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  1. Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.
    The common denominator is profitability. Anabolic steroid research pretty much grinded to a halt in the 50's. Social stigmas and an archaic, stagnant medical education systems have kept it that way.

    Once the Pharmas start sniffing out a profit again, then we will see new studies and products trickling out.

    Schering released a new long ester test "Nebido" specifically for HRT a while back.
    NEBIDO contains 1000 mg testosterone undecanoate in a novel formulation. After administration of NEBIDO, testosterone levels remain within the physiological range for approximately 12 weeks.
    It was first approved for HRT in Finland in 2003. Indevus licensed U.S. rights to Nebido in July of 2005. They are conducting pharmacokinetic studies they expect to be done in May of this year. It probably wont be available to consumers (eer patients) until next year at best (overly optimistic). Just an example, Stuff takes time...

    Eventually we will see inhaled steroids and such (already available with insulin). The demand just isn't large enough yet. HRT in men at around 35-40 will become as common as women receiving HRT now (which is commonplace). Unfortunately, society evolves slower than science.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  2. same_old's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lol
    my fault Dr.D. i really thought u meant MT, as i have never heard of a steroid being compared to M1T in the vida tables.

    but it does seem REALLY odd to say that it's 7x as strong as M1T...that would make epistane 1/2 as anabolic as methyl-tren, the most potent steroid in existence.

    clearly, there is an error somewhere. do you have the page in front of you?
  3. TeamSavage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I ran it at 20mg/day but did jump to 30 for a short time to check it out. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.
    Just keep in mind that when SD first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.
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  4. Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage View Post
    Just keep in mind that when superdrol first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.
    True, we need more unrelated 3rd party blood tests ASAP.

    Still, BK, PA and others (like Sldge) have commented on the structure all saying things such as "this should be very clean", "less hepatoxic" etc. They didnt really say anything publicly about SD or PP. When you get BK praising Epistane on a public forum it has to be decent. He doesn't normally do that. All he said was "watch the sulfur."

    If I didn't buy the hype I would be the first to call BS. Everyone knows how I like to go against the grain. I bought 2 bottles of havoc as soon as it was available out of sheer curiousity. I know one thing, I felt MUCH better on 20mg Epistane than I did on 20mg of SD.

    It is almost certainly less harsh than SD. As for PP and so on, that will be hard to tell.

    Dr. D was involved with Designer/AX at the time too wasn't he? I believe so... Nobody I have talked about Epistane with had anything to gain from its sale/success.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
  5. b unit's Avatar
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Alpine again.
  6. Sonicology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either.
    you might find this thread interesting

    TST and TRN Metabolites

    especially the part on page two where ALR says

    Quote Originally Posted by Author L. Rea
    As an example, there is a newer attempt at knocking off the old MTRN product by KS that is no where near correct. Hard to knock off what you do not know how to create yourself.
  7. Alpha-male's Avatar
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    So wait a sec, Dr. D are you saying this new compound is 7x as anabolic as M1T??? Guys look at this post from bpmartyr:

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    This was reposted over at BBB by MyTMouse. Orig posted at T-M by may1963.

    Thought some may like to parouse it.


