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  1. question for DR.D


    While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and SD. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.


  2. Not necessarily since the in vivo effects in humans often differ then the numbers in Vida might have you believe. The numbers is Vida are only relevent to give a comparison of the effects of different compounds in select muscle tissue in rats. While this is an indicator of how it may effect overall body anabolism in humans there is not a direct relationship. It gives an indicator but not an absolute benchmark. The overall action of a compound in a whole organism is influenced by its actions on all other body systems not just on the increase in anabolism in a particular tissue (especially as it was rat tissue).

    Mr.50

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-male View Post
    While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-male View Post
    While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.
    i would also like to know how the 2 compare from someone that has experience with both...i love superdrol and epistane seems to be the only thing that may be at the same level in terms of gains (i care about strength more than anything) as of late...

    however it does seem to compare closest with anavar from reading the logs

  4. So many compounds, so little liver left.
    Heck, I'm still eyeing the Sostenol 250 on my shelf!

    Hee-hee!


  5. Quote Originally Posted by Joint Fracture View Post
    So many compounds, so little liver left.
    Heck, I'm still eyeing the Sostenol 250 on my shelf!

    Hee-hee!

    Well if you use the sostenol, you'll be using half of these new compounds all at once

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Popa Murph View Post
    I'm pretty sure he meant M1T
    actually i was being sarcastic - i know for a fact he meant MT, for the reasons Alpha-Male gave. i dont know why he kept saying M1T...anywho

  7. Quote Originally Posted by DeerDeer View Post
    So SFR is going to make another Orastan-A -> 5a-androstano[2,3-c] furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol ether) analogue? It's interesting that there really still is not much info available on OrastanA and only a handful of studies on Furazabol.
    Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.


    As for the other questions about A:A and a comparison between SD and Epi - well, the numbers arent the entire story. You cant base how a compound will behave in the body based only on these numbers (as others have said).

    In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I ran it at 20mg/day but did jump to 30 for a short time to check it out. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.

    I have a few bottles of PP and SD left and its hard to validate using them now that Havoc is out. I dont know what I will do with them. I have a extra Halodrol-50 for memory sake (lol) and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either. Maybe I should start a collection of retired legal methyls and put them all in a glass case with a Hall of Fame plaque.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.


    As for the other questions about A:A and a comparison between superdrol and Epi - well, the numbers arent the entire story. You cant base how a compound will behave in the body based only on these numbers (as others have said).

    In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I only ran it at 20mg/day. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.

    I have a few bottles of PP and SD left and its hard to validate using them now that Havoc is out. I dont know what I will do with them. I have a extra Halodrol-50 for memory sake (lol) and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either. Maybe I should start a collection of retired legal methyls and put them all in a glass case with a Hall of Fame plaque.

    so to you... the top 3 (in terms of mass/strength gain) in the last 2 years would look something like....

    1) epistane
    2) superdrol
    3) pheraplext

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Tom 185 View Post
    so to you... the top 3 (in terms of mass/strength gain) in the last 2 years would look something like....

    1) epistane
    2) superdrol
    3) pheraplext
    Ya, all things considered. (sides, health, etc.)

    It all depends on dose too. Havoc doesn't compare to SD until you hit 30mg/day+ so you have a lot of flexibility. You really cant (shouldn't) run SD over 2-4 weeks. With Epistane, I wouldn't flame someone for going 5-7 (although I wouldnt advise it either ).

    Dont forgot H-50 (original). It bloated me a lil but I felt ****ing fantastic on that stuff (sort of like dbol). I would put it up there equal with PP. If I recall I was bulking and eating a **** load of sodium which didnt help (chinese food addict). There is no excuse for a poor diet at any phase but that was fun times. High cals, lil bloated...awesome strength. Lifting is half the fun when dieting IMO.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  10. yea i never cared to try halodrol

    i have tons of SD and PP although ive never run PP either...and now after hearing about hair loss from several people i'm scared to try it

    SD is amazing

    right now i am deciding between sd and epistane to end my 14 week test enanthate cycle....started with dbol as well
    •   
       


