Taking orals during the day: a waste?

[kwyckemynd00]

I was sitting here thinking about something today, and was wondering what ya'll think about this concept.

Okay, background. Here is what we know:
- While we are awake we are in a primarily catabolic state where the body is "in the mode" of breaking down nutrients for energy.
- While we sleep we are in a highly anabolic state meant to rebuild tissues, replenish nutrient stores, etc.

Now, considering anabolic steroids work, primarily, by increasing protein synthesis and positively adjusting nutrient stores (glycogen, etc), what the hell good does it do for us to take our orals during the day other than its a conventionally accepted standard because it is a more effective way of maintaining constant blood/hormone levels?

If we look at our bodies own natural testosterone production cycle, its not constant by any means. Our daytime production on average is nearly 30% lower than our nighttime production (1). Maybe has something to do with the fact that anabolism occurs during sleep-hours and that is when the steroid hormones are useful.

Anyway, the other major time where protein synthesis occurs post excercise (if induced w/ protein / amino acid intake immediately PWO, 2).

So, here is what I'd like to investigate: Would we see better results with our orals if we took them in accordance with those two critical times? Maybe split your daily dose of hormone up into your workout dose and your nighttime dose, an hour before each?

On a side note, and to play devils advocate here, one good reason for elevated testosterone levels is that it inhibits catabolism. BUT, before we associate that action with all anabolic steroids I think it'd be wise to determine whether or not catablism inhibition is an anabolic steroids-wide phenomenon or if it is specific to certain hormones.

I think I'm going to give this a try next time I run something. If anyone wants to give it a shot, or does something similar already, I'd be really interested to hear from ya!

1. Determination of Testosterone Production Rates in Men and Women Using Stable Isotope/Dilution and Mass Spectrometry -- Vierhapper et al. 82 (5): 1492 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
2. Hussman Fitness - The Fridge: Post-Exercise Protein

EDIT: Example of what I'm proposing.
Superdrol, 20mg/day.

Non-workout day:
--------------------
10mg 2-4hrs pre-bed (4hrs if you're gonna stay up late)
10mg immediately before bed

Workout day:
--------------------
10mg pre-WO (so levels are high PWO)
10mg immediately before bed.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Interesting... to be honest, the reason "we" take it during the day is to try and build up the drug in our system at a constant serum level.. IE: 8 hour half life drug is taken every 8 hours in an attempt to build consistant levels up. I'm not sure about everybody else, but I don't just kinda pop these when the time comes...

 

[EasyEJL]

If we look at our bodies own natural testosterone production cycle, its not constant by any means. Our daytime production on average is nearly 30% lower than our nighttime production (1). Maybe has something to do with the fact that anabolism occurs during sleep-hours and that is when the steroid hormones are useful.

I think, tho may be wrong, that this is one of those "cart pushing the horse" type arguments. I think that the fact that anabolism is highest during sleep is caused by the fact that testosterone is highest then.

You could be right tho, its so hard to get scientifically accurate results tho

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Yeah, I addressed that in the post. I'm proposing it might be possible that keeping constant levels isn't nearly as important as getting high levels during the times of high anabolism.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I think, tho may be wrong, that this is one of those "cart pushing the horse" type arguments. I think that the fact that anabolism is highest during sleep is caused by the fact that testosterone is highest then.

You could be right tho, its so hard to get scientifically accurate results tho

Or is test highest because anabolism is highest? From biologist standpoint I'd definitely postulate that test is highest at that point because that's the period of time designated by our bodies for anabolism. I'm suggest we "try" adjusting our dosages accordingly.

I'm not a physiologist, but I'm pretty sure anabolism is more complicated that high levels of test There are most certainly other factors involved in macronutrient synthesis and storage than testosterone.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Ah so you did. sorry. I personally take something before bed in most cases as well, but never did so with this intention... I prefer taking them and sleeping or taking them and working out or taking them with breakfast... other than that, I split my dose up dependant on half lives.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

You could be right tho, its so hard to get scientifically accurate results tho

Empirical results are a start If the empirical results roll in on something, people are more likely to investigate scientifically.

I highly doubt this question will be addressed by physiologists as a result of us screwing around, but its still interesting.

