finasteride: effects on overall body composition

  1. Registered User
    Alpine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    732
    Answers
    0

    finasteride: effects on overall body composition


    We all know that DHT is responsible for aggravating MPB. And by now many of us have come to realize DHT isn’t so bad and serves a purpose besides just causing hair loss.

    What I’m concerned with in this post is how long-term finasteride use effects overall body composition. That is, lean muscle vs body fat and also how it effects lean muscle gains.

    While DHT is a much stronger androgen than Testosterone it still has less (musch less) of an effect on skeletal muscle than Testosterone does. From what I have read DHT is significantly weaker than Test in terms of promoting lean muscle. As long as your Test is normal/high you should have no issues gaining and keeping lean muscle.

    Still, we have many anecdotal reports of people claiming finasteride hindered gains or degraded overall quality of body composition. I have seen reports of people saying finasteride should not be used when trying to get very lean because it makes it harder to reduce body fat. Some even go as far as to say that it promotes body fat. It’s true that DHT is somewhat of a natural ant-estrogen within the body. It does this through a few numerous pathways and this why some may experience gyno on finasteride. Many critics of finasteride say it shouldn’t be taken at all. They say the incidence of sides and permanaent sexual effects is much more common that Merck likes to admit. Swale, a notable medical voice with special experience, has been very vocal in an effort to dissuade people from using it.

    Is there any solid science or evidence that shows DHT reduction leads to increased body fat? I’m not aware of any studies in regard to how it effects body composition. I don’t like the idea of reducing DHT but it does help with MPB. I took finasteride for roughly 2 years with no major side effects to speak of. However, there are MANY sides attributed to its use. They seem to increase as one gets older. Perhaps the sexual side effects are much more noticeable as reach your 30’s. I consider myself lucky but I have noticed a gradual increase in hair loss since I stopped taking it. I seemed to have slightly easier time depositing abdominal fat during my time on finasteride. During Tren use I also noticed very mild gyno for the first time. I have read that the effects of low DHT (and the loss of its estrogen antagonism) paired with progesterone can often be trouble. We all know that estrogen + progesterone can lead to bad things. This was the only time I ever experienced any type of gyno activity. This leads me to think if using finasteride with Tren or Superdrol you should be particularly careful.

    I’m willing to go back on finasteride for a few more years (maybe until Mid 30’s) if I become confident that it doesn’t have a negative impact on body composition. I stopped taking it due to recent efforts to become very lean. What are your opinions on finasteride and body composition? Do you think it promotes fat gain or simply slows lean out? I would like to hear from some of you who have taken finasteride long-term and its perceived effects on your composition and any sides you may have had.

    Thanks in advance.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche

  2. Board Supporter
    wastedwhiteboy2's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Age
    40
    Posts
    2,988
    Answers
    0


    I noticed duta decreased my sex drive. as far as body comp. I cant say, it was right after bulking so I was puffy anyway.
  3. Registered User
    Alpine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    732
    Answers
    0


    Personal experience is great. I'm looking for that.

    I guess Im also looking for any physiological/hormonal reason why it would tend to make you "fatter" or perhaps make you deposit abdominal fat easier. Perhaps some of the more well read members can chime in on this aspect. I think its clear to some it may soften you a little in terms of muscle hardness.

    I dont think its impossible to get lean or stay lean on it. I'm just wondering if there are any underlying reasons why it could be detrimental to a lean muscular physique.

    I was thinking along the lines of: more estrogen could only mean more fat. Much of the feedback Ive gotten heads toward that direction. A lot of us tend to think this way. DHT and Estrogen are demonized. But Im not sure its that simple. Everything is there for a reason. The delicate balance of the system is no evolutionary accident. Im sure many of you are familiar with this study.

    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3592-9.

    Estrogen supplementation reduces whole body leucine and carbohydrate oxidation and increases lipid oxidation in men during endurance exercise.

    Hamadeh MJ, Devries MC, Tarnopolsky MA.

    Department of Pediatrics and Medicine, McMaster University Medical Center, 1200 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8N 3Z5.