  11. Quote Originally Posted by Tom 185 View Post
    yea i never cared to try halodrol

    i have tons of superdrol and PP although ive never run PP either...and now after hearing about hair loss from several people i'm scared to try it

    SD is amazing

    right now i am deciding between superdrol and epistane to end my 14 week test enanthate cycle....started with dbol as well
    For me, Epistane has been every bit as hard on hair as PP was. On paper, it is less androgenic though. I had no other androgenic sides. I never really do with these new designers though. All I ever notice is slightly accelerated thinning. I can normally bounce back a lil, but it doesn't help things. I'm prone though... gotta pay to play
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  12. Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?
    No, I mean M1T. The Vida states it as delta-1-17a-MT. When it's referencing methytest is just says 17a-MT.

  13. I thought it was standard to compare things to methyl-test, not m1t?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Not necessarily since the in vivo effects in humans often differ then the numbers in Vida might have you believe. The numbers is Vida are only relevent to give a comparison of the effects of different compounds in select muscle tissue in rats. While this is an indicator of how it may effect overall body anabolism in humans there is not a direct relationship. It gives an indicator but not an absolute benchmark. The overall action of a compound in a whole organism is influenced by its actions on all other body systems not just on the increase in anabolism in a particular tissue (especially as it was rat tissue).

    Mr.50
    Yeah, in some studies SD was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.

  15. Much agreed Dr.D. I just was trying to give my layman's answer to the poster above as to should the Epi be stronger then SD.

    Thanks for the detail on my rudimentary answer my good friend.

    Mr.50


    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by wrestler119 View Post
    I thought it was standard to compare things to methyl-test, not m1t?
    It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lol

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Much agreed Dr.D. I just was trying to give my layman's answer to the poster above as to should the Epi be stronger then superdrol.

    Thanks for the detail on my rudimentary answer my good friend.

    Mr.50
    Thank you for the help M50! I've been gone a few days and appreciate it. You explanation was solid my man.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.
    With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.

    The current societal and scientific "black-out" on anabolic hormones is pure ignorance.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.
    Amen to that! The stigma with steroids has gotten crazy. Hoodia's active ingredient is a steroid (that kills appetite) and fenugreek's main active is a steroid (that lowers cholesterol) so are all the capillary protecants, sterols or flavones. There are steroids that improve glucose and insulin tolerance, prevent cell differentiation and promote cancer cell apoptosis, burn fat, protect the prostate, ect, ect.. all good stuff! It's time to quit being so one sided and start studying these compounds again.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.

    The current societal and scientific "black-out" on anabolic hormones is pure ignorance.
    all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.
    The common denominator is profitability. Anabolic steroid research pretty much grinded to a halt in the 50's. Social stigmas and an archaic, stagnant medical education systems have kept it that way.

    Once the Pharmas start sniffing out a profit again, then we will see new studies and products trickling out.

    Schering released a new long ester test "Nebido" specifically for HRT a while back.
    NEBIDO contains 1000 mg testosterone undecanoate in a novel formulation. After administration of NEBIDO, testosterone levels remain within the physiological range for approximately 12 weeks.
    It was first approved for HRT in Finland in 2003. Indevus licensed U.S. rights to Nebido in July of 2005. They are conducting pharmacokinetic studies they expect to be done in May of this year. It probably wont be available to consumers (eer patients) until next year at best (overly optimistic). Just an example, Stuff takes time...

    Eventually we will see inhaled steroids and such (already available with insulin). The demand just isn't large enough yet. HRT in men at around 35-40 will become as common as women receiving HRT now (which is commonplace). Unfortunately, society evolves slower than science.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  22. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lol
    my fault Dr.D. i really thought u meant MT, as i have never heard of a steroid being compared to M1T in the vida tables.

    but it does seem REALLY odd to say that it's 7x as strong as M1T...that would make epistane 1/2 as anabolic as methyl-tren, the most potent steroid in existence.

    clearly, there is an error somewhere. do you have the page in front of you?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I ran it at 20mg/day but did jump to 30 for a short time to check it out. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.
    Just keep in mind that when SD first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage View Post
    Just keep in mind that when superdrol first came out, many people (including Dr. D) were saying the exact same things you're now saying about Epistane. Read over old threads and it's striking. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that it can take some time before the risk and side effect profile becomes apparent.
    True, we need more unrelated 3rd party blood tests ASAP.

