Epistane Problem

[mayneVayne]

I am beginning my third week on EPI and the last two days i am retaining more water, and my nips are VERY sensitive and hard all the time. We all know what this sounds like..... but is it possible?? (with my luck it would be)

Ive searched and searched on all the boards and have found no one reporting signs of gyno with EPI/HAVOC... im torn and dont know what to do. I could just be trippin, but my tits dont lie. and this BLOAT?? all are signs of gyno. But what do you guys think? what would running a low dose of nolva at bedtime do since EPI is supposable a SERM of sorts anyway? Any input would be much appreciated.

im currently NOT pulsing, ramped up to 60mg/day from 20mg 4 weeks in. Doses spread evenly throughout the day into three 20mg doses.

HELP

 

[mayneVayne]

(meant to say startiing my fourth week up there sorry)

 

[edwards]

i'm definately NOT an expert but I have read that some users report gyno at high levels. it seems that the gyno destroying properties of epi occur in the moderate to small dose range (ie 20mg daily) your nips don't lie. i would probably reduce the dosage or consider busting out the nolva.

but again, i'm no where near an expert at this, as i am on my first cycle of epi right now (40mg day)

 

[mayneVayne]

thanks man.... Can u point me in the direction of where you were reading about this??? I haven't found anything on this topic

 

[xarjun]

gyno on epistane? Havent heard much about this happening.

Not an expert on this, so I'll defer to those who know more. But I will say that if I was in your place, I would stop the cycle short and start the pct and serms right away.

Just to clarify, are you dosing every day? Also, could you post your weight and if you were taking anything else before you started the epi cycle (if so, what and how long ago?).

 

[mayneVayne]

If I start nolva @ 20 mg @ night wouldnt this resolve itself and i could continue the cycle?? If u guys really think i should end the cycle i will, but up until a few days ago epistane has been fantastic. So if nolva could safetly carry me another two weeks i would love to finish. Let me know.

 

[mayneVayne]

gyno on epistane? Havent heard much about this happening.

Not an expert on this, so I'll defer to those who know more. But I will say that if I was in your place, I would stop the cycle short and start the post cycle therapy and serms right away.

Just to clarify, are you dosing every day? Also, could you post your weight and if you were taking anything else before you started the epi cycle (if so, what and how long ago?).

yes im dosimg every day, im 6'3" 220, running epi solo with nothing ut support supps. I was taking nothing before. Last cycle was close to a year ago (superdrol).

 

[Hyde12]

If I start nolva @ 20 mg @ night wouldnt this resolve itself and i could continue the cycle?? If u guys really think i should end the cycle i will, but up until a few days ago epistane has been fantastic. So if nolva could safetly carry me another two weeks i would love to finish. Let me know.

You might want to try some Formestane.

 

[ChuckBooty]

If I start nolva @ 20 mg @ night wouldnt this resolve itself and i could continue the cycle?? If u guys really think i should end the cycle i will, but up until a few days ago epistane has been fantastic. So if nolva could safetly carry me another two weeks i would love to finish. Let me know.

I would run the nolva and end the cycle...it sounds like you're just about done anyway so why risk it for an extra pound or two that you probably wouldn't keep anyways.

I think you should end the cycle and start PCT dosing 40/40/30/20

Tits are not to be tolorated!

 

[mayneVayne]

thanks guys I appreciate it.

 

[BrownBoi]

i need help!

Hey im really sorry and i swear im not trying to jack the thread but i really need some advice. I will be taking AI cycle support a week before and trough the entire cycle. im planning on running the following cycle

week 1 havoc 20mg
week 2 havoc 30mg
week 3 havoc 30mg/ winztrol 100mg
week 4 havoc 30-40mg/winztrol 150mg
week 5 winztrol 200mg
week 6 winztrol 200-250mg
week 7 nolva 40
week 8 nolva 30
week 9 nolva 20
week 10 nolva 20

questions
1. should i run the havoc and the winztrol together? meaning weeks 1-4 havoc with winztrol. instead of havoc 1-4 and winztrol weeks 3-7.
2. when is the best time to take the nolva? and what do i drink it with?
3. should i throw an AI in there? if so what would you suggest?