    Compound:------------------------------Androgenic------Anabolic
    1-Testosterone--------------------------100------200
    Anabolicum Vister(Quinbolone)(oral Boldenone)--50------100
    Anadrol 50(Oxymetholone)-------------45------320
    Anadur(Nandrolone Hexyloxyphenylpropionate)--37-----125
    Anatrofin(Stenbolone Acetate)---------107-144-----267-332
    Anavar(Oxandrolone)-------------------24------322-630
    Andractim(Dihydrotestosteron)--------30-260-----60-220
    Andriol(Testosterone Undecanoate)----100------100
    Androderm(Testosterone)---------------100------100
    Androgel(Testosterone)------------------100------100
    Boldabol(Boldenone Acetate)------------50------100
    Cheque Drops(Mibolerone)--------------1,800------4,100
    Danocrine(Danazol)----------------------37------125
    Deca-Durabolin(Nandrolone Decanoate)--37------125
    Deposterona(Testosterone Blend)-------100------100
    Dianabol(Methandrostenolone)-----------40-60------90-210
    Dimethyltrienolone------------------------10,000+-----10,000+
    Dinandrol(Nandrolone Blend)------------37------125
    Durabolin(NPP)----------------------------37------125
    Dynabol(Nandrolone Cypionate)---------37------125
    Equipoise(Boldenone Undecylenate)-----50------100
    Esiclene(Formebolone)-------------------No Data Available
    Genabol(Norbolethone)-------------------17------350
    Halotestin(Fluoxymesterone)------------850------1,900
    Hydroxytestosterone---------------------25------65
    Laurabolin(Nandrolone Laurate)---------37------125
    Madol(Desoxymethyltestosterone )------187------1,200
    Masteron(Drostanolone Propionate)-----25-40------62-130
    Megagrisevit-Mono(Clostebol Acetate)--25------46
    MENT(Methylnortestosterone Acetate)-------650------2,300
    Mestanolone--------------------------------78-254------107
    Methandriol(Mythelandrostenedi ol)-------30-60------20-60
    Methyl-1-Testosterone---------------------100-220------910-1,600
    Methyldienolone----------------------------200-300------1,000
    Methylhydroxynandrolone(MHN)----------281------1304
    Methyltestosterone-------------------------94-130------115-150
    Metribolone(Methyltrienolone)-------------6,000-7,000------12,000-30,000
    Miotolan(Furazabol)-------------------------73-94------270-330
    Myagen(Bolasterone)-----------------------300------575
    Nilevar(Norethandrolone)------------------22-55------100-200
    Omnadren(Testosterone Blend)-----------100------100
    Orabolin(Ethylestrenol)--------------------20-400------200-400
    Oral Turinabol------------------------------None------100+
    Oranabol(Oxymesterone)------------------50------330
    Orgasteron(Normethandrolone)-----------325-580------110-125
    Parabolan(Tren Hexahydrobenzycarbonate)-500------500
    Primobolan(Methenolone Acetate)----------44-57------88
    Primobolan Depot(Methenolone Enanthate)-44-57------88
    Prostanozol------------------------------------n/a------n/a
    Protabol(Thiomesterone)--------------------61------456
    Proviron(Mesterolone)-----------------------30-40------100-150
    Sanabolicum(Nandrolone Cyclohexylpropionate)-37------125
    Steranabol Ritardo(Oxabolone Cypionate)--20-60------50-90
    Superdrol(Methyldrostanolone)-------------400------20
    Sustanon 100 & 250--------------------------100------100
    Synovex(Testosterone Propionate & Estradiol)-100------100
    Test 400---------------------------------------100------100
    Test Enanthate/Cypionate/Propionate/Susp & Blends-100------100
    THG(Tetrahydrogestrinone)-------------------No Data Available
    Tren Acetate/Enanthate & Blends------------500------500
    Winstrol(Stanozolol)---------------------------30------320



    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Let's say M1T has an anabolic ratio of 1000, then this new compound would have a rating of 7000??? Thats higher than the cheque drops on that list. What do you guys think?

    Another question I have is if this is so anabolic then why is it being compared to anavar? What is it that makes a compound produce gains? For instance pheraplex is supposedly more anabolic than superdrol but I think everyone will agree superdrol gives better gains. Does this have something to do with binding afinity?? Sorry if that's the wrong term, I don't have extensive knowledge on human biochemistry. Any input will be appreciated.
  8. Alpha-male's Avatar
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    Also I believe Dr.D has run both SD and epistane so maybe he can compare his experiences with both.
  9. mmowry's Avatar
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    Id like to HEAR this also.
  10. DR.D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-male View Post
    Also I believe Dr.D has run both superdrol and epistane so maybe he can compare his experiences with both.
    Epi is much nicer emotionally. Also, the strength gains are simply outstanding. It's a better libido supporter and boosts it all the way though a 6 wk run, but more androgenic than SD as you may guess. No prostate or hair loss issues for me, but a little acne at higher doses. Blood values looked great. Cholesterol barely moved and enzymes doubled but where still under 60. No hypo with this compound and a great anti-depressant effect.

    SD is a better carb loader and the gains are almost as hard and equally as dry as Epi, but SD can promote some emotional instability with me too. Remember when I commandeered the cherry picker from the construction site? Yeah, that was on my alpha run of SD! I won't go there right now (lol). SD never gave me a pimple though, not one. I guess that's the trade off for the libido. SD was also harsher on lipids, though still not bad and about equal on liver enzymes.

