deca gyno

[megadose]

Found this info on the net

So in researching prolactin / progesterone gyno, I found two schools of thought. One school says that anti aromatase drugs will prevent prolactin / progesterone related gyno. This is summarized in Spidey's post below. Another school says that anti aromatase drugs do not help with prolactin / progesterone related gyno, summarized in Macro's post below.

Thoughts? Anybody have any definitive research either way?


School #1 Spidey:

"Gyno is the result of at least 4 different hormones working in concert; estrogen, progesterone, prolactin, and IGF-1. If you eliminate ANY of the four, gyno can't develop.

Bromo is a very harsh drug and it makes many nausous. If you MUST use a prolactin suppressing drug, dostinex is much more potent and has fewer sides. Any of the anti aromatase drugs (l-dex, arimidex, letrazole, aromasin) WILL work to prevent gyno as they prevent estrogen, a necessary hormone for gyno to develop. After you already have gyno, nolvadex is the best choice IMO.

There really isn't any difference in the gyno caused by deca or tren and that caused by aromatizing AAS. They ALL need estrogen to develop and grow. Without estrogen, you could inject pure progesterone and you wouldn't develop gyno.

Large doses of vitamin B6 has been shown to lower prolactin and would also help prevent or reduce gyno. Unlike bromo or even dostinex, B6 doesn't have ANY sides."


School #2
"Deca and You by Macro
A short reply to 2thick- on the anabolic board

In honor of Ranger-who knows well the potential evils of Deca

Nandrolone, popularly known as Deca, is a classified as a progestin. Deca derives many of its benefits from its progestenic nature: including, but not limited to, increase IM fat storage and increased fluid retention in the joints from glucocorticoid(GC) stimulation.

This brings us to the second most common problem with the use of progestenic drugs like Deca, the breast tissue has both PR(progesterone receptors) and ER(estrogen receptors) and stimulation of either will result in new tissue formation and growth. This will vary considerably from individual to individuals based on the numbers and ratio of receptors in the tissue. Some individuals have more PR, which will make them more susceptable to Gyno. Another suspected factor is that there are slightly physiologically different PR, as well as ER and AR, which may effect binding and expression of synthetic progestins either positively or negatively.

The use of Anti-estrogens and Aromatase-inhibitors will help by reducing stimulation of the ER in the breast tissue. However, those with high concentrations of PR or PR whose physiology allows for greater binding or expression of progestins will be faced with developing Gynomacastia.

In short

1. DECA **** is real

2. DECA does cause Gyno

3. DECA is progestin it must be fought with anti-progestins

4. Use of Nolvadex and Arimidex will help, but only by reducing ER stimulation.

Peace"

 

[linznmike1305]

I gotta question i got anavar EQ and Cypionate... i only wanna stack one of the two with anavar... i have a real mild case of gyno ppl say they cant tell but i can i dont need that gettin any worse arrimidex is looking good, but is cyp - test out of the question to stack then would that effect my gyno... whats a better stack ?

 

[mercedesdd]

Found this info on the net

So in researching prolactin / progesterone gyno, I found two schools of thought. One school says that anti aromatase drugs will prevent prolactin / progesterone related gyno. This is summarized in Spidey's post below. Another school says that anti aromatase drugs do not help with prolactin / progesterone related gyno, summarized in Macro's post below.

Thoughts? Anybody have any definitive research either way?


School #1 Spidey:

"Gyno is the result of at least 4 different hormones working in concert; estrogen, progesterone, prolactin, and IGF-1. If you eliminate ANY of the four, gyno can't develop.

Bromo is a very harsh drug and it makes many nausous. If you MUST use a prolactin suppressing drug, dostinex is much more potent and has fewer sides. Any of the anti aromatase drugs (l-dex, arimidex, letrazole, aromasin) WILL work to prevent gyno as they prevent estrogen, a necessary hormone for gyno to develop. After you already have gyno, nolvadex is the best choice IMO.

