4AD to test base

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  1. So the chineese companies selling this are getting it from his manufacture?


  2. Hey anybody tried this yet lol .. i have enough 4ad cyp to kill a horse lol
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  3. Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
    So the chineese companies selling this are getting it from his manufacture?
    At this point, most chinese companies do not respect patents for drugs. So, they are making it on their own.
  4. Chemist's comment


    "The site looks like it supplies the material commonly used in chemical lab procedures, and would be what you want. You may want to consider the powdered and granular forms. If mixed in properly, the powered material will react faster. Sometimes finely divided material is hard to mix in, clumping together. The granular may be easier to handle and provide
    a more controlled reaction."

    Just a quote to pass along from a chemist I know...

  5. Just curious, did anybody actually ever try to make test base from ad-ad and if so, how did it work out?

    p.s. learned alot about SARS and other things from this post.....

  6. lol yeah i was wondering if anyone tried it as well .... i have tons of 4ad and 4adcyp .. would much rather have tons of test and test cyp lol

  7. forgot to mention id try it but id have no way to test it to see if it turned into test..

  8. Originally posted by crazypete
    JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY
    #75 (1953)
    page 5930
    sondheimer et al.

    METHOD:

    i am looking for a source of activated manganes dioxide so that the above does not need to be performed. once we get the manganes dioxide, all we have to do is mix the 4AD, MnO2 and chloroform in the ratios above, basically add the 4AD to chloroform on the magnetic stirrer and then add the MnO2 and leave it for 3 hours at room temp. add methanol to the solution and the test will crystalize and fall out of solution. filter and wash well with methanol. collect the filtrate and filter again on new filter paper and dry all the filter papers. if the filtrate still has crystals, filter with another paper. i would dry the first filter paper out well for a few days and weigh it. if its more than 80% yield, i wouldn't waste time trying to get the rest. if not, then take the filtrate and refilter to get rest of crystals. you kind of play it by ear. that's pretty much it.....oh yeah, don't forget to discard the powder properly as this is an experiment

    it is possible that much less MnO2 can be used. this will mean that the reaction will have to sit longer maybe a day or two, i don't really know. this will have to be found out. i want to try this in the lab where i can measure the ultraviolet spectrum to determine how long the complete reaction takes with different amounts of MnO2 and chloroform so as to minimize cost.

    why did i not do it step by step? well if you can't figure it out, then you probably shouldn't be doing it.
    Your misinterpretation of this method is obvious to a real chemist and is actually quite entertaining. Leave this type of work to those who actually understand how to read and follow a method.

  9. Hey DDD does this mean the conversion wont work ... or you just need to use the large amounts like it says..
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  10. Wow triple d rather cutting without an interpretation, Im assuming you are a chemist and i will discuss with you on those terms. I am not a chemist but I do have some interest in the subject and have done some self study. Just dont shoot down people who are trying to do something cool for everyone.

  11. This is my first post so here is some background about me. I DO NOT use steroids first and foremost. I do occasionally browse this section just for knowledge - plain and simple - and this article peaked my interest. I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemistry but I am certainly no expert in when it comes to biology. I have had organic chemistry and biochemistry in college so I do have somewhat of an understanding. I will agree with DDD that the inerpretation has been hacked up quite a bit but it does appear that he was on to something. I have read the article and unfortunately it is not very in depth and does not illustrate the chemical reactions. I used ChemID through the internet to obtain the chemical sturctures of testosterone and 4-androstene-3,17-diol. I compared these structures to an article from "Big Cat" in which he also has the two structures listed. Here is the problem, what big cat has listed is not the same structure as what is listed by ChemID. If the structure Big Cat has listed is correct, then this conversion will NOT take place. If the structure listed by ChemID is correct, then it will certainly take place as detailed in the article. The difference between ChemID and Big Cat is with the oxygen attached to the hexane ring (lower left in most drawings). big cat shows this as a double bond and ChemID shows it as an OH group. If ChemId is correct, the MnO2 will oxidise this OH group to a double bond forming Testosterone, MnO, and H2O. Now comes the second tricky part. Perhaps Big Cat and ChemID are both correct. I thought that perhaps what is sold in the bottle is labeled as 4-androstene-3,17-diol but it actually is just a variation of it. The 4AD may just be an "industry" labeling of something else (like what Big Cat has listed with his structure).
    Here are the websites I used to confirm the structures:
    http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh2.htm
    My question is - can anyone confirm what the chemical sturcture is of 4-androstene-3,17-diol (at least what is sold in the bottle).
    One more thing - please do not ask me, pm, email me, etc. on how to do this. I will not respond to any of them.
    Thanks,
    Chris

  12. Interesting I dont know which the correct structure is because wherever I look it up it is one of those two, Chemo will know though, the last couple of lines of your thread are kinda weird dude why suggest something and then ask not to be asked about it?

