New Monster Hormone

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    Quote Originally Posted by b unit View Post
    do you think the chinese could make it and also make it cost effectively?
    One of the issues with this compound is the cost/difficulty to synthesize. It's not impossible but its not as easy as many of the others we have already seen. Apparently the best way to attach the oxygen at 11 is with the use of bacteria. It's harder to make than most stuff. Bacteria will add the oxygen at 11. Methyltest fermented = 11-oxo methyltest. Then add chlorine at 4.

    Sldge:
    From my exp. and this surely could have changed while I was away, the chinese are rarely using bacteria to manufactuer hormones/improve on them. I had begged them to use a similar process for a compound I was looking to do 4 or 5 years ago. They wouldnt even consider it an option.
    BK:
    The Chinese want ZERO to do with bacterial fermentation of stuff like this.
    I did not realize it would be as easy to do as you mentioned but years ago I wanted to get 11-keto/11-hydroxy andros made and was told, as was Matt I imagine, "no thanks, we're not interested in making them" - I can't see the Chinese going out and buying the fermentation tanks and equipment, trying to learn how to do this, so they can make what? 10kg or 20kg of material for one stupid company in Florida on a bombing run?!?
    I highly doubt its Chinese in origin based on what they say. It's probably from somewhere in Eastern Europe, Brazil, or maybe India. Who knows.

    I guess one possibility is that it really is coming from Shionogi (Japan) which would be amazing because they are a huge, legit pharmaceutical company. That is the rumor, BK just doesnt buy it. Most (all) supp companies work as cheap as possible. The raws come from who knows where. They are impure and dirty. Something from a pharma could be great (if it happened).
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by natiels View Post
    Don't think so. H50 is it's own compound, not a PH, so there is no target hormone. It is very similiar to tbol but not the same.
    halodrol is the -diol precursor to OT (tbol)

    halo:
    4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3,17-diol

    tbol:
    4-chloro-17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-dien-3-one

    both are variations of boldenone, actually, albeit with 2 or 3 additional bonds.

    this new one is not - it's a form of testosterone (again, some very important differences but the foundation of this monster hormone is test)...i wonder if that 11-keto would have been possible with tbol like it is with 17a-clostebol...in any case it would probably be less potent.

    who's got a presale planned??
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    halodrol is the -diol precursor to OT (tbol)

    halo:
    4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3,17-diol

    tbol:
    4-chloro-17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-dien-3-one

    both are variations of boldenone, actually, albeit with 2 or 3 additional bonds.

    this new one is not - it's a form of testosterone (again, some very important differences but the foundation of this monster hormone is test)...i wonder if that 11-keto would have been possible with tbol like it is with 17a-clostebol...in any case it would probably be less potent.

    who's got a presale planned??
    DEFINITELY going to throw that bad boy in the IR spec.
    •   
       

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    Something else worth thinking about in regards to the Androgenic/Anabolic ratio. These numbers(A:A) are not always in line with what measurements users may observe and there is a reason for this, rats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by size View Post
    Something else worth thinking about in regards to the Androgenic/Anabolic ratio. These numbers(A:A) are not always in line with what measurements users may observe and there is a reason for this, rats.
    so true. binding affinity, collateral activations (ER, PgR), interactions with 5AR and aromatase (will be minimal with this guy), preference for skeletal muscle over other tissues...all play a big part in what the drug does in vivo.

    (i'm sure i left some important dimensions out)

    isnt the vida data based on levator ani (sp) effects on rats?
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    so true. binding affinity, collateral activations (ER, PgR), interactions with 5AR and aromatase (will be minimal with this guy), preference for skeletal muscle over other tissues...all play a big part in what the drug does in vivo.

    (i'm sure i left some important dimensions out)

    isnt the vida data based on levator ani (sp) effects on rats?
    Yes, not to mention the fact it was written WAYYYYYYYYY back in the day before computer analysis and well a few other scientific techniques that are obviously more advanced lol.
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    The saga continues... ima bout to bust it open like a piņata full of methyls.

    Shionogi IS synthesizing this for Spectra Force Nutrition (SFR). If any source could do it (bacteria), it would be Shionogi. They could easily be doing this 4-chloro-11-keto-17a-methyltestosterone "Oxogynox" product.

    SFR's Hemaguno is a simple Epistane product. However, it is an enteric coated yellow oval tab with a white center. This is NOT a cheap 00 cap with dirty white powder in it. This took extra money and time. A new, cheap company would not have done this (and simply couldnt have).

    Looks like these guys get their raws done in the Nichia Pharmaceuticals Ltd.in Tokushima, Japan and then the final pack out with pills/tabs and the bottle in Saitama, Japan at Bushu Pharmaceuticals Ltd. - both are subsidiaries to Shionogi and both could easily do this type of thing. Shionogi also has a large plant in Taiwan.