 

[jonny21]

I thought that elevated hormone levels krpt the body in a prolonged anabolic state. Hence the reason why AAS can assist LBM gains even in a caloric deficit.

 

[EasyEJL]

Empirical results are a start If the empirical results roll in on something, people are more likely to investigate scientifically.

I highly doubt this question will be addressed by physiologists as a result of us screwing around, but its still interesting.

I'm willing to give it a shot in the future, I have some superdrol that a 10mg pre-bed only for 30 days might make sense

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I thought that elevated hormone levels kept the body in a prolonged anabolic state. Hence the reason why anabolic steroids can assist LBM gains even in a caloric deficit.

Its possible, but I can't say I know the answer to that.

What I do know is that during our waking hours our body is busy utilizing macronutrients for energy. I also know that AAS literally tell our bodies to increase protein synthesis. What I'm wondering is if we tell our bodies to produce more proteins in a time when those macromolecules are being used for other purposes (being catabolized for energy) will the directive to carry out protein synthesis be carried out or will the AAS's directive pretty much be useless because the macromolecules and ATP are being used up elsewhere and for other purposes?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I'm willing to give it a shot in the future, I have some superdrol that a 10mg pre-bed only for 30 days might make sense

Is 10mg your normal dose?

Also, If this theory holds any water, I'd also highlight that it'd probably be important to have higher hormone concentrations PWO as well.

So, when I give this a shot I'm going to either take it maybe around 10:00 PM and then again around bed (12:00AM) on non-workout days and on workout days PreWO and then again about an hour before bed time.

I was thinking about running some EpiDrol, but I've never taken it before so I couldn't say whether or not I thought it this method was working well.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Yeah but when we take anabolic steroids we can keep our bodies in an anabolic state

two posts up he explained that brutha. I see what you're saying though... the thing is our body will do it's prioritical things before protein synthesis no matter what we're taking.

 

[jmh80]

The PH's I've taken have not given me too much lethargy. So - I tried to take them pre-WO.
(Some gave a lift when lifting, it seemed.)

Seems like an interesting theory, Kwyck.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Yeah but when we take anabolic steroids we can keep our bodies in an anabolic state

Most steroids primary action is to bind to the AR on the nucleus, tell it to make some RNA, and the RNA is made into a protein.

They tell the body to make more proteins, but if there aren't many available resources, will the protein be made?

If there are some mechanisms by which the body is switched into a more anabolic state via AAS I'd be curious to read more. I know testosterone has anti-catabolic effects, but I don't know how it works or if that anti-catabolic effects are characteristic of ALL or just SOME AAS.

FYI, I'm not playing "know it all", I'm just asking questions here I'm enjoying the conversation! Like I said, I definitely am not a physiologist, so I'm not offended when I'm wrong and if anyone has some good info/links/corrections/etc I'd love to get them from ya.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I <3 kwyckemynd00's fanstariffico penor

Nice to see you around again!

 

[jmh80]

Nice to see you around again!

I've given up hitting on Gimpy when I realized she's too good for me.

Of course that means she's too good for you, also.
But - she doesn't know that, so it's all good. :burg:

 

[jmh80]

Isn't this why we force feed ourselves all day?

I eat because I'm unhappy - and I'm unhappy because I eat.

 

[EasyEJL]

Is 10mg your normal dose?

no, never taken it before. but I could do 30 days @ 10mg pre-bed, then see where I land after pct, take a break and do 30 days @ 10mg pre-workout instead (I work out first thing in the morning)

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Isn't this why we force feed ourselves all day?

Yeah, we eat all day to keep reduce the amount of our tissues that break down for use in glycolysis and the citric acid cycle to make ATP.

But we also have a limited number of ribosomes in our cytosol to make those proteins and, although I don't know this, its possible those ribosomes are busy performing other more high priority protein syntheses, not translating proteins for muscle building.

