plans for the future.....

[flw]

I have 2 bottles of Hemadrol sitting around that I am working towards taking sometime in the future; I was planning to take it a few months ago but decided it was wise to wait, still working out naturally. I worked out consistently in high school and was about 165 (10% fat) and in excellent shape especially cardiovascular/stamina wise when I graduated. Stayed in good shape for about a year then started to loose is a bit, always stayed relatively active though and continued to lift slowly putting on a bit of muscle in the upper body but loosing it in the legs. BTW, I am 6 ft tall and 27 years old.
Until about 2 years ago I fluctuated from about 180 to190 at about 14-15% fat and worked out off and on then I had a bad accident and dropped to about 170 at 15% fat while in the hospital for 2 weeks.
I just finished a natural bulking cycle after fully recovering from the accident, getting up to 190 at about 13% and then getting to a healthy strong 175 at 7% b.f. Now I am 215 lbs (13% fat) and just staring a cutting phase. My goal is to get down to about 6% then add another 20 lbs of lean muscle without getting much higher than 10% bf ever again, I don’t like letting my bf get to where it is now, makes me feel too slow and I don’t like how I look above 10%! Going from 175 to 200 recently was great, I stayed relatively lean and put on almost 20 lbs of muscle in a short period of time, going from 200 to 215 I only put on approx another 5 lbs of muscle and 10 lbs of fat.


When I do the Hemadrol, maybe in the fall or next spring I am planning on a 5 to 6 week cycle along with Cycle Support, Policosinol, Coenzyme Q10 and my normal omegas, cal, mag, C, and maybe a multi vitamin. Diet will be clean and full of good proteins, whole grains and healthy fats.
Hemadrol
Wk 1: 50mg
Wk 2: 50mg
Wk 3: 50mg
Wk 4: 75mg
Wk 5: 75mg
Wk 6: not sure if I should do a wk 6
Or
Wk 1: 50mg
Wk 2: 50mg
Wk 3: 75mg
Wk 4: 75mg
Wk 5: 75mg
Wk 6: not sure if I should do a wk 6

post cycle therapy will consist of:
Tamoxifen ramped inversely to Rebound Reloaded along with DHEA, ZMA-T, Fenugreek and above mentioned Cycle support sups.
I was thinking like this:
post cycle therapy day 1: nolva 60mg + atd ?mg
post cycle therapy day 2: nolva 40mg + atd ?mg
post cycle therapy day 3: nolva 20mg + atd ?mg
post cycle therapy day 4-7: atd ?mg + 1.5g fenu + 100mg dhea
post cycle therapy day 8-14: atd ?mg + 2g fenu + 75mg dhea
post cycle therapy day 15-21: atd ?mg + 2.5g fenu + 50mg dhea
post cycle therapy days 22-28: atd ?mg + 3g fenu + 25mg dhea
post cycle therapy days 28-35: should I continue PCT for this period if I do a 6 week cycle?


The only uncertainty I have as of now is how much Rebound reloaded to take, I was planning on ending the Rebound abruptly, not tapering it off but I have not found any dosing info in logs and posts on the forum. I think there is 90 tablets in the bottle.
I have also started reading a bit about Toremifene and wanted to consider that instead of the Tamoxifen but I don’t really know anything about it yet so any input on it would be appreciated.

 

[flw]

Bump, anyone have any input?

 

[RisingAgainst]

I have 2 bottles of Hemadrol sitting around that I am working towards taking sometime in the future; I was planning to take it a few months ago but decided it was wise to wait, still working out naturally. I worked out consistently in high school and was about 165 (10% fat) and in excellent shape especially cardiovascular/stamina wise when I graduated. Stayed in good shape for about a year then started to loose is a bit, always stayed relatively active though and continued to lift slowly putting on a bit of muscle in the upper body but loosing it in the legs. BTW, I am 6 ft tall and 27 years old.
Until about 2 years ago I fluctuated from about 180 to190 at about 14-15% fat and worked out off and on then I had a bad accident and dropped to about 170 at 15% fat while in the hospital for 2 weeks.
I just finished a natural bulking cycle after fully recovering from the accident, getting up to 190 at about 13% and then getting to a healthy strong 175 at 7% b.f. Now I am 215 lbs (13% fat) and just staring a cutting phase. My goal is to get down to about 6% then add another 20 lbs of lean muscle without getting much higher than 10% bf ever again, I don’t like letting my bf get to where it is now, makes me feel too slow and I don’t like how I look above 10%! Going from 175 to 200 recently was great, I stayed relatively lean and put on almost 20 lbs of muscle in a short period of time, going from 200 to 215 I only put on approx another 5 lbs of muscle and 10 lbs of fat.