  13. There's nothing wrong with the conversion of 4-AD to Test. It's after that in the procedure he ****s up.

  14. Originally posted by maggmaster
    the last couple of lines of your thread are kinda weird dude why suggest something and then ask not to be asked about it?

    I didn't state that very well. What I meant was please don't ask me to help somebody make the stuff. What I don't want to see is"hey dude, can you make me some of this stuff". I may be good in Chemistry, but I never did well in English Please ask away though.
    Chris

  15. IF you go to this site it shows all the steroid structures:

    http://www.steraloids.com/
    click on view by group then 4-androsten
    then lcik on the name of the right one and it shows the compound..
    4-ANDROSTEN-3, 17-DIOL
    is it 3alpha 17 beta??? there are like 100 diff combinations..

  16. Originally posted by tommy_69
    IF you go to this site it shows all the steroid structures:

    http://www.steraloids.com/
    click on view by group then 4-androsten
    then lcik on the name of the right one and it shows the compound..
    4-ANDROSTEN-3, 17-DIOL
    is it 3alpha 17 beta??? there are like 100 diff combinations..
    Extremely useful website. thanks. It appears that the difference between the alpha and beta is the orientaion of the OH molecules (wether the OH faces towards you or away from you looking stright on). Also, it appears that big cat has an incorrect listing of the chemical structure. I'm not sure which Testosterone is more effective in the human body (the alpha or beta version). I believe that the CORRECT procedure outlined in the experiment will work. Just wanted to point out something else as well. The article states that commercial MnO2 performed poorly so the experimenters decidied to make their own. I would guess that in 1953 (when the article was written) there was not a reliable source of pure MnO2. I have never heard of "active" or "inactive" MnO2. Not saying it doesn't exist but it just doesn't make sense to me. MnO2 can be used as a mild oxidizer (like in the experiment) and sometimes (rarely?) as a reducing agent. It might be possible that the MnO2 decomposed to MnO making it inactive? from the commercial sources. If the bottle says MnO2, it should work. In regards to the amounts of reagents used, the chloroform was used purely as a carrier. Neither the 4-AD nor the MnO2 wer dissolved in the suspended solution. It appears that the MnO2 is the excess reagent and I wouldn't mess with the quantity. Like I said, MnO2 is only a mild oxidizer. The article then goes on to state that the two products (now testosterone and MnO) were filtered and washed with chloroform. The Testosterone was extracted using an acetone-hexane mixture which dissolved the test but left the MnO in the filter paper. The acetone-hexane mixture was then exaporated and the testosterone was left. The Test was identified by melting point and infrared. Hope this helps clear up some confusion.
    Chris

  17. ok sounds alot harder than doing syno ... i guess ill stick with that lol

  18. Wanted to post a correction from my last post. The report is extremely confusing and I reread it again. Apperently the 4-AD and MnO2 are suspended in the chloroform and mixed for 10 hours. The report then states that the MnO2 is filtered and washed with chloroform and the chloroform is evaporated away. I'm not sure if the test remains in the MnO2 crystals or the chloroform. I would assume the filtered crystals contain both the Test and the MnO2 since neither should dissolve in chloroform. What doesn't make sense is the report then goes on to state that the test was crystallized by using the acetone-hexane mixture. This doesn't make sense because I would think the test WOULD dissolve in an acetone/hexane mixture but the MnO2 would not. I'm also assuming the chloroform was evaporated away to make sure that no test remained in solution so a final amount of total conversion could be calculated.
    I also wanted to add a word of extreme caution. Chloroform is a known carcinogen (cancer causing). It is also heavier than air and the vapors will concentrate near the floor. It can also make you pass out.

  19. Sounds like something anyone could brew up at home!

    Originally posted by rotarnomore
    Wanted to post a correction from my last post. The report is extremely confusing and I reread it again. Apperently the 4-AD and MnO2 are suspended in the chloroform and mixed for 10 hours. The report then states that the MnO2 is filtered and washed with chloroform and the chloroform is evaporated away. I'm not sure if the test remains in the MnO2 crystals or the chloroform. I would assume the filtered crystals contain both the Test and the MnO2 since neither should dissolve in chloroform. What doesn't make sense is the report then goes on to state that the test was crystallized by using the acetone-hexane mixture. This doesn't make sense because I would think the test WOULD dissolve in an acetone/hexane mixture but the MnO2 would not. I'm also assuming the chloroform was evaporated away to make sure that no test remained in solution so a final amount of total conversion could be calculated.
    I also wanted to add a word of extreme caution. Chloroform is a known carcinogen (cancer causing). It is also heavier than air and the vapors will concentrate near the floor. It can also make you pass out.

