4AD to test base

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    Originally posted by wojo
    um jweace u do realize cyber-rights is a .NET not a .com right? lol check ur email in ur sig bro
    lol, whoops! Thanks man, got it

  2. Hal
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    I've not seen credible reports that SARS is so robust as to survive the trip over in a box.
    Anyway, test susp has such problems associated with it that I can't imagine anyone wanting to shoot it...now, nandrolone susp...anyone have any comments on the usage of such a compound?
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    lots of us r already fans of action star chinese action stars kitchen ..now shhhhhh..lol
    •   
       

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    hal great sig..nandrolone sus would be awesome for 2 weekers..read matts sticky and the article i reposted for a great idea for ur nandrolone sus
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    Originally posted by wojo
    sars is non treatable..
    Well this isn't entirely true. It is treatable as long as it's caught early enough. Second, it's only killing old people, children, and people with preconditions. Anotherwords the weak. Healthy people don't have much to worry about, even if you do get it you CAN be treated for it. I live in Toronto where there is a current outbreak and you wouldn't know it walking down the street. You only have to worry really if you're visiting a hospital and they MAKE you wear a mask before entering. Right now almost all the people who have it are patients already in a hospital and the health care workers who are exposed to it daily, mainly before they started wearing protection. I'm with kitchen, I don't worry about it at all. I'm healthy and I just avoid hospitals, unless I'm sick .
  6. Hal
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    Thanks Wojo, I'll look for those posts.
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    Originally posted by Draven


    Well this isn't entirely true. It is treatable as long as it's caught early enough. Second, it's only killing old people, children, and people with preconditions. Anotherwords the weak. Healthy people don't have much to worry about, even if you do get it you CAN be treated for it. I live in Toronto where there is a current outbreak and you wouldn't know it walking down the street. You only have to worry really if you're visiting a hospital and they MAKE you wear a mask before entering. Right now almost all the people who have it are patients already in a hospital and the health care workers who are exposed to it daily, mainly before they started wearing protection. I'm with kitchen, I don't worry about it at all. I'm healthy and I just avoid hospitals, unless I'm sick .
    From what I've read, has a 4% mortality rate. Mostly elderly and chilren are ones at risk of death, someone correct me.
  8. Hal
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    Wojo, I'm missing these posts somehow...mind providing a link for me if you're not too busy?
    Thanks
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    Hey how would this work with the cyp version.. ie would it yield the test cyp version or would you lose the cyp ...
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    Good quest tommy, no idea hehe.
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    ok seems they removed the sticky i was refering to heres the article from anabolic extreme there is also a lengthy thread on there forum un the roid section on this topic here ya go mr. jordan err hal i mean..lol
    INITIAL THOUGHTS ON SHORT CYCLING
    by MuscleTrainee



    Background:
    I began BBing with a trainer from Germany. In educating me, he related to me that, in his time BBing there, European BBers were relatively without American influence. Common practice called for the use of short half-life ester injectables, the variety of which was much greater than exists today, combined with mild orals like Anavar and Winstrol and, sometimes, Dbol. Short cycles (2-4 weeks) were also the norm. Most interesting, use of test was very uncommon, and considered a horror. What was commonly used was Parabolan, what we, today, call Trenbolone. Eight week cycles were virtually unheard of, and the desire to pack on 20-40 pounds in such a short time was unthinkable. European BBers took a much more unhurried pace of growth. Young, competitive BBers were very much smaller than those found in the US, today, due to this orderly pace of growth. It was only the very rare, genetically unusual BBer who was big at a young age. Europeans simply had a different outlook and different standards.


    IAN: Yes, within 5 months I was using 200 lbs for like 14 reps.

    Early on, my trainer lamented the situation he found in the US: heavy dependence upon test, long halflife esters used in long cycles, gross overeating, poor estrogen suppression, acceptance of high body fat percentages, and excessive lean body mass development in short time spans. He was horrified at what he envisioned would be the long term consequences of widespread use of these practices. He was associated with IFBB pros, like Zhur, el Sonbaty, Schlierkamp, and Ruhl, while in Europe. He was well aware of the health complications associated with extreme muscularity. He kept reiterating "BBing is a sport for life".