    Overall, 20mg SD compares equally to about 40mg Epi, so quantitatively speaking SD is better, but qualitatively I prefer Epi. It's really an anti-e and guys are reporting good pre-existing gyno reduction with very, very few sides even at 30-40mg. I have a "pulse" protocol up at the IBE board on the Epi sticky that I employed first as a teen to avoid shutdown and the need for PCT. A lot of guys are trying it and logging results if you're interested. I still like SD because to me it was very clean, but this Epi is more versatile and the results are solid. If you're gyno prone or trying to treat gyno, it's worth a shot before you decide on surgery. Also, if you're in it for the strength it's hard to beat this one.

    As far as this 4-Cl-11-OH-MT, it looks great on paper. Very potent and low sides, but I don't see why the hydroxyl derivative is so weak in this case? Something isn't right in the results, but it does look interesting. We shall soon find out.
  11. Tom 185's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Epi is much nicer emotionally. Also, the strength gains are simply outstanding. It's a better libido supporter and boosts it all the way though a 6 wk run, but more androgenic than superdrol as you may guess. No prostate or hair loss issues for me, but a little acne at higher doses. Blood values looked great. Cholesterol barely moved and enzymes doubled but where still under 60. No hypo with this compound and a great anti-depressant effect.

    SD is a better carb loader and the gains are almost as hard and equally as dry as Epi, but SD can promote some emotional instability with me too. Remember when I commandeered the cherry picker from the construction site? Yeah, that was on my alpha run of SD! I won't go there right now (lol). SD never gave me a pimple though, not one. I guess that's the trade off for the libido. SD was also harsher on lipids, though still not bad and about equal on liver enzymes.

    Overall, 20mg SD compares equally to about 40mg Epi, so quantitatively speaking SD is better, but qualitatively I prefer Epi. It's really an anti-e and guys are reporting good pre-existing gyno reduction with very, very few sides even at 30-40mg. I have a "pulse" protocol up at the IBE board on the Epi sticky that I employed first as a teen to avoid shutdown and the need for post cycle therapy. A lot of guys are trying it and logging results if you're interested. I still like SD because to me it was very clean, but this Epi is more versatile and the results are solid. If you're gyno prone or trying to treat gyno, it's worth a shot before you decide on surgery. Also, if you're in it for the strength it's hard to beat this one.

    As far as this 4-Cl-11-OH-MT, it looks great on paper. Very potent and low sides, but I don't see why the hydroxyl derivative is so weak in this case? Something isn't right in the results, but it does look interesting. We shall soon find out.

    can you rate strength gains 1-10 with each?

    superdrol @ 30mg- ?
    epistane @ 40mg- ?

    and don't forget that you can run epistane longer!
  12. DR.D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom 185 View Post
    can you rate strength gains 1-10 with each?

    superdrol @ 30mg- ?
    epistane @ 40mg- ?

    and don't forget that you can run epistane longer!
    SD @ 30 I'd give a 7
    Epi @ 40 I'd give a 9
  13. LakeMountD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    my fault Dr.D. i really thought u meant MT, as i have never heard of a steroid being compared to M1T in the vida tables.

    but it does seem REALLY odd to say that it's 7x as strong as M1T...that would make epistane 1/2 as anabolic as methyl-tren, the most potent steroid in existence.

    clearly, there is an error somewhere. do you have the page in front of you?
    I posted a picture either at the end of the front page or the second page and you can see that it is an analogue of methyl-test, denoted by the delta sign.


    As for the Superdrol and Epistane comparison, I have run multiple of both too and they definitely feel like two totally different compounds. I believe superdrol to be stronger but PCT after 4 weeks of epistane is incredibly odd, i actually gained a lb after 9 days?! I do believe the percentages are somewhat off. you can see this in the Vida book by looking at some steroids that have multiple tests done on them. Some will say 200% more anabolic than test prop and 20% as androgenic then another test right below it for the same compound will state like 60% as anabolic and 5% as androgenic. I'll try and find you an example.