There really isn't any difference in the gyno caused by deca or tren and that caused by aromatizing anabolic steroids. They ALL need estrogen to develop and grow. Without estrogen, you could inject pure progesterone and you wouldn't develop gyno.

Large doses of vitamin B6 has been shown to lower prolactin and would also help prevent or reduce gyno. Unlike bromo or even dostinex, B6 doesn't have ANY sides."


School #2
"Deca and You by Macro
A short reply to 2thick- on the anabolic board

In honor of Ranger-who knows well the potential evils of Deca

Nandrolone, popularly known as Deca, is a classified as a progestin. Deca derives many of its benefits from its progestenic nature: including, but not limited to, increase IM fat storage and increased fluid retention in the joints from glucocorticoid(GC) stimulation.

This brings us to the second most common problem with the use of progestenic drugs like Deca, the breast tissue has both PR(progesterone receptors) and ER(estrogen receptors) and stimulation of either will result in new tissue formation and growth. This will vary considerably from individual to individuals based on the numbers and ratio of receptors in the tissue. Some individuals have more PR, which will make them more susceptable to Gyno. Another suspected factor is that there are slightly physiologically different PR, as well as ER and AR, which may effect binding and expression of synthetic progestins either positively or negatively.

The use of Anti-estrogens and Aromatase-inhibitors will help by reducing stimulation of the ER in the breast tissue. However, those with high concentrations of PR or PR whose physiology allows for greater binding or expression of progestins will be faced with developing Gynomacastia.

In short

1. DECA **** is real

2. DECA does cause Gyno

3. DECA is progestin it must be fought with anti-progestins

4. Use of Nolvadex and Arimidex will help, but only by reducing ER stimulation.

Peace"

If estrogen is kept in check progesterone gyno is usally not a concern . Also when using a 19 nor ( deca , tren ect) nolva should not be used .. Nolva will increase PgR and give more receptors for the deca/tren metabolites to bind to... And letro has been shown to reduce progesterone receptors so would be more of a benefit than adex when using a 19 nor IMO..

 

[megadose]

If estrogen is kept in check progesterone gyno is usally not a concern . Also when using a 19 nor ( deca , tren ect) nolva should not be used .. Nolva will increase PgR and give more receptors for the deca/tren metabolites to bind to... And letro has been shown to reduce progesterone receptors so would be more of a benefit than adex when using a 19 nor IMO..

what about the estradiol that deca is converted to how can that be avoided if Aromatase enzyme does not play a role.

 

[mercedesdd]

Also high doses of b-6 have been shown to cause nerve damage so what he said about b-6 and no sides is very untrue...... In a study I was reading ( cant find it right now) anything over 200 mg of b-6 ED can cause nerve damage and be toxic...

 

[mercedesdd]

what about the estradiol that deca is converted to how can that be avoided if Aromatase enzyme does not play a role.

First of all, Deca (and Nandrolone in general) doesn’t produce many estrogenic or androgenic side effects. This is because Deca has a very low rate of aromitization (conversion to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme), roughly equal to 20% the rate of Testosterone

 

[megadose]

hey mercedesdd i've read in your previous posts that progesterone
and progestins can increase nipple size but not actual lump is this right.

 

[mercedesdd]

hey mercedesdd i've read in your previous posts that progesterone
and progestins can increase nipple size but not actual lump is this right.

Usally Progesterone gyno will be enlargement of your nipple area, the actual aereola, not a lump under it.

 

[megadose]

First of all, Deca (and Nandrolone in general) doesn’t produce many estrogenic or androgenic side effects. This is because Deca has a very low rate of aromitization (conversion to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme), roughly equal to 20% the rate of Testosterone

so deca is not aromatized by the aromatase enzyme?

 

[mercedesdd]

so deca is not aromatized by the aromatase enzyme?

This is because Deca has a very low rate of aromitization (conversion to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme),

 

[megadose]

This is because Deca has a very low rate of aromitization (conversion to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme),

the reason why i was asking is because i also got this of the
net ........

