less effective? It would be more effective i would think

Are you planning on using your PCT ancillaries while you're trailing off?

 

[pistonpump]

Are you planning on using your post cycle therapy ancillaries while you're trailing off?

no i wouldnt. Just trail off for like 3-4 weeks or so. Im just thinking the body wouldnt like going from 1000mg test to less than 100mg(norm) test a week just like that. It would rather go 1000, 800, 600, 300, then less than 100mg(norm).

Oh well, kinda off topic now.

 

[Stavross]

i dont know about most guys but i saw frank zane yesterday and it looked like he had gyno issues still

Was he wearing a shirt?

The reason i ask is because i saw some recent pics of Dave Draper with a tee shirt on and he looked like he had some hefty boobs... Yet in his shirtless pics you can see it's clearly muscle, not gyno, which is just sagged a bit because of his age.

Almost makes me glad i've got paper thick pecs:blink: :blink:

 

[MuscleBound1337]

The older pros didn't have as much knowledge about PCT. They did what they thought was best.. they didn't know as much about the HPTA and how suppression worked. If you don't understand suppression tapering the dose would make sense. That's what doctors do today when they put you on corticosteroids.

Who's to say their method worked for them, does anyone know what there cycles looked like? Maybe they never went off cycle and just brought their test down to a maintenance lvl. I'm sure there hpta was blasted way more than any modern bodybuilder.

 

[thesinner]

Nice input leet. Haven't seen you on here for a while.

 

[MuscleBound1337]

Thanks sinner. Yeah I havn't been posting as much lately but i'm still around

 

[Irish Cannon]

I think a lot of the pros that still look good even after no post cycle therapy and abuse of the gear simply had good genetics. Guys that have good genetics for bodybuilding tend to not have many of the problems that the average joe would tend to have. I'm more prone to estrogen-related side effects, and find it completely necessary to have nolva on hand and do a strong PCT after a long, heavy cycle. I know plenty of guys that can easily get away without doing one. Luck of the draw I think.

Same with those bastards that you see that don't work half as hard as you do on their training or diet and are still bigger and look better than you. They were just made for it.

 

[TripDog]

I guess this was arnolds cycle.....nuts with the orals! http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Arnold Schwarzenegger cycle.html

 

[nycste]

The older pros didn't have as much knowledge about post cycle therapy. They did what they thought was best.. they didn't know as much about the HPTA and how suppression worked. If you don't understand suppression tapering the dose would make sense. That's what doctors do today when they put you on corticosteroids.

Who's to say their method worked for them, does anyone know what there cycles looked like? Maybe they never went off cycle and just brought their test down to a maintenance lvl. I'm sure there hpta was blasted way more than any modern bodybuilder.

who knows. i wish one of the older big dudes would layout their full usage somewhere and note as much as they could.

they shouldnt fear anything if they are in the sport anymore we all know your(all bbs) using anyways

 

[Irish Cannon]

I guess this was arnolds cycle.....nuts with the orals! http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Arnold Schwarzenegger cycle.html

That's pretty funny. The most decorated and legendary bodybuilder in history; imagine if someone posted this cycle up on this forum today and said that's what they were using - I think it would end up being the most criticized guy on AM.

 

[MuscleBound1337]

I know they used a lot more orals but looking at a cycle like that almost seems impossible, at least by todays standards. If somebody suggests something longer than 6 weeks on methyls (most of the time people say 4 wks) is irresponsible and you risk liver damage/hep.. Looking at the 'Arnold' cycle by todays standards looks like suicide.

 

[GeneticX]

Well cohorts in different eras, with different paradigms, I suppose. Although, Arnold does transcend time in bodybuilding, so I guess the aforementioned is probably a moot point.

Anyhow, nobody has addressed whether pulsing is a viable solution that can replace a fully loaded pct, while opting to take otc products as an alternative; in light of the rather minimal suppression after pulsing orals.