When I do the Hemadrol, maybe in the fall or next spring I am planning on a 5 to 6 week cycle along with Cycle Support, Policosinol, Coenzyme Q10 and my normal omegas, cal, mag, C, and maybe a multi vitamin. Diet will be clean and full of good proteins, whole grains and healthy fats.
Hemadrol
Wk 1: 50mg
Wk 2: 50mg
Wk 3: 50mg
Wk 4: 75mg
Wk 5: 75mg
Wk 6: not sure if I should do a wk 6
Or
Wk 1: 50mg
Wk 2: 50mg
Wk 3: 75mg
Wk 4: 75mg
Wk 5: 75mg
Wk 6: not sure if I should do a wk 6

post cycle therapy will consist of:
Tamoxifen ramped inversely to Rebound Reloaded along with DHEA, ZMA-T, Fenugreek and above mentioned Cycle support sups.
I was thinking like this:
post cycle therapy day 1: nolva 60mg + atd ?mg
post cycle therapy day 2: nolva 40mg + atd ?mg
post cycle therapy day 3: nolva 20mg + atd ?mg
post cycle therapy day 4-7: atd ?mg + 1.5g fenu + 100mg dhea
post cycle therapy day 8-14: atd ?mg + 2g fenu + 75mg dhea
post cycle therapy day 15-21: atd ?mg + 2.5g fenu + 50mg dhea
post cycle therapy days 22-28: atd ?mg + 3g fenu + 25mg dhea
post cycle therapy days 28-35: should I continue post cycle therapy for this period if I do a 6 week cycle?


The only uncertainty I have as of now is how much Rebound reloaded to take, I was planning on ending the Rebound abruptly, not tapering it off but I have not found any dosing info in logs and posts on the forum. I think there is 90 tablets in the bottle.
I have also started reading a bit about Toremifene and wanted to consider that instead of the Tamoxifen but I don’t really know anything about it yet so any input on it would be appreciated.

I wouldn't go past 40mgs of tamoxifen during the post cycle time frame, a better option would be toremifene as you mentioned. Nolva is slowly becoming a poorer and poorer choice based on new evidence of hepatoxicity and igf related side effects.

I believe the rebound reloaded to be 25mgs? A taper up to 75mgs is fine. Your PCT time should reciprocate your cycle's time. IE: 4week cycle = 4 week pct (this doesn't apply to all cycles, but for this one it does)

I could see better efficacy from your cycle if you ran a 6 weeker @ 50mgs as there is no way to split your dose correctly with EST's Hemadrol. Another option is to increase the dose to 100mgs of Hemadrol/day which is although taboo for some, not unheard of. I suggest staying within the 4 week range if you do so.

I suggest picking up some SAMe for your liver to be used post cycle to recover your liver a bit where silymarin/NAC doesn't quite foot the bill (only if you run the 100mg/30days). Is the additional Policosanol due to high LDL cholesterol? Nicain would be a better option for you if this ISNT the case. Your goals are a bit extreme for a prohormone cycle, these aren't magical ya know.. lol jk Considered the addition of some ZOL?

 

[flw]

Thank you very much for your input. The rebound reloaded says; Aromatrix, a proprietary blind of bla, bla, bal, 400 mg per serving. I was kind of assuming that I would start with 1 pill and work my way up to 3, that would make sense with what I have read and the 90 pills in the bottle. I will definitely get something further for my liver support and my LDL is a little high and my HDL is low. Am I correct in assuming that all the stuff I am planning on taking is only hard on the liver or is their some stress to the kidneys as well, that is the thing I am most concerned about.
I know that I probably won’t reach my goals with one cycle of hemadrol, I plan on getting closer naturally before I do my cycle. Lastly what is ZOL?
Thanks again, I really appreciate your input!