    Taiwan Shionogi & Co., Ltd.
    Transworld Commercial Center 4F, No.2, Sec. 2, Nanking E. Road 10408, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.

    Rumor is SFR also plans to produce a C17b-carbonate ester version of furazabol (17-alpha-methyl-5-alpha-androsta-2,3-furazan,17b-ol). It will be a non-methyl, non-toxic. This is another thing that IS NOT coming from China.

    Still strange that Shionogi would be doing this anyway. I dont see how it can be that profitable for them. At say, 5,000 units of each, thats peanuts for a large Pharma like this.

    Now for the juicy part. You may ask, "How can a small noname company get something like this rolling?" Well, they answer is - THEY CANT.

    IDS
    531 S. Econ Circle
    Suite 1009
    Oviedo, Florida 32765

    This is a shell brand. They own EST, Webber and another that will go unmentioned. With each evolution they refine and market it better. Mass-Tabs did below average, Webber did a lil better. With ETS they bumped up their game and focused on packaging. With SFR, they are swinging for the fences. They are getting VERY high quality production from Japan, great packaging (ā la H-50), and VERY exciting compounds.

    With products like this, a company tends to protect and insulate itself from negative media attention and FDA action. If they come down hard on SFR it can fade away and a new one can eventually take its place.

    I better get some greenies for this one, I'll stop giving you guys the goods.

    We shall see what the Three Knights of Nomenclature (Princes of Pump) have to say about this one. (PA, BK, MC)



    Disclaimer: everything above is pure speculation of an outside observer. I have no knowledge of intra-company dealings. This post is purely for entertainment value.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    BK a night of nomenclature? Haha no offense but BK is horrible with organic.

    I am interested to see what PA says as I respect him as a good chemist in this field. This all seems a little "out of the way" for such an ingredient.
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    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Alpine again."

    the love is there, bro...

    thanks for the info. compelling stuff. i was wondering about hemguno's packaging - very different from other domestic steroid presentations.
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    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright View Post
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
    more like,

    Hemmmmmmmmmmmmmungo.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    ... Apparently the best way to attach the oxygen at 11 is with the use of bacteria. It's harder to make than most stuff. Bacteria will add the oxygen at 11. Methyltest fermented = 11-oxo methyltest. Then add chlorine at 4.
    Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!
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    Question


    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!

    Yowza! With that said, assuming this product is what they tried to make it, what would be the projected properties for it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Let me just give you guys some insight, since the cat's outta the bag. I've been trying to get this cooked by the best lab in China since August, and they couldn't do it. It's like you said, a mico lab is needed for high yield 11-hydroxylations (the starter), then the C4 is subbed but the 11 is hard to protect for conversion to the ketone later apparently. It was not for a US company but a company in the UK where these things are still in high demand and not legislated. They had to give him his deposit back after 3 months of unsuccessful synthesis efforts, and like I said, they are the best lab I know of, so be careful with this stuff. It may not be what they claim. I could test a bottle of it, but I'm not sure it will last long here in the states anyway. It's clearly an MT derivative and very difficult to defend to the FDA for US sales I'd think. Promoting it as a hemotrophic and not an anabolic is their best argument. I would say get some while you can, but I'm very skeptical it's legit. Like I said, you don't see labs giving back 10,000$ checks unless they really tried and just couldn't do it!
    Appreciated...
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Well, the Vida states that it's over 7x as anabolic as M1T but only 6% as androgenic. Sounds like a winner to me! I'm sure it's dry with 5a-reductase and mild, passive aromatase inhibiting properties. I bet it's a decent cortisol antagonist too. Of course the 11-hydroxy version of this same compound is only 0.3x (or 30%) as strong as M1T which is not that impressive so that makes no sense. There should not be such a large difference in the potencies of these two compounds so one of the reports must be wrong. Regardless if it takes 5 or 60mg as an effective dose, the favorable separation of anabolic and androgenic effects is what makes it a good looking possibility.
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    Wow....that would be something!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Well, the Vida states that it's over 7x as anabolic as M1T but only 6% as androgenic. Sounds like a winner to me! I'm sure it's dry with 5a-reductase and mild, passive aromatase inhibiting properties. I bet it's a decent cortisol antagonist too. Of course the 11-hydroxy version of this same compound is only 0.3x (or 30%) as strong as M1T which is not that impressive so that makes no sense. There should not be such a large difference in the potencies of these two compounds so one of the reports must be wrong. Regardless if it takes 5 or 60mg as an effective dose, the favorable separation of anabolic and androgenic effects is what makes it a good looking possibility.
    doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?
    I'm pretty sure he meant M1T
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    So SFR is going to make another Orastan-A -> 5a-androstano[2,3-c] furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol ether) analogue? It's interesting that there really still is not much info available on OrastanA and only a handful of studies on Furazabol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Rumor is SFR also plans to produce a C17b-carbonate ester version of furazabol (17-alpha-methyl-5-alpha-androsta-2,3-furazan,17b-ol). It will be a non-methyl, non-toxic. This is another thing that IS NOT coming from China.
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    I think me meant to say "MT" as in methyltestosterone, not "M1T". M1T has an anabolic rating of around 900-1600 I think, so if it was M1T then that means that this compound would be 7x as anabolic as M1T. 7 X (900-1600)? I don't think it could be that high.
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    question for DR.D