Also, if there are ocular side effects derived from toremifene use, does that mean that all SERM's will impair the vision of an already prone person?

I know that a clear clut, black and white solution is improbable, due to a myriad of variables, though, any experience with other serm's, such as raloxifene would be valued; this especially pertains to persons who were adversely affected by one serm, but not by another.

 

[gotripped]

here's an idea. stop being a pussy. run ur dbol for as long as ya want and take the risk. if ur liver goes to **** then ur genetics are poor. i ran my anadrol and dbol for 10 weeks. my liver is delectable.
it's all in what ur willing to risk and not be afraid to do.
that was just what they did.

 

[GeneticX]

here's an idea. stop being a pussy. run ur dbol for as long as ya want and take the risk. if ur liver goes to **** then ur genetics are poor. i ran my anadrol and dbol for 10 weeks. my liver is delectable.
it's all in what ur willing to risk and not be afraid to do.
that was just what they did.

Holy bad advice Batman! That is complete hogwash. I sincerely hope no green newb is led on a primrose path by this lunacy, and ends up in the process fu***** himself royally up. Your reasoning is beyond flawed. It's one thing to take calculated risks, weighing your risks and rewards with cost-benefit analysis, but it's completely another thing to throw caution to the wind by committing a kamikaze style of self destruction. We know better these days due to an increase in knowledge; past cohorts didn't have the luxury of possessing our info. Hence, we evolved, well at least some of us did. Why the hell do you think we live substantially longer now than in the past? Yet, keeping this in mind, you want people to actually regress instead of progress, by completely ignoring physiological warning signals, and committing self inflicted harm. Continuously degrading your sight and slowly torturing your liver aint good genetics in my book; on the other hand, having the cranial capacity to cogitate in a rational, pragmatic manner is indeed a genetic gift. This type of advice is exactly the misinformation that gives gear a bad name in the first place! The few lunatics that are completely reckless about their own affairs, and even suggest to others to follow suit as well. Hey, do as you wish, but please refrain from imparting this type of insidious advice onto others. And since we're doling out advice, here is mine to you: get yourself a good psychiatrist!

 

[RoboGiblets]

Holy bad advice Batman! That is complete hogwash. I sincerely hope no green newb is led on a primrose path by this lunacy, and ends up in the process fu***** himself royally up. Your reasoning is beyond flawed. It's one thing to take calculated risks, weighing your risks and rewards with cost-benefit analysis, but it's completely another thing to throw caution to the wind by committing a kamikaze style of self destruction. We know better these days due to an increase in knowledge; past cohorts didn't have the luxury of possessing our info. Hence, we evolved, well at least some of us did. Why the hell do you think we live substantially longer now than in the past? Yet, keeping this in mind, you want people to actually regress instead of progress, by completely ignoring physiological warning signals, and committing self inflicted harm. Continuously degrading your sight and slowly torturing your liver aint good genetics in my book; on the other hand, having the cranial capacity to cogitate in a rational, pragmatic manner is indeed a genetic gift. This type of advice is exactly the misinformation that gives gear a bad name in the first place! The few lunatics that are completely reckless about their own affairs, and even suggest to others to follow suit as well. Hey, do as you wish, but please refrain from imparting this type of insidious advice onto others. And since we're doling out advice, here is mine to you: get yourself a good psychiatrist!

I don't even think he was being serious.

The chances of someone running 10 weeks of anadrol AND dianabol simultaneously with no liver problems is absurd. I know 3-4 weeks of a-bombs have given friends of mine kidney pain like none other.

However, if he really has done that without any issue, then he is a lucky son of a *****. I strongly suggest a trip to the doctor for some blood tests. I'd *love* to see those results.

Edit: And the acne, oh man the acne. You must look hideous.

