Someone I Know Did a Fina Cycle Recently...with NO PCT

magx

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He did a cycle of Fina recently and against my advice, didn't even do a post cycle therapy.

He kept all his gains, and had no side effects either during or after the cycle. None.

So he's either the excpetion to the rule, or he's onto something and post cycle therapy is really a waste, as his body seemed to naturally restore itself.

Now, I am in NO WAY saying I would advise anyone not to do post cycle therapy, I told him he's crazy, but I thought about it a bit and perhaps the HPTA can and does restore itself just fine without any "help." I mean, docotrs don't prescribe anything for coming off of steroids for medical reasons (say Prednisone for example). You just slowly taper the dosage down and you're done.

I am not saying I believe any of this......I am just putting it out there. Personally, I think he's crazy, and really lucky...but then again, who knows..........


Oh, and since I brought up tapering corticosteroids like Prednisone, why aren't oral anabolics like M1T, Superdol, Dbol etc etc tapered? Wouldn't tapering help restore the HPTA activity?

And before I go let me reiterate: I AM NOT AT ALL recommending people don't use PCT products. I am just throwing this out there for discussion.
 
Travis

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I dont think I have seen many fina logs around here but I was thinking gyno was a common side of this stuff. Maybe Im wrong.

PCT is one of those better safe than sorry things imo.
 

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I dont think I have seen many fina logs around here but I was thinking gyno was a common side of this stuff. Maybe Im wrong.

post cycle therapy is one of those better safe than sorry things imo.

I have no idea myself, I know nothing about fina
 
Jayhawkk

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PCT is there for recovering more than just the HPTA as well as minimizing loss of gains during the recovery process. PCT wasn't always around and is really a relatively new standard. You can still watch tv on a black and white 13" screen but if you had access to a 51"HDTV would you?
 

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post cycle therapy is there for recovering more than just the HPTA as well as minimizing loss of gains during the recovery process. PCT wasn't always around and is really a relatively new standard. You can still watch tv on a black and white 13" screen but if you had access to a 51"HDTV would you?
Of course not, and I don't ;)

I am just amazed that he seemingly escaped ANY possible problems, ranging from lost gains to gyno.

NOTHING.
 
Jayhawkk

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I was on up to 40mg of M1T back when it first came out and I was ignorant of pretty much anything and didn't do PCT with it. I didn't get gyno and gept a decent amount of the size. I lost a lot of strength though and alter found out I was tearing my insides up.
 
Travis

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Of course not, and I don't ;)

I am just amazed that he seemingly escaped ANY possible problems, ranging from lost gains to gyno.

NOTHING.
There is still a possibility of the "delayed gyno" if your looking for a "told ya so" against him (but I doubt it since he's your friend). I have several friends bigger and more experienced then myself who routinely run oral cycles. They typically use no PCT and drink while using them. This sort of behavior is very uncommon around here while I personally think this is normal with the majority of the "gnc/completenutri/maxmuscle" crowd. Maybe not but I know these stores very rarely recommend PCT when pushing methyls....or at least around here that is.
 

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There is still a possibility of the "delayed gyno" if your looking for a "told ya so" against him (but I doubt it since he's your friend). I have several friends bigger and more experienced then myself who routinely run oral cycles. They typically use no post cycle therapy and drink while using them. This sort of behavior is very uncommon around here while I personally think this is normal with the majority of the "gnc/completenutri/maxmuscle" crowd. Maybe not but I know these stores very rarely recommend PCT when pushing methyls....or at least around here that is.
guy at the local supp. store here advocates no PCT for orals....

I tried to disagree with him one time but it got me nowhere
 
gotripped

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Dumb Idea. And shutdown is shutdown from AAS. Just because they taper corticosteroids doesn't work under the same principles as does AAS. Tapering down the dosage of AAS is irrelevant because when you are shutdown...you are shutdown... There aren't varying levels of "shutdown".
 

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Dumb Idea. And shutdown is shutdown from anabolic steroids. Just because they taper corticosteroids doesn't work under the same principles as does AAS. Tapering down the dosage of AAS is irrelevant because when you are shutdown...you are shutdown... There aren't varying levels of "shutdown".
makes sense
 
RisingAgainst

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I have seen this done with the select few at my gym who insist that they know everything. Needless to say, most of them are big, and most of them 'appear to be in good health' but, truth be told, liver chalk is not something fun to talk about, nor is testicular atrophy that becomes permanent. I firmly believe in 'survival of the fittest', I have ranted about this in several public events and the criticism of such rants is astounding, BUT think of it this way: If you try to help, and this person is not listening, fine. Allow him to do things his way, and later on down the road when something goes wrong, better yet IF something goes wrong, (it may not, just saying.) you have already spoken to him about the possibilities and he has ignored your advice. I also happen to believe that if we allow drug abusers to do so at their own free will, eventually they die off leaving our world a bit better... but this theory is also applied to ABUSE of hormonal substances in this case.
 