Hey guys any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm dying to start my cycle but i want to have all the kinks ironed out before i start. thanks!

 

[DR.D]

If there is no itch, I would try to conclude the cycle. Start taking 200mg motrin 3x/day and start taking an AI twice a day too. Adding 20mg Nolva/n right now is also a top priority.

What else is going on with you? What else can you tell me about yourself and current lifestyle, status and medical history that might yield some insights?

 

[mayneVayne]

If there is no itch, I would try to conclude the cycle. Start taking 200mg motrin 3x/day and start taking an AI twice a day too. Adding 20mg Nolva/n right now is also a top priority.

What else is going on with you? What else can you tell me about yourself and current lifestyle, status and medical history that might yield some insights?

Thanks for your reply... its always best to get the info from the horses mouth ;-)

Actually I started dosing nolva two nights ago @ 20mgs and have kept the EPI @ 60mgs/day. I felt that dropping the dosage of EPI might FURTHER aggrevate the situation so just added the nolva and quite frankly everything feels back to normal (or on its way i.e.: no more sensitivity, bloat is going down, etc...)

So at this point i am going to finish out the cycle... if the problem arises again i will discontinue and start post cycle therapy immediately.

But as long as your here i have a few ??'s....

What would the motrin do? Ive never heard this before sounds interesting.

I have unopened rebound xt, but not rebound reloaded.... would you suggest this type of AI or something more like Arimedex, formestane etc... because i would have to order those. I am also very nervous about AI because everytime i take one it really seems to just jack me up all around for lack of a better word... i feel almost like "catabolic" while on them, loss of strength, fullness, BAD attitude etc... but will try one if you suggest. I also see people using them for post cycle therapy.. but thought they were no good during post cycle therapy because they slow down hormonal recovery.

Finally (sorry this is long as hell) i have read and read about post cycle therapy for this stuff... i am EXTREMELY gyno prone... like POWERFULL, and lame ass OTC test boosters even aggrevate it... so what would YOU suggest for a personalized post cycle therapy for someone that is VERY gyno prone, but will bounce me back fast and retain my gains?? (i have torem, clomid, nolva and like three drawers of test boosters and **** that i keep buying and not using) let me know.... your time is VERY appreciated.

and ps i dont mean to drop any negativity on epistane, its the shizz... my tits are just some high-maintenence *****es.

also, which would you suggest for BEST cortisol control between xlean, lean extreme (use it all the time), and all otc cort bockers... like which works the best but is the least suppressive?? or is clen still best?

 

[Hyde12]

I am beginning my third week on EPI and the last two days i am retaining more water, and my nips are VERY sensitive and hard all the time. We all know what this sounds like..... but is it possible?? (with my luck it would be)

Ive searched and searched on all the boards and have found no one reporting signs of gyno with EPI/HAVOC... im torn and dont know what to do. I could just be trippin, but my tits dont lie. and this BLOAT?? all are signs of gyno. But what do you guys think? what would running a low dose of nolva at bedtime do since EPI is supposable a SERM of sorts anyway? Any input would be much appreciated.

im currently NOT pulsing, ramped up to 60mg/day from 20mg 4 weeks in. Doses spread evenly throughout the day into three 20mg doses.

HELP

Your symptoms could also be from E2 getting too low because some of the symptoms for high E2 are the same as low E2 and low E2 is a whole lot more likely with EPI.

 

[jomi822]

wow ANOTHER epistane/havoc "problem" thread.

i must have said it 50 effin times

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

I'm having problems on epi and mdien. I've lowered the epi from 30 to 20 and started nolva and rxt.

