Nolvadex while on Tren - Is it a huge issue?
- 07-24-2006, 02:24 AM
Nolvadex while on Tren - Is it a huge issue?
So I'm having a little trouble sleeping so I thought I would make this post...
Some of you have probably read my recent posts on gyno trouble on my Test/Tren cycle. To repeat a little of my problem, I noticed the lump under my left nipple a little over a week ago. I had been running letro ED @.25 ml ~ about .30mg. I missed two doses, and noticed the lump after this. I started taking letro at about 1ml/2.25mg ED since then. I have not noticed any decrease in size since taking this. There was one day I took 30mg of tamoxifen, and two days later my lump had shrunk. I didn't notice any prolactin sides. The next day (3rd day without nolva) the gyno returned to how it was originally. Keep in mind I had been taking 1ml of letro this entire time.
I've had gyno pop up three times on my last cycle of test/dbol. Each time I treated it with nolva and it went away. This is my fourth run in with gyno, except now I'm on test/tren and have tried to stay away from the nolva because of prolactin issues. My question is if I treat the gyno with nolva at 20mg ED and continue on letro at .25mg ED, will prolactin be a huge problem, or is it only at higher doses it causes trouble? Do I need to drop the tren to be safe?
I have a feeling the gyno has come from the leftover estrodiol from the Synovex after conversion, hence why an AI will not do anything to treat it. I haven't noticed the lump increasing in size, but it has been itching and aching a little which makes me still worry. If it wasn't growing, and wasn't itching or aching I wouldn't worry too much about it. Since it is, it is an issue. Suggestions would be very much appreciated.
- 07-24-2006, 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
- 07-24-2006, 05:51 AM
Get to the doc man. This should be a no brainer when it comes to your body.
07-24-2006, 11:29 AM
Cmon its just gyno if he has letro and nolva he can treat it himself...its not an abscess or cardiovascular issue. a doctor will simply give him a steroids are bad speech and tell him to get off all gear. PCT? Probably never heard of that.
like i said, i had the same problem with tren gyno and letro did not rectify the issue. you just said yourself the nolva worked. continue to use it at whatever dose you want until it goes away and then take 10-15 mgs a day to keep it at bay. THEN if its still a problem drop the tren.
if you are worried about prolactin, pick up some dostinex. nolva works just stick with it.
07-24-2006, 11:39 AM
I thought he said nolva and such isn't clearing it up?
07-24-2006, 12:20 PM
if i were him id drop the letro completely. if anything it messed with tamoxifen's effectiveness with my gyno. i also was using the combination leto/nolva and only when i completely dropped the letro and stuck with tamoxifen did my gyno deflate.Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
07-24-2006, 12:31 PM
thanks jomi, i appreciate the help. i really am not completely worried about prolactin since i didnt see a problem last time but then again i only took the nolva once so i dont know. but at a dose as small as 20mg i dont see it being a huge problem. ill take your advice and drop the letro. to make it worse, i havent gained an extra pound since being on the letro. the stuff seems super strong yet not at all helping anything i want it to. its like im fighting fire with fire.
there is no way im going to see a doctor. its not to that point. its not like i have a boob or anything. its just a small lump. i dont even know if it would get worse or not. i always have had a tiny lump under my left nipple and everytime im on cycle it seems to act up but hasnt gotten to the point where it gets real big or anything so far. i dont want to speak too soon though.
i just dont know what to think about my body and gear. it seems like way more of a hassle than its worth. i get problems like this and the gains arent really even there. ive been on for about 4 weeks and have only gained a couple pounds. diet is good. even if i dont see any weight gain i should see some strength increase but not really any to speak of.
07-24-2006, 12:41 PM
no problem tell us how it works out. i didnt notice too much strengthwise until only recently and i have been on for 56 days. the tren seemed to take awhile but its really slapping the strength onto my lifts now, give it another week or two.Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
07-24-2006, 12:55 PM
Keep in mind that tamoxifen (nolvadex) can increase & activate progesterone receptors in breast tissue. Tren is a progestin. This could lead to gyno symptoms.
Also, letro is known to lower progesterone receptor concentrations.