I wouldn't go past 40mgs of tamoxifen during the post cycle time frame, a better option would be toremifene as you mentioned. Nolva is slowly becoming a poorer and poorer choice based on new evidence of hepatoxicity and igf related side effects.

I believe the rebound reloaded to be 25mgs? A taper up to 75mgs is fine. Your post cycle therapy time should reciprocate your cycle's time. IE: 4week cycle = 4 week post cycle therapy (this doesn't apply to all cycles, but for this one it does)

I could see better efficacy from your cycle if you ran a 6 weeker @ 50mgs as there is no way to split your dose correctly with EST's Hemadrol. Another option is to increase the dose to 100mgs of Hemadrol/day which is although taboo for some, not unheard of. I suggest staying within the 4 week range if you do so.

I suggest picking up some SAMe for your liver to be used post cycle to recover your liver a bit where silymarin/NAC doesn't quite foot the bill (only if you run the 100mg/30days). Is the additional Policosanol due to high LDL cholesterol? Nicain would be a better option for you if this ISNT the case. Your goals are a bit extreme for a prohormone cycle, these aren't magical ya know.. lol jk Considered the addition of some ZOL?

 

[PumpingIron]

Why are you only running nolva for 3 days?

 

[stxnas]

First I want to say thanks for supporting AI by including Cycle Support. That being said, you might want to look over the ingredients in Cycle Support again. You won't need to add Policosonol or CoQ10. Policosonol is included in Cycle Support. CoQ10 is not needed b/c Idebenone is in Cycle Support, which is an anologue of CoQ10. Ideb was chosen b/c it's effects are very similar to CoQ10 without the pro-oxidant properties (that's a good thing).

The celery seed in Cycle Support will help with kidney functions, but I don't think it would hurt to pick up something like Cranberry concentrate if you're worried about that.

I believe Rising Against was referring to Rebound XT not Rebound Reloaded when he said one cap was 25mg. RXT is ATD and RR is 6-bromo with some other ingredients (both are anti-aromotase inhibitors). I think tapering off is a better option than abruptly stopping, but that's my opinion and there are many out there!

Last, but not least, Zol is referring to the prostazonol clones. It's a weal unmethylated cousin of winny. There are a few products that are out there, but they are getting harder and harder to find: Mega-Zol, Winztrol, Orastan-E and maybe a few others.

EDIT: PP brought up a good question while I was typing. Your SERM should be ran for a few weeks. Maybe something like this--> 40/40/20/10. Just a suggestion for a four week PCT.

 

[RisingAgainst]

First I want to say thanks for supporting AI by including Cycle Support. That being said, you might want to look over the ingredients in Cycle Support again. You won't need to add Policosonol or CoQ10. Policosonol is included in Cycle Support. CoQ10 is not needed b/c Idebenone is in Cycle Support, which is an anologue of CoQ10. Ideb was chosen b/c it's effects are very similar to CoQ10 without the pro-oxidant properties (that's a good thing).

The celery seed in Cycle Support will help with kidney functions, but I don't think it would hurt to pick up something like Cranberry concentrate if you're worried about that.

I believe Rising Against was referring to Rebound XT not Rebound Reloaded when he said one cap was 25mg. RXT is ATD and RR is 6-bromo with some other ingredients (both are anti-aromotase inhibitors). I think tapering off is a better option than abruptly stopping, but that's my opinion and there are many out there!

Last, but not least, Zol is referring to the prostazonol clones. It's a weal unmethylated cousin of winny. There are a few products that are out there, but they are getting harder and harder to find: Mega-Zol, Winztrol, Orastan-E and maybe a few others.

EDIT: PP brought up a good question while I was typing. Your SERM should be ran for a few weeks. Maybe something like this--> 40/40/20/10. Just a suggestion for a four week PCT.

Good catch, it was a long night last night

Anyways, the additional policosanol is why I asked about your cholesterol levels. Niacin will help raise HDL to an extent which is a good thing while on cycle. The celery will also help a bit with blood pressure.