 

[DR.D]

Thanks for your reply... its always best to get the info from the horses mouth ;-)

Actually I started dosing nolva two nights ago @ 20mgs and have kept the EPI @ 60mgs/day. I felt that dropping the dosage of EPI might FURTHER aggrevate the situation so just added the nolva and quite frankly everything feels back to normal (or on its way i.e.: no more sensitivity, bloat is going down, etc...)

So at this point i am going to finish out the cycle... if the problem arises again i will discontinue and start post cycle therapy immediately.

But as long as your here i have a few ??'s....

What would the motrin do? Ive never heard this before sounds interesting.

I have unopened rebound xt, but not rebound reloaded.... would you suggest this type of AI or something more like Arimedex, formestane etc... because i would have to order those. I am also very nervous about AI because everytime i take one it really seems to just jack me up all around for lack of a better word... i feel almost like "catabolic" while on them, loss of strength, fullness, BAD attitude etc... but will try one if you suggest. I also see people using them for post cycle therapy.. but thought they were no good during post cycle therapy because they slow down hormonal recovery.

Finally (sorry this is long as hell) i have read and read about post cycle therapy for this stuff... i am EXTREMELY gyno prone... like POWERFULL, and lame ass OTC test boosters even aggrevate it... so what would YOU suggest for a personalized post cycle therapy for someone that is VERY gyno prone, but will bounce me back fast and retain my gains?? (i have torem, clomid, nolva and like three drawers of test boosters and **** that i keep buying and not using) let me know.... your time is VERY appreciated.

and ps i dont mean to drop any negativity on epistane, its the shizz... my tits are just some high-maintenence *****es.

also, which would you suggest for BEST cortisol control between xlean, lean extreme (use it all the time), and all otc cort bockers... like which works the best but is the least suppressive?? or is clen still best?

That's perfect, start Nolva and try to finish the cycle was exactly what I was suggesting.

Skip the AI if it causes probs and if what you're doing now is already working, but yeah in PCT an AI would be good for you if you're gyno prone. RXT starts working against fast also, at least in typical guys, I'm not sure with you my friend! You seem to be extremely sensitive to endocrine manipulation. We shall see, and please feel free to PM me if you have an emergency concerns. Stay away from reversible AI's like Letro if you're gyno prone because they can rebound, only use the steroidals like exemestane, ATD, 6-Br, formestane, teslac, etc..

You can skip the motrin too if you have it under control, but it helps mostly in the beginning stages of gyno when prostoglandins are strongly involved. GH and IGF induced gyno is especially well treated with COX inhibitors like motrin.

I don't mind you posting this at all friend, I know you aren't trying to hurt Epi. If you have an issue I want to know so I can help. Plus it's good data because I have not seen this before with Epi.

For PCT, I would do tor/ATD. How close to PCT are you and what test boosters do you have exactly so I can lay it out?

 

[DR.D]

Your symptoms could also be from E2 getting too low because some of the symptoms for high E2 are the same as low E2 and low E2 is a whole lot more likely with EPI.

It depends, I have seen E2 levels double on Epi before, just like estro values can test unusually high during treatment with other common SERMs. People think Epi lowers E2, and it can, but in general it mostly blocks ERs and leaves estrogen alone. That's why it's so nice on lipids I suppose, it's almost unheard of for a non-aromatizable oral to be so clean on cholesterol numbers.

 

[DR.D]

wow ANOTHER epistane/havoc "problem" thread.

i must have said it 50 effin times

Yeah, but nobody listens to you anymore J. j/k bro!

 

[mayneVayne]

That's perfect, start Nolva and try to finish the cycle was exactly what I was suggesting.

Skip the AI if it causes probs and if what you're doing now is already working, but yeah in post cycle therapy an AI would be good for you if you're gyno prone. RXT starts working against fast also, at least in typical guys, I'm not sure with you my friend! You seem to be extremely sensitive to endocrine manipulation. We shall see, and please feel free to PM me if you have an emergency concerns. Stay away from reversible AI's like Letro if you're gyno prone because they can rebound, only use the steroidals like exemestane, ATD, 6-Br, formestane, teslac, etc..