    Healthy active men exhibit higher rates of carbohydrate (CHO) and leucine oxidation and lower rates of lipid oxidation compared with their female counterparts both at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. We postulated that this reduced dependence on amino acids as a fuel source in women was due to the female sex hormone estrogen. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over design, we investigated the effect of supplementing 12 recreationally active men with estrogen on whole body substrate oxidation and leucine kinetics at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. Subjects cycled for 90 min at an intensity of 65% maximum O(2) consumption after 8 d of either estrogen supplementation (2 mg 17beta-estradiol/d) or placebo (polycose). After a 2-wk washout period, they repeated the test after 8 d of the alternate treatment. On the test day, after a primed continuous infusion of l-[(13)C]leucine, O(2) consumption, CO(2) production, steady-state breath (13)CO(2), and plasma alpha-[(13)C]ketoisocaproate enrichments were measured at rest and at 60, 75, and 90 min during exercise in the postabsorptive state. Exercise increased energy expenditure more than 5-fold, CHO oxidation more than 6-fold, lipid oxidation more than 4-fold, and leucine oxidation 2.2-fold (all P < 0.0001), whereas it decreased the ratio of lipid to CHO oxidation by 50-70% (P = 0.003) compared with values at rest. Estrogen supplementation decreased respiratory exchange ratio during exercise (P = 0.03). Estrogen supplementation significantly decreased CHO oxidation by 5-16% (P = 0.04) and leucine oxidation by 16% (P = 0.01), whereas it significantly increased lipid oxidation by 22-44% (P = 0.024) at rest and during exercise. We conclude that estrogen influences fuel source selection at rest and during endurance exercise in recreationally active men, characterized by a reduced dependence on amino acids and CHO and an increased reliance on lipids as a fuel source.
    I must say, this topic isnt getting much attention from anyone. I guess if it doesnt deal with the crop of recent Prohormones (more like legal but ancient rejected orals) then nobody cares. I cant say I dont like reading/posting about them too, but damn. It seems like thats 85% of the anabolic section posts now. Maybe its just not an exciting topic. All I know is a LOT of people take this drug and I dont think we know the half of what reducing DHT can do to our overall system. Merck sure as hell wasnt looking out for anyone besides their own bottom line.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
    •   
       

  4. Banned
    same_old's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,526
    Answers
    0


    how lean are we talking about getting, while on finasteride?

    this may sound odd but the truth is - if you take an androgenic but more hairline-friendly steroid along with test and finasteride, you will do just fine, and get nice and cut if your diet is in order.

    if it matters at all - i just dropped 25lbs in 3 weeks on test prop and DUTasteride (the strong stuff) and lost 2" from my waist...sitting at about 12% BF @ 255lbs (i'm tall)...i've been on DUT for months, but that was on-cycle. i dont use it when i'm off.
  5. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    custom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Age
    35
    Posts
    3,971
    Answers
    0


    I took finasteride for a few months about 5 years ago and thought it made me very soft and puffy looking, so I dropped it.

    I am contemplating starting Dutasteride, but this still scares me. I may stack it with Armidex and see how it goes.
  6. Board Supporter
    wastedwhiteboy2's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Age
    40
    Posts
    2,988
    Answers
    0


    one pos. I read about duta is its supposed to block conversion to dht which increased the amount of test. I forget the %. maybe this thread is not getting much attention because there is a small percentage of people that have to worry about their hair and few that worry about their prostate. that study is interesting but it seems the more estrogen you have the more fat gain you get. could be the bulking factor.
  7. Registered User
    Alpine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    732
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2
    one pos. I read about duta is its supposed to block conversion to dht which increased the amount of test. I forget the %. maybe this thread is not getting much attention because there is a small percentage of people that have to worry about their hair and few that worry about their prostate. that study is interesting but it seems the more estrogen you have the more fat gain you get. could be the bulking factor.
    Both can slightly raise test but this is also true for estrogen. This is why some experience gyno from its use. Dutasteride is much more effective and i REALLY dont want to bring DHT levels that low in any case.