Look at it like this: a normal guy produces something like 50 to 100mg test a week (I think). Natural test production is not completely shut down when on a cycle, just suppressed. Let's say for the sake of argument, it is decreased by 75%. Let's also say that you are taking 300 mg ew deca (many take higher doses). Deca aromatizes to estradiol at around half the rate as test so now you have the estrogen production equivalent to 12.5 to 25 mg test (25% natural production) plus 150mg test (from aromatization of deca). This adds up to the equivalent of 162.5 to 175 mg test or a 62.5% to 75% INCREASE in estrogen over normal levels. An antiaromatase would only marginally affect the estrogen levels since deca is aromatized by a different enzyme than aromatase. All an antiaromatase would affect is that 25% residiual test being aromatized. Letrazole inhibits aromatase to the tune of something like 80% so instead of 12.5 to 25 mg test being aromatized at the normal rate, it would only be equivalent to 2.5 to 5 mg being aromatized. BIG DEAL, you still have 152.5 to 155 mg or 52.5% to 55% OVER normal levels. Taking a SERM like nolva blocks something like 40% of the estrogen at normal doses so by taking nolva alone, your estrogen goes down to that which would be obtained from aromatizing 97.5 to 105 mg test at normal rates. THAT IS EQUIVALENT TO THE AMOUNT OF ESTROGEN A NORMAL GUY PRODUCES ANYWAY AND IS TWICE AS MUCH AS NORMAL FOR SOME GUYS. And you wonder why deca causes gyno????

 

[mercedesdd]

the reason why i was asking is because i also got this of the
net ........

Look at it like this: a normal guy produces something like 50 to 100mg test a week (I think). Natural test production is not completely shut down when on a cycle, just suppressed. Let's say for the sake of argument, it is decreased by 75%. Let's also say that you are taking 300 mg ew deca (many take higher doses). Deca aromatizes to estradiol at around half the rate as test so now you have the estrogen production equivalent to 12.5 to 25 mg test (25% natural production) plus 150mg test (from aromatization of deca). This adds up to the equivalent of 162.5 to 175 mg test or a 62.5% to 75% INCREASE in estrogen over normal levels. An antiaromatase would only marginally affect the estrogen levels since deca is aromatized by a different enzyme than aromatase. All an antiaromatase would affect is that 25% residiual test being aromatized. Letrazole inhibits aromatase to the tune of something like 80% so instead of 12.5 to 25 mg test being aromatized at the normal rate, it would only be equivalent to 2.5 to 5 mg being aromatized. BIG DEAL, you still have 152.5 to 155 mg or 52.5% to 55% OVER normal levels. Taking a SERM like nolva blocks something like 40% of the estrogen at normal doses so by taking nolva alone, your estrogen goes down to that which would be obtained from aromatizing 97.5 to 105 mg test at normal rates. THAT IS EQUIVALENT TO THE AMOUNT OF ESTROGEN A NORMAL GUY PRODUCES ANYWAY AND IS TWICE AS MUCH AS NORMAL FOR SOME GUYS. And you wonder why deca causes gyno????

Lots of wrong facts in that... Thats why you have to research things on your own... Anyone can say anything and if you just listen to them and dont do the research on your own how do you know what they are saying is true.. It is best to study things and learn for yourself so you know what is begin said is correct... You are headed in the right direction so I dont mind helping you but you need to keep doing the research so you can understand everything for yourself.. I mean I could just sit here and feed you a bunch of info but without checking it out yourself how do you know I am correct... Again I see you are willing to research and seem very eager to learn and dont mind helping you out for those reasons..

 

[megadose]

Lots of wrong facts in that... Thats why you have to research things on your own... Anyone can say anything and if you just listen to them and dont do the research on your own how do you know what they are saying is true.. It is best to study things and learn for yourself so you know what is begin said is correct... You are headed in the right direction so I dont mind helping you but you need to keep doing the research so you can understand everything for yourself.. I mean I could just sit here and feed you a bunch of info but without checking it out yourself how do you know I am correct... Again I see you are willing to research and seem very eager to learn and dont mind helping you out for those reasons..

thanks man i've been at it the past couple of weeks mainly because i made the biggest mistake of cycling without knowing exactly what i was putting in and doing and doing to my body and i am not going to make that mistake again. I got gyno because of it and iam now tryin to reverse and also tryin to understand why and i got it. BTW i heard of letro getting rid of gyno, iam going to order some soon for my rats any suggestions?