    EDIT: Here is what I mean by the tests not being standardized and the ratios being off, two separate tests by two people yielded a large variation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    I posted a picture either at the end of the front page or the second page and you can see that it is an analogue of methyl-test, denoted by the delta sign.
    so is Dr.D correct in interpreting the delta'-MT as M1T? the doc called it "delta-1-17a-MT" but i am seeing it as "delta-tick-17a-MT", which i would assume is some analog to MT that is SIMILAR to MT, perhaps the 17a-methyl-5b variant (produced by 5b reductase instead of 5a) or something like that...not M1T which is completely different, such that i wouldnt even call it an analog of MT at all.

    maybe you guys know something i dont...but at 6000x+ the anabolic activity of MT (if interpreted Dr.D's way), this would indeed be a "monster hormone"...and i cant imagine anyone selling it as pills greater than 500mcg each or so....

    to add even more bizarre variation to this...Patrick Arnold referenced **DBOL** as the standard when he quoted the relative strength of this Oxygynox product:

    There has to be something wrong with the numbers in the research because this purportedly has an A/A ratio of something like 121!! The specific numbers say that it has anabolic activity 7.3 times that of methandrostenolone (dianabol) while maintaining a seminal vesicle androgenic reading of 0.06 times that of methandrostenolone.

    so which one is right??? what the hell does that delta mean??

    (i know this is kind of moot, and the bottom line is that the hormone is stupidly anabolic and almost entirely non-androgenic, i just want to establish the semantics)
  15. DR.D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    so is Dr.D correct in interpreting the delta'-MT as M1T? the doc called it "delta-1-17a-MT" but i am seeing it as "delta-tick-17a-MT", which i would assume is some analog to MT that is SIMILAR to MT, perhaps the 17a-methyl-5b variant (produced by 5b reductase instead of 5a) or something like that...not M1T which is completely different, such that i wouldnt even call it an analog of MT at all.
    Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.

    Of course, Halotestin is ranked as 20x more anabolic that methytest in the Vida, but nitrogen retention assays in humans only revealed it to be 3x, about the same as Anadrol. Nitrogen retention assays only show Winni and Dbol to be 2x as anabolic as methyltest. So it's just so hard to read a book and know anything unless you've tried it yourself. I have made this argument to BC many a time! No amount of education or studies beats real world evidence and experience.

    I heard that Alpine uncovered this as a scam at BB anyway. That makes total since to me though. Like I said, I had the best lab in China working on this and they couldn't do it, even with a micro lab at their facility. Don't waste your money.
  16. LakeMountD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.

    Of course, Halotestin is ranked as 20x more anabolic that methytest in the Vida, but nitrogen retention assays in humans only revealed it to be 3x, about the same as Anadrol. Nitrogen retention assays only show Winni and Dbol to be 2x as anabolic as methyltest. So it's just so hard to read a book and know anything unless you've tried it yourself. I have made this argument to BC many a time! No amount of education or studies beats real world evidence and experience.

    I heard that Alpine uncovered this as a scam at BB anyway. That makes total since to me though. Like I said, I had the best lab in China working on this and they couldn't do it, even with a micro lab at their facility. Don't waste your money.
    So it was a scam?

    I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.
  17. DR.D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    So it was a scam?

    I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.
    That's what I heard.
  18. Alpine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    That's what I heard.
    No No, some clown came on trying to sell SFN Hemaguno from some homemade site. It looked horrible so I just did a lil background work and the moron registered the domain like a day after the thread was started. Then he used the same email as the contact. Just a scammer trying to make a few bucks off all the buzz. Totally separate issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD View Post
    So it was a scam?

    I know Alpine recovered a web site that was falsely selling Hemaguno for 51.99, not sure if the two incidents are related. He matched IP addresses though.
    Ya, thats all that guy was doing. Unrelated to the SFN and this new compound. The verdict is still out on all that. Personally, I think its being made in Japan and I think it will proboably be pretty impressive. Hopefully someone will send PA a bottle when it comes out and he can do a GC/MS on it and we will know for sure.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    No No, some clown came on trying to sell SFN Hemaguno from some homemade site. It looked horrible so I just did a lil background work and the moron registered the domain like a day after the thread was started. Then he used the same email as the contact. Just a scammer trying to make a few bucks off all the buzz. Totally separate issue.



    Ya, thats all that guy was doing. Unrelated to the SFN and this new compound. The verdict is still out on all that. Personally, I think its being made in Japan and I think it will proboably be pretty impressive. Hopefully someone will send PA a bottle when it comes out and he can do a GC/MS on it and we will know for sure.

