Clen. i hear ppl taking this..

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    Clen. i hear ppl taking this..


    whats the scoop on this. never herd or found much info on this. supposly raise your bodys temp,burn fat. ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by tek View Post
    whats the scoop on this. never herd or found much info on this. supposly raise your bodys temp,burn fat. ??
    Search function?
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    here it works well but stops working sumwhere after 3-4 weeks
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    im on it now and lis working well. getting a lot better cuts in my arms and mid section.
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    how long u been on it?
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    Wow, I never ride people for not searching but this is damn flagrant.
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    tek, Clen has been around probably longer than you've probably been alive. would have told you that and everything else your asking.
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    I know that I have had around 100 posts about clen. Does anyone search or read FAQs anymore??
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    I keep seeing Clen brought up. I really feel the more educated members should take initiative to inform people (especially the youngins) about the possible dangers of Clen. IMO, its much more unhealthy than anabolics.

    I posted this in a previous thread:
    ---

    Well, its that time of year again. I just wanted to add some info to this thread...food for thought. Dont get carried away with the Clen out there boys & girls.

    I would suggest some Albuterol over Clen. It is healthier and works comparably well. They are the same class of drug. It isnt as bad on the heart tissue. Albuterol clears the system quicker. It has no studies out there demonstrating permanent heart damage at low doses - Clen does... quite a few. Albuterol is also considered to be kinder on overall endurance (doesnt effect V02 Max negatively) where Clen can deliver a hit. It is speculated that the long half-life of Clen is what causes it to "build-up," so to speak, and cause more damage to the heart tissue.

    Try Volmax 8mg (also comes in 4mg), sustained release 2x a day. (12-16 seems to be effective for a 200lb male) Also VERY cheap...

    Clen needs to be retired. You will thank me when you're 60.

    J Appl Physiol. 2004 Dec 10; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

    {beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

    Burniston JG, Tan LB, Goldspink DF.

    Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom.

    High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg kg(-1), with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg(-1) . In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg kg(-1). Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively.
    This study shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans ingest this much clen quite often, for instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg.

    ABUSING either of these compounds is still not a good idea for the heart. Clen is banned in the U.S. for Asthma treatment. Albuterol is still RX'd, although sparingly.

    Personally, I would recommend Generic meridia (cheap, zaps the appetite & reduces cravings via serotonin) and Sesathin/DCP/TTA..maybe some t3...whatever you want. IMO, this is much healthier than slamming stims. Obviously you can add stims or t3 if you desire. You can pound all the clen you want, if your cals arent reduced its not going to matter much. The hard part for me has always been controlling diet and calorie restriction. The only real problematic side of Sibutramine (meridia) in healthy individuals is a slight increase in blood pressure. The only problem we see is when obese fat ****s with poor cardiovascular health take it. They are already on the verge of death and the BP increase can be too much. There have already been some fat lawsuits (pun INTENDED). Ironically, these are the ONLY people its supposed to be RX'd too. I tried it out mostly because I was curious. It has a fairly high incidence of headaches but I never had any at all. I did sleep like **** for the first 2-3 nights though until I adjusted. Other than that, I had no other sides at all. Zaps the appetite pretty damn good. I noticed no withdrawal or anything when I discontinued use after 2 months. Appetite bounced back pretty quickly after 3-4 days.

    Ahh... the joys of better living through chemistry.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigschmidt821 View Post
    how long u been on it?
    two weeks. its messing with my strength a bit
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    It's also pretty dangerous sh*t. Make sure you know what the heck you're doing before jump on the clen-wagon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    It's also pretty dangerous sh*t. Make sure you know what the heck you're doing before jump on the clen-wagon.
    yeah dont get drunk and poor the bottle into a shot glass!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    I keep seeing Clen brought up. I really feel the more educated members should take initiative to inform people (especially the youngins) about the possible dangers of Clen. IMO, its much more unhealthy than anabolics.
    I feel this way about Triac too. Can't speak for T3, as I have never used it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoldier View Post
    I feel this way about Triac too. Can't speak for T3, as I have never used it...
    Tiratricol (TRIAC - 3,5,3' -triiodothyroacetic acid) is a thyroid drug used in combo with levothyroxine. It has thryoid hormone like activity and can inhibit the secretion of TSH by the pituitary gland. All that has happened is an FDA issued a warning about supplements which contained it. It's pretty safe. Clen on the other hand is not RX'd in American anymore (illegal). Besides that, synthetic T3 is not the same thing.

