How to "pulse" orals
- 03-21-2007, 11:43 PM
How to "pulse" orals
A lot of guys have been asking me to clarify the theory behind this cycling technique, so here's a basic explanation.
What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing that is intentionally designed to avoid potential long-term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver stress. This technique was originally developed in an effort to prevent the usual HPAA suppression experienced during long-term corticosteroid therapy in children. With pulse therapy, it was observed that the serious long-term side effects of chronic oral treatment were often prevented, and the short-term side effects like acne and mineral retention were typically much milder. This can also allow for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. Starting with this template, if one normally takes a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, one might typically take 40 mg of that same product on work out days only, 3 times per week. That calculates to 120 mg/week total, which is 90 mg less than usual. This provides the needed benefits of the product at arguably the most crucial metabolic times, which are just before and just after a work out. This offers a means of possibly attenuating the endocrine suppression that one might otherwise encounter on a standard cycle. In many cases, a conventional post cycle therapy should not be required after a typical 4 week pulse. However, while pulses of 6-8 weeks are permissible, a conventional post cycle therapy may still be prudent for some individuals. Idiosyncrasy seems to play a big role in regard to tolerance of duration, so general predictions obviously become tricky as duration increases.
Theoretically, if one doses every day in perfectly spaced intervals, one should achieve 100% effects, 100% short-term sides, and 100% long-term sides. If one doses every other day like the pulse protocol, one might better anticipate 60% effects, 75% short-term sides but only about 40% of the long-term sides. This means that if one would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, one might instead only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing. Since the time on is roughly only half when pulsing, the total length of the cycle can be doubled to basically 2 months. Using the same calculation, the net result would be a gain of 12 pounds over 2 months, instead of the 10 pound gain expected from the 1 month standard cycle. That means a greater net gain of 2 pounds per cycle, and perhaps a more permanent gain due to the slower rate of acquisition and longer time of reinforcement! For this reason, pulsing can be very economical on the body as well as the wallet, and offer a desirable alternative for conservative veterans just looking to stay in shape, or potential new comers exploring additional safety measures.
There are three common types of pulse:
1) EOD dosing (3-4 times per week)
2) 2 days on / 2 days off
3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (2 wks is the longest viable on time consideration, no longer)
Depending on one's workout schedule, one of these options may offer optimal pulsing efficiency. On average, effective doses may typically be around 1.5x the normal daily dose of a standard cycle, and these doses are taken very close to one other. It's not essential that the last dose be administered before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for reducing suppression potential. Half the total dose can be taken pre work out, and the other half taken post work out. If an odd numbered dose is used, the greater of the 2 doses might best be taken pre work out. However, when pulsing non-methylated or fast acting supplements, the greater dose would instead be best utilized post work out based on half-life considerations. Individuals who are extremely sensitive to shutdown may even prefer to take the entire dose pre work out. When pulsing, dosing at least 3 day per week but not more than 4 day per week should foster optimal results.
There are a few miscellaneous nutrition considerations that would be wise to keep in mind. Having a quality, high carb/calorie post work out meal (or shake) is important to proper recovery, and ingesting sufficient protein especially on the off days doesn't hurt either. A cortisol antagonist like low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) may be helpful for slow healers or hard gainers. Some studies show that cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon, which might therefore be the ideal times for an anti-cort. An herbal or AI based test-boosting supplement used nightly (or at least on one's off nights) might prove very effective as additional insurance to discourage the possibility of suppression. SERMs with long half-lives probably require extra consideration and caution. One may observe that testicular volume and/or testosterone levels reset slightly above previous baseline at the end of 2 consecutive off days, or at the end of the cycle itself. This phenomenon is called 'bounce' back. This seemingly paradoxical bounce appears to reflect the body's short-term homeostasis effort, and acts somewhat like a built-in pct with this method. It's also good to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures likely means faster liver clearance of your supplement. Liver ancillaries (like healthy oils and anti-oxidants) are not contraindicated, but Milk Thistle in high doses could act counter productive to gains. Therefore, if you elect to use liver protectants, reserving them for off days only might be good middle ground. As always, I suggest that one only consider using legal, commercially available nutritional supplements, and always consult a physician prior to use of any supplement. Cycle safe!
Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:
Example of a 4x/wk pulse Sat, Sun, Wed, Thur:
Last edited by DR.D; 08-12-2007 at 02:49 AM.
- 03-21-2007, 11:45 PM
- 03-21-2007, 11:56 PM
This almost sounds too good to be true.
Not doubting the legitimacy, but would you care to provide any sources so I can intelligently comment on your post?