    Still, BK, PA and others (like Sldge) have commented on the structure all saying things such as "this should be very clean", "less hepatoxic" etc. They didnt really say anything publicly about SD or PP. When you get BK praising Epistane on a public forum it has to be decent. He doesn't normally do that. All he said was "watch the sulfur."

    If I didn't buy the hype I would be the first to call BS. Everyone knows how I like to go against the grain. I bought 2 bottles of havoc as soon as it was available out of sheer curiousity. I know one thing, I felt MUCH better on 20mg Epistane than I did on 20mg of SD.

    It is almost certainly less harsh than SD. As for PP and so on, that will be hard to tell.

    Dr. D was involved with Designer/AX at the time too wasn't he? I believe so... Nobody I have talked about Epistane with had anything to gain from its sale/success.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  25. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Alpine again.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either.
    you might find this thread interesting

    TST and TRN Metabolites

    especially the part on page two where ALR says

    Quote Originally Posted by Author L. Rea
    As an example, there is a newer attempt at knocking off the old MTRN product by KS that is no where near correct. Hard to knock off what you do not know how to create yourself.

  27. So wait a sec, Dr. D are you saying this new compound is 7x as anabolic as M1T??? Guys look at this post from bpmartyr:

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    This was reposted over at BBB by MyTMouse. Orig posted at T-M by may1963.

    Thought some may like to parouse it.


    Compound:------------------------------Androgenic------Anabolic
    1-Testosterone--------------------------100------200
    Anabolicum Vister(Quinbolone)(oral Boldenone)--50------100
    Anadrol 50(Oxymetholone)-------------45------320
    Anadur(Nandrolone Hexyloxyphenylpropionate)--37-----125
    Anatrofin(Stenbolone Acetate)---------107-144-----267-332
    Anavar(Oxandrolone)-------------------24------322-630
    Andractim(Dihydrotestosteron)--------30-260-----60-220
    Andriol(Testosterone Undecanoate)----100------100
    Androderm(Testosterone)---------------100------100
    Androgel(Testosterone)------------------100------100
    Boldabol(Boldenone Acetate)------------50------100
    Cheque Drops(Mibolerone)--------------1,800------4,100
    Danocrine(Danazol)----------------------37------125
    Deca-Durabolin(Nandrolone Decanoate)--37------125
    Deposterona(Testosterone Blend)-------100------100
    Dianabol(Methandrostenolone)-----------40-60------90-210
    Dimethyltrienolone------------------------10,000+-----10,000+
    Dinandrol(Nandrolone Blend)------------37------125
    Durabolin(NPP)----------------------------37------125
    Dynabol(Nandrolone Cypionate)---------37------125
    Equipoise(Boldenone Undecylenate)-----50------100
    Esiclene(Formebolone)-------------------No Data Available
    Genabol(Norbolethone)-------------------17------350
    Halotestin(Fluoxymesterone)------------850------1,900
    Hydroxytestosterone---------------------25------65
    Laurabolin(Nandrolone Laurate)---------37------125
    Madol(Desoxymethyltestosterone )------187------1,200
    Masteron(Drostanolone Propionate)-----25-40------62-130
    Megagrisevit-Mono(Clostebol Acetate)--25------46
    MENT(Methylnortestosterone Acetate)-------650------2,300
    Mestanolone--------------------------------78-254------107
    Methandriol(Mythelandrostenedi ol)-------30-60------20-60
    Methyl-1-Testosterone---------------------100-220------910-1,600
    Methyldienolone----------------------------200-300------1,000
    Methylhydroxynandrolone(MHN)----------281------1304
    Methyltestosterone-------------------------94-130------115-150
    Metribolone(Methyltrienolone)-------------6,000-7,000------12,000-30,000
    Miotolan(Furazabol)-------------------------73-94------270-330
    Myagen(Bolasterone)-----------------------300------575
    Nilevar(Norethandrolone)------------------22-55------100-200
    Omnadren(Testosterone Blend)-----------100------100
    Orabolin(Ethylestrenol)--------------------20-400------200-400
    Oral Turinabol------------------------------None------100+
    Oranabol(Oxymesterone)------------------50------330
    Orgasteron(Normethandrolone)-----------325-580------110-125
    Parabolan(Tren Hexahydrobenzycarbonate)-500------500
    Primobolan(Methenolone Acetate)----------44-57------88
    Primobolan Depot(Methenolone Enanthate)-44-57------88
    Prostanozol------------------------------------n/a------n/a
    Protabol(Thiomesterone)--------------------61------456
    Proviron(Mesterolone)-----------------------30-40------100-150
    Sanabolicum(Nandrolone Cyclohexylpropionate)-37------125
    Steranabol Ritardo(Oxabolone Cypionate)--20-60------50-90
    Superdrol(Methyldrostanolone)-------------400------20
    Sustanon 100 & 250--------------------------100------100
    Synovex(Testosterone Propionate & Estradiol)-100------100
    Test 400---------------------------------------100------100
    Test Enanthate/Cypionate/Propionate/Susp & Blends-100------100
    THG(Tetrahydrogestrinone)-------------------No Data Available
    Tren Acetate/Enanthate & Blends------------500------500
    Winstrol(Stanozolol)---------------------------30------320