 

[mercedesdd]

thanks man i've been at it the past couple of weeks mainly because i made the biggest mistake of cycling without knowing exactly what i was putting in and doing and doing to my body and i am not going to make that mistake again. I got gyno because of it and iam now tryin to reverse and also tryin to understand why and i got it. BTW i heard of letro getting rid of gyno, iam going to order some soon for my rats any suggestions?

Yea try my buddys gyno letro reversal protocol I have posted in the past...

 

[megadose]

Yea try my buddys gyno letro reversal protocol I have posted in the past...

yeah just read should i use clomind to prevent estro rebound.

 

[mercedesdd]

yeah just read should i use clomind to prevent estro rebound.

Make sure you taper the letro dose down like layed out in the protocol and use nolva at the end not clomid.....

 

[megadose]

Make sure you taper the letro dose down like layed out in the protocol and use nolva at the end not clomid.....

why clomid is weaker than nolva at blocking the ER right.

 

[mercedesdd]

why clomid is weaker than nolva at blocking the ER right.

Basically clomid would take a much higher dose to do the same thing as nolva.. Just as an example 20mg of nolva will raise test levels about 150%. Clomid would require 150mg to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone..

 

[megadose]

Basically clomid would take a much higher dose to do the same thing as nolva.. Just as an example 20mg of nolva will raise test levels about 150%. Clomid would require 150mg to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone..

so this is wrong?

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) : This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in post cycle therapy, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all anabolic steroids esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

 

[mercedesdd]

so this is wrong?

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) : This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in post cycle therapy, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all anabolic steroids esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during post cycle therapy. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your post cycle therapy. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

This is more accurate IMO..

but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH
(Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal.

 

[megadose]

IMO a SERM (Selective estrogen receptor modulator) like clomid or nolva would work in the same way... I would rather use nolva for reasons I stated in my prior post....

OK got it :thumbsup:

 

[mercedesdd]

OK got it :thumbsup:

It is very late(after 3am) and was not totally right on that lol.. See my other post above for a more accurate answer

 

[megadose]

It is very late(after 3am) and was not totally right on that lol.. See my other post above for a more accurate answer

don't worry man, i was tired as well. Anyway, iam really curious how i got gyno(the lump kind) from using M1T alone can you explain this.

 

[megadose]

don't worry man, i was tired as well. Anyway, iam really curious how i got gyno(the lump kind) from using M1T alone can you explain this.

???

 

[canadian champ]

Make sure you taper the letro dose down like layed out in the protocol and use nolva at the end not clomid.....

Is nolva necessary for rebound control? Maybe switching to RR would be good?
cc

 

[megadose]

Is nolva necessary for rebound control? Maybe switching to RR would be good?
cc

nolva would be best

 

[Mess]

Also high doses of b-6 have been shown to cause nerve damage so what he said about b-6 and no sides is very untrue...... In a study I was reading ( cant find it right now) anything over 200 mg of b-6 ED can cause nerve damage and be toxic...

well thats right but only for doses more than 400 mg or 500 mg a day and you can tell that you are taking too much when your hands start numing .
300 mg a day of B6 should do what it does to help prevent lactating .

Cheers

 

[mercedesdd]

well thats right but only for doses more than 400 mg or 500 mg a day and you can tell that you are taking too much when your hands start numing .
300 mg a day of B6 should do what it does to help prevent lactating .

Cheers

I cant find the study I was talking about it is somewhere on my CPU lol.. But this is from a different study..


More than 200mg/ED has been known to damage to the nervous system.

The Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine has established a tolerable intake level (UL) for vitamin B6 of 100 mg per day for all adults.

 

[Ubiquitous]

^^^ true.. damage to the basal ganglia...

if you experience headaches.. drop it.