    While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and SD. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.
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    Not necessarily since the in vivo effects in humans often differ then the numbers in Vida might have you believe. The numbers is Vida are only relevent to give a comparison of the effects of different compounds in select muscle tissue in rats. While this is an indicator of how it may effect overall body anabolism in humans there is not a direct relationship. It gives an indicator but not an absolute benchmark. The overall action of a compound in a whole organism is influenced by its actions on all other body systems not just on the increase in anabolism in a particular tissue (especially as it was rat tissue).

    Mr.50

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-male View Post
    While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-male View Post
    While we're on this subject I have a question regarding Epistane/havoc and superdrol. SD is said to have a ratio of 20 androgenic to 400 anabolic. It says in this thread somewhere that epistane/havoc has a ratio of about 73 to 1100. Now from these numbers I'm guessing that epistane would be way stronger than SD, but on my SD cycle I gained 15lbs in the first two weeks and that was at 20mg. I see people on the boards running epi at 40mg/day. I don't know if epi is in any way related to SD as to have the same effects on me (both derived from DHT I think?) , but I'm considering purchasing epi and wanted to know since the numbers are better than SD, would it neccesarily give better gains than SD would? Thanks for any input.
    i would also like to know how the 2 compare from someone that has experience with both...i love superdrol and epistane seems to be the only thing that may be at the same level in terms of gains (i care about strength more than anything) as of late...

    however it does seem to compare closest with anavar from reading the logs
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    So many compounds, so little liver left.
    Heck, I'm still eyeing the Sostenol 250 on my shelf!

    Hee-hee!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joint Fracture View Post
    So many compounds, so little liver left.
    Heck, I'm still eyeing the Sostenol 250 on my shelf!

    Hee-hee!

    Well if you use the sostenol, you'll be using half of these new compounds all at once
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popa Murph View Post
    I'm pretty sure he meant M1T
    actually i was being sarcastic - i know for a fact he meant MT, for the reasons Alpha-Male gave. i dont know why he kept saying M1T...anywho
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeerDeer View Post
    So SFR is going to make another Orastan-A -> 5a-androstano[2,3-c] furazan-17b-tetrahydropyranol ether) analogue? It's interesting that there really still is not much info available on OrastanA and only a handful of studies on Furazabol.
    Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.


    As for the other questions about A:A and a comparison between SD and Epi - well, the numbers arent the entire story. You cant base how a compound will behave in the body based only on these numbers (as others have said).

    In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I ran it at 20mg/day but did jump to 30 for a short time to check it out. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.

    I have a few bottles of PP and SD left and its hard to validate using them now that Havoc is out. I dont know what I will do with them. I have a extra Halodrol-50 for memory sake (lol) and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either. Maybe I should start a collection of retired legal methyls and put them all in a glass case with a Hall of Fame plaque.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    Yes, a lot like Gaspari Orastan-A. It was never sold here in the U.S. though.


    As for the other questions about A:A and a comparison between superdrol and Epi - well, the numbers arent the entire story. You cant base how a compound will behave in the body based only on these numbers (as others have said).

    In terms are sheer gains, I'm not sure Havoc "surpasses" SD. Then again, I only ran it at 20mg/day. All things considered though, Epistane (Havoc) is by FAR the best choice. The gains are VERY close at 30mg/day+. The sides are nothing compared to SD (literally). Its a much cleaner choice. SD will jack your lipids in no time flat and is more hepatoxic. Havoc is likely the easiest on your body compared to all the other choices and you still get gains equal to PP and SD.

    I have a few bottles of PP and SD left and its hard to validate using them now that Havoc is out. I dont know what I will do with them. I have a extra Halodrol-50 for memory sake (lol) and some Trenadrol I never even tested out. How was it anyway? Its the same as Methoxy-TRN but I never ran that either. Maybe I should start a collection of retired legal methyls and put them all in a glass case with a Hall of Fame plaque.

    so to you... the top 3 (in terms of mass/strength gain) in the last 2 years would look something like....