    I really dont think the heart damage of clen compares to minor suppression of the thyroid.

    Study after study, the thyroid is shown to be fairly resilient (even more so than the testes). It is pretty hard to perm. damage the thyroid with educated use (vs. abuse). There are BB's who have abused t3 years on end and still had their thyroid recover fully. In fact, its pretty common.

    Obviously t3 has its dangers, but so does testosterone. I feel clen belongs in a category all its own. There is no therapeutic range where damage wont occur like with t3 or test. In other words, you need to use around 100mcg for any benefit and this is enough to damage the heart. So if you use even the modest recommended doses, heart tissue apoptosis can occur.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Tiratricol (TRIAC) is a thyroid medication used in combo with levothyroxine. It inhibits the thyroid and secretion of TSH by the pituitary gland. It is worse than running synthetic T3 imo.

    I really dont think the heart damage of clen compares to minor suppression of the thyroid.

    Study after study, the thyroid is shown to be fairly resilient (even more so than the testes). It is pretty hard to perm. damage the thyroid with educated use (vs. abuse). There are BB's who have abused t3 years on end and still had their thyroid recover fully. In fact, its pretty common.

    Obviously t3 has its dangers, but so does testosterone. I feel clen belongs in a category all its own. There is no therapeutic range where damage wont occur like with t3 or test. In other words, you need to use around 100mcg for any benefit and this is enough to damage the heart. So if you use even the modest recommended doses, heart tissue apoptosis can occur.
    ok......... im not doing anymore clen. thats too much danger for my heart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Tiratricol (TRIAC - 3,5,3' -triiodothyroacetic acid) is a thyroid drug used in combo with levothyroxine. It has thryoid hormone like activity and can inhibit the secretion of TSH by the pituitary gland. All that has happened is an FDA issued a warning about supplements which contained it. It's pretty safe. Clen on the other hand is not RX'd in American anymore (illegal). Besides that, synthetic T3 is not the same thing.

    I really dont think the heart damage of clen compares to minor suppression of the thyroid.
    "Minor suppression", that's funny, where do you gather that? I have bloodwork done showing complete shutdown. Also it took a very, very long time to see my thyroid hormones back to baseline... From using Triac while on A A S.

    I'm not trying to compare thyroid suppression to heart damage, or apples to oranges for that matter, just pointing out that it's bad practice to advise people looking to lose a few pounds to turn to thyroid drugs (which I see or have seen in the past this advice far too often). Most of these people are already cycling A A S, and don't really need to mess with another hormonal axis.

    Just my two cents...
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoldier View Post
    "Minor suppression", that's funny, where do you gather that? I have bloodwork done showing complete shutdown. Also it took a very, very long time to see my thyroid hormones back to baseline... From using Triac while on A A S.

    I'm not trying to compare thyroid suppression to heart damage, or apples to oranges for that matter, just pointing out that it's bad practice to advise people looking to lose a few pounds to turn to thyroid drugs (which I see or have seen in the past this advice far too often). Most of these people are already cycling A A S, and don't really need to mess with another hormonal axis.

    Just my two cents...
    You can be TOTALLY shut down from testosterone use too. Is that in and of itself even comparable to clen heart damage? In the case of t3 and test, an overwhelming majority bounce back easily. Suppression is a moot point...

    also...
    A) Im talking about t3 suppression (TRAIC is garbage, notorious for more shutdown and less effect than regular t3)

    B) minor as in permanence, not severity of shut down. If it works, you should be shut down.

    Clen and t3 dont compare. I knew someone was going to open their mouth and say "oh but t3 is dangerous too" .. whatever. The point of the post is that Clen needs to be retired, its not open to debate.

    Im not going to go on and on about why suppression from t3 or testosterone is or isnt bad. The difference between clen is like night and day. You could have just as easily said "I feel the same way about Tren..," why would you bother in either case, I have no idea... T3 and Clen are not comparable in risk. There is a reason Clen was completely banned. Its not a good/bad discussion. Its a lesser of two evils discussion. In which case t3 is much better. People are going to use what works. I'm just trying to show them that Clen isnt worth it.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    You can be TOTALLY shut down from testosterone use too. Is that in and of itself even comparable to clen heart damage? In the case of t3 and test, an overwhelming majority bounce back easily. Suppression is a moot point...

    also...
    A) Im talking about t3 suppression (TRAIC is garbage, notorious for more shutdown and less effect than regular t3)

    B) minor as in permanence, not severity of shut down. If it works, you should be shut down.