    Stay on target! Gold Leader!


    sigh, I dont think I'm going to have much luck on this subject. All I can count on is anecdotal reports from various forums and I always feel those are tainted. They go both ways - placebo is a strong thing.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
  8. Registered User
    Alpine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    732
    Answers
    0


    Well, I havent had much luck. I've posted this thread on numerous boards.

    I will probably be going back on this garbage at least for a few more years. That is, unless I find some convincing evidence that it could lead to increased body fat or more estrogenic like fat deposition. Even something pointing in that direction would help make the decision easier. I have noticed a lot of loss in the 5 months that I've stopped taking it. I had 2 solid years of use with no major sides (luckily). It slowed my hairloss and only after stopping did I notice by how much. I'm going to fight the good fight for a few more years while its still not too noticeable, I'm only 23. After that I'm throwing in the towel and going down to to a 1 gaurd and not worrying about DHT or heavy androgens anymore. I wont be one of those guys doing the comb over or styling micro thin wifts of hair in an effort to hide it. Once its at a certain point you might as well concede defeat. It seems lame and trivial to those of you who are lucky enough not to have to deal with it. **** the genetic lottery. Im sure in 5-10 they will have isolated and eliminated it. Least I dont have a big ass head....
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
  9. Snuggle Clubô mascot
    bpmartyr's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    41
    Posts
    4,448
    Answers
    0


    Tell ya what bro. Once I started shaving my head....


    I'll never go back to hair. And I have a full head of it. Life is much easier without it.

    Ubi does complain that he misses running his fingers through it while holding Beelz's *#!@$* with his other hand while Glen feeds him grapes in the shower. But I digress... fight well my friend, but when the fight is over, all is not lost.
    Recent log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/213350-lean-efx-refined.html
  10. Registered User
    Alpine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    732
    Answers
    0


    I just dont like the idea of tinkering with DHT. I feel like we know so little in terms of how it effects other issues besides just the prostate and hair.
    That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche
  11. Registered User
    neverstop's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  190 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,241
    Answers
    0


    just to clarify something for the noobs

    dut is the same thing as finasteride right?
  12. Board Supporter
    wastedwhiteboy2's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Age
    40
    Posts
    2,988
    Answers
    0


    dut is similar but it blocks dht by two different means. fina only blocks one.
  13. Board Supporter
    RipdnTxs2's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Age
    48
    Posts
    577
    Answers
    0


    I have been taking fina for about 5 years or so, I have always had a hard time gaining weight(ecto), I have never noticed any real bloating or puffy look, from using it. I hate to see someone your age already fighting this condition, I,m not at the comb over stage yet, but it still sucks. I would say it slows the fallout, but not too much regrowth.. JMO
  14. Registered User
    bikeboatski's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  165 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    2
    Answers
    0


    I'm an older guy been on either finasteride or dutasteride for about 12 years for BOTH male pattern baldness and prostatic hypertrophy. I'm more of a strength and endurance athlete, not into bulking up. (XC ski racing and Mtn bike racing) I noticed that on smaller doses (finasteride 1-2mg daily or dutasteride .5mg every 3 or 4 days) I didn't seem to notice effects on fat deposition or endurance but over the past two years I have upped the dose (because prostate problem is a bit worse...waking up at night to pee etc) and have noticed more abdominal fat and slight endurance/strength loss in spite of even more exercise. (The higher or more frequent dose does seem to slow the MPB a bit more effectively though)
    I too wonder about deleterous effect of lack of DHT on muscle. Manufacturer says DHT mainly present in skin, hair and prostate, but if its present here it must also be present in muscle and other cells. Unfortunately no studies in medical literature that I could find, just anecdotal reports like mine and others posted. I don't think deliterous effects of these alpha blockers are huge. And I think they're probably more subtle and slow to develop which is why its going to take some time to answer question definitively. Personaly, I think I'm going to go back to a lower dose and if my prostate flares back up I'll start on other prostate meds that work a different way (ie flomax) or else have surgery.
    Last edited by bikeboatski; 02-26-2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason: clarity
  15. Board Supporter
    wastedwhiteboy2's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Age
    40
    Posts
    2,988
    Answers
    0


    DHT is the hormone that makes you strong. It does not build much muscle. It keeps estrogen down. If you are older maybe a low dose of anti estrogen might help. I'd look into effects of Winny. It's a derivitive of DHT. If you are having problems I'd stay on the Duta or fina. I take it in small doses for my hair. FYI Bikeboatski there are other hair threads that discuss fina and duta on here. Seems like these are all old threads though.
  16. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    We all know that DHT is responsible for aggravating MPB. And by now many of us have come to realize DHT isnít so bad and serves a purpose besides just causing hair loss.