    While still a natural, I began to examine how an entire philosophy of AAS use might be developed, based upon the European experience. By the time it was appropriate for me to begin AAS, years later, I already had a plan. Initially, I quietly used myself as a lab rat. The results became quite visible, and, before too long, questions followed. My trainer asked that we work together, to develop a new way for his athletes to grow. And here we are.....

    Characteristics of AAS:
    There are two clearly discernable characteristics of interest to BBers. Anabolic: muscle growth/hypertrophy. and Androgenic: strength, aggression, fat burning. Most AAS possess these two characteristics in varying ratios, and in various strengths. For example, Halotestin may be seen to produce a pure androgenic response, but no anabolic response. Deca, on the other hand, will produce anabolism with no significant androgenic response. Test produces roughly a 50 percent anabolic response, and 50 percent androgenic response. Then there is strength of response. Winstrol is a moderate, pure anabolic. Anavar is a moderate, pure androgen. Trenbolone is a very powerful androgen (80 percent of total response), much more powerful than the androgenic characteristics of test. Tren's anabolic characteristic (20 percent of total response), is weaker than that of test. And so on. I have built a complete table of response characteristics of all the AAS components we use.


    "In a stunning scoop that has shaken bodybuilding to its core, we have convinced six of the current Top 20 professional bodybuilders in the world to reveal every detail of their drug and steroid regimens… What does this mean for you? Every bodybuilder who's ever stepped inside a gym has wondered what it is that separates the guys who lift for years and years (and get big, but not that big)... and the monsters that win the big professional contests. It isn't genetics that accounts for the incredible difference in size... and it isn't training or nutrition…"

    Site injection and localized growth:
    Time and time again, we have seen localized growth response to site injected, esterless and short halflife AAS. I no longer accept that a positive response is anecdotal. It's just too commonplace, in my own work. Consequently, we no longer waste gear in glutes and quads. We identify and then site inject any and all lagging body parts, in a rotating injection program. And we have seen some startling responses. In nearly every case, we prefer tren and an esterless AAS, for the most powerful response. There must be weak-, or non-responders, but I have yet to find any. I owe much, in this particular area, to the work of Paul Borreson.


    The Oxford English dictionary defines the term somatotype as the "The physique of an individual as expressed numerically in terms of the extent to which it exhibits the characteristics of each of three extremes (the endomorph, mesomorph, and ectomorph)." So for example, a person exhibiting extreme mesomorphy might be assigned the numerical cocktail of 2-7-1. What does this mean?

    Cycle design:
    Cycles are assembled by, first, determining the end response characteristics desired, and assembling components whose AAS characteristics interlock together to produce that end response with a minimum of overlap, over the cycle time span desired. Consider this cycle: Nandrolone phenylpropionate (EOD), tren (EOD), Winstrol (ED), optional Anavar (ED). I've remarked, elsewhere, on the desirability of pairing tren with Winstrol. We require the use of a pure androgen for EVERY cycle, to insure ongoing muscle definition, density, and post cycle androgenicity, so Anavar is our choice for this cycle. Here, Tren is our primary androgen, and nandrolone our primary anabolic. All of these agents are selected for their lack of water retention. All are either short acting or esterless, so that meets our requirements for site injection. And, yes, we do site inject it all. We begin by frontloading the estered injectables, up to three days before cycle day zero, and add the orals and esterless injectables at cycle day minus one. On cycle day zero, the AAS is already active, with blood levels increasing. We end the injectables and orals, suitably in advance of the end of the cycle, so that, on cycle day 15, the AAS is non-inhibitory, and HTPA recovery begins immediately. Add on 14 days further system recovery, and then a cycle can begin anew. Seven weeks, total. Over a year, this might be accomplished seven times. When HCG, and an anti-e at suitable dosage, is added to the Clomid, the HTPA may be recovered in only 2 weeks. This shortens the next cycle availability point by one week.

    Yes, it's a lot of injections. And the Winstrol hurts.