You can skip the motrin too if you have it under control, but it helps mostly in the beginning stages of gyno when prostoglandins are strongly involved. GH and IGF induced gyno is especially well treated with COX inhibitors like motrin.

I don't mind you posting this at all friend, I know you aren't trying to hurt Epi. If you have an issue I want to know so I can help. Plus it's good data because I have not seen this before with Epi.

For PCT, I would do tor/ATD. How close to PCT are you and what test boosters do you have exactly so I can lay it out?

Okay i also started the RXT and its REALLY much better... RXTs gave me more of an issue when ran as a standalone for a natty stack etc... but im going to continue with that.

as for pct i believe i once read that AI's can cause problems because they hinder the serm from bouncing back your test as fast? your thoughts on what dose and how i should incorporate it with the torem?? i was also planning on running lean extreme - but is x-lean or any other cort block a better option?? which is supposed to be better for cort control??

and as for test boosters i have like two bottles of powerfull, axis ht, longjack, avena sativa, diesel test 2010, endotest... but would gladly order something different/better if you suggest.... i still have two weeks.

(still plan on running all the other herbal support sups, milk thistle, omega III, etc etc....)

Thanks again so much for your help... I really appreciate it.

 

[neoborn]

Dr.D please can you take a look at my section in the faq just to make sure everythings up to your high standards?

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/982614-post4.html

Thanks man, love joo long time,

Neoborn

 

[jomi822]

Yeah, but nobody listens to you anymore J. j/k bro!

i bet quiet a few people with PCT problems/gyno wish they had listened to me, in retrospect.

 

[DR.D]

i bet quiet a few people with post cycle therapy problems/gyno wish they had listened to me, in retrospect.

Don't be like that J! I was just f/n around with you man. You have some valid points. But let's face it bro, your tits look like they might even be bigger than mine so why should they listen to you for gyno advise either?! :rofl:

 

[jomi822]

Don't be like that J! I was just f/n around with you man. You have some valid points. But let's face it bro, your tits look like they might even be bigger than mine so why should they listen to you for gyno advise either?! :rofl:

it all comes down to who you would rather titty bang

 

[ChuckBooty]

it all comes down to who you would rather titty bang

j...what exactly IS the problem that you have with epistane? From reading your posts, it seems that you think that epistane is a junk product in the first place and the whole pulsing phenomenon was invented by Dr. D. in order to hawk these pills....does that about sum it up? If so what do you have to back this up?

 

[ChuckBooty]

...and it I also think that you believe that Dr. D. knocked down the twin towers...

 

[neoborn]

j...what exactly IS the problem that you have with epistane? From reading your posts, it seems that you think that epistane is a junk product in the first place and the whole pulsing phenomenon was invented by Dr. D. in order to hawk these pills....does that about sum it up? If so what do you have to back this up?

From what I remember I believe that Jomi doesn't have a problem but is very passionate about performing a standard style PCT to promote recovery and protection from Gyno, am I right Jomi?

I didn't think he hated Epistane but is not a believer in pulsing. He still has a valid opinion like everyone else in here and deserves to be heard...

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[jomi822]

j...what exactly IS the problem that you have with epistane? From reading your posts, it seems that you think that epistane is a junk product in the first place and the whole pulsing phenomenon was invented by Dr. D. in order to hawk these pills....does that about sum it up? If so what do you have to back this up?

i have not use epistane, i have used havoc. never quiet got the confirmation on to which one was really the pure product because these supp companies are willing to lie/cheat/hamstring each other in order to sell a product and cover their own asses.

anyway, havoc is by far the worst steroid side effect-wise i have ever used. the stuff knocked me on my ass in every way possible. name a side effect, i had it.

that aside, i do have no direct problem with epistane. people have just been told to approach the compound as some kind of joke. pulsing is nothing new, just a recycled method from the 70's and 80's revamped and given a new name. i believe it is a sales gimmic on the part of certain idividiuals working for certain companies.....ahem.....to sell more epistane.

