Dermacrine Sounds Suppressive to HPTA

[BigAk]

Although I have just placed an order for Dermacrine, after reading further and talking with Eric, I'm afraid that Dermacrine may be too aggressive for me and may end up messing up my HPTA.

My goal is raise my DHEA levels which happen to be below normal
111 (120 - 520)... In turn I'm hoping to bump up my total testosterone levels as a result.

I'm afraid that Dermacrine is too efficient and too storng of a prohormone; that it will convert too much too fast (2 weeks) to Testosterone on my skin and end up suppressing my HPTA which I can't afford messing with at all. And; if that's the case; I might as well rub my old AndroGel back on.

I'm having second thoughts about Dermacrine... Any thoughts of yours appreciated.

 

[EasyEJL]

Although I have just placed an order for Dermacrine, after reading further and talking with Eric, I'm afraid that Dermacrine may be too aggressive for me and may end up messing up my HPTA.

My goal is raise my DHEA levels which happen to be below normal
111 (120 - 520)... In turn I'm hoping to bump up my total testosterone levels as a result.

I'm afraid that Dermacrine is too efficient and too storng of a prohormone; that it will convert too much too fast (2 weeks) to Testosterone on my skin and end up suppressing my HPTA which I can't afford messing with at all. And; if that's the case; I might as well rub my old AndroGel back on.

I'm having second thoughts about Dermacrine... Any thoughts of yours appreciated.

How about lower doseage? no one says you have to use 5 pumps worth, maybe just try one or two? it would last a while that way too. That way you have a much smaller amount going in, which is less likely to cause that

 

[plymouth city]

DHEA isn't exactly like testosterone - I have reserached this pretty extensively. It would take MONTHS, if not YEARS of DAILY Dhea usage to supress natural production of such hormone.

As long as you cycle, meaning spend as much time off as you do on, you will be perfectly fine.

Your doing your body an even bigger disservice by walking around with subpar DHEA levels.

DHEA is the most abundant steroid in the body, particularily in the brain. Studies show depressed people, by law, have low DHEA, every time.

I would say that DHEA is probably THE most important androgenic hormone in the body. More important than testosterone, or any other. It is vital.

 

[bioman]

"DHEA is the most abundant steroid in the body, particularily in the brain. Studies show depressed people, by law, have low DHEA, every time."

As does anyone with a chronic inflammatory disease..Chrohn's, Collitis, Rhuematoid arthritis, lupus...

 

[dcguy4u]

DHEA is the most abundant steroid in the body, particularily in the brain. Studies show depressed people, by law, have low DHEA, every time.

Do you have studies/links that point to this ? I have read abt pregenlone being low in depressed people and not DHEA.

 

[plymouth city]

Do you have studies/links that point to this ? I have read abt pregenlone being low in depressed people and not DHEA.

This is pretty well known, just google search it.

Pregnenolone is the mother hormone, but DHEA is the most abundant and the most important

 

[EasyEJL]

I was reading a bit about that last nite, the dosages for depression use are listed here

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dhea/NS_patient-dhea

towards the bottom

Depression : 30-90 milligrams per day of DHEA has been used for depression. Higher doses of 200 to 500 milligrams per day have been studied for depression in HIV/AIDS


I'm taking 100g a day now myself

 

[BigAk]

DHEA isn't exactly like testosterone - I have reserached this pretty extensively. It would take MONTHS, if not YEARS of DAILY Dhea usage to supress natural production of such hormone.

As long as you cycle, meaning spend as much time off as you do on, you will be perfectly fine.

Your doing your body an even bigger disservice by walking around with subpar DHEA levels.

DHEA is the most abundant steroid in the body, particularily in the brain. Studies show depressed people, by law, have low DHEA, every time.

I would say that DHEA is probably THE most important androgenic hormone in the body. More important than testosterone, or any other. It is vital.

The major risk with Dermacrine is suppression of HPTA; forget about suppressing DHEA. Even Eric agrees that LH values have come down drastically once testosterone levels went above baseline. That's why he recommends using the sustain afterward as a "post cycle therapy" for the Dermacrine. Basically the product is too strong of a prohormone. The study that he presented me with shows the test subjects having their Testosterone levels above baseline within 5 days of application of only 50mg/day of DHEA gel; therefore, dropping LH drastically. How about using the Dermacrine for the recommended four weeks??? ... might as well rub the old AndroGel packs on.. lol

I guess there's a huge difference between taking a 25mg orally vs. rubbing the same amount on one's skin. My understanding now is that the anzymes on the skin will convert the DHEA to testosterone, estrogen, etc.. too efficiently. That's why I see similarity to rubbing androgel on which is basically full blown HRT.

At this point I'm thinking I should just select the safe route and do what Dr. John has suggested to me in the first place and just take my LEF 25-50mg/day of oral DHEA... This will provide a very slow build up and avoid the huge jump dermacrine promises coupled with an HPTA shutdown. I just can't afford monkeying around with my HPTA at this point... lol

Or; I may do 5 days of Dermacrine at half the recommended dose and leave it alone; then do blood work a month later.