    What might be expected, in the way of results? Bulking, we have seen as much as 10 pounds lbm. Average is five pounds. Over a year, that's 35 pounds. You say, "Hell, I can grow that much in 8 weeks". I say, let's see how many times a year you can accomplish that, and over how many years do you think you will continue to accomplish that? We have this steady, measured growing, going on and on. My guess is that this approach, using only a modest bulking diet, rather than the typical American pig-out bulking diet, can be accomplished for years and years. Due to short cycle length and rational diet design, there is very little fat gain. No pressing need to cut. No need to look like the typical big, smooth BBer, who only looks cut once a year. Our people are lean, defined, and feel healthy, all the time. They only spend two weeks cycling, while seven (or six), clean. And, since they get normalized quickly, they can train and grow natural, more quickly, because there is none of the weeks and weeks of getting that slow AAS out of their systems. The BBer doing the typical 8 week long acting ester cycle exists for weeks in a kind of limbo, where the blood levels are not high enough for anabolism, but are still inhibitory, and he must wait all that extra time. My people are off, longer than they are on. Their bodies free of drugs, all that time.



    We tend to avoid test. Not completely; just most of the time. What we found is that, anytime you use test, it magnifies the sides of whatever you use with it. Tren, used in rational dosages, is relatively free of sides, and causes fewer overall sides during cycles. We use tren, like the typical BBer uses test. With tren, you get much more response, with much lower dosages, with greater androgenic intensity. Someone once wrote that tren was "the gear of the gods". Indeed, the Europeans brought to BBing AAS, a very great gift. We do use test, but only for very specialized purposes.




    We only use one type of eight week bulk cycle. That for Boldenone, which now can only be obtained in a very long halflife ester. We are working with a supplier, and are patiently awaiting him to provide us with our first esterless Boldenone. Testing will begin immediately afterwards, to develop new dosage and protocols, following which, we expect to end our use of nandrolone phenylpropionate. Too many of our clients exhibit some degree of bloat from progesterone aromatization, emerging from the nandrolone. We consider any bloat, from any origin, entirely unacceptable, on health and esthetic grounds.

    Body fat gain on cycles:
    Ever notice how productive of muscle a cycle usually is, during the first four weeks, and how it slows down and body fat accumulates during the second four weeks? You end up eating more in the attempt to return things to the former rate. More body fat. Finally, the whole process slows down for good. What's going on? The common explanation is that you are getting bigger, so that requires more nutrition. We say no. We say the body realizes what is going on, it exhausts and compensates, and body metabolism and developmental processes simply will no longer support this process. But you continue to eat. And that food has got no place else to go, but be turned into fat, with unproductive lbm production.


    What's infinitely more interesting than Sheldon's view on somatotype permanency, is his assertion that somatotype and temperament are somehow intertwined. I'll use the example of a mesomorph's temperament because it leads to an amusing corollary involving Arnold Schwarzenegger.

    Our short cycle designs, whether for 2, 3, or 4 weeks features tren, as a foundation, which is a potent fat burner, due to powerful androgenicity, and will not aromatize to estrogen. And a diet, which is clean, and appropriately sized for rational lbm gain, while minimizing conversion to fat. Later, the body is clean of AAS, and primed for most sensitive and effective response, before the cycle begins. The conversion from nutrition to muscle takes place under optimum conditions, at low body fat levels. The AAS ramp-up is swift and full, and the cycle ends before the system can desensitize and cause spillover of nutrition to body fat.

    Estrogen pileup is another cause of body fat accumulation, during the typical 8 week, long halflife ester cycle. I suggest that readers visit the AE zine Issue 46, and download the blood concentration calculator from the excellent article on blood concentration of various halflife esters of AAS. Then, plug in your long halflife ester cycle components, and witness the startling blood level concentrations of what you are injecting, late in the cycle. Using the typical paltry anti-e dosages of the typical BBer, is it any wonder that, late in the cycle, estrogen levels build up out of control, and body fat follows?