03-22-2007, 12:17 AM
what do you think about pulsing for a month and then take it every day for a month im thinking of doing this. ive bee on epi for 3 days and might just start pulsing for a month
03-22-2007, 12:29 AM
03-22-2007, 12:29 AM
people in the community have been using the "morning dbol" technique for decades to avoid complete suppression and still make gains that naturally wouldnt be possible. morning dbol is typically done on an ED basis, and the dose is low...those are the real differences, but the idea is similar: reduced gains with reduced sides, and possible shutdown avoidance.
so is it for real? i think i've seen a clinical study that showed that small amounts of anavar are suppressive when used ED...and maybe bloodwork that showed that a guy using morning dbol had good blood test results, but no data on suppression.
worth looking into.
my 2cc: i used "morning tbol" @ 20mg for 30 days, with no other steroids. i had an increase in libido that dropped LOW as soon as i came off...suggesting that i was in fact suppressed. i did do PCT afterwards of course, and came back to square after about a week.
if this pulse method works, as verified by bloodwork, i would be the first in line as i am always looking to reduce sides, avoid suppression and still make gains.
and i personally think the issue of "pre-WO versus 1st thing AM" for suppression minimization deserves some discussion....
03-22-2007, 12:30 AM
03-22-2007, 12:59 AM
03-22-2007, 01:13 AM
03-22-2007, 01:21 AM
Pulsing is a sweet idea... I may try this during the summer because the 8 weekers would last the majority of my summer which would be nice!
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03-22-2007, 01:53 AM
My average test level was 750 from ages 16-19 (when I was pulsing.) 2 years later when I was in college and no longer cycling, it averaged 850. I have 3 kids also so there was no long term fertility issues or loss of test production with me! It's a good method. Start low and slow following these basic principles and work your way into it over time to see how your body responds. If you hate losing your gains and crashing in PCT, this is something you may wanna try. If you do it right, your test production can end up being higher after it's over and you'll never need a SERM again, just a little test booster at the most.
03-22-2007, 03:23 AM
What about pulsing dbol while on a test cycle. Instead of kickstarting the cycle with dbol for 4 weeks, you could then pulse dbol for 6-8 weeks or so. What kind of effect would this have?
03-22-2007, 06:33 AM
I wonder how Dbol would stack with Havoc in a sort of pulse cycle.
Dbol EOD at low dose and Havoc on the opposite days. You would see gains from both and Havoc would keep the "Dbol bloat" to a minimum.
I realize this would still shut you down but it would be less stressfull on your liver than running them side by side and you should be able to keep gains better than a Dbol only cycle.
03-22-2007, 07:23 AM
03-22-2007, 07:38 AM
Just to clarify, your ranges in doses above such as 30-40 or 30-50 are listed as such to allow for people to apply your suggestions and take their age, weight, cycling experience, etc etc. into consideration when chosing what dose to run with, correct?
Also, if one was running a 3-day training split, such as a M-W-F protocol, do you feel that the 3x/wk pulse would be optimal?
03-22-2007, 09:31 AM
03-22-2007, 10:28 AM
03-22-2007, 03:49 PM
one of the things that i liked about epistane is that people have been reporting that it made their gyno smaller...would you get this affect from pulsing also?
03-22-2007, 03:52 PM
Very tempted to try this as I was planning a cycle net week. I would say I shutdown soon into a cycle and have difficulty not crashing while in pct so this applies to me.
You mention take the dosages close together pre/post workout before 6pm if possible. If you train at night (around 7pm) what is your suggestion? Still pre/post or earlier and pre?
Also, you mention if sensative to shutdown take an AI on off days or daily. Are we talking an OTC like 6-bromo or other?
03-22-2007, 03:59 PM
03-22-2007, 04:16 PM
I remember you talking in another thread about the possibility of using epi during post-cycle therapy in a pulsed fashion. Can this be done the same way as in a pulsed cycle? Or would one have to tweak it a little more?
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03-22-2007, 04:22 PM
What about an Oxyguno Pulse Cycle. Ea is 7.5mg, recommended to take 3 a day = 22.5mg and for no more than 4 weeks. I train on a four day split.
03-22-2007, 04:49 PM
So what would you say about this?
I am 31 years old, 6 2 tall and started my 12 week cycle on January 15th. @ 243 Lbs and now I am almost done (within the last month) and this is how it was:
1 – 12 sustanon @ 500mg EW
1 – 12 proviron @ 25 mg ED
1 – 6 Dbol @ 40 mg ED
6 – 12 HCG @ 500IU EW
post cycle therapy will start 2 week after last test injection & will be a basic Nolvadex 40 40 20 20 20 20 and I do have clomid on hand just in case but I would rather not use clomid unless I will need to keep sides down!
Now, I want to take Dbol from now till the end of my cycle and all the way up to the post cycle therapy especially that the Dbol have a very short half life!
So, can I use the pulse method to take the Dbol from now till the end of my cycle and up to the PCT (on the gym days only, which is 4 days/week or max. 5 days). I work out on a 2 days on 1 day off bases and depending on how I feel I can go for a 3rd day on a roll but not more than 3 days without a day off.