    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Let's say M1T has an anabolic ratio of 1000, then this new compound would have a rating of 7000??? Thats higher than the cheque drops on that list. What do you guys think?

    Another question I have is if this is so anabolic then why is it being compared to anavar? What is it that makes a compound produce gains? For instance pheraplex is supposedly more anabolic than superdrol but I think everyone will agree superdrol gives better gains. Does this have something to do with binding afinity?? Sorry if that's the wrong term, I don't have extensive knowledge on human biochemistry. Any input will be appreciated.

  28. Also I believe Dr.D has run both SD and epistane so maybe he can compare his experiences with both.

  29. Id like to HEAR this also.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-male View Post
    Also I believe Dr.D has run both superdrol and epistane so maybe he can compare his experiences with both.
    Epi is much nicer emotionally. Also, the strength gains are simply outstanding. It's a better libido supporter and boosts it all the way though a 6 wk run, but more androgenic than SD as you may guess. No prostate or hair loss issues for me, but a little acne at higher doses. Blood values looked great. Cholesterol barely moved and enzymes doubled but where still under 60. No hypo with this compound and a great anti-depressant effect.

    SD is a better carb loader and the gains are almost as hard and equally as dry as Epi, but SD can promote some emotional instability with me too. Remember when I commandeered the cherry picker from the construction site? Yeah, that was on my alpha run of SD! I won't go there right now (lol). SD never gave me a pimple though, not one. I guess that's the trade off for the libido. SD was also harsher on lipids, though still not bad and about equal on liver enzymes.

    Overall, 20mg SD compares equally to about 40mg Epi, so quantitatively speaking SD is better, but qualitatively I prefer Epi. It's really an anti-e and guys are reporting good pre-existing gyno reduction with very, very few sides even at 30-40mg. I have a "pulse" protocol up at the IBE board on the Epi sticky that I employed first as a teen to avoid shutdown and the need for PCT. A lot of guys are trying it and logging results if you're interested. I still like SD because to me it was very clean, but this Epi is more versatile and the results are solid. If you're gyno prone or trying to treat gyno, it's worth a shot before you decide on surgery. Also, if you're in it for the strength it's hard to beat this one.

    As far as this 4-Cl-11-OH-MT, it looks great on paper. Very potent and low sides, but I don't see why the hydroxyl derivative is so weak in this case? Something isn't right in the results, but it does look interesting. We shall soon find out.
  

  
 

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