 

[gotripped]

Holy bad advice Batman! That is complete hogwash. I sincerely hope no green newb is led on a primrose path by this lunacy, and ends up in the process fu***** himself royally up. Your reasoning is beyond flawed. It's one thing to take calculated risks, weighing your risks and rewards with cost-benefit analysis, but it's completely another thing to throw caution to the wind by committing a kamikaze style of self destruction. We know better these days due to an increase in knowledge; past cohorts didn't have the luxury of possessing our info. Hence, we evolved, well at least some of us did. Why the hell do you think we live substantially longer now than in the past? Yet, keeping this in mind, you want people to actually regress instead of progress, by completely ignoring physiological warning signals, and committing self inflicted harm. Continuously degrading your sight and slowly torturing your liver aint good genetics in my book; on the other hand, having the cranial capacity to cogitate in a rational, pragmatic manner is indeed a genetic gift. This type of advice is exactly the misinformation that gives gear a bad name in the first place! The few lunatics that are completely reckless about their own affairs, and even suggest to others to follow suit as well. Hey, do as you wish, but please refrain from imparting this type of insidious advice onto others. And since we're doling out advice, here is mine to you: get yourself a good psychiatrist!

that may have come off as reckless but my actions are never
reckless. everything i do is methodical. i just push it to extremes and supplement as well as get blood work done. if ones body can't handle it then they simply can't do these cycles.

 

[gotripped]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/71560-grs-super-test.html

 

[finxster]

The older pros didn't have as much knowledge about post cycle therapy. They did what they thought was best.. they didn't know as much about the HPTA and how suppression worked. If you don't understand suppression tapering the dose would make sense. That's what doctors do today when they put you on corticosteroids.

Who's to say their method worked for them, does anyone know what there cycles looked like? Maybe they never went off cycle and just brought their test down to a maintenance lvl. I'm sure there hpta was blasted way more than any modern bodybuilder.

That's exactly what I think. I know a couple of BBers in their 50's and they say that they never came off. Their doses were lower, but constant. Then when they stoped *BAM* All hell broke loose on their bodies! Dropped significant weight and strength. I'd guess so with the test levels of a 12 year old girl.

 

[GeneticX]

Here is the thread that started it all.
1st off gixxer, how nice of you to grace us with your presence yet again over on the cycle plans thread. You are a complete farce, and I guess you're still not tired of making a complete dunce out of yourself. And just the fact that you're condoning gr's reckless advice(above) makes you even more ridiculous, if that is humanly possible. Let me reemphasize that I clearly stated (advice) & not what he does with himself in the privacy of his own home. If he wants to kill himself by overdosing on juice, then that's his prerogative. And your argument justifying running Dbols & Abombs for 10 weeks in a row is that "people do worse things". lol Do you realize how dumb you sound?? Seriously. Even this gr admitted that his advice was kind of reckless + your other buddy claimed your opinion was retarded. Furthermore, you blame me for sparking the flame, when you are the one responsible for starting this sh** with your comments; and when you were getting a well deserved shellacking for your stupidity, you reverted to using cheap shenanigans by calling up your gang of cronies to do your perilous, dirty work. Also your attempt at repenting for your actions by claiming you were half kidding is laughable. Quit sticking yellow bananas up your a** and take the time to read the filth that you are writing. Finally, you proved my overall theory of how ridiculously daft you are by further quarrelling with B5150.

 

[GeneticX]

LOL. I hope this experience teaches you to STFU next time. Cause nothing you say has any value.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I have no issue with you all offering your advice or telling others what you think of their advice but keep the name calling to a minimum to get our point across please.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Gixx and GR, you need to understand when you put your opinion/advice out there some people will look at it as what 'should' be done and not just an opinion. Telling people to do a cycle like the one in this thread is careless. I'm specifically referring to a comment on page one that calls people pussy's if they can't handle it.

If you want to take insane amounts of steroids and keep a log then that is fine but be responsible on how you lay it out to others.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Alls good.

 

[GeneticX]

K thanks for owning up. I guess we should just agree to disagree.