    Estrogen and anti-e:
    It is an obsolete belief that estrogen is necessary in any cycle. Indeed, ANY amount of estrogen is BAD in any cycle! There is not one study which supports the notion. But the idea lived on in yet another obsolete notion; that water weight is good weight, in a cycle. That, water introduced into the muscle, causes increased lifts, and by lifting heavier, greater growth is obtained. The experts would purposely advise minimal amounts of anti-estrogen drugs, only to minimize the chance of gyno, but to insure lots of this, supposedly, desirable water weight. On the AE boards, I have witnessed these experts advising NO anti-e's, but only to have some Nolvadex at hand, to deal with gyno, should it appear. Not only do you end up with fake strength and fake muscle size, but, at the same time, the estrogen buildup causes high blood pressure, electrolyte imbalance, and a host of health issues. There is water buildup in the lower back to the extent that posts frequently document BBers in pain, cramps, and difficulty, attempting deads. The champions of this approach say "Oh just take some ibuprofen, and you will be just fine". Try asking your liver what it thinks about that approach. Following the cycle, the water disappears, along with the strength and size it fooled the user into believing was real muscle. This often causes depression, and chases the user into a course of creatine, to re-introduce that fake size and strength. The muscle character appears smooth, and the density is poor. When the BBer diets down, all this is lost, and the truth is seen. It's no wonder that certain other experts advise that BBers never come off AAS, so this scenario may never be exposed for what it is: a rollercoaster of reality versus water weight. I agree with them. It is not healthy to run back and forth between lost size and fullness caused by water weight. But it also is not a good thing to stay on AAS, all the time, either. This is a totally brain dead approach to AAS use. And the BBer who engages in it never attains the quality, defined physique he deserves. It's just a lot of smooth water weight and high body fat.

    And body fat. Everyone should know that the presence of excess estrogen causes fat deposition. The greater and the longer the exposure to elevated levels of estrogen, the greater the body fat accumulation. Endos, listen up; stay away from any situation which creates elevated estrogen levels. Everyone, listen up; it is OBSOLETE cycle technology to enable anything but minimal levels of estrogen, at any time. Estrogen is evil, and it is NOT your friend. Using anti-e's cannot reduce estrogen to levels below which the male body cannot function properly. It requires very little estrogen to function, and no anti-e removes it all.

    What to do? Begin, with an entirely different approach. Say that ANY water weight is BAD weight. That estrogen must be banished, to the fullest rational extent. And that the muscle you grow and see is, in fact, muscle, and not water. That the muscle produced will be dense and well defined. A quality physique. How, then does one obtain that increased strength, which the water provided, to enhance growth during the cycle? As stated, we first kill off the estrogen and bloat. Second, we emphasize the introduction of powerful androgens into the cycle structure. I am speaking, once again, of tren and anavar. Together, these components make you VERY strong. And with NO bloat or estrogen required. The concentrated androgenicity encourages intense, aggressive workouts, while also encouraging fat burning. It is very commonplace to observe body recompositions during such cycles. In other words, you get big and lose body fat, simultaneously. The androgenicity also produces significantly increased muscle density and definition. At cycle end, what you end up with, is the real deal. Solid muscle, growth, and increased definition. No need to rush to the nearest container of creatine to stem your losses. And that strength is yours, to keep. And no test.....

    Now, go back to that blood concentration calculator, and compare the blood concentrations of the typical 75 mg EOD of tren, to what you were subjecting yourself to, with that long halflife ester cycle. No stress caused by estrogen pileup, either. Now, you tell me which alternative is better.

    What do we use to suppress estrogen? Well, we formerly used Arimidex. Arimidex is now an antique for us. We use Femara. We prefer one 2.5 mg tab ED. Our clients are kept dry as a bone. We will begin to study Aromasin, in mid-September. Aromasin utilizes a different approach to Estrogen control, which promises to be even more powerful than Femara. But research indicates that IGF-1 production is not suppressed by Femara, but may, in fact, be enhanced by it. We do not see that with Aromasin. Time and experimentation will tell.

    Most importantly, we keep our people on anti-e, post cycle, during the HTPA recovery process, and later. This both speeds recovery of the HTPA, as well as minimizing fat buildup, while hormone levels fluctuate wildly.

    Androgenicity and quality:
    BBers commonly justify their long cycles by saying that they need the long cycle to enable "consolidation". They observe that this effect only occurs late in the cycle. Why is this? It's because the androgen level of the Sustanon test, typically used, takes that long to pile up and affect the muscularity of the BBer. But what about Trenbolone? Almost without fail, users commonly report density and hardening to appear within a few weeks. Why is this? Because the androgenic response of tren is so much more powerful than that of test. You can get this response to produce quality muscle at dosages of only 75 mg EOD, in less than a month. In a Sustanon test, it takes many weeks to accumulate an immense blood concentration, to achieve the same result. It is commonplace to observe tren users burning fat, while they cycle. Sust users never report this effect. Why? Once again, the androgenic response of tren is so much greater than that of test. Intense androgenicity induces fat burning. If Anavar is added, the androgenicity effect is intensified, still further.

