Exploring:New anabolic: MAX LMG --> Propadrol

[xtraflossy]

I found this while looking for information on that propadrol chem that looks like LMG, but claims that it is not..

Gona-4,9(10)-dienes and process of producing the same
Document Type and Number: United States Patent 4167517
Link to this Page: Gona-4,9(10)-dienes and process of producing the same - Patent 4167517

Abstract: New gona-4,9(10)-dienes of formula I ##STR1## where R is alkyl of 1 to 3 carbon atoms and X is Cl, Br, F, N.sub.3, SCN, CN, OH, OR'(R'=alkyl), NH.sub.2, a substituted amino group or a heterocyclic compound including nitrogen in the ring.
The compounds have valuable biological properties, especially hormonal and antihormonal effects, and can be used to advantage in pharmaceutical preparations for the treatment of endocrinopathies and for reproduction control in human beings and livestock.

The invention also embraces a process for making the compounds by converting
3-methyoxy-13.beta.-R-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17.beta.-spiro-1',2'-o xiranes.

first to 17beta-hydroxy-17alpha.-CH.sub.2 X-13. beta.-R-gon-5(10)-en-3-one,

then to the:

17.beta.-hydroxy-17.alpha.-CH.sub.2 X-13.beta.-R-gona-4,9(10)-diene-3-ones of formula I.


Max LMG is 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one
Propadrol is 12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene
Im not a chemist, but it looks like (either in nomenclature or design) for LMG they added an Ethyl??? - hell,.. maybe swapped the placement of the methoxy too.


maybe someone can chime in on IF this above artical has anything to do with anything...
I think where I am tring to go with this is:
Propadrol is to Max LMG what Pheraplex is to Ergomax

That propadrol could be a metabolite (altered or not) of Max LMG ~ the one responsable for the majority of the anabolic activity

Propadrol Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Caps
Servings per container: 40
Amount Per Serving
6-17 dihydroxyetiocholone-3-ol proponate
12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene 15mg

 

[kingofthechiba]

i did a max lmg cycle a while back and wasnt impressed at all. hopefully it has higher mg/serving. isnt xmass beefed up max lmg?

 

[Kris4153]

i did a max lmg cycle a while back and wasnt impressed at all. hopefully it has higher mg/serving. isnt xmass beefed up max lmg?

Yes its 45 mg vs 25 mg. Why didnt you like the cycle? What did your cycle look like? I'm probably going to do a ergomax and xmass cycle in january...

 

[kingofthechiba]

cant remember off hand what i was running but they werent puss doses. i just didnt see the gains i was expecting. do the ergomax its def. better than the max lmg version. havent done ergo but theres plenty of ppl here that have and got nice results. sry if this off topic of the thread btw!

 

[xtraflossy]

Right,.. just for the record:
* X-MASS is the same thing as MAX LMG, just different doses.
* Ergomax was so much fun! I wish I could get my hands on some damnit!
* Propadrol IS NOT another clone of XMASS or LMG.
IT's a different (apparently anyways) compound.


Hence, the posting and questions...

 

[yeahright]

Bump for an answer.

 

[pistonpump]

it would appear so.

 

[xtraflossy]

maybe someone can chime in on IF this above artical has anything to do with anything...
I think where I am tring to go with this is:
(Maybe)Propadrol is to Max LMG what Pheraplex is to Ergomax

propadrol could be a metabolite (altered or not) of Max LMG ~ the one responsable for the majority of the anabolic activity
??????????????????????

 

[TeamSavage]

maybe someone can chime in on IF this above artical has anything to do with anything...
I think where I am tring to go with this is:
(Maybe)Propadrol is to Max LMG what Pheraplex is to Ergomax

propadrol could be a metabolite (altered or not) of Max LMG ~ the one responsable for the majority of the anabolic activity
??????????????????????

My understanding is that Pheraplex isn't a metabolite of ErgoMax, it's simply 100% of the active isomer whereas ErgoMax is a 50/50 mix of the active and inactive isomers. Basically, PP and ErgoMax are the same compound, PP is just twice as active.

