- 05-28-2006, 11:57 PM
1-8 test prop 125mgs EOD (if sides) 65 mgs ed
1-7 tren ace 75mgs EOD 40 mgs ed
4-8 winny 50mgs ED (maybe! experimental purposes)
1-8 Letro .25 EOD - ED
1-10 HCG 500iu 2x per week
9-12 Nolva 40, 40, 20, 20
post cycle therapy...??? what else?
b5 3mgs ED?
Dostinex @ .5mg/EOD (necessary, or will the letro take care of this?)
Also, someone told me that Nolva SHOULD NOT be taken while taking tren, and may actaully increase gyno...and letro SHOULD BE taken when on tren...
Really Appreciate the help guys...I've been searching around, but I just wanted to get advice on the complete and final package...
- 05-29-2006, 12:33 AM
Only take the Letro to combat any symptoms that arise. Stop the HCG at week 8. I hate Winny personally, you don't need it.
Nolva at 60,40,20,20 IMO.
You may think about adding Powerfull, Activate, DHEA and fenugreek to your PCT. Powerfull at the very least.
Should be a kickin little cycle. Good luck.Recent log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/213350-lean-efx-refined.html
- 05-30-2006, 12:17 AM
i'm having trouble finding Letro...
all I have found is letro (femera) tabs at 2.5mgs...could I take one of these EOD or E3rdD ?
05-30-2006, 12:55 AM
Check out the board sponsors.... What you seek, you will find..Originally Posted by FitModel
05-30-2006, 10:13 AM
05-30-2006, 12:10 PM
05-30-2006, 12:11 PM
Hey fit, I gotta question for you.Originally Posted by FitModel
Last edited by idunk42; 05-30-2006 at 12:32 PM.
06-02-2006, 02:26 AM
so now i'm hearing I can take NOLVA with tren and Letro and it will not hinder my gains or cause any increase in gyno...it will only help reduce gyno...
so i'm thinking...
NOLVA 20mgs ed-eod
Letro 1.25mgs eod
how does that sound?
06-02-2006, 11:09 AM
I would waits Nolva unless you see some sides.I ran these without letro or nolva...maybe I got luckyOriginally Posted by FitModel
06-02-2006, 12:20 PM
As I said before. Do not take nolva while using tren. Nolva increases PgR in breast tissue . Nolva will actually stimulate progesterone recptors. Trens metabolites will have more to bind to.. If you want to increase your chances of getting gyno than use the nolva( this is correct info that nobody can dispute ) .. As for letro .25 mg ED or EOD will suffice while use tren.. Good luck on your cycle !!Originally Posted by FitModel
06-02-2006, 12:36 PM
Also I would not worry about less gains using an AI while running tren. Growing a nice set of man boobs out weighs the the chance of have some reduced gains while using letro. Just keep your training and diet in check and you will gain just fine...Originally Posted by FitModel
06-02-2006, 02:26 PM
thoughts on this then merc...
"No it doesn't. That is brotelligence at it's finest. How To Fight Progestin Induced Gyno?
Also, through my research I garnered that an AI, at least Letro while on cycle will not hinder your gains.
Letrozole is highly specific in inhibiting aromatase activity. Impairment of adrenal steroidogenesis has not been observed. No clinically relevant changes in the plasma levels of cortisol, aldosterone, 11-deoxycortisol, 17-hydroxy-progesterone, ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormone) or in plasma renin activity were found in postmenopausal patients treated with 0.1 to 5 mg letrozole daily. The ACTH stimulation test performed after 6 and 12 weeks of treatment with daily doses of 0.1 to 5 mg letrozole did not indicate any attenuation of aldosterone or cortisol production. Thus, glucocorticoid or mineralocorticoid supplementation is not required.Letrozole had no effect on plasma androgen concentrations (androstenedione and testosterone" "
06-02-2006, 02:29 PM
06-02-2006, 02:42 PM
That was me, and I was talking about Tamox lessening the effect of Letro or any other AI which it does not.Originally Posted by FitModel
06-02-2006, 03:20 PM
This has nothing to really do with nolva incresing PgR and increaing risk of tren gyno( this is a fact that nolva does this ). One more time do not use nolva with tren ( anyone who says different is wrong) But since you asked what I think about what you posted I think it is incorrect . I have been reading many medical journals that say diffrent. Heres one that is pretty new that says nolva does lessen the effects of third genaration AI's .. Here it is.. See the parts I made in capital..Originally Posted by FitModel
This only applies to 3rd generation AI's, Letro, Arimidex and L-Dex.
Interactions of antioestrogens and aromatase inhibitors.
