So confused... 4AD Question help!

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    Question So confused... 4AD Question help!


    Ok ok, i know i have asked a lot about cycles. I am pretty well educated but you can never know enough...

    Now i heard 4AD is 113% androgenic and 92% anabolic compared to testosterone. would that mean 2100mg a day orally at 5% conversion is about the same as 100mg of prop a day?!

    another person told me that would convert only to about 16mg of test in the body, but how the hell would that help one gain weight then...thats only 112mg of prop a week, not even baseline!

    Now i am 6'5, 225lbs, 9%

    would 1000mg 4AD oral, 400mg transdermal, 25mgx4 suublingual a day for six weeks give me results??

    Thanks!!

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    You scare me a little, but I'll try to answer some of your questions anyway. I think you know too little to start taking this.

    4AD is diol, not dione so oral conversion is about 15%. Transdermal can be as high as 50% if you do just right. 4AD is a prohormone to testosterone so it is 100% androgenic and 100% anabolic compared to testosterone. The amounts you listed here are high enough to maybe give you gyno problems.

    I have done the 400mg transdermal a day without problems, but it was very wet at that point. You have 40 lbs on me so you can probably go higher, but each person has a different point they will have trouble and start growing breasts. You should know the warning signs and be prepared to deal with it immediately.

    1 mg prop is worth much more than 1 mg testosterone because it has a longer life. I don't know the conversion number.

    I like I said you worry me and I think you need to learn more before starting. Hopefully you have planned a PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf
    You scare me a little, but I'll try to answer some of your questions anyway. I think you know too little to start taking this.

    4AD is diol, not dione so oral conversion is about 15%. Transdermal can be as high as 50% if you do just right. 4AD is a prohormone to testosterone so it is 100% androgenic and 100% anabolic compared to testosterone. The amounts you listed here are high enough to maybe give you gyno problems.

    I have done the 400mg transdermal a day without problems, but it was very wet at that point. You have 40 lbs on me so you can probably go higher, but each person has a different point they will have trouble and start growing breasts. You should know the warning signs and be prepared to deal with it immediately.

    1 mg prop is worth much more than 1 mg testosterone because it has a longer life. I don't know the conversion number.

    I like I said you worry me and I think you need to learn more before starting. Hopefully you have planned a PCT.
    the wolf is mostly correct.

    fritzer i can only assume you are afraid to pin, which if true, you need to quit this sh1t now and either man up or get out of the game.

    now, i will address the actual questions, not for someone afraid to pin, but for someone (like me) who wants to try a short megaburst cycle without pinning friggin 5mL every day and needs to look at alternate administration methods for fast-acting test.

    1) transdermal test/4-ad is considerably wetter and bloatier than any other form of test. i imagine this is due to the aromatase enzymes having their highest concentration in your adipose tissue, which the transdermal has to pass through. also, because the transdermal is unestered, it will act like test suspension, which is fast, wet and strong. nonetheless, TD test is good stuff, and you can just use an AI to keep the bloat down. TD test/4-ad lasts about 6 hours for me. some believed it stuck around longer.

    2) 4-ad: most of the above factors are the same for 4-ad oral, except it wont be quite as bloaty as TD test. 4-ad oral only lasts about 4 hours for me.

    3) sublingual cyclodextrin 4-ad is actually pretty fun pre-workout. it hits QUICK and gives you a noticeable boost in the gym, but fades after maybe an hour. i dont think it's good for anything else.

    4) all these methods provide you with extra test, but it is virtually impossible to ensure that you are getting the same amount every day. FYI.

    i dont know how long you expect to run this cycle, but between the orals and the transdermal applications, it's gonna get old QUICK having to think about your drugs every 2-3 hours.

    IMPORTANT: when you use unestered test, you are very susceptible to hormone fluctuations, as the test is very high and then, not long after, very low. expect acne and aggression. and if you think you will remedy that by dosing both the oral and the dermal 2-3 times/day, there will still be significant fluctuations as the amount you've administers spikes with application and decreases at an unknown rate.

    (obviously i will be doing this stuff in conjunction with injectables, to keep my baseline high at all times)

    as another possibility, you can homebrew andriol really cheaply and dose that if you like. it's very frequesnt, just like all the other stuff.

    ditto for stinging nettle (activate) - fast acting, spikes free test, but requires super frequent dosing.
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    hell i dont mind taking it every hour!