 

[flw]

Here is where I got most of my data for my post cycle therapy, specifically post 27 and if I remember correctly there is further info later in the thread if you feel like reading.
PCT products - What you need and why - Bodybuilding.com Forums
I just like the idea of using as little nolva as possible.
I would still have extra on hand in case any symptons gyno showed up. do you think this information in incorrect?
thanks, flw

Why are you only running nolva for 3 days?

 

[flw]

Thanks for your input! So would taking CoQ10 with the Cycle Support be toxic or bad in any way or just overkill? The reason I have listed Policosonol separate is because I read that it should be taken twice a day at a dosage of 20mg/day and I was only going to be taking one serving of Cycle Support/day so I thought I would add another serving of Policosonol, is this info incorrect? I chose Rebound Reloaded over Rebound XT because I have read that RXT kills your libido and RR helps keep in up and running. Do you think I should have gone with RXT or will RR do the trick of getting my bodies production back up and running as well as RXT? As for my data on SERMS take a look at the link in my last post, that is where I got some of my info and why I have listed my post cycle therapy the way it is, specifically post 27 and if I remember correctly there is further info later in the thread if you feel like reading. I would appreciate any more info on this as well, I am still learning and would like to get the correct info.
Thanks, flw

First I want to say thanks for supporting AI by including Cycle Support. That being said, you might want to look over the ingredients in Cycle Support again. You won't need to add Policosonol or CoQ10. Policosonol is included in Cycle Support. CoQ10 is not needed b/c Idebenone is in Cycle Support, which is an anologue of CoQ10. Ideb was chosen b/c it's effects are very similar to CoQ10 without the pro-oxidant properties (that's a good thing).

The celery seed in Cycle Support will help with kidney functions, but I don't think it would hurt to pick up something like Cranberry concentrate if you're worried about that.

I believe Rising Against was referring to Rebound XT not Rebound Reloaded when he said one cap was 25mg. RXT is ATD and RR is 6-bromo with some other ingredients (both are anti-aromotase inhibitors). I think tapering off is a better option than abruptly stopping, but that's my opinion and there are many out there!

Last, but not least, Zol is referring to the prostazonol clones. It's a weal unmethylated cousin of winny. There are a few products that are out there, but they are getting harder and harder to find: Mega-Zol, Winztrol, Orastan-E and maybe a few others.

EDIT: PP brought up a good question while I was typing. Your SERM should be ran for a few weeks. Maybe something like this--> 40/40/20/10. Just a suggestion for a four week PCT.

 

[stxnas]

Why only one scoop per day? One scoop is suggested for pre-loading two weeks ahead of cycle and when taking for daily healthy. Two scoops provides the necessary amounts needed while ON and during post cycle therapy. I think the extra CoQ10 would just be overkill if you were to dose Cycle Support as suggested.

You're choice of AI is fine. RR was RXTs replacement for the reasons you mentioned. As far as the SERM goes and the link you provided...well, that's the first I have heard it put that way. I would just do a lot more research and come to my own conclusion on this if I were you. How about you forget about nolva and look up toremifene. That seems to be taking the place of nolva and clomid as the preferred SERM for post cycle therapy.

 

[flw]

I will do the cycle support 2x daily then, thanks! I have been reading a little about toremifene and I am definitely thinking that I will use it instead of the Tamoxifen at this point.
PS. Which brand of prostazonol clones do you suggest, thanks again.

Why only one scoop per day? One scoop is suggested for pre-loading two weeks ahead of cycle and when taking for daily healthy. Two scoops provides the necessary amounts needed while ON and during post cycle therapy. I think the extra CoQ10 would just be overkill if you were to dose Cycle Support as suggested.

You're choice of AI is fine. RR was RXTs replacement for the reasons you mentioned. As far as the SERM goes and the link you provided...well, that's the first I have heard it put that way. I would just do a lot more research and come to my own conclusion on this if I were you. How about you forget about nolva and look up toremifene. That seems to be taking the place of nolva and clomid as the preferred SERM for post cycle therapy.

 

[flw]

RisingAgainst, what brand of Zol do you suggest and when and how is it taken?
Thanks,
flw

 

[RisingAgainst]

RisingAgainst, what brand of Zol do you suggest and when and how is it taken?
Thanks,
flw

Try some Juggernaut Nutrition Winztrol @ 1.25mgs/pound of body weight.