aspire210

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Dumb Idea. And shutdown is shutdown from anabolic steroids. Just because they taper corticosteroids doesn't work under the same principles as does AAS. Tapering down the dosage of AAS is irrelevant because when you are shutdown...you are shutdown... There aren't varying levels of "shutdown".
Actually this is wrong. You can be suppressed which means lower than normal output of endogenous testosterone. Like anavar, it doesn't cause "shutdown" it causes suppression. Your LH levels might be halfed, but they are still there. Few steroids TOTALLY shut you down. This is evident from the "on cycle" babies that occur sometimes. I believe chad was on tren and managed to have a kid, thats with no HCG. Tapering actually does work, in fact I could write out my PCT for you and I would bet you would recover 2x as fast with my method than with yours. The reason tapering works has to do with SHBG and cortisol levels. Cortisol elevates with androgen usage and is very catabolic, tapering down lowers cortisol going into PCT. Also, high estrogen raises SHBG, lowering the amount of free testosterone. I generally load up on AI's or switch to something that doesn't aromatize prior to PCT. Please don't just report what you hear on other boards from "gurus" who don't really get how the endocrine system works.
 

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Actually this is wrong. You can be suppressed which means lower than normal output of endogenous testosterone. Like anavar, it doesn't cause "shutdown" it causes suppression. Your LH levels might be halfed, but they are still there. Few steroids TOTALLY shut you down. This is evident from the "on cycle" babies that occur sometimes. I believe chad was on tren and managed to have a kid, thats with no HCG. Tapering actually does work, in fact I could write out my post cycle therapy for you and I would bet you would recover 2x as fast with my method than with yours. The reason tapering works has to do with SHBG and cortisol levels. Cortisol elevates with androgen usage and is very catabolic, tapering down lowers cortisol going into PCT. Also, high estrogen raises SHBG, lowering the amount of free testosterone. I generally load up on AI's or switch to something that doesn't aromatize prior to PCT. Please don't just report what you hear on other boards from "gurus" who don't really get how the endocrine system works.

Ownage :nutkick:
 
Travis

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Actually this is wrong. You can be suppressed which means lower than normal output of endogenous testosterone. Like anavar, it doesn't cause "shutdown" it causes suppression. Your LH levels might be halfed, but they are still there. Few steroids TOTALLY shut you down. This is evident from the "on cycle" babies that occur sometimes. I believe chad was on tren and managed to have a kid, thats with no HCG. Tapering actually does work, in fact I could write out my post cycle therapy for you and I would bet you would recover 2x as fast with my method than with yours. The reason tapering works has to do with SHBG and cortisol levels. Cortisol elevates with androgen usage and is very catabolic, tapering down lowers cortisol going into post cycle therapy. Also, high estrogen raises SHBG, lowering the amount of free testosterone. I generally load up on AI's or switch to something that doesn't aromatize prior to PCT. Please don't just report what you hear on other boards from "gurus" who don't really get how the endocrine system works.
Interesting. Your post makes sense but why do so many not recommend this protocol? Do you use a pyramid approach? Even with oral only cycles?
 
RisingAgainst

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Interesting. Your post makes sense but why do so many not recommend this protocol? Do you use a pyramid approach? Even with oral only cycles?
A lot of people do use the taper down methods, I personally always have, sometimes if I am using a product for the first time, I taper up as well. I haven't been on this particular forum long enough to know if this is widely discussed but it is 'common knowledge' on others.
 
Travis

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A lot of people do use the taper down methods, I personally always have, sometimes if I am using a product for the first time, I taper up as well. I haven't been on this particular forum long enough to know if this is widely discussed but it is 'common knowledge' on others.
Yes I've noticed this on other forums as well but I was thinking that it not very common here at AM. Perhaps I am wrong?

I personally ramped up only and I am having a great PCT. But this was only my first cycle so experience is limited...
 
RisingAgainst

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Yes I've noticed this on other forums as well but I was thinking that it not very common here at AM. Perhaps I am wrong?

I personally ramped up only and I am having a great post cycle therapy. But this was only my first cycle so experience is limited...
Tapering down torwards then end is effective, give it a shot on your next cycle.
 