I'm still undecided.. Any valid input appreciated...

Here's the study:

Effects of transdermal application of DHEA on the levels of steroids, gonadotropins and lipids in men.

In order to ascertain the kinetics of absorption and metabolism of transdermally administered dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), 10 men 29-72 years old (mean 52.4+/-14.5) received 50 mg DHEA/day in a gel applied onto the skin of the abdomen for 5 consecutive days. The objective was to establish the extent to which DHEA influences the levels of gonadotropins, sex hormone-binding globulin and lipids. It was found that DHEA is well absorbed and rapidly metabolized to its sulfate (DHEAS), androstenedione, and consequently to testosterone and estradiol. The DHEA levels that markedly increased after the first doses gradually declined already during the application, and this decline proceeded even after it was discontinued, reaching levels significantly lower than the original ones. On the other hand, the levels of DHEA metabolites (with the exception of DHEAS) rose during the application and reached values significantly higher than the basal ones within 5 weeks. This effect was accompanied by significantly decreased levels of LH. The serum levels of lipids, namely of cholesterol (both HDL and LDL cholesterol), triglycerides, apolipoproteins A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) after DHEA application were not changed significantly, and the atherogenic index (AI) remained unaltered. However, some correlations between hormones and lipids were found. Negative correlations concerned the following indices: DHEA/Lp(a); DHEAS/cholesterol; DHEA, DHEAS, testosterone/TG; testosterone/AI. On the other hand, LH, FSH/cholesterol, FSH, SHBG/LDL cholesterol, FSH/Apo B, Lp(a) correlated positively. It can be concluded that transdermal short-time application of DHEA results in a decrease of endogenous DHEA after finishing the treatment, with a parallel marked increase in the levels of sex hormones. Using this application protocol, exogenous DHEA neither altered the lipid spectrum, nor did it influence the atherogenic index.

PMID: 11252535 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[phatkid77]

bump, and a mini thread detour

curious.. b4 i started treatment DHEA was 8.2umol 337ng(2.8-18) then 5 weeks in it dropped to 6.1..which i THINK may be 250ng (120-520), (not sure if i converted correct or not)...

what would be your take on the lowish DHEA levels???? and the benfits of raising them?

phats

 

[EasyEJL]

nothing, because you are still in the middle of range If you aren't in the bottom 10% or lower, leave it alone i'd say.

 

[phatkid77]

cool, thanks

 

[Eric Potratz]

Dermacrine can eventually be suppressive to the HPTA… but a high-dose SHORT-term treatment seems to have the opposite effect. (DHEA appears to have an ability to "repair" an HPTA)



-Pp

 

[hardasnails1973]

Dermacrine can eventually be suppressive to the HPTA… but a high-dose SHORT-term treatment seems to have the opposite effect. (DHEA appears to have an ability to "repair" an HPTA)


-Pp

Would people on TRT have to cycle it as welll as many are low on preg and also dhea. Since many of us have to take dhea and pregenelone why not just stay on it and not cycle it?

 

[BigAk]

Would people on TRT have to cycle it as welll as many are low on preg and also dhea. Since many of us have to take dhea and pregenelone why not just stay on it and not cycle it?

Obviously Those on TRT would not have to cycle Dermacrine as their HPTA is already suppressed via the external Testosterone intake.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Obviously Those on TRT would not have to cycle Dermacrine as their HPTA is already suppressed via the external Testosterone intake.

If one has thyroid problems would dermacrine still absorb into the skin? Thats where alot of people have problems is absorption..

 

[plymouth city]

. How about using the Dermacrine for the recommended four weeks??? ... might as well rub the old AndroGel packs on.. lol

That my friend, is the dilema.

I do not feel that dermacrine is suppressive as long as cycled. I have spoken with many who cycled it with no problems at all. Plenty used Biotest old Magnum formula, which was basically the same thing - a topical prohormone. From what Ive read about it, Mag 10 made dermacrine look like small potatoes. Thats how powerfull it was. And yet all were fine as long as they cycled.

The real dilema to me, as you stated above, is basically this - where do we go from here? Im going threw the same thing myself. Im having FANTASTIC results from dermacrine. I went with full dose the last couple of days, and to be honest, I haven't felt this kick azz since high school. But - Is it really any different that being on HRT? It isn't a permanent fix. It seems to me like the same thing. I wonder myself that if Im going threw all this work everyday applying it, avoiding the HRT route - but yet, how is this really any different?

 

[Travis]

I stacked derm with a mild Designer. I noticed very little in the way of physical symptoms of suppression however I have no bloodwork at this time.

 

[BigAk]

I stacked derm with a mild Designer. I noticed very little in the way of physical symptoms of suppression however I have no bloodwork at this time.