 

[stxnas]

Juggernaut's is the only one that I know of right now that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Do some research of course, but fwir, zol products will shut you down as well as cause lethargy. It might not be worth adding.

 

[PumpingIron]

Yea, ZOL would be the best, IMO...I don't know if you can find it though.

I've always heard good thigns about juggernaut.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Yea, ZOL would be the best, IMO...I don't know if you can find it though.

I've always heard good thigns about juggernaut.

Juggernaut is avaible I personally don't like running zol to often, the aggression and lethargy are very annoying.. I'm pissed off, but to lazy to do anything about it.. so I'm more upset than I was to begin with... it's a vicious circle..

 

[PumpingIron]

Different strokes. I loved it. It hardened me up great. Its rough as hell on the joints, but never gave me lethargy or aggression. I like to run it pretty high for prolonged periods...like 5 weeks or so.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Different strokes. I loved it. It hardened me up great. Its rough as hell on the joints, but never gave me lethargy or aggression. I like to run it pretty high for prolonged periods...like 5 weeks or so.

I did have joint problems as well, every time, (also mentioned it in my log) The lethargy wasnt unbearable, but there nonetheless, good product though, I will continue using it.

 

[flw]

How is it hard on the joints? Just stiffness and aching or does it cause damage? I had an ACL, MCL and LCL reconstruction almost 2 years ago, would that be an issue?

Different strokes. I loved it. It hardened me up great. Its rough as hell on the joints, but never gave me lethargy or aggression. I like to run it pretty high for prolonged periods...like 5 weeks or so.

 

[flw]

Thanks RisingAgainst.

 

[RisingAgainst]

How is it hard on the joints? Just stiffness and aching or does it cause damage? I had an ACL, MCL and LCL reconstruction almost 2 years ago, would that be an issue?

Hard on the joint because it is a VERY dry agent. Even stacked with wet compounds I had some stiffness going on. Countermeasures include:

Cissus (didnt seem to help as much for me, works great for anything but dry aches)

Celadrine

Glucosamine/Chondroitin (allergies to shellfish? don't use it)

MSM - I'm biased against this, but it does work.

WATER... - best solution, drink 2+ gallons/day minimum.

 

[flw]

Aside from shutting me down would Winztrol be hard on the kidneys or liver? would I just take 2.7 grams (1.25mg x 216lbs) in one dose every morning or evening for the same period as the Hemadrol?

 

[stxnas]

It's not methylated, so no on the liver. I'm not sure about the kidney aspect though.

 

[RisingAgainst]

It's not methylated, so no on the liver. I'm not sure about the kidney aspect though.

It still elevates liver values, despite being non methylated. Kidneys and liver are affected in one way or another by almost all oral phs. 2.7 rounded up is 300mgs/day or 6 caps/day

 

[PumpingIron]

300/day is pretty high to start with. I'd start around 150 or 100 and work up.

Fish Oil is another good thing to keep the joints lubed.

Water is key, RA hit the nail on the head there.

And stretch good.


As liver values are going to get a little worse. 6 Weeks on this at 150 to 400mgs ED with proper ancillaries should not cause any major problems

 

[stxnas]

It still elevates liver values, despite being non methylated. Kidneys and liver are affected in one way or another by almost all oral phs. 2.7 rounded up is 300mgs/day or 6 caps/day

Yeah, but so can a consistant diet that is high in protein. I was referring in comparison to something like superdrol, pheraplex, or even havoc/epi...but yes, you are right to that effect.:thumbsup:

 

[flw]

Cool, thanks everyone for all your knowledge! Sounds like we have a pretty good consensus that Hemadrol and Zol would be a good first cycle. I'm thinking probably 4 weeks instead of 6 at this point. What do you all think as far as dosages? I would like to up the dose of the hemadrol a little as I know it takes for ever to take effect. Would it be unheard of or bad to do something like 50, 100, 50, 50?? That way I could get the levels up high enough to take effect sooner than sometime in the 3rd. I am not completely comfortable with gong going up to 100 for very long, if I could do 75 for the last 2 weeks I would. I was also planning on getting labs done before and at the half point and maybe at the end as well to check my kidney and liver values so this way they would be checked right after gong 100 for a week.
With the Epistane by Juggernaut Nutrition I could start at 150 and work my way up to 300 by the 2nd week then maybe stay there for the remainder. Now if I really hate the lethargy or joint problems of the Epistane can I just quit taking it and continue with the Hemadrol or do I have to keep on going to PCT once I start? I would take all the support sups mentioned above and PCT would be toremifene, some sort of ATD and maybe Anabolic Advanced Xtreme PCT or Cycle Support throughout PCT, what are all your thoughts on products for PCT, I would like to get some input from people who have done these substances before I make my FINAL decision.
Thanks again to everyone for your help I am learning a ton from you all!