This does not appear to be the case with Propadrol, as it looks like a different compound altogether (albeit possibly a similar one).

I'm not a chem expert, though, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[xtraflossy]

It was a comaprrision, since they (MAX LMG and this Propadrol) look so related,.. In addition to the pubmed artical about metabolizing Gona-4,9(10)-dienes.

(ERGO was an 70/30 mix of 2 and 3-ene (DMT). your right about the 2-ene being more anabolic then the 3-ene)

But: DMT was a single compound, with these two metabolites combined. Pheraplex is technically no longer DMT, as that name implies the mixture of both.

Anyways...
R = alkyl of 1 to 3 carbon atoms

Max LMG is 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one
Propadrol is 12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene

So Iguess I have 2 questions (let me know if Im beating a dead horse here..)

1) Are there carbon atoms that can be taken away from the 13-ethyl? (which would make it the 12-ethyl in Propadrol...??)

2) What part of the chain are the .-spiro-1',2'-o xiranes??
(what the hell is a "xiranes"???)


MAX LMG = Max LMG is 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one
Looks just like
3-methyoxy-13.beta.-R-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17.beta.-spiro-1',2'-o xiranes. (worded differently)

and These are metabolites of LMG....

"first to 17beta-hydroxy-17alpha.-CH.sub.2 X-13. beta.-R-gon-5(10)-en-3-one, "

then to the:

"17.beta.-hydroxy-17.alpha.-CH.sub.2 X-13.beta.-R-gona-4,9(10)-diene-3-ones of formula I."


~Propadrol is 12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene

Im just tring to account where the 12 comes from )I think :blink:

 

[yeahright]

My understanding is that Pheraplex isn't a metabolite of ErgoMax, it's simply 100% of the active isomer whereas ErgoMax is a 50/50 mix of the active and inactive isomers. Basically, PP and ErgoMax are the same compound, PP is just twice as active.

This does not appear to be the case with Propadrol, as it looks like a different compound altogether (albeit possibly a similar one).

I'm not a chem expert, though, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think it's active and inactive isomers. I think Ergomax is a mix of isomers that are both active but one of which causes some negative side-effects. PP being the isolated isomer which has a purer benefit/cost profile.

If it were active and inactive, you'd expect to have to dose Ergo twice as high as PP and that's not the case. People dose them the same.

 

[yeahright]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/53686-propadrol-log.html

 

[TeamSavage]

I don't think it's active and inactive isomers. I think Ergomax is a mix of isomers that are both active but one of which causes some negative side-effects. PP being the isolated isomer which has a purer benefit/cost profile.

If it were active and inactive, you'd expect to have to dose Ergo twice as high as PP and that's not the case. People dose them the same.

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[yeahright]

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

Oh, I could be wrong. Don't take my word for gospel. That's just my understanding.

 

[xtraflossy]

I don't think it's active and inactive isomers. I think Ergomax is a mix of isomers that are both active but one of which causes some negative side-effects. PP being the isolated isomer which has a purer benefit/cost profile.

If it were active and inactive, you'd expect to have to dose Ergo twice as high as PP and that's not the case. People dose them the same.

I said that the 2-ene was the MORE anabolic/active.
I Love ergo- I like Erog better then Phera,.. Both the 2/3-ene are active and anabolic.
I of course beleive that the 3-ene is the more androgenic of the two isomers. I got hella hard, strong, ripped, and sex drive was better then on Phera (2-3n3 alone).

Anyways,.. Im not tring to go on about Ergomax, or Phera.

 

[Beebs]

I don't know if I would ever try something with the words "gona-die" in its formula.

 

[yeahright]

I don't know if I would ever try something with the words "gona-die" in its formula.

ROFL

 

[xtraflossy]

Thought I might bump this, see if anyone who hasn't been around for a while might be able to offer an opinion bout this stiff chemically

 

[Moyer]

"As you see, Propadrol consists of 2 separate compounds. I really can’t compare it to an existing product in the market place -- but I will try ….