    Ever hear of the term "muscle maturity"? It describes muscle which is dense and defined. The commonly accepted belief is that it takes years and years to acquire this muscle characteristic. But why? Because, using test, the exposure to the muscle hardening androgenicity only occurs for about two weeks in the typical long cycle. And that cycle can only be repeated a few times a year. In the tren/anavar-based short cycle, the exposure to muscle hardening androgenicity occurs for longer periods, and the cycle can be repeated many times a year. "Muscle maturity", and quality, appears with rapidity, and not with years and years. I see muscle quality in only one year of regular short cycling, which I never see in the typical long cycle BBer, unless it occurs for years. Which would you prefer?

    The issue of health:
    There are those who say the typical American method of cycling, using long acting ester cycles, for 8 weeks or more, and eating 7-8000 calories per day, for all that time, is no danger to health. To that, I say this: in the millions of years of human evolution, at no time, ever, has the male of our species been exposed to the barrage of hormonal, metabolic, and developmental pressure and manipulation, as occurs during the long acting ester eight week cycle. Do you really believe our bodies were engineered and evolved to deal with this attack, as well as the stress of being forced to add 20-40 pounds of lbm and body fat in this same time span, over and over, again? Don't be a fool. If you believe so, then you are whistling past the cemetery. And there are additional fools, who would have you believe that staying on this course, continuously, can do you no harm. There is currently an unprecedented, uncontrolled lab experiment, taking place all over the world, with thousands of men as lab rats. The long term outcome cannot be predicted by anyone, today. True, every single one of us will die, someday. My people and I have no intention of hastening the ar***** of that inevitable day, just to look big in a coffin, as we are laid to our eternal rest. What the hell is YOUR hurry? And, what if you don't die? What if you are forced to leave your beloved sport, and spend the rest of your days, living with hypertension and heart damage due to tachycardia? And kidney damage caused by the hypertension. And still other health issue possibilities. Is this any way to live? It's a personal value judgment and risk assessment process. Step back for a moment, and re-evaluate your position and priorities.

    The end game:
    One other matter, which few consider. Everyone has a genetically pre-programmed maximum of lbm, which their body will support, regardless of whether you reach it via AAS. The faster you approach it, the sooner your gains will decline, no matter how much juice you cycle, and how often you cycle it. You will end up spending money, juicing larger quantities of gear, and stressing your body, for diminishing returns. Finally, you are tapped out. All the slin, growth hormone, IGF-1, and whatever else you toss at it, will never get you past that limit. In a minority of individuals, they will attain immense lbm gains, over time. The rest of us, face the remainder of our BBing careers, re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. All we accomplish is staying right where we are, until we leave the sport in frustration.

    BBing is a sport for life. Why exhaust yourself and your body, in a hurry to arrive at the end of the journey, earlier than you need to? I'm 48 years old, and I look forward to growing and growing, for as long as I remain in the sport. We have a 65 year old client, who last competed 11 years ago. We did a few short cycles with him, dieted and prepped him, and he walked away with a second prize trophy, healthy and happy. Have any of you ever considered that you might still be able to lift and compete at that age? You better forget it, if all you can think of is slamming on endless pounds, today and tomorrow. Your time in BBing will either end in poor health, or the frustration of having reached your limit, and going no further.

    Summary:
    I have presented, above, only the most basic introduction to my philosophy and approach to short cycling, and offered only a simple example out of a program which I spent years developing. I have devised an entire series of special-purpose cycles, each of which embody most, if not all, of the above principles.

    The purpose of the short cycle is to employ moderate dosages of short halflife ester and esterless injectable and oral AAS, combined with moderate and healthy diet, to promote moderate stress anabolic growth, over time. This same process results in very high quality muscle production, which only increases with each cycle, and minimal health impact. It assumes a long term outlook. It is intended for the mature and rational BBer, who expects to remain in the sport for the rest of his life. If you truly love BBing, you never want to leave, and you want to keep your interest and grow, then consider how the short cycle might be what you need for your future in our beloved sport.