    1) epistane
    2) superdrol
    3) pheraplext
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom 185 View Post
    so to you... the top 3 (in terms of mass/strength gain) in the last 2 years would look something like....

    1) epistane
    2) superdrol
    3) pheraplext
    Ya, all things considered. (sides, health, etc.)

    It all depends on dose too. Havoc doesn't compare to SD until you hit 30mg/day+ so you have a lot of flexibility. You really cant (shouldn't) run SD over 2-4 weeks. With Epistane, I wouldn't flame someone for going 5-7 (although I wouldnt advise it either ).

    Dont forgot H-50 (original). It bloated me a lil but I felt ****ing fantastic on that stuff (sort of like dbol). I would put it up there equal with PP. If I recall I was bulking and eating a **** load of sodium which didnt help (chinese food addict). There is no excuse for a poor diet at any phase but that was fun times. High cals, lil bloated...awesome strength. Lifting is half the fun when dieting IMO.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    yea i never cared to try halodrol

    i have tons of SD and PP although ive never run PP either...and now after hearing about hair loss from several people i'm scared to try it

    SD is amazing

    right now i am deciding between sd and epistane to end my 14 week test enanthate cycle....started with dbol as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom 185 View Post
    yea i never cared to try halodrol

    i have tons of superdrol and PP although ive never run PP either...and now after hearing about hair loss from several people i'm scared to try it

    SD is amazing

    right now i am deciding between superdrol and epistane to end my 14 week test enanthate cycle....started with dbol as well
    For me, Epistane has been every bit as hard on hair as PP was. On paper, it is less androgenic though. I had no other androgenic sides. I never really do with these new designers though. All I ever notice is slightly accelerated thinning. I can normally bounce back a lil, but it doesn't help things. I'm prone though... gotta pay to play
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old View Post
    doc - you mean MT, not M1T, right?
    No, I mean M1T. The Vida states it as delta-1-17a-MT. When it's referencing methytest is just says 17a-MT.
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    I thought it was standard to compare things to methyl-test, not m1t?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Not necessarily since the in vivo effects in humans often differ then the numbers in Vida might have you believe. The numbers is Vida are only relevent to give a comparison of the effects of different compounds in select muscle tissue in rats. While this is an indicator of how it may effect overall body anabolism in humans there is not a direct relationship. It gives an indicator but not an absolute benchmark. The overall action of a compound in a whole organism is influenced by its actions on all other body systems not just on the increase in anabolism in a particular tissue (especially as it was rat tissue).

    Mr.50
    Yeah, in some studies SD was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.
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    Much agreed Dr.D. I just was trying to give my layman's answer to the poster above as to should the Epi be stronger then SD.

    Thanks for the detail on my rudimentary answer my good friend.

    Mr.50


    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrestler119 View Post
    I thought it was standard to compare things to methyl-test, not m1t?
    It does seem like a strange reference to use. The researchers usually used MT or a closely related compound. In this case, it would best relate to Clobestol or Halotesin, but certainly not M1T! Don't know why they didn't just use MT, who knows? This was back in the 60's. They were probably stoned or something. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50 View Post
    Much agreed Dr.D. I just was trying to give my layman's answer to the poster above as to should the Epi be stronger then superdrol.

    Thanks for the detail on my rudimentary answer my good friend.

    Mr.50
    Thank you for the help M50! I've been gone a few days and appreciate it. You explanation was solid my man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yeah, in some studies superdrol was actually an 800 rather than a 400, so SD was stronger that most think. Still, these studies only give you valid separation ratios. The baselines are up to interpretation bases on the assay used and the baseline assumed. These are rat studies. Rats don't even have a DHT receptor! Oh well, nobody is publishing anabolic research anymore so these old, unstandardized studies are all we have and just a guideline.
    With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.

    The current societal and scientific "black-out" on anabolic hormones is pure ignorance.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.
    Amen to that! The stigma with steroids has gotten crazy. Hoodia's active ingredient is a steroid (that kills appetite) and fenugreek's main active is a steroid (that lowers cholesterol) so are all the capillary protecants, sterols or flavones. There are steroids that improve glucose and insulin tolerance, prevent cell differentiation and promote cancer cell apoptosis, burn fat, protect the prostate, ect, ect.. all good stuff! It's time to quit being so one sided and start studying these compounds again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    With the anti-aging / HRT / Quality of Life boom this will hopefully begin to change.

    The current societal and scientific "black-out" on anabolic hormones is pure ignorance.
    all the while alcohol, cigarettes and anti-depressents reign supreme.
  

  
 

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