    What Iím concerned with in this post is how long-term finasteride use effects overall body composition. That is, lean muscle vs body fat and also how it effects lean muscle gains.

    While DHT is a much stronger androgen than Testosterone it still has less (musch less) of an effect on skeletal muscle than Testosterone does. From what I have read DHT is significantly weaker than Test in terms of promoting lean muscle. As long as your Test is normal/high you should have no issues gaining and keeping lean muscle.

    Still, we have many anecdotal reports of people claiming finasteride hindered gains or degraded overall quality of body composition. I have seen reports of people saying finasteride should not be used when trying to get very lean because it makes it harder to reduce body fat. Some even go as far as to say that it promotes body fat. Itís true that DHT is somewhat of a natural ant-estrogen within the body. It does this through a few numerous pathways and this why some may experience gyno on finasteride. Many critics of finasteride say it shouldnít be taken at all. They say the incidence of sides and permanaent sexual effects is much more common that Merck likes to admit. Swale, a notable medical voice with special experience, has been very vocal in an effort to dissuade people from using it.

    Is there any solid science or evidence that shows DHT reduction leads to increased body fat? Iím not aware of any studies in regard to how it effects body composition. I donít like the idea of reducing DHT but it does help with MPB. I took finasteride for roughly 2 years with no major side effects to speak of. However, there are MANY sides attributed to its use. They seem to increase as one gets older. Perhaps the sexual side effects are much more noticeable as reach your 30ís. I consider myself lucky but I have noticed a gradual increase in hair loss since I stopped taking it. I seemed to have slightly easier time depositing abdominal fat during my time on finasteride. During Tren use I also noticed very mild gyno for the first time. I have read that the effects of low DHT (and the loss of its estrogen antagonism) paired with progesterone can often be trouble. We all know that estrogen + progesterone can lead to bad things. This was the only time I ever experienced any type of gyno activity. This leads me to think if using finasteride with Tren or Superdrol you should be particularly careful.

    Iím willing to go back on finasteride for a few more years (maybe until Mid 30ís) if I become confident that it doesnít have a negative impact on body composition. I stopped taking it due to recent efforts to become very lean. What are your opinions on finasteride and body composition? Do you think it promotes fat gain or simply slows lean out? I would like to hear from some of you who have taken finasteride long-term and its perceived effects on your composition and any sides you may have had.

    Thanks in advance.
    i take 2.5mg 2-3x per week to help increase potency of NPP

    And it seems as thoguh FINISTERIDE/Dutasteride may increase the potency of the 19 nors like Trenbolone and Nandrolone in target tissues (Roberts,S. 2009)

    no problems thus far,

    libido has been great. i take some nolva, adex and finisteride, 2-3x a week of each,

    libido is nice
  17. Banned
    Stiffy's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  216 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    56
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    I just dont like the idea of tinkering with DHT. I feel like we know so little in terms of how it effects other issues besides just the prostate and hair.
    You are a smart dude. The only time I ever had gyno issues was when I mixed finasteride with superdrol. I've done many cycles that probably should have given me gyno. But this combo is the only one that ever did. I strongly suggest that any one using this combination keep a strong anti-estrogen ready. You will need it.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-08-2010, 10:32 AM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-30-2006, 02:01 PM
  3. effects of sust on the body?
    By stage1 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-21-2004, 01:55 PM
  4. Finasteride effects while on M-1-T
    By sabitu in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-05-2004, 01:02 AM
  5. Interesting On Body Composition
    By YellowJacket in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-07-2002, 01:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in