Do you guys think that this will be an over kill to my liver to use the Dbol again from now till the PCT? And if it is ok to use it, what dosage are we talking about? Keeping in mind that I toke 40mg ED for the first 6 weeks.
Can the pulse method work in this case?
Thanks for the help in advance
P.S: I do take Milk thistle along with other suppl. Do you think i should stop taking it coz it Dramatically decrese the gains!
03-22-2007, 05:05 PM
03-22-2007, 06:39 PM
my normal workout split is something like this and im thinking of changing it so i can take epi on my workout days.
thursday- shoulders and tris
friday- biceps and sometiemes i do tris this day instead of on shoulder day
when pulsing should i get a split that allowes me to workout on days i take the epi?
03-22-2007, 08:02 PM
03-22-2007, 08:33 PM
03-22-2007, 08:37 PM
03-22-2007, 08:39 PM
03-22-2007, 08:46 PM
Yes, 3 days per wk is just right. 4 days is OK but starting to push it so you must run lower doses and keep cycles shorter.
03-22-2007, 08:49 PM
03-22-2007, 08:52 PM
03-22-2007, 08:55 PM
so far im on day 4, ive taken it every day and im deff not as puffy as normal...Dr.D- what do you think of taking epi for 3 weeks 20,30,30 then 2 weeks of torm and 3 more weeks of epi at 30,30,40. Followed by 3-4 weeks of torm, nha stack after week 1 of pct with retain?
03-22-2007, 09:10 PM
I work out so late (just ask Sub or Mace) sometimes after midnight when it's quiet and peaceful! So I break the before 6pm rule all the time. It's no biggie. Just take before 6pm IF possible. If your on a pulse, it's not quite as important. Epi on w/o days only is doing me great. I see no suppression at all. I also added 3-AD daily the w/e before last and am loving that stack!
The 6-Br would be great for this. I have used ATD when on and it definitely attenuates shutdown. A 6-Br bases product, especially with a cAMP booster too like Hyperdrol would be perfect. Just use it at low doses, like half the label recommendation or only on off days. That should be plenty for some extra insurance. Even just 1 cap a day would probably just to be safe.
You will need to experiment a little to see exactly what works for you and what you can and can't get away with when pulsing, but once you get the feel of it, you'll be able to cycle safe for years with much less risk of long term health complications and still get slow, steady gains. It's less extreme and hard on your body with the high ons and low offs of regular cycling. You are actually 'on' more of the time this way if you think about it, and it's just when you need it the most only.
03-22-2007, 09:27 PM
Hey Dr.D, how about something like this
Androgen Weeks 1-4 (Pulse Method, 3x EW, WO Days)
IGF weeks 5-10 (Workout Days Only)
Androgen Weeks 11-14 (Pulse Again)
IGF Weeks 15-20 (WO Days Only)
Androgen Is probably going to be Var, Halo (real one) or Dbol (with low dose extremestane). Haven't decided yet. Torm will be run for 2 weeks after each androgen cycle, in the first 2 weeks of each igf cycle. Stats 5'7 180, ~12/13%. Few short oral cycles, couple of trans, 2 inject (one with bunk gear). Goal is come out at about 180-185@10%, basically just a recomp with a small gain that is maintainable. As little shutdown as possible. I have heard igf works better with strong androgens, so I am leaning toward halo due to minimal shutdown, great strength, hardness, aggression and possible igf receptor upregulation (brotelligence maybe?). Anyway, thanks for any input.
03-22-2007, 09:35 PM
03-22-2007, 10:25 PM
03-23-2007, 12:06 AM
So One could Puls PheraPlex 20mg on WO days 3x per week 10mg pre and 10mg post for say say...6- 8 weeks and not do a pct and not take liver aids?
I can't be undersanding this correctly can I?
03-23-2007, 01:03 AM
Does anyone here think that Dbol could effectively be pulsed at like 25mg/d for a 200 pound individual, or does dbol have too many negative side effects?
03-23-2007, 01:08 AM
Hey D <3
I am thinking of pulsing my cycle of EPI, I also have bulk powerful and bulk 6-OXO. I usually work out:
M: w/o or off depending on how tired.
So I would pulse as you recommend on the w/o days,:
Week1: Ramp 10mg day before workout
Week2: 20mg before and 10mg after w/o
Week3: 20mg before and 20mg after w/o
Now my current Bulk Powerfull and 6-OXO are like this:
1. Morning 3/4 tsp bulk Powerfull before cardio / breakfast
2. Before WO 1/4 tsp bulk Powerfull
3. Before Bed 3/4 bulk Powerfull & 600mg ( 1/4 tsp ) 6-OXO
I'm just taking this with water, and I might add it tastes like @$$, any recommendations?
Is this good and should provide good results ( in addition to rest, diet and exercise etc )? Any input please?
Thanks for everything you do for the community.
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