Dr_C2

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Actually this is wrong. You can be suppressed which means lower than normal output of endogenous testosterone. Like anavar, it doesn't cause "shutdown" it causes suppression. Your LH levels might be halfed, but they are still there. Few steroids TOTALLY shut you down. This is evident from the "on cycle" babies that occur sometimes. I believe chad was on tren and managed to have a kid, thats with no HCG. Tapering actually does work, in fact I could write out my post cycle therapy for you and I would bet you would recover 2x as fast with my method than with yours. The reason tapering works has to do with SHBG and cortisol levels. Cortisol elevates with androgen usage and is very catabolic, tapering down lowers cortisol going into post cycle therapy. Also, high estrogen raises SHBG, lowering the amount of free testosterone. I generally load up on AI's or switch to something that doesn't aromatize prior to PCT. Please don't just report what you hear on other boards from "gurus" who don't really get how the endocrine system works.
Aspire has two made two correct points.

For that matter, there are two points in his post that need to be repeated:

First, there is a big difference b/t what many folks call "shutdown" and "suppression."

The difference is important and is specific to the individual and compound in question.

Second, when we are actually discussing "suppression" YES, the best method is to taper out the compounds. The body will reach natural equilibrium much faster when tapering the suppressor as opposed to discontinuation.

What we are really discussing is the complex interaction of the ENTIRE endocrine system not just the singular aspect of the HTPA and the associated arugements that control said relationship. Throw a rock into a pond and the ripples affect the entire pond not just the point of impact.
 
bLacKjAck.

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Aspire has two made two correct points.

For that matter, there are two points in his post that need to be repeated:

First, there is a big difference b/t what many folks call "shutdown" and "suppression."

The difference is important and is specific to the individual and compound in question.

Second, when we are actually discussing "suppression" YES, the best method is to taper out the compounds. The body will reach natural equilibrium much faster when tapering the suppressor as opposed to discontinuation.

What we are really discussing is the complex interaction of the ENTIRE endocrine system not just the singular aspect of the HTPA and the associated arugements that control said relationship. Throw a rock into a pond and the ripples affect the entire pond not just the point of impact.

I just love listening to this man speak. If he ever comes out with supps. I am on it like white on rice:thumbsup:
 

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Aspire has two made two correct points.

For that matter, there are two points in his post that need to be repeated:

First, there is a big difference b/t what many folks call "shutdown" and "suppression."

The difference is important and is specific to the individual and compound in question.

Second, when we are actually discussing "suppression" YES, the best method is to taper out the compounds. The body will reach natural equilibrium much faster when tapering the suppressor as opposed to discontinuation.

What we are really discussing is the complex interaction of the ENTIRE endocrine system not just the singular aspect of the HTPA and the associated arugements that control said relationship. Throw a rock into a pond and the ripples affect the entire pond not just the point of impact.
So what I get from this is that if you're not shutdown, but supressed, tapering is actually useful.

So the question is then, how do you know if you are suoressed vs shutdown?

And would tapering be applied to orals like M1T and Superdrol, like someone above asked?
 
aspire210

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So what I get from this is that if you're not shutdown, but supressed, tapering is actually useful.

So the question is then, how do you know if you are suoressed vs shutdown?

And would tapering be applied to orals like M1T and Superdrol, like someone above asked?
generally speaking, only a few AAS will shut you down. Test, Deca, Tren and Anadrol mainly. M1T will as well, as supersoldier posted blood work for this, and it did so VERY quickly. Generally speaking, progestins and high androgens that aromatize will shut you down or at least, suppress you the worst.
 
aspire210

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Interesting. Your post makes sense but why do so many not recommend this protocol? Do you use a pyramid approach? Even with oral only cycles?
To be honest, I don't really do much in the way of orals anymore. Maybe dbol in low doses to kick start a bulker, but thats about it. I recommend tapering up for the same reason you taper down. Cortisol levels rise with the androgen levels, tapering up keeps you one step ahead. Also, SHBG rises with estrogen levels, so if you have an aromatizing compound, tapering up will again keep you one step ahead. Also, you can slowly increase the dosage to find the right one for you as well. 30mg of Dbol makes me an animal and I actually don't retain water, but 50mg and my appetite and sex drive are dead, constant lower back pumps and all I want to do is sleep.
 
Chad

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To be honest, I don't really do much in the way of orals anymore. Maybe dbol in low doses to kick start a bulker, but thats about it. I recommend tapering up for the same reason you taper down. Cortisol levels rise with the androgen levels, tapering up keeps you one step ahead. Also, SHBG rises with estrogen levels, so if you have an aromatizing compound, tapering up will again keep you one step ahead. Also, you can slowly increase the dosage to find the right one for you as well. 30mg of Dbol makes me an animal and I actually don't retain water, but 50mg and my appetite and sex drive are dead, constant lower back pumps and all I want to do is sleep.
ever done anadrol?
 