  20. Originally posted by rotarnomore
    Wanted to post a correction from my last post. The report is extremely confusing and I reread it again. Apperently the 4-AD and MnO2 are suspended in the chloroform and mixed for 10 hours. The report then states that the MnO2 is filtered and washed with chloroform and the chloroform is evaporated away. I'm not sure if the test remains in the MnO2 crystals or the chloroform. I would assume the filtered crystals contain both the Test and the MnO2 since neither should dissolve in chloroform. What doesn't make sense is the report then goes on to state that the test was crystallized by using the acetone-hexane mixture. This doesn't make sense because I would think the test WOULD dissolve in an acetone/hexane mixture but the MnO2 would not. I'm also assuming the chloroform was evaporated away to make sure that no test remained in solution so a final amount of total conversion could be calculated.
    I also wanted to add a word of extreme caution. Chloroform is a known carcinogen (cancer causing). It is also heavier than air and the vapors will concentrate near the floor. It can also make you pass out.
    Nice attempt but still wrong. I haven't even read the procedure and I've already figured this one out. I'll post the correct way to convert 4AD to Test via this technique, as well as how to reconstitute the Test, once my Karma have increased to a point where I feel it's time to post. So get adding them Karma. Yes, I know this sounds infantile. Oh well.

  21. Originally posted by maggmaster
    Wow triple d rather cutting without an interpretation, Im assuming you are a chemist and i will discuss with you on those terms. I am not a chemist but I do have some interest in the subject and have done some self study. Just dont shoot down people who are trying to do something cool for everyone.
    Big props for crazypete. If it weren't for his totally bastardized interpretation of a procedure, I wouldn't have been able to figure this all out. He gave me just enough info to break the puzzle apart and put it back together properly. Thanks crazypete!!!

  22. Actually, I finally figured it out. Here is what happens:
    1. the reactants (4-AD and MnO2) are allowed to mix for 10 hours. The MnO2 crystals are then extracted with filter paper and they are washed with hot chloroform to remove any remaining test.
    2. The report then states that the chloroform is then evaporated to dryness. This was the part I was confused on. I believe water is formed in the reaction so the experimentors (is that a word?) evaporated the water out of the solution.
    3. The test was then crystallized using the acetone/hexane mixture.
    4. The report also states that a 2nd and third crop were extracted from the same solution giving a total of 90% conversion.
    Viola. All that and no karma

  23. Originally posted by rotarnomore
    Actually, I finally figured it out. Here is what happens:
    1. the reactants (4-AD and MnO2) are allowed to mix for 10 hours. The MnO2 crystals are then extracted with filter paper and they are washed with hot chloroform to remove any remaining test.
    2. The report then states that the chloroform is then evaporated to dryness. This was the part I was confused on. I believe water is formed in the reaction so the experimentors (is that a word?) evaporated the water out of the solution.
    3. The test was then crystallized using the acetone/hexane mixture.
    4. The report also states that a 2nd and third crop were extracted from the same solution giving a total of 90% conversion.
    Viola. All that and no karma
    You're getting closer but not quite. By the way Manganese Oxide is Mn3O4.

  24. a couple of things:

    1. pete is an idiot. his procedure was not bastardized, he copied the wrong one (see the first one in the paper). i could come up with many excuses (exams, etc.), but i ****ed up and should have paid more attention. that and i should have noticed that methanol would not work well to recrystalize as i have a background in the field. i guess that my ego got in the way and blinded me to the fact that it was wrong.

    2. manganese dioxide is used, says so in the paper, it is the first thing under the experimental section. also the reactions text i found the reference in had manganese dioxide listed.

    3. the ratios are 25 parts chloroform, 5 parts MnO2, and one part 4AD

    4. mixing is at room temp for 10 hours, one could extend to 2 days, but results would be similar.

    5. filter product and wash with hot chloroform.

