While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and SD. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.