    Heck I still say we all just ramp up the tren and stop waiting for a monster!



    haha j/k
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yes, Dbol is the other option. The tick is a "1" indicating that there is a point of unsaturation there. Now literally, dbol can be considered 1-dehydro-MT so saying delta-1-MT could be what they mean. They are certainly not talking about a completely reduced A-ring with a 5a or 5b unless it is M1T, so I think it's safe to say they are talking about one of these two (M1T or Dbol) as the reference standard that was used.
    so there is elsewhere no explanation of the delta-1 nomenclature?

    that table says that dbol is 90-210% as anabolic as ___ (i assume MT but apparently the reference can vary)...if it is indeed MT, then the truth is that "oxygynox" is actually 657-1533 times as anabolic as MT...makes a little more sense.

    again, i realize this is all pretty meaningless, but it at least gives us a starting point for dosing (i am thinking 10mg to start, actually, considering how very similar the numbers are to M1T @ 910-1600)
  21. LakeMountD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    so there is elsewhere no explanation of the delta-1 nomenclature?

    that table says that dbol is 90-210% as anabolic as ___ (i assume MT but apparently the reference can vary)...if it is indeed MT, then the truth is that "oxygynox" is actually 657-1533 times as anabolic as MT...makes a little more sense.

    again, i realize this is all pretty meaningless, but it at least gives us a starting point for dosing (i am thinking 10mg to start, actually, considering how very similar the numbers are to M1T @ 910-1600)
    Well not 657-1533 times, but percent stronger. But again there is no point getting super excited until we test it. Could be a great compound, I am just saying that the studies have so much variation it is just too hard to say.

    I did try and look for the reference but couldn't find it.
  22. swoody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    For me, Epistane has been every bit as hard on hair as PP was. On paper, it is less androgenic though. I had no other androgenic sides. I never really do with these new designers though. All I ever notice is slightly accelerated thinning. I can normally bounce back a lil, but it doesn't help things. I'm prone though... gotta pay to play
    Did you run any dht-blocking compounds like nizoral, spiro or finasteride 5 mg tabs? Cause I ran all those with my last superdrol cycle about 4 months ago with no shedding (I am prone to MPB) and still made great gains (14, kept 10)... just wondering if it would help, or if you had them on hand, if they did much to protect against thinning on epistane. I actually shed more when I ran ActivaTe!
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    H50 IS tbol for all intents and purposes. isnt tbol the target hormone?

    tbol, var, furazabol, winny, epistane...whatever. all mild(er) 17aa that dont aromatize. i only say tbol because it shares that 4-chloro mod and isnt 5a-reduced. seems like an obvious comparison, but the real world effects are what counts, and predictions of those are rarely on-point.

    thanks for bringing this to the board's attention, fellas.
    Ya, I think thats what BK was going for when he planned it. He has said as much.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by swoody View Post
    Did you run any dht-blocking compounds like nizoral, spiro or finasteride 5 mg tabs? Cause I ran all those with my last superdrol cycle about 4 months ago with no shedding (I am prone to MPB) and still made great gains (14, kept 10)... just wondering if it would help, or if you had them on hand, if they did much to protect against thinning on epistane. I actually shed more when I ran ActivaTe!
    Superdrol is pretty easy on the hair. Finasteride wont do a THING for anything besides Test. You weren't achieving anything there really. Topical ant-DHT stuff (Azelaic acid) is pretty much a joke IMO. There isnt a lot of rock solid evidence behind any of them and they arent approved. Minox can help slightly but it has nothing to do with DHT or androgens. Spiro is an anti-androgen but I really am not sold on it. Plus I feel like a delusional loser dabbing that stank **** on my head all the time. You thought your hair stack was doing something but it likely wasn't, besides maybe for the minox. This junk (finasteride) is overused and nobody even knows why the hell they are using it. It really doesnt apply to anything besides your normal bodies production and exogenous test.