Schmid P, Possinger K
Department of Oncology and Hematology, Charite Campus Mitte, Humboldt University Berlin, Germany.
Aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens have shown substantial activity in primary and advanced breast cancer. Since they exhibit different modes of action, attempts have been made to combine them or to use them sequentially in order to potentially increase their efficacy. In preclinical studies, combined, sequential or alternating treatments with aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens have failed to provide higher antitumoural activity. THERE ARE RELEVANT PHARMACOKINETIC INTERACTIONS RESULTING IN DECREASED PLASMA CONCERTAIONS OF THIRD GENERATION AROMATASE INHIBITORS WHEN COMBINED WITH TAMOXIFEN. Several randomised clinical trials comparing single agent and combined treatment with tamoxifen and aminoglutethimide failed to show any benefit for the combination. Early results of the adjuvant ATAC trial indicate that single agent anastrozole is superior to tamoxifen or the combination of both. Several trials are ongoing which might help to further define the role of sequential or combined treatment with aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens. However, to date, looking at the current evidence, combined treatment with aromatase inhibitors and antioestrogens does not appear to provide additional benefit compared to single agent treatment
06-02-2006, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by mercedesdd
Can I ask what Journal that was from? Because I believe I posted three studies, and found about five more that said that they had absolutely no pharmacokinetic reaction.
06-02-2006, 03:46 PM
Hey.. I did not mean to start anything with you by posting this . I have read what you posted any many studies of what you posted where kinda old one was from like 2001 . I have resent studies from the AMA and pubmed that state it does make letro less effective.. I dont know why this is really even begin brought up all I was stating that it is a bad idea to use nolva while using tren due to the nasty tren metoblites and how nolva increases PgR..Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
06-02-2006, 04:42 PM
No, no, not starting anything..I just wanted to know.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
06-02-2006, 04:57 PM
Effect of exemestane on tamoxifen pharmacokinetics in postmenopausal women treated for breast cancer.
Hutson PR, Love RR, Havighurst TC, Rogers E, Cleary JF.
School of Pharmacy, University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wisconsin 53705-2222, USA. email@example.com
PURPOSE: Rodent models of human breast cancer suggest that the combination of the steroidal aromatase inhibitor exemestane with tamoxifen may have additive activity. Clinical trials combining tamoxifen with letrozole or anastrazole have shown minor pharmacokinetic drug interactions. We did an open-label crossover clinical trial of the effect of exemestane on tamoxifen pharmacokinetics. DESIGN: Thirty-two postmenopausal women who were clinically disease-free following primary treatments for breast cancer receiving tamoxifen for at least 3 months were studied. Blood was collected for pharmacokinetic analysis after at least 4 months of receiving 20 mg tamoxifen daily. Subjects then began 8 weeks of oral exemestane (25 mg daily), followed by another set of blood samples. RESULTS: There were no serious toxicities noted when the two drugs were combined. There was no significant effect of exemestane on the area under the plasma concentration versus time curve (AUC) of tamoxifen at steady state before [3.04 mg h/L; 90% confidence interval (90% CI), 2.71-3.44] and during exemestane treatment (3.05 mg h/L; 90% CI, 2.72-3.41). There were no significant changes in the formation of primary tamoxifen metabolites. Oral clearance of exemestane averaged 602 L/h based on an average plasma exemestane AUC of 41.5 microg h/L (90% CI, 36.7-62.6). Plasma concentrations of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate decreased when exemestane was begun; estradiol concentrations consistently decreased below the limit of quantitation. CONCLUSIONS: There is no pharmacokinetic interaction between tamoxifen and exemestane. No modification in the standard regimen of either drug seems to be indicated if they are used in combination. The combination of the two drugs was well tolerated during the 8-week evaluation period.
2005. Not with letro, but Aromasin.
I have honestly only seen two studies saying they had any reaction, yours, and one I saw before.
06-02-2006, 05:16 PM
Right on man!! I have several studies that show nolva does make third generation AI's( letro) less effective but there is no reason to really go back and forth on this because there are some conflicting studies . Nothing is set in stone on this.. I see alot of people saying it is ok to use nolva while using tren on here . I have been trying to help with fitmodels cycle now and in the past and alot of people are telling him to use nolva with tren and I think he is starting to get confused ( which is the last thing I want for him ya know). I can say that it is pretty much set in stone that nolva rasies PgR in breast tissue and will stimulate progesterone receptors meaning that trens metabolites will have more receptors to bind to and greatly increase chances of getting gyno when using tren( this is fact). There are lots of people on here saying over and over to use nolva with tren and give absurd reasons why to do so. I dont want to see fitmodel end up with boobs after doing his cycle.. Can we at least agree on not using nolva while running tren so we can clear this up for him !!! LOL?????Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
06-02-2006, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by mercedesdd
lol, I appreciate the help...