6-17 dihydroxyetiochlone-3-ol-proponate, metabolizes quickly and increases endogenous levels of testosterone

12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene 17 – unique , but if I had too compare it to anything , I would compare to the now discontinued Max LMG… Again, ours is structured differently & I am sure you know that changing a compound slightly can alter how a compound metabolizes, aromatizes, etc…"

Also, aren't the dosages of these two products quite different (Xmass requires a much larger dose)?

 

[Moyer]

Also, does anyone have more info on the other ingredient in Propadrol?

6-17 dihydroxyetiocholone-3-ol proponate

 

[b unit]

i don't know about the chemistry side of it but 40caps per bottle is crazy!!!

 

[solarize]

Agree, I prefer Ergo over PP anyday of the week.

I said that the 2-ene was the MORE anabolic/active.
I Love ergo- I like Erog better then Phera,.. Both the 2/3-ene are active and anabolic.
I of course beleive that the 3-ene is the more androgenic of the two isomers. I got hella hard, strong, ripped, and sex drive was better then on Phera (2-3n3 alone).

Anyways,.. Im not tring to go on about Ergomax, or Phera.

 

[pistonpump]

sorry OT but if ergo is liked for the most part more than phera then i really have to find some. But then again i like being stronger, harder, and more horny, fukk it, I love Phera!

 

[thesinner]

Max LMG is 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one
Propadrol is 12-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-diene

Differences I noticed in their nomenclature:

I have never heard of, seen, or been able to look up the functional group: gona-.

Max LMG is 13-ethyl, the functional group is not only on a different carbon, but the pi bond between #13 and #14 will disappear to accomodate. For 12-ethyl, there's not carbon double bonds, and a proton is stripped for alkylation.

The two olefins (diene) on Max LMG are set on the 2 and 5 carbons. For propadrol, numbers are not assigned, implying that it may be a mixture of isomers.

17-one implies that there is a ketone (oxygen double bonded to the carbon) group on the 17-carbon.

*Disclaimer: I am still working on my degree, and companies are notorious for only giving part of the compound name.

 

[xtraflossy]

sorry OT but if ergo is liked for the most part more than phera then i really have to find some. But then again i like being stronger, harder, and more horny, fukk it, I love Phera!

ERGO will do all this BETTER then Phera. (Not so much IMO, but 3-ene is VERY androgenic)

 

[pistonpump]

i need to find some ergo. sounds like ergo phera stack would be sweet! but, back to the topic.

 

[Moyer]

i need to find some ergo. sounds like ergo phera stack would be sweet!

:blink:

 

[yeahright]

i need to find some ergo. sounds like ergo phera stack would be sweet! but, back to the topic.

You could blend them but don't stack them. The compounds are so similar that they could be considered interchangeable. So you might do 10mg PP and 10mg Ergo to be the equivalent of what would otherwise be a 20mg PP or Ergo dose....but don't double-up on them thinking that they'll have some synergistic effect.

The thoughts at the time when PP was first released was that since they were so similar, this combination was essentially an exception to the "don't stack methyls" rule.

I know of people who did this without apparent ill effect. Your mileage may vary.

 

[wojo]

i just threw out 2 bottles of ergo hated it. did it literally last night..lol

 

[pistonpump]

You could blend them but don't stack them. The compounds are so similar that they could be considered interchangeable. So you might do 10mg PP and 10mg Ergo to be the equivalent of what would otherwise be a 20mg PP or Ergo dose....but don't double-up on them thinking that they'll have some synergistic effect.

The thoughts at the time when PP was first released was that since they were so similar, this combination was essentially an exception to the "don't stack methyls" rule.

I know of people who did this without apparent ill effect. Your mileage may vary.