    Finasteride works to some degree. You are fighting a losing battle imo. Genetics will win the race. I stopped using finasteride after reading a lot on DHT and seeing some issues older people (lol, 35) started having when they used finasteride for a long time. Merck underreported sides and everyone knows it. Most informed MD/endo's will advise against it and tell you lowering DHT is not a good thing in general for a male. Swale has tried to convince people to stop using this so much but nobody listens. The idea of lowering it just to eek out a few more years seemed foolish. Its a personal preference I guess. IMO finasteride is being overused a lot. You wont notice any sides now (I didnt). But older people that start it seem to be affected much more (libido, mood, body comp., gyno). I just came to terms with reality and stopped being delusional. If you're prone, its going. You can slow it a bit but at the expense of your endocrine system. That stuff should be avoided by any male who doesn't need it due to prostate issues. Our hormones are a VERY complex and perfectly balanced system. I think longterm use of this will jack your endo up more than cycles do...

    btw, I hope you werent taking 5mg A DAY. Thats redonkulus bro... major overkill.
    The UC Berkeley Wellness Letter expressed concern in March 2003 about the unproven long-term safety of Propecia and recommended cutting a standard 1 milligram dose of Propecia into quarters to reduce the cost without reducing its effectiveness. This claim appears to be supported by clinical pharmacological data reviewed by the FDA during Propecia's approval process that suggested that the advantage of taking 1 mg per day over 0.2 mg per day is statisticially small. Some people have unsuccessfully petitioned the FDA to re-examine the approved dosage in light of the statistical evidence and unknown long-term risks.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Superdrol is pretty easy on the hair. Finasteride wont do a THING for anything besides Test. You weren't achieving anything there really. Topical ant-DHT stuff is pretty much a joke IMO. There isnt a lot of rock solid evidence behind any of them. Minox can help but it has nothing to do with DHT or androgens. Spiro is an anti-androgen but I really am not sold on it. You thought your hair stack was doing something but it likely wasn't, besides maybe the minox. This junk (finasteride) is overused and nobody even knows why the hell they are using it. It really doesnt apply to anything besides your normal bodies production and exogenous test.

    Finasteride works to some degree. You are fighting a losing battle imo. Genetics will win the race. I stopped using finasteride after reading a lot on DHT and seeing some issues older people (lol, 35) started having when they used finasteride for a long time. Merck underreported sides and everyone knows it. Most informed MD/endo's will advise against it and tell you lowering DHT is not a good thing in general for a male. Swale has tried to convince people to stop using this so much but nobody listens. The idea of lowering it just to eek out a few more years seemed foolish. Its a personal preference I guess. IMO finasteride is being overused a lot. You wont notice any sides now (I didnt). But older people that start it seem to be affected much more (libido, mood, body comp., gyno). I just came to terms with reality and stopped being delusional. If you're prone, its going. You can slow it a bit but at the expense of your endocrine system. That stuff should be avoided by any male who doesn't need it due to prostate issues. I think longterm use of this will jack your endo more than cycles do...

    i was agreeing with everything that u were saying until i got to the finasteride stuff. i started using it 2 months ago and my shedding went from 20 hairs every time i looked at my hands shampooing to 1-2 hairs max. Then i started a high test cycle..week 4 and still only 1-2 hairs max when i shampoo...its definitely working for me. However, i too am worried about long-term use like you said. As far as delaying hair loss a few years...i'd use it if it gave me an extra few months...plus my dad passed of prostate cancer so if it giving me any extra help in that area at 1mg (which i dont think it is), then i will continue to use it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom 185 View Post
    i was agreeing with everything that u were saying until i got to the finasteride stuff. i started using it 2 months ago and my shedding went from 20 hairs every time i looked at my hands shampooing to 1-2 hairs max. Then i started a high test cycle..week 4 and still only 1-2 hairs max when i shampoo...its definitely working for me. However, i too am worried about long-term use like you said. As far as delaying hair loss a few years...i'd use it if it gave me an extra few months...plus my dad passed of prostate cancer so if it giving me any extra help in that area at 1mg (which i dont think it is), then i will continue to use it...
    It does work. It drastically slowed my receding hairline but overall thinning in the frontal area kept going although MUCH slower. I guess it depends on what you value more and how secure you are. I also didn't really have any sides. I still decided to stop just based on the literature and advice/writing from those with expertise in this area. Swale talks about how he sees client after client that have had really bad luck with finasteride sides.

    btw, finasteride will just stop the prostate from getting too big (enlarged prostate) and making urinating difficult in older men. It doesn't have anything directly to do with cancer itself in the prostate. A study DID show a lowered rate in men using it though. Check this...
    Finasteride May Reduce Prostate Cancer, But...