why is epistane a prime candidate for pulsing? its really not, its just a new product with a new and easier and most importantly, safer, method of cycling.

half the posts in the steroid section are how to get the most gains out of the safest compounds experiencing the least side effects. the pulsing method has provided that route. little side effects, great gains, easy recovery with little-no post cycle therapy required. sounds like a breeze. if i were newbin it up that would sound great to me, and it certainly appears that it has to many people. who of course have bought epistane because it was the "example" product used.

the problem is that epistane really just isnt as mild or as un-supressive as it was advertised. This is the 4th incidence of gyno i have seen with the compound...a compound which supposedly acts as a serm. I have also seen multiple "failed recovery" threads pop up. i have been saying from the start the idea of "no post cycle therapy" and "gains without side effects" is just ridiculous.

pulsing is just meant to make epistane look more appealing and safe to those that dont know any better.

 

[DR.D]

... pulsing is just meant to make epistane look more appealing and safe to those that dont know any better.

I can see why you may be cynical or at least skeptical these days, but if I have given you that impression about myself or the companies I work with, I have apparently failed you somehow. That's not me at all though, and certainly not the motive behind any of my advice ever, so I'm sorry you feel that way J.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I haven't seen any gyno threads producing anything that proves they had gyno from this product or whether it was already there prior to...While i'm not a pulsing fan, I know for a fact that epistane/havoc is not harsh in sides nor the body when compared to other orals in this field. And this I do have paperwork to back it up with since I did blood panels.

 

[jomi822]

I haven't seen any gyno threads producing anything that proves they had gyno from this product or whether it was already there prior to...While i'm not a pulsing fan, I know for a fact that epistane/havoc is not harsh in sides nor the body when compared to other orals in this field. And this I do have paperwork to back it up with since I did blood panels.

might just be the way the dice roll. my experience with havoc was terrible. however i also gained 20lbs on the stuff, so i would say my experience is atypical to start with

i felt fine on m1t, felt like absolute **** on havoc. i dont mean to step on feet here, but i feel that kids are going to see this pulse method and think of it as the "safe way out". attatching the words "no post cycle therapy" to any steroid is just a horrible idea, especially with a highly available steroid.

im thinking safety here, not just being a biotch

if anything, pulsing should be an advanced method only experienced users who have their body, diet, ancilliaries, and pct down to the T.

 

[Jayhawkk]

I have no issue with that statement and you'll always see me tell people to have a proper pct ready and never use epi/havoc with the intent of getting rid of gyno etc.

 

[neoborn]

Why don't you try Epistane Jomi and get back to us? I think you may be pleasantly surprised. It will also give you a chance to have first hand experience rather than heresay from others...

So, whadya think?

Much love,

Neoborn

 

[jomi822]

Why don't you try Epistane Jomi and get back to us? I think you may be pleasantly surprised. It will also give you a chance to have first hand experience rather than heresay from others...

So, whadya think?

Much love,

Neoborn

i have tried havoc and it just isnt worse the side effects again.

ill pass

 

[neoborn]

I just want to clarify, I did say Epistane not Havoc, obviously the choice is yours if you don't want to take the chance, and come to a conclusion on another product.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[Red Dog]

in response to j's comments it seems to me that it's not even necessarily that newer kids don't want to run a pct, but they can't get ahold of/don't wanna bother getting a serm. i mean yes i agree that no pct is not the swiftest of moves and something i would never suggest regardless of how little suppression is supposed to occur... but the fact that this is an option that allows the "safe" use of these ps's without having to get ahold of a serm is an attractive prospect in individuals without extensive connections.. just my buck o' five for freedom..