    Finally:
    I want to take the time to publicly thank my very special friends and clients, who put their faith in me, and assisted me by using my protocols. Through their invaluable feedback and experience, they enabled me to refine and perfect my overall program. Without them, this all would be nothing but theory. Some are former and present members of this fine board.

    And thank you, for taking the time to read all these words. I hope they help you in your journey, as BBers.
  12. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
    Hehe, bobo, i aint telling Did you blow your load when you saw the prices?
    Prices of what? I have no knowledge of any prices.




    But yes, I did....
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
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    should work for cypionate. the mechanism is based around the double bond stabilizing intermediates. however, i cannot comment on efficiency or completeness of reaction (although i suspect it will be similar). some concerns were raised about harmful substances being in the product. i believe that these are not an issue. as someone stated, you wash with methanol. there are no side reactions of any sort, this is why i chose this method instead of many other ones. it is also the cheapest. some of us have access to the chemicals at work, school or whereever. it is simple and efficient, what more can you ask for. no one who manufactures the stuff has a safer method or is able to remove impurities any better. why do you think most 4AD and 1-Test is 98 or 99%.

    some friends of mine have expressed interest, so i will obtain some powder and do tests to see how little MnO2 and chloroform we can get by with and still get a complete reaction. i would be wary of kits due to the fact that it is hard to figure out if you have test or 4AD in the product. especially if unactive MnO2 is used. it would be hard to detect scammers. luckily i have access to ultraviolet light equipment which can measure ultraviolet signiture and can tell the difference between 4AD, test and a mix of the two. results should not be expected soon, but i will post as soon as i have them, so no pm's please.
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    to do 10 grams of test you would need 100 grams of mn02 damn thats alot lol and 1000mls of chloroform..
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    Originally posted by Hal
    I've not seen credible reports that SARS is so robust as to survive the trip over in a box.
    Anyway, test susp has such problems associated with it that I can't imagine anyone wanting to shoot it...now, nandrolone susp...anyone have any comments on the usage of such a compound?
    SARS only survives out of your body for 3 hours. By the way, if you don't want to order from China, just don't buy prohormones form Kilosports anymore, for they are made in China.
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    Originally posted by neurotic


    SARS only survives out of your body for 3 hours. By the way, if you don't want to order from China, just don't buy prohormones form Kilosports anymore, for they are made in China.
    Every hormone outthere is manufactured in china isn't it?
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    Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
    Every hormone outthere is manufactured in china isn't it?
    Don't ask that question to PA
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    Does he just manufacture 1-test or others?
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    Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
    Does he just manufacture 1-test or others?
    I believe he is only manufacturing the burn free 1-test. Ironic given the fact the he was slamming the other supplement companies that were manufacturing 1-test as "irresponsible" when he was first marketing 1AD.
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    any update on this?

    BTW, PA mfgs 1-test, 4ad, and the nors. He is the patent holder for these, Molecular manufacturers 1,4.
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    So the chineese companies selling this are getting it from his manufacture?
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    Hey anybody tried this yet lol .. i have enough 4ad cyp to kill a horse lol
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    Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist
    So the chineese companies selling this are getting it from his manufacture?
    At this point, most chinese companies do not respect patents for drugs. So, they are making it on their own.
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    Chemist's comment


    "The site looks like it supplies the material commonly used in chemical lab procedures, and would be what you want. You may want to consider the powdered and granular forms. If mixed in properly, the powered material will react faster. Sometimes finely divided material is hard to mix in, clumping together. The granular may be easier to handle and provide
    a more controlled reaction."

    Just a quote to pass along from a chemist I know...
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    Good News


    Yes, our Manganese Dioxide is active.

    Best,



    Robert Tyler
    ScienceLab.com, Inc.
    281-354-6400
    rob@sciencelab.com
    www.sciencelab.com
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    Just curious, did anybody actually ever try to make test base from ad-ad and if so, how did it work out?

    p.s. learned alot about SARS and other things from this post.....
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    lol yeah i was wondering if anyone tried it as well .... i have tons of 4ad and 4adcyp .. would much rather have tons of test and test cyp lol
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    forgot to mention id try it but id have no way to test it to see if it turned into test..
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    Originally posted by crazypete
    JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY
    #75 (1953)
    page 5930
    sondheimer et al.