    6. evaporate chloroform

    7. crystallize with acetone-hexane and filter and dry.

    this is what the correct part of the study says (no i didn't read the section pertaining to 4-cholestenone this time)

    the yeild is ~75% originally if your neat and ~90% after the third crop.

    other than the fact that i copied the wrong part of the paper (which was spot on), i made no mistakes. rotarnomore's synopsis is right and this is the correct procedure as outlined in the paper.

    in the intro to the paper it mentions using benzene, ethylene chloride or acetone as the solvent. does anyone have any comments about this.

    cheers, pete

  25. First off crazypete is right with the details listed. Secondly, Manganese oxide is not Mn3O4. Technically, Manganese Oxide is MnO. The experiment calls for managanese DIoxide which is MnO2. manganese has several oxidation states including 2,3, and 4. MnO2 leaves managese in the +4 oxidation state and it will decompose over time. This why I guess the people doing the experiment decided to make their own. They even state that they could not find a reliable commercial source so they freshly prepared their own and left it in a flask with a stopper on it.
    In regards to the solvent question. The paper says that the 4-AD is suspended, not dissolved in the chloroform. The Manganese dioxide was then removed by filtration and washed with hot chloroform. " The article states "The combined chloroform [the washings of the MnO2] is then evaporated for dryness." It then says that "Crystallization from acetone-hexane yielded [testosterone]....". Why would you need to crystallize an already crystallized (since the chloroform was evaporated) product? One thing I don't understand from the report is why the chloroform is evaporated and then crystalized from an acetone/hexane solution. Why would you go through 2 crystalization processes? Anyone know? One more note on the carrier solution. I personally would rather use acetone. It is much less toxic and you can pick a gallon of it up from Lowes for about $10.

  26. Originally posted by rotarnomore
    First off crazypete is right with the details listed. Secondly, Manganese oxide is not Mn3O4. Technically, Manganese Oxide is MnO. The experiment calls for managanese DIoxide which is MnO2. manganese has several oxidation states including 2,3, and 4. MnO2 leaves managese in the +4 oxidation state and it will decompose over time. This why I guess the people doing the experiment decided to make their own. They even state that they could not find a reliable commercial source so they freshly prepared their own and left it in a flask with a stopper on it.
    In regards to the solvent question. The paper says that the 4-AD is suspended, not dissolved in the chloroform. The Manganese dioxide was then removed by filtration and washed with hot chloroform. " The article states "The combined chloroform [the washings of the MnO2] is then evaporated for dryness." It then says that "Crystallization from acetone-hexane yielded [testosterone]....". Why would you need to crystallize an already crystallized (since the chloroform was evaporated) product? One thing I don't understand from the report is why the chloroform is evaporated and then crystalized from an acetone/hexane solution. Why would you go through 2 crystalization processes? Anyone know? One more note on the carrier solution. I personally would rather use acetone. It is much less toxic and you can pick a gallon of it up from Lowes for about $10.
    Sorry your right, Manganese Oxide is MnO, I was looking at Manganese Manganic Oxide Mn3O4. Either way, neither is soluble in chloroform but 4-AD and Test are soluble in chloroform. Technically, you could just evaporate the chloroform after filtering and you would be left with Test. If you were in a hurry you could mix an equal amount of methanol or methanol/acetone with the chloroform/Test solution. You could then recrystalize by adding/mixing your chloroform/alcohol/Test solution with an equivalent amount of distilled water (while mixing on a magnetic stirrer or getting real aggressive with a glass stirring rod) and the Test will then precipitate out and can be filtered off. The amount of chloroform used could be reduced or certainly much more 4-AD used in the same volume of chloroform. The manganese dioxide could be reduced as well but the reaction time would be slower then. MnO2 should be added in excess though.
    Last edited by DDD; 06-17-2003 at 02:25 AM.

  27. Originally posted by crazypete
    a couple of things:

    1. pete is an idiot. his procedure was not bastardized, he copied the wrong one (see the first one in the paper). i could come up with many excuses (exams, etc.), but i ****ed up and should have paid more attention. that and i should have noticed that methanol would not work well to recrystalize as i have a background in the field. i guess that my ego got in the way and blinded me to the fact that it was wrong.
    Hey, that's alright. I'm sure everyone would have gotten great results from the Manganese Oxide transdermal they could have made from your original posting. We all make mistakes.

  28. i think the second crystallization is done to make sure all the chloroform is removed from the solid, then you can filter, wash and dry. just my thoughts. i like the idea of using acetone to run the reaction.

    cheers, pete

  29. Originally posted by crazypete
    i think the second crystallization is done to make sure all the chloroform is removed from the solid, then you can filter, wash and dry. just my thoughts. i like the idea of using acetone to run the reaction.

    cheers, pete

    I thought of this myself because I have seen it done in other experiments as well. It sure did make the report confusing. One question for ya. How in the heck did you come across this article? Like I said in my original post I don't use steroids myself but after looking at all the views this post got, I'm thinking of investing some money in MnO2 production
  

  
 

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