    See anytime I talk about this stuff I just get flooded with misinformation. Half the people using this **** have no clue what the hell they are doing (as with all these hormones!)

    Not to sound like as ass guys... but you need to read a LOT on the subject before you can weigh in on it. DHT is a MAJOR player in our system. You cant wipe it out and think nothing will happen, even if you dont notice it after half a year of use at age 24 heh.

    Lets stop cluttering this thread with retarded hair loss talk. They are all laughing at us. lol
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Superdrol is pretty easy on the hair. Finasteride wont do a THING for anything besides Test. You weren't achieving anything there really. Topical ant-DHT stuff (Azelaic acid) is pretty much a joke IMO. There isnt a lot of rock solid evidence behind any of them and they arent approved. Minox can help slightly but it has nothing to do with DHT or androgens. Spiro is an anti-androgen but I really am not sold on it. Plus I feel like a delusional loser dabbing that stank **** on my head all the time. You thought your hair stack was doing something but it likely wasn't, besides maybe for the minox. This junk (finasteride) is overused and nobody even knows why the hell they are using it. It really doesnt apply to anything besides your normal bodies production and exogenous test.

    Finasteride works to some degree. You are fighting a losing battle imo. Genetics will win the race. I stopped using finasteride after reading a lot on DHT and seeing some issues older people (lol, 35) started having when they used finasteride for a long time. Merck underreported sides and everyone knows it. Most informed MD/endo's will advise against it and tell you lowering DHT is not a good thing in general for a male. Swale has tried to convince people to stop using this so much but nobody listens. The idea of lowering it just to eek out a few more years seemed foolish. Its a personal preference I guess. IMO finasteride is being overused a lot. You wont notice any sides now (I didnt). But older people that start it seem to be affected much more (libido, mood, body comp., gyno). I just came to terms with reality and stopped being delusional. If you're prone, its going. You can slow it a bit but at the expense of your endocrine system. That stuff should be avoided by any male who doesn't need it due to prostate issues. Our hormones are a VERY complex and perfectly balanced system. I think longterm use of this will jack your endo up more than cycles do...
    While I agree with finasteride can be a little more harsh later on down the road, I am 24 myself and sooner or later I will come off when I see that it is loosing its effectiveness (which happens with finasteride). The nizoral did help at first, but again, it lost its effectiveness... spiro however REALLY helped while on cycle and off... every time i apply it (even though it smells like ass and I do feel like a fool putting it on ;D) I don't shed at all. So it works for me... I definitely know its not placebo. I read that it can have an effect on test production, which is why I normally only run it on cycle when test is high along with arimidex .5 every other day approaching the end of a cycle to ease into pct... and it hasn't impacted my gains or strength at all. Lowering dht with finasteride and spiro hasn't had any impact on strength whatsoever... and my sex drive/bloodwork is fine... it could impact older fellas later on down the road, but so far it has been fine for me. True DHT is a major player with men, but if kept within normal ranges using such products as finasteride and topical spiro for people that have above normal ranges of DHT can only benefit, since prostate size is a real health issue...
    I HAVE tried avodart, and it did lower dht too much. Sex drive suffered, but thats about it... so I went back to finasteride. It seems like it has lost effectiveness SLIGHTLY with me since I have been using it since 2003, so I am guessing it is only blocking 60 percent of the one of two types of alpha-reductase enzyme. Since I already had a high dht level to begin with, I figure it couldn't be all that bad...
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    Quote Originally Posted by swoody View Post
    While I agree with finasteride can be a little more harsh later on down the road, I am 24 myself and sooner or later I will come off when I see that it is loosing its effectiveness (which happens with finasteride). The nizoral did help at first, but again, it lost its effectiveness... spiro however REALLY helped while on cycle and off... every time i apply it (even though it smells like ass and I do feel like a fool putting it on ;D) I don't shed at all. So it works for me... I definitely know its not placebo. I read that it can have an effect on test production, which is why I normally only run it on cycle when test is high along with arimidex .5 every other day approaching the end of a cycle to ease into post cycle therapy... and it hasn't impacted my gains or strength at all.
    Sigh... Nizoral is Useless... Spiro? shakey at best..