I did just find something interesting regarding Anavar though. In short, Anavar has shown an ability to reduce glucocorticoid affiniity to the gluococorticoid receptor (but its doesn't happen via competitive inhibition, e.g. anavar doesn't bind to the GR receptor and inhibit it.)
Oxandrolone blocks glucocorticoid signaling in an ...[Steroids. 2004] - PubMed Result
That is probably why var is such a great cutting AAS. This still doesn't confirm that this action is universal amongst all AAS. If it is, then that's enough reason to me to keep the doses well spaced for constant blood levels.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

no, never taken it before. but I could do 30 days @ 10mg pre-bed, then see where I land after post cycle therapy, take a break and do 30 days @ 10mg pre-workout instead (I work out first thing in the morning)

Hmm... I'm not sure the test would be very accurate unless its a hormone you're familiar with.

 

[EasyEJL]

Hmm... I'm not sure the test would be very accurate unless its a hormone you're familiar with.

well, thats why I was saying to run it separately twice, once as a daytime dose, once as a pre-bed dose, compare results

 

[kwyckemynd00]

well, thats why I was saying to run it separately twice, once as a daytime dose, once as a pre-bed dose, compare results

Oh, my bad. I didn't see that part.

The other issue, IMHO, would be that usually a persons first experience w/ a hormone is their best because it would seem that as muscle mass increases effects of AAS on increasing muscle mass decrease.

 

[EasyEJL]

Oh, my bad. I didn't see that part.

The other issue, IMHO, would be that usually a persons first experience w/ a hormone is their best because it would seem that as muscle mass increases effects of anabolic steroids on increasing muscle mass decrease.

true, but in this case, as a light dose cycle I wouldn't expect to get more than 8lbs out of it, and on a 200lb me thats only a 4% difference. I think the androgen receptors part is valid too tho, those do become desensitized. What we need is a pair of twins who work out and do cycles together

 

[yeahright]

What I'm wondering is if we tell our bodies to produce more proteins in a time when those macromolecules are being used for other purposes (being catabolized for energy) will the directive to carry out protein synthesis be carried out or will the anabolic steroids's directive pretty much be useless because the macromolecules and ATP are being used up elsewhere and for other purposes?

Or perhaps just diminished. It's probably not an either or. If the mechanism is as you postulate, then AAS during times of high catabolism are probably just diminished rather than useless....as evidenced by the fact that they do work when taking them during the day.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

true, but in this case, as a light dose cycle I wouldn't expect to get more than 8lbs out of it, and on a 200lb me thats only a 4% difference. I think the androgen receptors part is valid too tho, those do become desensitized. What we need is a pair of twins who work out and do cycles together

LOL...or a pretty big, well controlled population

 

[nycste]

im assuming you can still do the 3 dosages throughout the day every 8 hours thing but make one serving halfway through sleeping perhaps and then 8 hours later around lunch another serving then late evening with following dose halfway sleeping.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Or perhaps just diminished. It's probably not an either or. If the mechanism is as you postulate, then anabolic steroids during times of high catabolism are probably just diminished rather than useless....as evidenced by the fact that they do work when taking them during the day.

Yeah, I"d agree with that. The word "useless" was a bit of an exaggeration

 

[kwyckemynd00]

so are you proposing we take one dose later in the day, one right before bed, and then set an alarm and wake up and take the last dose?

I would be up for trying that.

When I give it a run I'm going to try this:

Workout days:
-----------------
1/2 dose PreWO
1/2 dose an hr or so before bed

Non workout days:
---------------------
1/2 dose 2-4hrs before bed
1/2 dose at bed time

Even 20hrs later you've still got about 20% of the initial dose amount in your bloodstream with a oral that has an 8hr half life, so I suspect any anti-catabolic effects of a hormone may still be felt most of the day. Meh, all just junk theory though, so who knows?

 

[thesinner]

Ummm, I usually take in the morning, in the afternoon and before bed.

One thing is that if you take them before bed, it might disrupt your sleeping patterns.

 

[bombBoogie]

Sounds intriguing, does this theory reflect differently if a product is progestin, methyl or non methyl?

 

[UNCfan1]

Ummm, I usually take in the morning, in the afternoon and before bed.

One thing is that if you take them before bed, it might disrupt your sleeping patterns.

Thats how I have always taken mine. It never bothered my sleep patterns.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Sounds intriguing, does this theory reflect differently if a product is progestin, methyl or non methyl?

I'd pretty much limit it to orals, 17a methylated or not, because their half life is short enough that time of dose "could" make a difference.