Cant' always rely on your feelings when it comes to suppression... I have felt pretty normal during a time when my testosterone levels turned out to be right at 68 via blood work.. Then when I saw the number on the paper, I thought there's no way in the world I could be feeling this good on 68... True story... Go look at my thread on Meso-Rx..

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/my-pct-journal-kickstart-134243220.html

 

[EIC]

That my friend, is the dilema.

I do not feel that dermacrine is suppressive as long as cycled. I have spoken with many who cycled it with no problems at all. Plenty used Biotest old Magnum formula, which was basically the same thing - a topical prohormone. From what Ive read about it, Mag 10 made dermacrine look like small potatoes. Thats how powerfull it was. And yet all were fine as long as they cycled.

The real dilema to me, as you stated above, is basically this - where do we go from here? Im going threw the same thing myself. Im having FANTASTIC results from dermacrine. I went with full dose the last couple of days, and to be honest, I haven't felt this kick azz since high school. But - Is it really any different that being on HRT? It isn't a permanent fix. It seems to me like the same thing. I wonder myself that if Im going threw all this work everyday applying it, avoiding the HRT route - but yet, how is this really any different?

I'm not sure I read you right, PC. Are you speaking from a moral/philosophical standpoint? As if using Dermacrine is somehow "giving up" rather than going completely natural?

I can't agree that it is the same as full-blown HRT. It seems to me that HRT is admitting "defeat" in a way. As if to say that you can no longer have passable hormone levels on your own and need to rely on drugs. (And not that there is anything wrong with that; it is just a different place.) In contrast, it sounds like Dermacrine is something that somone would use if they are doing alright on their own but want a little extra umph. You can either continue to cycle or simply use once and never use again. Either way, it sounds like you are no worse for wear (and maybe even a little better off) if and when you do decide to stop.

I guess the difference in my mind is that if/when I ever go on HRT, I probably won't be looking back. With Dermacrine, however, I can see myself using it, taking a break for awhile (as in several months), then coming back.

 

[BigAk]

I guess the difference in my mind is that if/when I ever go on HRT, I probably won't be looking back. With Dermacrine, however, I can see myself using it, taking a break for awhile (as in several months), then coming back.

I guess the difference in my mind is that if/when I ever go on HRT, I probably won't be looking back. With AAS, however, I can see myself using it, taking a break for awhile (as in several months), then coming back.

Most bodybuilders start out with the above statement then move to the bottom one at some point.

 

[plymouth city]

I guess the difference in my mind is that if/when I ever go on HRT, I probably won't be looking back. With Dermacrine, however, I can see myself using it, taking a break for awhile (as in several months), then coming back.

Yea, but now Im spoiled - Im seeing that the way Im feeling now is probably how Im "Supposed" to feel.

Im already dreading going off for 2 weeks

 

[EIC]

I guess the difference in my mind is that if/when I ever go on HRT, I probably won't be looking back. With anabolic steroids, however, I can see myself using it, taking a break for awhile (as in several months), then coming back.

Most bodybuilders start out with the above statement then move to the bottom one at some point.

You're implying that using a substance like Dermacrine will be a gateway drug to anabolic steroids. Perhaps for some. But I think your assertion overlooks the fact that Dermacrine is a far cry from steroids. Rubbing a prefabricated cream on one's skin is totally different than going through all of the trouble of taking illegal drugs, measuring out the proper dosages and stacks, taking pharm. grade AIs, etc.

 

[EIC]

Yea, but now Im spoiled - Im seeing that the way Im feeling now is probably how Im "Supposed" to feel.

Im already dreading going off for 2 weeks

Well hopefully you'll keep this going for those two weeks. As noted in the information Eric presented, things only got better after the dudes stoped Derm. for a bit. If so, fasten your seatbelt!

 

[plymouth city]

bump, and a mini thread detour

curious.. b4 i started treatment DHEA was 8.2umol 337ng(2.8-18) then 5 weeks in it dropped to 6.1..which i THINK may be 250ng (120-520), (not sure if i converted correct or not)...

what would be your take on the lowish DHEA levels???? and the benfits of raising them?

phats

This is your bodies natural androgenic production coming to a halt from exogenous T administration.

This is common with pretty much everyone.

You will eventually need an outsode source of Pregnenolone + DHEA.

Dermacrine is the way to go

 

[Travis]

Cant' always rely on your feelings when it comes to suppression... I have felt pretty normal during a time when my testosterone levels turned out to be right at 68 via blood work.. Then when I saw the number on the paper, I thought there's no way in the world I could be feeling this good on 68... True story... Go look at my thread on Meso-Rx..

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/my-pct-journal-kickstart-134243220.html

Hence, the reason I said (and yes I am quoting myself):

I have no bloodwork at this time

 

[BigAk]

Hence, the reason I said (and yes I am quoting myself):

Sorry.. missunderstood you.. my bad..