    Wolf PCT is

    Week 1: Nolva 30mg, Clomid 100mg, Rebound XT 25mg, DHEA 300mg
    Week 2: Nolva 20mg, Clomid 100mg, Rebound XT 50mg, DHEA 200mg
    Week 3: Nolva 10mg, Clomid 50mg, Rebound XT 50mg, DHEA 200mg
    Week 4: Nolva 10mg, Clomid 50mg, Rebound XT 75mg, Dhea 100mg
    Week 5: Nolva 5mg, Rebound XT 25mg.

    Add tribulus.

    Cycle is 6 weeker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer
    hell i dont mind taking it every hour!

    Wolf PCT is

    Week 1: Nolva 30mg, Clomid 100mg, Rebound XT 25mg, DHEA 300mg
    Week 2: Nolva 20mg, Clomid 100mg, Rebound XT 50mg, DHEA 200mg
    Week 3: Nolva 10mg, Clomid 50mg, Rebound XT 50mg, DHEA 200mg
    Week 4: Nolva 10mg, Clomid 50mg, Rebound XT 75mg, Dhea 100mg
    Week 5: Nolva 5mg, Rebound XT 25mg.

    Add tribulus.

    Cycle is 6 weeker.
    I would run the nolva 40/20/20/10/10,and add some fenugreek in there.
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    oh i will run rebound XT or arimidex with the 4ad to decrease water bloat.

    "man up or get out of the game"... dude...

    i am allergic to alcohol, i drink it and i cant breath, i inject it and i die. So unless you wanna send me some test without BA in it made by a reputable lab that has no chance of being contaminated dont make judgements on something i am trying to make an educated decision on. But i appreciate your input on the other stuff

    Now i dont think there are many people going into a 4AD cycle that have covered as many bases as i have already, 2 months out of the cycle.

    I have a frickin amazing PCT, i have nolva/clomid/arimidex on hand in case of gyno
    I have also never seen anyone who has accomplished what i have naturally in a year and a half, from 6'5 175lbs to 230lbs at 8% squatting 455, bench 315, freaking bicep curl straight bar 175.

    One thing i hate about the board is that any question by anyone who doesnt have a couple juice cycles (regardless of how thy did them, without pct, with no education, etc) is considered a dumb question. Half the guys on juice on this board will NEVER get as I have naturally. So if you wanna "talk about the game" trust me, i know about the game. I think not missing ONE MEAL in the last year and a half every two hours, never missing a training day, telling people at work to hold on while i eat and have shakes, looking like an ass eating in class,
    and stuffing tissue up my nose when i squat so i dont spray BLOOD everywhere puts me somewhere in the game!

    I am just looking for advice on how to run the 4AD for a guy my size in order to make considerable results and not waste my time. If you think the 4AD is a waste of time, just say so. Replies from guys with arms bigger than 18 inches and who actually know what they are talking about please. Then again all the advice on these boards is purely anecdotal with no scientific evidence behind them.

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer
    oh i will run rebound XT or arimidex with the 4ad to decrease water bloat.

    "man up or get out of the game"... dude...

    i am allergic to alcohol, i drink it and i cant breath, i inject it and i die. So unless you wanna send me some test without BA in it made by a reputable lab that has no chance of being contaminated dont make judgements on something i am trying to make an educated decision on. But i appreciate your input on the other stuff

    Now i dont think there are many people going into a 4AD cycle that have covered as many bases as i have already, 2 months out of the cycle.

    I have a frickin amazing PCT, i have nolva/clomid/arimidex on hand in case of gyno

    I am just looking for advice on how to run the 4AD for a guy my size in order to make considerable results and not waste my time. If you think the 4AD is a waste of time, just say so.

    Thanks
    I myself am very fond of trans 4-ad,in your other thread you said you had some 1-ad,Trans 1-test is better but this could work.Those two could make a nice cycle.alot of people are in favor of this cycle ,search the board and you should find some logs on it.In fact trans 4-ad can be the base of most of your cycles ,alot of people use it like that because it aids libido while on.
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    Ya ripped, i totally agree. I have read so many cycles on it, but most by kids 172lbs that gain like 20lbs. Most of the bigger guys are onto test, which unfortunatly until i am a doc and order my own stuff and homebrew without BA, etc i cant do it. Im looking at trying to do a cycle of 4AD that equates to gain at around 500mg prop a week, which may be impossible...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer
    oh i will run rebound XT or arimidex with the 4ad to decrease water bloat.