    Clen and t3 dont compare. I knew someone was going to open their mouth and say "oh but t3 is dangerous too" .. whatever. The point of the post is that Clen needs to be retired, its not open to debate.

    Im not going to go on and on about why suppression from t3 or testosterone is or isnt bad. The difference between clen is like night and day. You could have just as easily said "I feel the same way about Tren..," why would you bother in either case, I have no idea... T3 and Clen are not comparable in risk. There is a reason Clen was completely banned. Its not a good/bad discussion. Its a lesser of two evils discussion. In which case t3 is much better. People are going to use what works. I'm just trying to show them that Clen isnt worth it.

    Supersoldier is talking from personal experience. The man was in the position to be able to have blood work done VERY regularly and he posted that bloodwork here on the board. Heck his bloodwork is one of the key things which caused members on this board to start calling M1T a poison and to stop using it or recommending it.

    Correct me if I'm wrong , SS, but didn't it take something like 3 months for your T3/T4/TSH levels to return to normal after taking Triac? And weren't they shutdown completely almost immediately?

    From what I remember about the DATA is that it showed that Triac causes MORE shutdown than T3 does and has longer lasting residual shutdown; i.e. it takes longer for one's thyroid to recover from Triac than from T3. A shocker, but the data supported it.



    Anyway, so you are correct that Clen is nasty stuff. Plus you're also correct T3 is safer than Triac. Also true that T3 is safer than Clen. There's a lot of misinformation about T3 out there. But it shouldn't be taken lightly at all; it's very serious stuff. Clen is very dangerous too, but really the problem is the dosages people take of clen and the dose schedule. A lot of folks take over 100mcg a day. A lot of folks take it for like a month at a time. From my personal experience, even on ketotifen clen doesn't do diddly after 2 weeks as far as fatloss, and doesn't seem to work again until you've been off for a good 3 or 4. As far as safety goes, as the study showed, you need to keep dosages low. I do NOT however subscribe to alarmist thinking that it causes permanent irrepairable damage with each drop. That's flat out silly. Seriously heart cells regenerate too, especially in people who exercise well. Killing heart cells doesn't mean permanent damage. Heck, when you do strenuous cardio you kill heart cells. The harder your heart works the more cells you are going to kill. Your heart bounces back though.


    Clen is dangerous and should be taken seriously, but it isn't some kind of deadly poison.


    I swear it seems like sometimes around here people only see black and white; "safe" and "deadly." The world ain't that simple folks. VERY few bodybuilding drugs cause "permanent damage" in reasonable dosages. I'd say DNP is one, but even that can be used safely under the right circumstances. I'd never touch the stuff but many have repeatdly without any permanent damage because they really know what they are doing. Insulin can kill in a single dose without proper precaution and can turn you into a type 2 diabetic if not cycled properly. Diurretics are arguably the most dangerous drugs bodybuilders use; responsible for the majority of bodybuilding deaths. Yet diurretics are used at nearly every contest by the vast majority of NPC members and almost every single IFBB member without permanent damage for most. Clen is nowhere near as dangerous as those drugs. Nowhere near it. Dangerous? yes it is. Deadly? If you're stupid about it. Can it be used safely? YES, yes it can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong , SS, but didn't it take something like 3 months for your T3/T4/TSH levels to return to normal after taking Triac? And weren't they shutdown completely almost immediately?
    TSH was shut down almost immediately after starting dosing. It was actually much longer than 3 months for my Total T4, FT4, Total T3, and FT3 to come back to the area of baseline. My baselines were in the middle of the normal range, and for many months they were at the very bottom of the normal range. Keep in mind, I was still on A A S for a while after stopping the Triac. It was still months after stopping everything before my thyroid hormones were back to my baseline.

    I'm done with this though. Like I said, I had no intention to say one was worse than the other as far as general health issues are concerned. But my stance remains that Triac is far from safe, and there was a time when there were more than a few people that advised just about anybody on the boards (or clients in real life) that wanted to lose weight fast to dabble in the wonders of Triatricol.
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