:rofl: seacrest out.. :rofl:

 

[Rictor33]

I have been in this ph/as game for quite some time, I am skeptical on epi although I do have some... I was skeptical on pulsing as well until I did it with s-drol... I usually get horrible back-pumps and loss of libido on s-drol e/d when I pulsed 2on/2off I was able to gain strength and hardness (not too much in the size dept, superdrol has never done that for me) without the sides that prevented me from running a nice, light cycle.. I did minimal post cycle therapy since I tapered down the amounts toward the end of the 2month 2on/2off sdrol cycle and everything feels completely normal.. So, I am sold on pulsing, but it depends on the compounds..

ps. Different strokes for different folks when it comes to these "new" compounds. I am pretty much done experimenting due to the horrible sides I worked through on
M1T (stupid).. I think alot of these side-effect problems come from people who grab the new compounds and use them at high doses without assessing tollerance first. If I did that with M1T I would have had a heart attack or stroke.. Just because "pulsing" might call for higher dosing in some because you use the compound less frequently does not mean to start @ 40-60mg and pulse it. BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY is the way to play with new compounds.. Your body is with you for life, so treat it as such.. As much respect as I have for those who post and do research on these boards, it is better to find out for yourself how your body responds to the compound rather than take someone elses word for it. Remember, everyone is different. Just my .02

 

[DR.D]

I have been in this ph/as game for quite some time, I am skeptical on epi although I do have some... I was skeptical on pulsing as well until I did it with s-drol... I usually get horrible back-pumps and loss of libido on s-drol e/d when I pulsed 2on/2off I was able to gain strength and hardness (not too much in the size dept, superdrol has never done that for me) without the sides that prevented me from running a nice, light cycle.. I did minimal post cycle therapy since I tapered down the amounts toward the end of the 2month 2on/2off sdrol cycle and everything feels completely normal.. So, I am sold on pulsing, but it depends on the compounds.. ...

That's the whole point! I can try to explain the principles logically, and it may or may not makes sense to some people, but if you just try it once, you're sold! After you see how well it works, you NEVER wanna abuse yourself again the way you used to. It's one of those "who would have guessed", "gotta try it to believe it" things for sure. I stumbled upon it by accident years ago in an effort to avoid PCT, and it worked.

 

[mayneVayne]

That's the whole point! I can try to explain the principles logically, and it may or may not makes sense to some people, but if you just try it once, you're sold! After you see how well it works, you NEVER wanna abuse yourself again the way you used to. It's one of those "who would have guessed", "gotta try it to believe it" things for sure. I stumbled upon it by accident years ago in an effort to avoid post cycle therapy, and it worked.

dr d ive sent you 2 pm's. i could really use a reply when you have time. thanks.

 

[DR.D]

dr d ive sent you 2 pm's. i could really use a reply when you have time. thanks.

I'll check right now. Sorry man, I'm usually faster to respond but I've been under attack the last few days more than usual! It's a constant distraction unfortunately.

 

[neoborn]

D, while you're here can you explain the one full dose pre w/o as opposed to the split in laymans terms please?

Much Love,

Neoborn

/hijack

 

[DR.D]

D, while you're here can you explain the one full dose pre w/o as opposed to the split in laymans terms please?

Much Love,

Neoborn

/hijack

It's simple, some compounds have a longer than average half-life (Anadrol-50 for example) so you can take it all pre-w/o for the strength and focus and still have high enough levels in your body for the glycogen loading and anabolism post-w/o too. It's all about anabolic windows and half-life's.

Remember, you really don't need an anabolic on off days just to load 50g of protein in your system every 4hrs. Mostly just an anti-cortisol (or high, frequent calories) to discourage catabolism while you repair in that off time. Max anabolism happens just after training. If anybody wants to disagree, I challenge them to skip their post w/o meal and tell me what happens! No way, right? That would be post-w/o suicide. Way worst than missing a meal the next day, no doubt about it.

 

[neoborn]

Thanks for giving me the low down, can you tell me what the perfect dose to post w/o meal would look like to you? Can you walk me through it?