    METHOD:

    i am looking for a source of activated manganes dioxide so that the above does not need to be performed. once we get the manganes dioxide, all we have to do is mix the 4AD, MnO2 and chloroform in the ratios above, basically add the 4AD to chloroform on the magnetic stirrer and then add the MnO2 and leave it for 3 hours at room temp. add methanol to the solution and the test will crystalize and fall out of solution. filter and wash well with methanol. collect the filtrate and filter again on new filter paper and dry all the filter papers. if the filtrate still has crystals, filter with another paper. i would dry the first filter paper out well for a few days and weigh it. if its more than 80% yield, i wouldn't waste time trying to get the rest. if not, then take the filtrate and refilter to get rest of crystals. you kind of play it by ear. that's pretty much it.....oh yeah, don't forget to discard the powder properly as this is an experiment

    it is possible that much less MnO2 can be used. this will mean that the reaction will have to sit longer maybe a day or two, i don't really know. this will have to be found out. i want to try this in the lab where i can measure the ultraviolet spectrum to determine how long the complete reaction takes with different amounts of MnO2 and chloroform so as to minimize cost.

    why did i not do it step by step? well if you can't figure it out, then you probably shouldn't be doing it.
    Your misinterpretation of this method is obvious to a real chemist and is actually quite entertaining. Leave this type of work to those who actually understand how to read and follow a method.
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    Hey DDD does this mean the conversion wont work ... or you just need to use the large amounts like it says..
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    Wow triple d rather cutting without an interpretation, Im assuming you are a chemist and i will discuss with you on those terms. I am not a chemist but I do have some interest in the subject and have done some self study. Just dont shoot down people who are trying to do something cool for everyone.
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    This is my first post so here is some background about me. I DO NOT use steroids first and foremost. I do occasionally browse this section just for knowledge - plain and simple - and this article peaked my interest. I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemistry but I am certainly no expert in when it comes to biology. I have had organic chemistry and biochemistry in college so I do have somewhat of an understanding. I will agree with DDD that the inerpretation has been hacked up quite a bit but it does appear that he was on to something. I have read the article and unfortunately it is not very in depth and does not illustrate the chemical reactions. I used ChemID through the internet to obtain the chemical sturctures of testosterone and 4-androstene-3,17-diol. I compared these structures to an article from "Big Cat" in which he also has the two structures listed. Here is the problem, what big cat has listed is not the same structure as what is listed by ChemID. If the structure Big Cat has listed is correct, then this conversion will NOT take place. If the structure listed by ChemID is correct, then it will certainly take place as detailed in the article. The difference between ChemID and Big Cat is with the oxygen attached to the hexane ring (lower left in most drawings). big cat shows this as a double bond and ChemID shows it as an OH group. If ChemId is correct, the MnO2 will oxidise this OH group to a double bond forming Testosterone, MnO, and H2O. Now comes the second tricky part. Perhaps Big Cat and ChemID are both correct. I thought that perhaps what is sold in the bottle is labeled as 4-androstene-3,17-diol but it actually is just a variation of it. The 4AD may just be an "industry" labeling of something else (like what Big Cat has listed with his structure).
    Here are the websites I used to confirm the structures:
    http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh2.htm
    My question is - can anyone confirm what the chemical sturcture is of 4-androstene-3,17-diol (at least what is sold in the bottle).
    One more thing - please do not ask me, pm, email me, etc. on how to do this. I will not respond to any of them.
    Thanks,
    Chris
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    Interesting I dont know which the correct structure is because wherever I look it up it is one of those two, Chemo will know though, the last couple of lines of your thread are kinda weird dude why suggest something and then ask not to be asked about it?
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    There's nothing wrong with the conversion of 4-AD to Test. It's after that in the procedure he ****s up.
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    Originally posted by maggmaster
    the last couple of lines of your thread are kinda weird dude why suggest something and then ask not to be asked about it?