 

[PumpingIron]

PCT sounds good. I'd drop the ATD and use Torem and AX's new product, personally.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Cool, thanks everyone for all your knowledge! Sounds like we have a pretty good consensus that Hemadrol and Zol would be a good first cycle. I'm thinking probably 4 weeks instead of 6 at this point. What do you all think as far as dosages? I would like to up the dose of the hemadrol a little as I know it takes for ever to take effect. Would it be unheard of or bad to do something like 50, 100, 50, 50?? That way I could get the levels up high enough to take effect sooner than sometime in the 3rd. I am not completely comfortable with gong going up to 100 for very long, if I could do 75 for the last 2 weeks I would. I was also planning on getting labs done before and at the half point and maybe at the end as well to check my kidney and liver values so this way they would be checked right after gong 100 for a week.
With the Epistane by Juggernaut Nutrition I could start at 150 and work my way up to 300 by the 2nd week then maybe stay there for the remainder. Now if I really hate the lethargy or joint problems of the Epistane can I just quit taking it and continue with the Hemadrol or do I have to keep on going to post cycle therapy once I start? I would take all the support sups mentioned above and PCT would be toremifene, some sort of ATD and maybe Anabolic Advanced Xtreme PCT or Cycle Support throughout PCT, what are all your thoughts on products for PCT, I would like to get some input from people who have done these substances before I make my FINAL decision.
Thanks again to everyone for your help I am learning a ton from you all!

Labs on cycle won't be of any use to you. Best times are pre/post/postpct.

Did you mean Winztrol?

If it gets to bad for you, drop the dose OR discontinue it's use. You can continue on the Hemadrol no problem. As this is your first cycle, you will be fine @50mgs of hemadrol, upping the dose will prove to do nothing but be detrimental to health.

I'm a big fan of AX's OLD P C T product, one of the better ATDs that didnt affect libido, the new one should be awesome.

 

[flw]

Yea I do mean Wintrol, sorry. so people don’t check labs half way through cycle to check and make sure everything is not too elevated, wouldn't that be safer? just trying to understand why people do the things they do.
thanks!

Labs on cycle won't be of any use to you. Best times are pre/post/postpct.

Did you mean Winztrol?

If it gets to bad for you, drop the dose OR discontinue it's use. You can continue on the Hemadrol no problem. As this is your first cycle, you will be fine @50mgs of hemadrol, upping the dose will prove to do nothing but be detrimental to health.

I'm a big fan of AX's OLD P C T product, one of the better ATDs that didnt affect libido, the new one should be awesome.

 

[flw]

Ok, sounds good, thanks!

post cycle therapy sounds good. I'd drop the ATD and use Torem and AX's new product, personally.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Yea I do mean Wintrol, sorry. so people don’t check labs half way through cycle to check and make sure everything is not too elevated, wouldn't that be safer? just trying to understand why people do the things they do.
thanks!

There's legitimate reasoning to do so, but you know what to expect of your values when on cycle, and if you have the proper supporting supplements, you *should* be fine. I prefer to have things done pre (for a baseline test), post cycle (to see the damages) and post pct to see if I corrected them or not.

 

[stxnas]

Hey Rising. Did you use AX P C T only for post cycle therapy or have you used it in a non-hormonal stack?

Just wondering b/c I have some and I'm debating on how to use it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Hey Rising. Did you use AX P C T for post cycle therapy or did you use it in a non-hormonal stack?

Just wondering b/c I have some and I'm debating on how to use it.

Thanks in advance.

During the PCT time frame. It doesn't kill libido at all. I would suggest waiting for the newer version though, it should be even better.