Just some food for thought... izza:
07-24-2006, 01:29 PM
Did you start your letro prior to starting your cycle?? Most start the letro at least 2 weeks before starting a cycle. It takes time for letro to reach a steady blood plasma level.. If you did not start it before your cycle and you missed a few doses that is possibly your problem. Most people who use synovex (and you told me you used a estrogen solubilizer when you converted it) have little problem with left over estrogen ( this is just from what I have seen when people use synovex)..Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
07-24-2006, 01:29 PM
ya, this is exactly why i started the thread. im just not sure if at a low dose im going to have to worry about it or not. this is my first time on a progesterone. thats why i considered taking .25mg of letro as well but as jomi said he didnt see his gyno go away until he dropped the letro completely. i also read that taking tamoxifen while using letro decreases the effectiveness of letro by 70%. it was in some study someone on here posted.Originally Posted by Mass_69
07-24-2006, 01:32 PM
mercedes, i started the letro the first day on cycle. the gyno didnt come up until week 3. so yes, i was on the letro for over 2 weeks before the gyno happened.
07-24-2006, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Mass_69
^^^^^^^ I have said this over and over again lol..... Jomi is the only person I have ever heard of using nolva while using a progestin and having success with treating gyno( glad to hear it worked for him though.).. In most cases nolva makes gyno worse due to the fact it increaes PgR and gives more of trens nasty metoblites to bind to..
07-24-2006, 01:37 PM
I posted that study about nolva decreasing the effects of letro but it is not set in stone as this is a topic that has many diffrent conflicting studies.. One study shows it does and one study shows it doesnt....Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
07-24-2006, 01:46 PM
i dont know what to think. as i said earlier, it worked for me just that one 30mg dose. i jsut really dont feel like forking otu another $50 on caber. this cycle is already costing much more than i expected. it would be one thing if the gains were there, but they arent.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
07-24-2006, 01:49 PM
I still think your problem is that your estrogen level crept up to high on you not so much the left over estrogen from the synovex IMO ... This is from the letro profile..Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
Letrozole has a whopping 2-4 day (!) ½ life, and you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level
By starting the letro on the same day as your cycle and not letting it build a steady level is probably the cause of your problem.. IMO Letro will also lower your total estrogen level so it would be a benefit either way....
07-24-2006, 01:51 PM
im confused as hell. all i know is letro hasnt worked and has greatly hindered my gains. nolva worked and didnt hinder gains whatsoever. i dont know what to do. if i knew that i could take letro at .25 mg ed, the gyno wouldnt worsen, and it would go away during post cycle therapy then i would be all for it. all im going by is that letro has done nothing for my gyno (thus far) and has prevented me from gaining any extra weight or strength. thus far the cycle has been pointless. i dont know if i should continue it and run letro at .25mg, if i should drop the cycle and start post cycle therapy, if i should drop the letro and run nolva at 20mg ed...there are so many options. all of which ahve their pros and cons.
07-24-2006, 01:56 PM
If you get/or are prone to prolactin induced gyno then pick up some cabergoline (sp?) there's a few research chem co's who have it for a decent price.
I'm almost positvive that nolva and or letro will not help prolactin induced gyno (almost as in nothing is really certain in science).
07-24-2006, 02:01 PM
I hear ya buddy it gets costly ... Caber is good to use while using tren but will only help with prolactin and not sure if it will help ya ( prolactin effects the mammary gland and can cause lactating) .. And progesterone is usually not a concern when estrogen levels are in check.. Also letro will reduce progersterone receptors unlike nolva which can increase progesterone receptors( PgR) also as I said letro will lower your esterogen level... I think it is mostly a estrogen problem.. Are you very bloated in your face and or body??Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
07-24-2006, 02:12 PM
Correct letro or nolva will not help with prolactin .. Remember prolactin and progesterone two different hormonesOriginally Posted by wideguy
07-24-2006, 02:22 PM
im not bloated at all. im very dry.
07-24-2006, 02:40 PM
Man it gets tricky!!! You can try to experiment with the nolva if you think it will help.. just keep a close eye on it.. Keep us posted on what you choose to do and how it turns out for you... Good luck!!!!Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
07-24-2006, 03:13 PM
I missed all the posts in this thread since my last post. I probably should have made that more clear... Glad you pointed it out Mercedes.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
That was my point of bringing up progesterone, as the start of this thread talks about Nolva, Tren, and prolactin.
07-24-2006, 03:37 PM
I understand that these cycles get expensive and all that, but I think you should go with the caber.