Sorry my vocab was off there but that's what i meant guys. Instead of 30mg pp, ratio it out to add up to 30mg between the two compounds. Maybe experiment with 20mg ergo 10mg pp or 10mg ergo 20mg pp etc. to find the right mix.

 

[xtraflossy]

ERGO was a 70/30 mix of the two isomers.
The 2-ene was the lower portion of it.

There WOULD be a synnergistic effect when stacking PP with it -kinda-sorta.
Phera on it's own does wonders anabolicly,.. if you could also make phera much more androgenic, you'd have,.. um Ergo. But the Ergo wouldn't be as anabolic dose per dose as the phera.

IF, you threw in some phera with the Ergo, to equate to your "normal dose" of phera, you'd see a major difference in the way things would turn out.
Kinda like a Phera cycle with something very androgenic thrown in, that is also anabolic.

If you just upped the dose of Ergo until you hit 20mg of 2-ene, you'd be poppin over 4 pills daily of Ergo. And the sides would become apparent.

I love the stuff. I felt like a beast on it. I looked the part too, and Imoved some serious weight.
I never got anything like that with Phera.

 

[bigSMokey]

Differences I noticed in their nomenclature:

I have never heard of, seen, or been able to look up the functional group: gona-.

Never knew what it meant either. So I did some digging and found that gona- comes from gonane which is basically the carbon skeleton of test with both methyls stripped off. Or, androstane without the two methyls, if you prefer.

It turns out that gonane is in the analagous line of the androgen structures that we're used to. It's estrane (deca skeleton) with it's one methyl removed, or androstane (test skeleton) with both methyls removed.

 

[bigSMokey]

So Iguess I have 2 questions (let me know if Im beating a dead horse here..)

1) Are there carbon atoms that can be taken away from the 13-ethyl? (which would make it the 12-ethyl in Propadrol...??)

Yes there are carbon atoms that can be removed and they have all been removed. With propadrol, the ethyl is simply moved one over to the 12, and the 13 position of course is left with a hydrogen.

So, with MAX LMG you had the familiar 13-ethyl as seen in the BALCO labs "scandal" compound norbolethone. Norbol was a nandrolone derivative, starting with the methyl being lengthened to an ethyl.

With MAX you had alkylation in the familar "dip" (the "fused" carbon, at C-13. See the attachment in thesinner's post for clarity). But, with this propadrol, you have a fairly unusual alkylation on the outer ring area, midmoleule. This area is a very uncommon place for alkylation in anabolic steroids.

2) What part of the chain are the .-spiro-1',2'-o xiranes??
(what the hell is a "xiranes"???)

An oxirane is an epoxide (think "havoc" with an oxygen instead of sulfur). However, it appears this compound is part of the synthesis and is not an actual anabolic.

 

[xtraflossy]

Damn - BigSmonkey, your the MAN!!
I'd give all the reps I could to you for this, but apparently, I have already done this, and need to spread some love.

But I will.........

 

[thesinner]

Never knew what it meant either. So I did some digging and found that gona- comes from gonane which is basically the carbon skeleton of test with both methyls stripped off. Or, androstane without the two methyls, if you prefer.

It turns out that gonane is in the analagous line of the androgen structures that we're used to. It's estrane (deca skeleton) with it's one methyl removed, or androstane (test skeleton) with both methyls removed.

Thanks for clarifying the infamous gona- group. Reps!

 

[bigSMokey]

Damn - BigSmonkey, your the MAN!!
I'd give all the reps I could to you for this, but apparently, I have already done this, and need to spread some love.

But I will.........

Thanks man, it's appreciated. I'm glad you found and brought up the structural analogy between propadrol and MAX LMG. Due to all the hype, I was considering trying the prop, but since it so closely resembles MAX LMG, I'm gonna wait for more feedback. MAX was not very well liked by many, and that's with having the nandrolone-type structure. Without it, propadrol may be even worse. But then again, maybe moving that ethyl group and removing that nandro resemblance could aleviate some/all of the progestin side effects. And I believe that progestin issues were the main complaint with MAX. But anyways, reps.