 

[sinatra08]

not trying to hijack the thread but i have a concern...i was running my first cycle of havoc (one of the new guys who kinda got sucked into it...i dont need to be lectured or anything because i know i shouldve done it differently now i just need some guidance)

im pretty sure i had gyno in my teenage years but i have finished the second week of my pulse cycle of havoc and i have noticed a tenderness in my right nip. im not sure if it was like this before because i didnt really think about it but there is a bump underneath. the left side is fine but im just worried that it might be gyno on the right side. im not really positive it is gyno it could just be from something else but i am just getting pretty paranoid and i keep messing with it so that doesnt help anything.

this is what my plan was:

Week 1: 10/20/30/30
Week 2: 30/30/30/30
Week 3: 30/30/30/30
Week 4: 40/40/40/30
Week 5: 40/40/40/30

on workout days I also took 4 HyperdrolX2
on off days I took 2 HDX2 and 1 Retain and some ALA

for post cycle therapy Id switch the HDX2 for MassFX and continue taking Retain and ALA and throw Creatine and BCAAs back into the mix

i would just like some advice on what to do to just stop the gyno from getting worse if that is what it is or how i should just shut down this cycle because i dont feel like taking any more of a risk after this scare

 

[DR.D]

I honestly doubt it's gyno. I think for one, you have to stop messing with it. I know that it's tempting, lol, but only check it once in the AM and once in the PM, that's it! Real gyno itches. Real gyno hurts too bad to even touch it. You are likely experiencing some mild inflammation from some activity in that area, but on HD and Havoc, that activity is most likely death of estrogen dependent breast tissue. It's also called "tumor flame", though that term is not strictly appropriate in these cases.

If it does not regress in a few weeks, or if it gets worse, or if it starts to itch, then you will need to start a SERM and abort the cycle.

 

[sinatra08]

when you say itches do you mean itches like crazy or it is a slight annoying type itch?

 

[EasyEJL]

in response to j's comments it seems to me that it's not even necessarily that newer kids don't want to run a post cycle therapy, but they can't get ahold of/don't wanna bother getting a serm. i mean yes i agree that no post cycle therapy is not the swiftest of moves and something i would never suggest regardless of how little suppression is supposed to occur... but the fact that this is an option that allows the "safe" use of these ps's without having to get ahold of a serm is an attractive prospect in individuals without extensive connections.. just my buck o' five for freedom..


:rofl: seacrest out.. :rofl:

Seriously, use google with "tamoxifen citrate", and it takes just a few moments to find places.

I think that suppressive products shouldn't be allowed to be sold except in a boxed set that included PCT that was appropriate. Right now there are only a couple of possible true OTC PCT options that may work

 

[Red Dog]

I agree Easy, but just for the record I wasn't speaking from a personal point of view but more in the mindset of someone newer or less familiar with the whole topic.. seeing innappropriate suggestions for sketchy pct from newer individuals just leads me to believe their minds swayed by prospects of what sounds easiest ya know? Atleast that's what it looks like to me..

and yes that would be really nice to see a package deal like that, especially for less familiar users and such, i totally agree.. :thumbsup:

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Do you think its aromatizing at high doses? I don't see any reason the anti-e effects would stop at high doses.

 

[EasyEJL]

I agree Easy, but just for the record I wasn't speaking from a personal point of view but more in the mindset of someone newer or less familiar with the whole topic.. seeing innappropriate suggestions for sketchy post cycle therapy from newer individuals just leads me to believe their minds swayed by prospects of what sounds easiest ya know? Atleast that's what it looks like to me..

and yes that would be really nice to see a package deal like that, especially for less familiar users and such, i totally agree.. :thumbsup:

Yeah, its a pity. The only true OTC PCTs right now that have real promise are high dose resveratrol based stuff. Dermacrine Sustain, Post Cycle Support, 6-oxo extreme or any of the straight resveratrol products. I'm still not sure I would suggest these to anyone else, but I'm planning on dermacrine sustain without a SERM for my upcoming cycle. I'll have a serm on hand tho in case the poop hits the oscillating blades. I'll also be doing a pre-cycle and post-PCT blood tests and if the post is still low i'll do a light nolva round then.