Any theory is worth a shot, no?

Pretty much

 

[RisingAgainst]

Ummm, I usually take in the morning, in the afternoon and before bed.

One thing is that if you take them before bed, it might disrupt your sleeping patterns.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesinner again.

GO WIZZ-RA!

 

[EasyEJL]

Ummm, I usually take in the morning, in the afternoon and before bed.

One thing is that if you take them before bed, it might disrupt your sleeping patterns.

that would be compound specific really, lower androgenic compounds shouldn't really affect sleep so much

 

[awmcdon]

I'm a chemist and have a very limited biology background, but I will say that after thinking about this I'm in complete agreement with you.

I've seen so many of my buddies do a cycle on limited calorie intake(because they were afraid they would loose their six pack) and make minimal gains, while I make much better gains on the same cycle by just eating more.
I wonder what kind of gains they would have achieved by taking the dose at night with the same food intake?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

No food, no grow

And, I wouldn't just say taking it "at night" is what I'd want to suggest trying out, I'm suggesting that structuring your doses so that the highest concentrations of the hormone exist in your body around the times where anabolism is highest: post workout (triggered w/ amino acids, primarily leucine from what I've read) and bed time.

 

[neoborn]

I am very intrigued by your post, I love to think about things like this. I have wondered and would like to know a few things:

1. There must be certain factors when growing up that when you get to 'puberty' or roughly 13yrs old suddenly a whole bunch of keys start unlocking the locks to hormones etc that put you into growth / test overdrive or for the girls growth / estrogen overdrive. I would like to know what happens at this age to start the ball rolling and if we know why can't we just make it happen again later on in life if we have all the keys to the locks?

2. Your thinking is why Pulsing orals etc makes so much sense to me, because the body is never in balance but always swinging back and forth between anabolism / catabolism, testosterone / estrogen etc so pulsing just causes bigger swings to either way then we control the unwanted sides of the swing with suicide chems or inhibitors but still let the processes happen.

So with that said, given your understanding in bodily processes is correct then causing a larger swing when the body is being largely anabolic would be beneficial ( I do not have any understanding really in the times etc of when growth / breakdown occurs or the natural biorythmms of the body ).

I am very intrigued and would love to rather stimulate the bodies natural ways of boosting test to the max than use synthetic of artificial materials. I believe the process to be very complex and that you have to have ABCDEFG in order before you get H to happen while H is the test boost you want..

I dunno just thinking aloud.

P.S can anyone link me to a laymans understanding / explanation of half lives etc ( no not the game )

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I am very intrigued by your post, I love to think about things like this. I have wondered and would like to know a few things:

1. There must be certain factors when growing up that when you get to 'puberty' or roughly 13yrs old suddenly a whole bunch of keys start unlocking the locks to hormones etc that put you into growth / test overdrive or for the girls growth / estrogen overdrive. I would like to know what happens at this age to start the ball rolling and if we know why can't we just make it happen again later on in life if we have all the keys to the locks?

That's something a developmental physiologist would probably be best suited answering. I don't know what triggers the testis to start kicking. And, to the best of my knowledge, this is still a big mystery altogether!

2. Your thinking is why Pulsing orals etc makes so much sense to me, because the body is never in balance but always swinging back and forth between anabolism / catabolism, testosterone / estrogen etc so pulsing just causes bigger swings to either way then we control the unwanted sides of the swing with suicide chems or inhibitors but still let the processes happen.

So with that said, given your understanding in bodily processes is correct then causing a larger swing when the body is being largely anabolic would be beneficial ( I do not have any understanding really in the times etc of when growth / breakdown occurs or the natural biorythmms of the body ).

Well...that's the idea

I am very intrigued and would love to rather stimulate the bodies natural ways of boosting test to the max than use synthetic of artificial materials. I believe the process to be very complex and that you have to have ABCDEFG in order before you get H to happen while H is the test boost you want..

Incredibly complex. Our bodies produce about 60,000 unique proteins (not including other macromolecules), and we only understand the functions of only a very small fraction of those.

I dunno just thinking aloud.

Me, too.

P.S can anyone link me to a laymans understanding / explanation of half lives etc ( no not the game )

Much Love,

Neoborn

Half life: say you've got 1000 molecules of superdrol. The half life is the time in which approximately half of them would still be active.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Interesting stuff, Gixxer...thx for the link.