    I didn't state that very well. What I meant was please don't ask me to help somebody make the stuff. What I don't want to see is"hey dude, can you make me some of this stuff". I may be good in Chemistry, but I never did well in English Please ask away though.
    Chris
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    IF you go to this site it shows all the steroid structures:

    http://www.steraloids.com/
    click on view by group then 4-androsten
    then lcik on the name of the right one and it shows the compound..
    4-ANDROSTEN-3á, 17â-DIOL
    is it 3alpha 17 beta??? there are like 100 diff combinations..
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    Originally posted by tommy_69
    IF you go to this site it shows all the steroid structures:

    http://www.steraloids.com/
    click on view by group then 4-androsten
    then lcik on the name of the right one and it shows the compound..
    4-ANDROSTEN-3á, 17â-DIOL
    is it 3alpha 17 beta??? there are like 100 diff combinations..
    Extremely useful website. thanks. It appears that the difference between the alpha and beta is the orientaion of the OH molecules (wether the OH faces towards you or away from you looking stright on). Also, it appears that big cat has an incorrect listing of the chemical structure. I'm not sure which Testosterone is more effective in the human body (the alpha or beta version). I believe that the CORRECT procedure outlined in the experiment will work. Just wanted to point out something else as well. The article states that commercial MnO2 performed poorly so the experimenters decidied to make their own. I would guess that in 1953 (when the article was written) there was not a reliable source of pure MnO2. I have never heard of "active" or "inactive" MnO2. Not saying it doesn't exist but it just doesn't make sense to me. MnO2 can be used as a mild oxidizer (like in the experiment) and sometimes (rarely?) as a reducing agent. It might be possible that the MnO2 decomposed to MnO making it inactive? from the commercial sources. If the bottle says MnO2, it should work. In regards to the amounts of reagents used, the chloroform was used purely as a carrier. Neither the 4-AD nor the MnO2 wer dissolved in the suspended solution. It appears that the MnO2 is the excess reagent and I wouldn't mess with the quantity. Like I said, MnO2 is only a mild oxidizer. The article then goes on to state that the two products (now testosterone and MnO) were filtered and washed with chloroform. The Testosterone was extracted using an acetone-hexane mixture which dissolved the test but left the MnO in the filter paper. The acetone-hexane mixture was then exaporated and the testosterone was left. The Test was identified by melting point and infrared. Hope this helps clear up some confusion.
    Chris
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    ok sounds alot harder than doing syno ... i guess ill stick with that lol
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    Wanted to post a correction from my last post. The report is extremely confusing and I reread it again. Apperently the 4-AD and MnO2 are suspended in the chloroform and mixed for 10 hours. The report then states that the MnO2 is filtered and washed with chloroform and the chloroform is evaporated away. I'm not sure if the test remains in the MnO2 crystals or the chloroform. I would assume the filtered crystals contain both the Test and the MnO2 since neither should dissolve in chloroform. What doesn't make sense is the report then goes on to state that the test was crystallized by using the acetone-hexane mixture. This doesn't make sense because I would think the test WOULD dissolve in an acetone/hexane mixture but the MnO2 would not. I'm also assuming the chloroform was evaporated away to make sure that no test remained in solution so a final amount of total conversion could be calculated.
    I also wanted to add a word of extreme caution. Chloroform is a known carcinogen (cancer causing). It is also heavier than air and the vapors will concentrate near the floor. It can also make you pass out.
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    Sounds like something anyone could brew up at home!

    Originally posted by rotarnomore
    Wanted to post a correction from my last post. The report is extremely confusing and I reread it again. Apperently the 4-AD and MnO2 are suspended in the chloroform and mixed for 10 hours. The report then states that the MnO2 is filtered and washed with chloroform and the chloroform is evaporated away. I'm not sure if the test remains in the MnO2 crystals or the chloroform. I would assume the filtered crystals contain both the Test and the MnO2 since neither should dissolve in chloroform. What doesn't make sense is the report then goes on to state that the test was crystallized by using the acetone-hexane mixture. This doesn't make sense because I would think the test WOULD dissolve in an acetone/hexane mixture but the MnO2 would not. I'm also assuming the chloroform was evaporated away to make sure that no test remained in solution so a final amount of total conversion could be calculated.
    I also wanted to add a word of extreme caution. Chloroform is a known carcinogen (cancer causing). It is also heavier than air and the vapors will concentrate near the floor. It can also make you pass out.
  

  
 

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