06-02-2006, 06:46 PM
Yeah, I have read that Tamox can upregulate Prog. receptors, so I do agree with you on that.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
06-02-2006, 10:24 PM
Hey Mulletsoldier , I was very busy eariler and didnt really have time to respond to the study you posted on nolva and aromasin.. The argument between studies is with letro and nolva. Remember studies show that nolva only makes type-2 AI's less efficive ( letro , a-dex ) not type -1 AI's like aromasin.. With a type -1 AI it does not need to be present to contuine doing its job on the aromatse enzyme, unlike a type -2 which is partially eliminated by nolva and unfortunately needs to be present to continue its aromatase inhibition. Just wanted to make sure you knew aromasin was a type -1 AI and the difference in studies me and you are discussing are between type 2 AI's and nolva.. It is an interesting topic as there is so many studies with different conclusions..Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
06-02-2006, 10:29 PM
Hope all this helps Fitmodel !! When are you starting your cycle ???
06-02-2006, 10:32 PM
probably next week...
i'm workin on my PCT right now...
4 weeks of
Activate (which i think caused some acne and sex drive issues last time)
Retain (i've heard it was good)
Rebound XT (used with Lean ex and worked well but I think this really hurt my sex drive)...
06-03-2006, 12:35 AM
Do not know much about OTC stuff .. Maybe look into also including powerfull and tongkat also( but again I dunno much about OTC stuff )maybe someone else can help on this!!.. I like to follow a different PCT protocol... Also try not to limit pct to only four weeks if you feel you have not recovered you can go longer..Originally Posted by FitModel
06-03-2006, 12:51 AM
Bump mullet!! I have been reading studies and it is weird how different the final conclusion is on nolva and letro used in conjuction...Originally Posted by mercedesdd
06-03-2006, 12:56 AM
I know, tell me about it. After you posted those studies I decided to re-examine my view, but it's not getting any easier. I'll read one refutable study citing a pharmacokinetic reaction, and then two that says no, and vice versa. And I totally had a brain fart on that Aromasin study. My bad.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
06-03-2006, 03:20 PM
LOL buddy !!!!!Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
06-05-2006, 06:35 PM
what's a good dose for b-5 and b-6
I'm thinking 3mgs...maybe up to 5mgs if acne persists
06-05-2006, 06:52 PM
No to high on b-6 .. Maybe 200-300 mg ED !!!
06-05-2006, 06:56 PM
No , No I am wrong on that .. I just read a study saying anything over 100 mg Ed can be toxic !! Sorry for the wrong input above!!
More than 200mg/ED has been known to damage to the nervous system.
The Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine has established a tolerable intake level (UL) for vitamin B6 of 100 mg per day for all adults.
alot of people do use 200mg ED while using tren but just wanted to let you know it can damage the nervous system!! Pros and cons I guess LOL!!!!
06-05-2006, 07:33 PM
I would take Letro at 2.5 ever other day.
06-05-2006, 07:34 PM
Why so high of a letro dose??Originally Posted by asap nutrition
06-05-2006, 07:41 PM
Yeah that letro dose is high unless gyno symptoms arise.
06-05-2006, 08:19 PM
oh great...I have 500mgs b6 pills...I guess I'll have to go get some lower dose one's...
Letro i'm taking .25 ED...if sides occures I'll increase to .5 ED...and possibly add nolva...
I just did my first quad injection 1.25 + .75 = 2cc...NO pain at all, i'm already somewhat worred this gear might be fake...I got it from an UG Lab, looks legit, but NO Pain at all, I mean I don't even feel it...
could it be I just did a real clean injection...or could it be this stuff is fake...the tren was slighly more yellow then the prop...both seemed pretty thin
06-05-2006, 08:21 PM
Haha, you will know by tomorrow.
06-05-2006, 08:23 PM
06-05-2006, 09:41 PM
Some people dont get any pain .. It depends on the manufacture or how it was home brewed.. It might hurt tomorrow like BPmartyr said.
06-06-2006, 01:03 AM
yeah okay cool, I feel it already starting to hurt tonight...
I'm just a little paranoid...
my main concern here is gyno...so my current plan is...letro .25 ED and 100mgs of B-6...
Nolva, only if after I up the letro for a few days (if I have gyno symptoms that is) it doesn't seem to be doing the trick...
is there anything else that I can include to be sure and not get gyno...?
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