I was curious as to why all the old skool BBers who did roids have little to no PCT and were able to keep gains and not end up with gyno. It seems that everyone is complaining of gyno these days, even with PCT. What am I not seeing?
I agree completely... some of the old school juicers i know who are now in their late 50s tell me that PCT is a total waste of time and it is only putting more stress on the body, they all suggest a gradual taper down, mixed with proper nutrition and training. As one of them put it, "why replace drugs with more drugs?" even though i feel its not that simple.... different way of looking at it. - HTTCAre you talkin pros or average joes?
Some older users do have some of the problems you wrote about, and others that you didnt. Some older guys I have know have horrible skin on their back, like cottage cheese from severe acne flareups, theres the ones with high bp and real thin hair and a host of other problems. In the old days some did use hcg after, and nolva or clomid, or cyclofenil while on cycle to try to combat gyno, and dont forgot the cycles today(generalizing) are alot higher dosages than what was used and written about in the early steroid guides by the gurus. Also, the pyramid cycle or the tapering off method was used alot where the drugs werent stopped cold turkey, they were tapered down slowly, I guess in hopes that the body would slowly return to a normal state gradually. And lets not forget about gyno surgery, 20 years ago was this even available, look at any plastic surgeon today and chances are they are more than willing to perform it. This main stream procedure had to come from some kind of a need or demand. Dont get me wrong, Im not 100% sold on the whole post cycle therapy thing, I think there are some things that are helpful and some things that are just money makers, but I have yet to figure out which is which.
Its become ingrained in the social aspect of many of these forums, plus some people like making others feel like fools when they can. Im not saying its not useful or practical but I believe the nolva/serm isnt completely necessary for every cycle.If it's overhype, then why do 90% of people on this forum start yelling SERM!, when someone doesn't have it listed in their post cycle therapy? Just found that peculiar.
:goodpost:Everybodys different so here we err on the safe side and tell everybody they need a SERM. Better safe than sorry especially when ur talking to some new member with 2 posts a bottle of Superdrol and a bottle of 6-oxo and hes 6'2 170 pounds with 5 monhts of lifting experience and has no idea what hes getting into. Being firm lets them know it's serious.
How do you know this?I was curious as to why all the old skool BBers who did roids have little to no post cycle therapy and were able to keep gains and not end up with gyno. It seems that everyone is complaining of gyno these days, even with PCT. What am I not seeing?
i've noticed ocular degradation with clomid particularly. it sucks.. i guess in order to have balls ya gotta go blind. my vision has progressively gotten worse due to this. not very bad but it went from 20/25 to now 20/40. my left eye is still 20/10 tho strangely. all i know is by the end of a cycle my nips are usually hurting. i take nolva and clomid. it goes away within a few days.
keep us updated on the appt.Yeah, that comes as no surprise. Clomid is especially a salient agent responsible for rendering the lens opaque. However, it appears as if Toremifene's effects are not innocuous to our vision either.Regardless, I'll probably try ralox next time, or forego a conventional post cycle therapy altogether, by pulsing and using some over the counter products during my convalescence. It may be a risky proposition, and may undermine efforts at restoring optimal lipid values and hpta homeostasis;
notwithstanding, I use these products to increase performance for my athletic endeavors, rather than decrease effectiveness, which would evidently defeat the purpose. Fortunately, my sight has been progressively getting better as of late, and just to err on the side of caution, I've gone through the liberty of scheduling an appointment with an opthamologist to assess the ramifications from the torem use.
I think the concept of a pyramid cycle died out with the sense that it's a waste of steroids to taper off, when proper PCT is available. When the body has grown accustomed to 1000mg of test per week, and you only give it 500mg, the body has to get used to a less suppressive dosage. Because serum concentrations of testosterone are still going to be high during the taper, recovery is going to be painfully slow since reaction rates are governed by concentration.i think the taper helped them alot with not going thru post cycle therapy. You see cycles now days, nobody tapers. I think ill remember to do that next injectable cycle. Followed by a PCT of course.
i cant say i agree with you. How will you get a dramatic drop if you stop at 1g of test a week on your last week. Even if you PCT youll still be fighting that 1g test rather than fighting the drop to 50mg because you tapered down. Even with PCT started it wont be effective if test levels are still very high, hence the taper. Yes youll be suppressed even with 250mg but your body is getting used to lower test levels which youll have in PCT, IMO that will help you keep gains more because you. gradual decline in serum concentration can still yield dramatic/quick recovery if PCT is used, how will it not? I dont see how the same PCT would work slower to restore HPTA for a tapered cycle. But hey whatever, im just a high school grad.I think the concept of a pyramid cycle died out with the sense that it's a waste of steroids to taper off, when proper post cycle therapy is available. When the body has grown accustomed to 1000mg of test per week, and you only give it 500mg, the body has to get used to a less suppressive dosage. Because serum concentrations of testosterone are still going to be high during the taper, recovery is going to be painfully slow since reaction rates are governed by concentration.
Dramatic drop in serum concentrations = dramatic recovery
Gradual decline in serum concentration = gradual recovery
Since pretty much everything over 250mg of test per week is enough to be suppressive, I don't quite see the point. But whatever.
im saying if you used the same methods of pct, how would it be less effective? It would be more effective i would thinkDepending on the rate laws and reactions involved, gradually declining serum concentrations will allow recovery to be exponentially less effective than the current methods of post cycle therapy.
good points.Would gains continue during the taper? You also have to consider the cycle being longer, which means less cycles per year; possibly another reason for not tapering.