 

[riskarb]

i need to find some ergo. sounds like ergo phera stack would be sweet! but, back to the topic.

Ha, I am the only guy that bought 20 bottles of ergo when N-P was blowing it out?

 

[xtraflossy]

Ha, I am the only guy that bought 20 bottles of ergo when N-P was blowing it out?

Put this on my list of dumb things Ive done, but I stocked up on what I THOUGHT was erog, but was actually a SD clone...which was later found to be nothing but DHEA:icon_lol:

 

[solarize]

EDITED POST: Don't do this using AM resources please.

 

[stxnas]

Also, does anyone have more info on the other ingredient in Propadrol?

6-17 dihydroxyetiocholone-3-ol proponate

I know this is an old thread, but I just answered this on another forum. I thought I would throw up my post here for anybody else that is wondering the same thing...it's an AI.

This is a quote from ARLI:
"6,17-dioxo-etiocholene-3-ol (A.K.A. 3-OHAT) is a natural occurring metabolite of the popular anti-aromatase supplement 4-androstene- 3,6,17-trione (AT) mentioned prior. It possesses a much longer half-life (stays active in the body longer) thus allowing for improved efficiency from a single daily dosage. Additionally it is noted as a non-androgenic aromatase inhibitor. This means that 3-OHAT is an excellent fast-acting long-term destroyer of the testosterone limiting Estrogen-Negative-Feed-Back-Loop...and does not stimulate androgen receptors of the hypothalamus and the Androgen-Negative-Feed-Back-Loop. Studies have shown that even acting alone, 3-OHAT increases HPTA activity resulting in more testosterone production via natural pathways in humans and animals."

 

[thesinner]

I know this is an old thread, but I just answered this on another forum. I thought I would throw up my post here for anybody else that is wondering the same thing...it's an AI.

This is a quote from ARLI:
"6,17-dioxo-etiocholene-3-ol (A.K.A. 3-OHAT) is a natural occurring metabolite of the popular anti-aromatase supplement 4-androstene- 3,6,17-trione (AT) mentioned prior. It possesses a much longer half-life (stays active in the body longer) thus allowing for improved efficiency from a single daily dosage. Additionally it is noted as a non-androgenic aromatase inhibitor. This means that 3-OHAT is an excellent fast-acting long-term destroyer of the testosterone limiting Estrogen-Negative-Feed-Back-Loop...and does not stimulate androgen receptors of the hypothalamus and the Androgen-Negative-Feed-Back-Loop. Studies have shown that even acting alone, 3-OHAT increases HPTA activity resulting in more testosterone production via natural pathways in humans and animals."

This sounds and looks very similar to formestane.

 

[stxnas]

I'm not real familiar with formestane...I don't know that I have ever even seen its nomenclature.

 

[thesinner]

I'm not real familiar with formestane...I don't know that I have ever even seen its nomenclature.

Formestane would be 4-hydroxy-androstenedione, to give a slightly more systematic name. I'm not as familiar with the etiocholene nomenclatures (if you know of any synonyms), but they definitely seem close.

 

[thesinner]

bigsmokey said something earlier that interested me...he said havoc with an oxygen instead of sulfur...on the bottle of epistane it says this product contains sulfur, is havoc the exact compound as epistane...because he said havoc has an oxygen instead of sulfur...any comments? maybe I'm missing something...

Havoc definitely contains sulfur. You can smell a thio from a mile away. Big smokey is refering to an oxirane, which is a carbon ring with an oxygen in it. He was using havoc to give a example.

 

[Riquee]

How androgenic would Propadrol be ? anyone knows the andro/anab. ratio? can't find it anywhere

 

[TripDog]

How androgenic would Propadrol be ? anyone knows the andro/anab. ratio? can't find it anywhere

Bump this question

 

[xtraflossy]

Bump this question

Sorry trip, just spent an hour searching patents again, looking for SOMETHING...
It's hard enough finding references to to the more known chemical 13-