 

[Red Dog]

More in line with the recent posts (sorry to hijack) but I've always wondered what exactly the mechanism series is that switches on the production of all the hormones that result in that crazy puberty growth.. but I came across an article that was really intriguing, part of which says..

What triggers puberty
The hypothalamus releases a hormone (gonadotropin-releasing hormone GnRH) which in turn prompts the pituitary gland to secrete a set of hormones itself. These are called gonadotropins. The two main ones are luteinising hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH).In turn the gonadotropins induce the development of the ovaries and testes, which then release the gonadal steroids. (http://www.asbha.org.au/PrecociousPuberty.htm#triggers)

But what I think we are saying is if you could pinpoint exactly what initially triggers the release of GnRH and subsequently those physiological responses to start happening, I think you'd be in line for a Nobel .. or atleast a ridiculous amount of attention and praise among the scientific community (cause you would pretty much win at life) so yeah.. lets get on that!:bow28:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

You got it. We know what happens, we just don't know "why/how" it starts.

 

[EasyEJL]

You know, between this and some of what i'm reading from Dr D, I wonder about doing just an immediate pre-workout, and immediately pre-bed dose and nothing more. the pre-workout dose is so it is in system for the post workout healing. And on non-workout days, only take pre-bed. Interesting idea

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Hhaha....that's pretty much the protocol I outlined a couple times during the thread

I'm gonna give it a go sometime this month, what the hell, right?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Bingo.

 

[neoborn]

I like cutting edge stuff like this ....where the flux is teh Dr.D and teh PA to perhaps give us some light on this subject or at least their input ....

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[AM07]

Interesting topic. I'll definitely be following this.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

I like cutting edge stuff like this ....where the flux is teh Dr.D and teh PA to perhaps give us some light on this subject or at least their input ....

Much Love,

Neoborn

They're both too busy trying to patent my protocol as their own individual intellectual property. :duel:

J/K Regardless of the outcome there is no way we could actually prove that this was effective or ineffective with our current "research methods" :lol: This is all in fun, so if they don't wanna join the fun then eff'em.

 

[neoborn]

Some Nobel price biologists or physiologists or peeps that are intimate with this stuff would be kewl to chime in, anyone know peeps that have intimate knowledge of this process at puberty?

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[neoborn]

"When will it all kick off?

Scientists still don't know what triggers the trigger. In other words - what causes the hypothalamus to start releasing the hormone that switches on puberty? It involves the nervous system and hormones. But social and psychological factors as well as eating habits are also likely to play a role. Puberty is starting earlier than it used to. In 1890, most girls had their first period at 15. Nowadays girls start their periods around the age of 13. But the age varies, puberty starts bewteen the ages of eight and 13 in girls and nine and 14 in boys."

BBC - Science & Nature - Human Body and Mind - Teenagers

"What triggers puberty is not fully understood. It may be due to the withdrawal of inhibitory nerve connections which damp down a part of the brain called the hypothalamus. Once this inhibition is removed, the hypothalamus releases pulses of a trigger substance called Leutinising Hormone-Releasing Hor-mone (LHRH). These LHRH pulses pass down nerve endings to stimulate the pituitary gland just beneath the hypothalamus, at the base of the brain."

The Complete Book of Men's Health - Part 1: Sexual Health

"The hypothalamo-pituitary-gonadal axis in children is fully functional in fetal life and immediately after birth. The reason why it declines with advancing years of childhood is not clear but gonadotropin pulsatility is at a nadir at 6 years of age. From that time pulsatile gonadotropin starts to reappear but, again, the reason why this happens is completely unknown. All of the events of puberty can be ascribed to pulsatile gonadotropin-releasing hormone stimulation causing pulsatile gonadotropin stimulation of sex steroids. The sex steroids explain the development of the pubertal characteristics; the fact that girls have an earlier growth spurt than boys is explained by the differential effect of oestradiol and testosterone on hypothalamic control of pituitary growth hormone secretion."

Mechanism of Puberty

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Okay pedo, we're talking about drugs not pre-pubescent children here. (jk, I <3 u too)