07-24-2006, 04:28 PM
Was just thinking you could try tore which is also a SERM and it does not raise PgR like nolva.....
07-24-2006, 06:24 PM
ya i thought of that. i think im going to try the nolva at 20 mg ed and letro at .25mg ed.
07-24-2006, 07:13 PM
then again i may drop the tren, raise my test dosage, and stay on nolva for the rest of the cycle. i dont know. whatever. ill figure it out.
07-25-2006, 02:05 AM
Actually Mulletsoldier posted some studies that suggest that they don't, ether way here if it was a screwed up pellet conversion the only way to really treat this is A. discontinue the the steroids, and B use nolvadex. Nolvadex is as far as I know the ONLY drug proven to reduce gyno after you get it/have it. Others probably do as well but nolvadex has a long history, and we know from prevous problems that others have had that it works for gyno caused by tren, deca, and everything else. gyno is caused by estrogen, nolvadex blocks estrogen at the places that estrogen would cause gyno.Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
In short we know that nolvadex works for gyno, I would recomend that you goes with what we know works.
07-25-2006, 04:36 PM
this is exactly my mentality. so far, the only thing that has worked for my gyno problems is nolvadex. why not continue using it? i dont know what you mean though by screwed up pellet conversion. the conversion went fine. im just easily effected by high estrogen. its a curse.Originally Posted by Skye
07-25-2006, 06:20 PM
Sorry, looking at that now I see that it sounds bad. I was referring to there being leftover estradiol benzoate in the test. if the conversion goes correctly there really shouldn't be any (that is less then 500mcg per gram of test) if there is too much estradiol left over the only counter to it is a SERM, period. All the AIs in the world won't work if the stuff is already formed.Originally Posted by Irish Cannon
For what its worth I have a new procedure that should allow for the conversion of Synovex H to testosterone deaconate. I will be testing this next month hopefully.
07-25-2006, 08:18 PM
sounds good. im interested to hear the results of it. i have to make up a second batch since im running low. when i was doing the filtering, i put too much air into the vial when i was loading the syrringe. the rubber top blew off and i lost about 20ml. some went in my eye. i laugh about it now. i was pissed when it happened. luckily i didnt go blind. the shirt i was wearing still smells like the oil no matter how much i wash it. it was definitely a learning experience. haha.Originally Posted by Skye
07-25-2006, 09:45 PM
hey mercedesdd have a question. You said that progesterones cannot cause gyno (lump type) but yet i still got it from only using M1t and Methyl d as standalone cycles never together. Can you explain this to me.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
07-25-2006, 10:24 PM
Hey mega, I dont know much about M1t and methyl dianolone ... Maybe someone else could give you some input on that.. Might want to start your own thread so this one is not hijacked lol !!!!Originally Posted by megadose
07-25-2006, 10:50 PM
yeah i know what you mean so i make it quick. both M1T M Dien are progestins for sure. Really don't know how i gyno from them since there progestins. BTW started Letro today at .50 mg see if i can get rid of this crap.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
07-25-2006, 10:58 PM
Again not sure about those compounds but your estrogen begin to high could be the cause but i dunno for sure.. Please keep us posted on your results and best of luck to you buddy....Originally Posted by megadose
07-26-2006, 02:20 PM
it is accepted to a certain degree that anadrol can attatch to the estrogen receptor as well as the androgen receptor. it wouldnt surprise me is m1t did the same thing as the gains seen with adrol and m1t are both ridiculously explosive.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
07-26-2006, 02:27 PM
Mdien is structurally similar to Tren (a progestin), but M1T is closer to DHT. It's basically dehydrogenated Dbol.Originally Posted by megadose
I kinda like Jomi's theory, though, about the similarity to adrol. Too bad there are no studies on M1T... the world may never know.
07-26-2006, 02:50 PM
I've seen good success running 20 ml of Nolva with 1 pill of Rebound during cycle to keep newly formed gyno at bay. Once in PCT, raise the dosages of both and run until the lump disappears or goes dormant.
This was done for a fairly high dose 4AD/19 Nor/1Test cycle so there's all kinds of booby metabolites with that one.
07-26-2006, 03:56 PM
ive been taking 20mg of tamox for the past 3 days without letro. ill let you guys know how it goes.
07-27-2006, 10:13 PM
let us know how it works, maybe we can settle this whole use 10000mgs of letro a night business with a simple 20mg a day of nolva.
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