    Avodart (dutasteride) is scary stuff - worse than finasteride

    Stay on Target Red Leader!
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    I am beginning to feel that way about nizoral myself... I believe it was placebo more than anything. But I am still sold on the spiro...
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    yea nizoral hasnt helped me at all that i can notice..there was some study done saying how it helps but i can't find it....anyone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom 185 View Post
    yea nizoral hasnt helped me at all that i can notice..there was some study done saying how it helps but i can't find it....anyone?
    It helps if you eat 200-600mg of it everyday, but the sides are worse than topical.
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    Hey Dr.D isn't it actually an anti-androgen? If that is the case I would be really wary about taking it internally unless necessary.

    Mr.50

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    It helps if you eat 200-600mg of it everyday, but the sides are worse than topical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Hey Dr.D isn't it actually an anti-androgen? If that is the case I would be really wary about taking it internally unless necessary.

    Mr.50
    He's joking...

    Orally ingested ketoconazole (Nizoral) or Spironolactone would be horrendous. Very bad idea.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Whoops, I am in class and should be paying attention to the Prof. Of course I missed the joke because I was not paying full attention to the thread either.

    Mr.50

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    He's joking...

    Orally ingested ketoconazole (Nizoral) or Spironolactone would be horrendous. Very bad idea.
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    HA! You missed the boat, I was loading Nizoral into a dart! This ritalin is bunk!
    My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    He's joking...

    Orally ingested ketoconazole (Nizoral) or Spironolactone would be horrendous. Very bad idea.
    No, I was being serious! Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth (before letro and dex) it was the only orally active AI in it's class (enzyme inhibitor type). It was the prototype for the others actually. 200mg/day was not bad but 600mg causes chronic nausea and not only estrogen turn-off but test shutdown as well. It's not an anti-andro, just inhibits test biosynthesis, so that's why enzyme inhibitors are a no-no during PCT!

    Don't try this at home, Dr.D has learned a lot of hard lessons and posts with such passion so you guys can avoid the same mistakes!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    No, I was being serious! Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth (before letro and dex) it was the only orally active AI in it's class (enzyme inhibitor type). It was the prototype for the others actually. 200mg/day was not bad but 600mg causes chronic nausea and not only estrogen turn-off but test shutdown as well. It's not an anti-andro, just inhibits test biosynthesis, so that's why enzyme inhibitors are a no-no during post cycle therapy!

    Don't try this at home, Dr.D has learned a lot of hard lessons and posts with such passion so you guys can avoid the same mistakes!
    I just assumed you couldnt be serious. The systematic effects of oral anti-androgens (spiro) are horrible (feminizing effects). I thought ketoconazole had anti-androgen effects too because of its effects in scalp - but I guess thats just 5-alpha reductase at the scalp level itself.

    It was originally an anti-fungal so that does make more sense that its not a true anti-androgen. It wouldn't be nearly as bad as oral spiro. Still, I havent seen anyone do this before or even read of it lol. I know its dosed for fungal issues (ringworm etc.) but I always thought people avoided it like the plaque because of sides. How old are you? People actually did this? So it lowers test enough in vivo to be effective for hair loss? What a crappy way of approaching lowering DHT. Overkill! I do remember someone talking about oral keto to lower cortisol once or something. Does it suppress glucocorticoid synth too? Thats crazy stuff...

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the multiple "pioneering" uses of strange drugs for various reasons in the BB community. Definitely nobody try it orally for hair loss! Heh
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    ... Does it suppress glucocorticoid synth too? Thats crazy stuff...

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the multiple "pioneering" uses of strange drugs for various reasons in the BB community. Definitely nobody try it orally for hair loss! Heh
    Yeah, after about 2 wks it kills everything! Cort, estro and test. It requires a PCT once you're done with it. It was the earliest and dirtiest AI of the enzyme inhibitor class. Letro is at least 2000x stronger than oral keto, so nobody would ever know this except someone old like me. Just more useless info floating around in my head at this point. lol

    I bet spiro is an anti-androgen though orally, real bad like you say.
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    Damn I have to give a lot of rep in this thread and even though i hate to admit it i owe Alpine some too

    Good read guys, thanks for the info.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Damn I have to give a lot of rep in this thread and even though i hate to admit it i owe Alpine some too

    Good read guys, thanks for the info.
    Welcome back J!!
  

  
 

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