Are you planning on using your PCT ancillaries while you're trailing off?im saying if you used the same methods of post cycle therapy, how would it be less effective? It would be more effective i would think
no i wouldnt. Just trail off for like 3-4 weeks or so. Im just thinking the body wouldnt like going from 1000mg test to less than 100mg(norm) test a week just like that. It would rather go 1000, 800, 600, 300, then less than 100mg(norm).Are you planning on using your post cycle therapy ancillaries while you're trailing off?
Was he wearing a shirt?i dont know about most guys but i saw frank zane yesterday and it looked like he had gyno issues still
who knows. i wish one of the older big dudes would layout their full usage somewhere and note as much as they could.The older pros didn't have as much knowledge about post cycle therapy. They did what they thought was best.. they didn't know as much about the HPTA and how suppression worked. If you don't understand suppression tapering the dose would make sense. That's what doctors do today when they put you on corticosteroids.
Who's to say their method worked for them, does anyone know what there cycles looked like? Maybe they never went off cycle and just brought their test down to a maintenance lvl. I'm sure there hpta was blasted way more than any modern bodybuilder.
That's pretty funny. The most decorated and legendary bodybuilder in history; imagine if someone posted this cycle up on this forum today and said that's what they were using - I think it would end up being the most criticized guy on AM.I guess this was arnolds cycle.....nuts with the orals! http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Arnold Schwarzenegger cycle.html
Holy bad advice Batman! That is complete hogwash. I sincerely hope no green newb is led on a primrose path by this lunacy, and ends up in the process fu***** himself royally up. Your reasoning is beyond flawed. It's one thing to take calculated risks, weighing your risks and rewards with cost-benefit analysis, but it's completely another thing to throw caution to the wind by committing a kamikaze style of self destruction. We know better these days due to an increase in knowledge; past cohorts didn't have the luxury of possessing our info. Hence, we evolved, well at least some of us did. Why the hell do you think we live substantially longer now than in the past? Yet, keeping this in mind, you want people to actually regress instead of progress, by completely ignoring physiological warning signals, and committing self inflicted harm. Continuously degrading your sight and slowly torturing your liver aint good genetics in my book; on the other hand, having the cranial capacity to cogitate in a rational, pragmatic manner is indeed a genetic gift. This type of advice is exactly the misinformation that gives gear a bad name in the first place! The few lunatics that are completely reckless about their own affairs, and even suggest to others to follow suit as well. Hey, do as you wish, but please refrain from imparting this type of insidious advice onto others. And since we're doling out advice, here is mine to you: get yourself a good psychiatrist!here's an idea. stop being a pussy. run ur dbol for as long as ya want and take the risk. if ur liver goes to **** then ur genetics are poor. i ran my anadrol and dbol for 10 weeks. my liver is delectable.
it's all in what ur willing to risk and not be afraid to do.
that was just what they did.
I don't even think he was being serious.Holy bad advice Batman! That is complete hogwash. I sincerely hope no green newb is led on a primrose path by this lunacy, and ends up in the process fu***** himself royally up. Your reasoning is beyond flawed. It's one thing to take calculated risks, weighing your risks and rewards with cost-benefit analysis, but it's completely another thing to throw caution to the wind by committing a kamikaze style of self destruction. We know better these days due to an increase in knowledge; past cohorts didn't have the luxury of possessing our info. Hence, we evolved, well at least some of us did. Why the hell do you think we live substantially longer now than in the past? Yet, keeping this in mind, you want people to actually regress instead of progress, by completely ignoring physiological warning signals, and committing self inflicted harm. Continuously degrading your sight and slowly torturing your liver aint good genetics in my book; on the other hand, having the cranial capacity to cogitate in a rational, pragmatic manner is indeed a genetic gift. This type of advice is exactly the misinformation that gives gear a bad name in the first place! The few lunatics that are completely reckless about their own affairs, and even suggest to others to follow suit as well. Hey, do as you wish, but please refrain from imparting this type of insidious advice onto others. And since we're doling out advice, here is mine to you: get yourself a good psychiatrist!
Holy bad advice Batman! That is complete hogwash. I sincerely hope no green newb is led on a primrose path by this lunacy, and ends up in the process fu***** himself royally up. Your reasoning is beyond flawed. It's one thing to take calculated risks, weighing your risks and rewards with cost-benefit analysis, but it's completely another thing to throw caution to the wind by committing a kamikaze style of self destruction. We know better these days due to an increase in knowledge; past cohorts didn't have the luxury of possessing our info. Hence, we evolved, well at least some of us did. Why the hell do you think we live substantially longer now than in the past? Yet, keeping this in mind, you want people to actually regress instead of progress, by completely ignoring physiological warning signals, and committing self inflicted harm. Continuously degrading your sight and slowly torturing your liver aint good genetics in my book; on the other hand, having the cranial capacity to cogitate in a rational, pragmatic manner is indeed a genetic gift. This type of advice is exactly the misinformation that gives gear a bad name in the first place! The few lunatics that are completely reckless about their own affairs, and even suggest to others to follow suit as well. Hey, do as you wish, but please refrain from imparting this type of insidious advice onto others. And since we're doling out advice, here is mine to you: get yourself a good psychiatrist!
That's exactly what I think. I know a couple of BBers in their 50's and they say that they never came off. Their doses were lower, but constant. Then when they stoped *BAM* All hell broke loose on their bodies! Dropped significant weight and strength. I'd guess so with the test levels of a 12 year old girl.The older pros didn't have as much knowledge about post cycle therapy. They did what they thought was best.. they didn't know as much about the HPTA and how suppression worked. If you don't understand suppression tapering the dose would make sense. That's what doctors do today when they put you on corticosteroids.
Who's to say their method worked for them, does anyone know what there cycles looked like? Maybe they never went off cycle and just brought their test down to a maintenance lvl. I'm sure there hpta was blasted way more than any modern bodybuilder.
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