Dr_C2

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So what I get from this is that if you're not shutdown, but supressed, tapering is actually useful.

So the question is then, how do you know if you are suoressed vs shutdown?

And would tapering be applied to orals like M1T and Superdrol, like someone above asked?
After 3 weeks @ 20mg ED SD is a marginal suppressor. My unadulterated test levels are around 500 ng/dl. After 3 weeks of SD @ 20mg ED (the end of the cycle), I showed 399 ng/dl.

So yes, there was some statistically significant suppression in my case of n=1. No the most reliable form of evidence - anecdotal but it is what I have consistently seen with several other subjects as well.

There are a number of us that have stated that in this regard SD is not that "harsh" of an oral and when specifically referring to suppression I still believe that is true.

The problem with tapering an oral like SD is that it it potential extends the cycle well beyond 4 weeks. Yes, it may benefit by the suppression aspect but an extend cycle of SD contributes to significant level stress. So, in regard to SD you may be in a situation of picking your poison. Do you elect to move in to PCT with partial to significant suppression or do you move into PCT with less suppression but significantly more liver stress from the additional weeks of SD tapering.

I don’t have a general answer for that question. That’s were it becomes individually specific and one would need to assess the equation based on his own blood work.
 

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After 3 weeks @ 20mg ED superdrol is a marginal suppressor. My unadulterated test levels are around 500 ng/dl. After 3 weeks of SD @ 20mg ED (the end of the cycle), I showed 399 ng/dl.

So yes, there was some statistically significant suppression in my case of n=1. No the most reliable form of evidence - anecdotal but it is what I have consistently seen with several other subjects as well.

There are a number of us that have stated that in this regard SD is not that "harsh" of an oral and when specifically referring to suppression I still believe that is true.

The problem with tapering an oral like SD is that it it potential extends the cycle well beyond 4 weeks. Yes, it may benefit by the suppression aspect but an extend cycle of SD contributes to significant level stress. So, in regard to SD you may be in a situation of picking your poison. Do you elect to move in to post cycle therapy with partial to significant suppression or do you move into PCT with less suppression but significantly more liver stress from the additional weeks of SD tapering.

I don’t have a general answer for that question. That’s were it becomes individually specific and one would need to assess the equation based on his own blood work.


VERY interesting. I would have expected your test levels to be FAR lower after 3 weeks of SD. I wonder how you would have fared had the compound been M1T as oposed to SD.......

Well, for that cycle, what did you do for PCT? it seems to me (with my limited knowledge) that since you had experienced significant but low supression, that you could have gotten away with a very "light" PCT.......or even none at all???? Would a SERM really be required if your test levels hadn't dropped very much?
 
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If you talk to oldtimers that used to take steroids or started taking them a long time ago. They usually won't have any idea what you are talking about when you say pct. I work with a couple of guys that took alot of seroids in the late 80's early 90's and they all recomend tapering at the end of a cycle. That is all they did back then pct was unheard of. So there is probabaly some merit to tappering down then doing a pct when doing longer injectable cycles. But I agree with DR. c2 when he says that with the short oral cycles it probably wouldn't work so good. Maybe ramp up for the first 3 weeks then back down for the last week. I don't know if this would be enough to make a difference or if you would just be cutting your gains short. Just a thought.
 
Dr_C2

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VERY interesting. I would have expected your test levels to be FAR lower after 3 weeks of superdrol. I wonder how you would have fared had the compound been M1T as oposed to superdrol.......

Well, for that cycle, what did you do for post cycle therapy? it seems to me (with my limited knowledge) that since you had experienced significant but low supression, that you could have gotten away with a very "light" post cycle therapy.......or even none at all???? Would a SERM really be required if your test levels hadn't dropped very much?
Never touched M1T - IMO maybe the worst PH that was ever available. Again, that is JUST MY OPINION. As sure as I have written that, someone will say "What about..."

First, understand that ALL of my oral cycles are only 3 weeks. I do this b/c I have learned that the 4th week for me is simply an exercise in the law of diminishing returns. An extra pound or two is not worth the additional overhead on my liver, lipids, et al.

Yes, my PCT is what most would consider "light." For me, I use SERM and AI only. HOWEVER, I am NOT recommending this for ANYONE ELSE!

It is what I have found works for me. My lipid profile has never exceed 175 nor have my liver enzymes ever remainded elevated for more than the time on cycle + time on PCT.
 
RisingAgainst

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My bad, wrong post. But anyways, nice info Dr. C.
 

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