    "man up or get out of the game"... dude...

    i am allergic to alcohol, i drink it and i cant breath, i inject it and i die. So unless you wanna send me some test without BA in it made by a reputable lab that has no chance of being contaminated dont make judgements on something i am trying to make an educated decision on. But i appreciate your input on the other stuff

    Now i dont think there are many people going into a 4AD cycle that have covered as many bases as i have already, 2 months out of the cycle.

    I have a frickin amazing PCT, i have nolva/clomid/arimidex on hand in case of gyno

    I am just looking for advice on how to run the 4AD for a guy my size in order to make considerable results and not waste my time. If you think the 4AD is a waste of time, just say so.

    Thanks
    brother, i covered every single thing a regular person needs to know about megadosing 4-ad/TNE (provided that person already has a working knowledge of the risks and effects of test.)

    "frickin amazing PCT"??? LOL. an amazing PCT would be IGF, MGF, PGF-2a, activate, clomid/nolva, fenugreek, trib, avena sativa, LJ100, and 18 teenage vietnamese whores with blood tests. THAT's an amazing PCT.

    yours is ordinary.

    didnt know benzyl alcohol would have that effect on a a person allergic to alcohol, but it makes sense.

    you're only 21 huh?

    why the focus on test, and not just tbol or m-trn or something simple?

    i'm 6'6", and i was 225# for several years in college at about 9% BF naturally, too (i have the pics to prove it!)....i tell you it doesnt last though brother! enjoy the metabolism while you got it!

    (and for anyone else's reference - 230lb isnt very heavy @ our height...and there's alot of frame to fill!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old
    brother, i covered every single thing a regular person needs to know about megadosing 4-ad/TNE (provided that person already has a working knowledge of the risks and effects of test.)

    "frickin amazing PCT"??? LOL. an amazing PCT would be IGF, MGF, PGF-2a, activate, clomid/nolva, fenugreek, trib, avena sativa, LJ100, and 18 teenage vietnamese whores with blood tests. THAT's an amazing PCT.

    yours is ordinary.

    didnt know benzyl alcohol would have that effect on a a person allergic to alcohol, but it makes sense.

    you're only 21 huh?

    why the focus on test, and not just tbol or m-trn or something simple?

    i'm 6'6", and i was 225# for several years in college at about 9% BF naturally, too (i have the pics to prove it!)....i tell you it doesnt last though brother! enjoy the metabolism while you got it!

    (and for anyone else's reference - 230lb isnt very heavy @ our height...and there's alot of frame to fill!)
    Same old calm down bro no need to flame the guy just wants to be sure with what he dose,thats what this board is for to help people out not criticize.And he says why he will not do trn or test in his other posts read them before you go nuts.
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    HAHA! i love it!

    "brother" (are you hulk hogan?) If so stop reading, i am bowing down.

    Just kidding. I think its heavy, i wouldnt want to go over 240 at my height ever. But thats personal preference. Your 225 6'6 is impressive, i like it! Good job, its hard to gain weight being so tall hey?

    Unless your one of those Ahole who is like 6'8 400lbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer
    HAHA! i love it!

    Just kidding. I think its heavy, i wouldnt want to go over 240 at my height ever. But thats personal preference. Your 225 6'6 is impressive, i like it! Good job, its hard to gain weight being so tall hey?
    bro i am 280lbs now. @ 225lb i was small and weak (okay not really, but compared to now, yes)

    ripped218 - i am not flaming, i'm not even being negative - i'm joking for most of it.

    does anyone know if you can keep test from crashing w/o BA?

    fritzer - ever consider test suspension? no alcohol in that, and easy to pin if it's micronized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by same_old
    bro i am 280lbs now. @ 225lb i was small and weak (okay not really, but compared to now, yes)

    ripped218 - i am not flaming, i'm not even being negative - i'm joking for most of it.

    does anyone know if you can keep test from crashing w/o BA?

    fritzer - ever consider test suspension? no alcohol in that, and easy to pin if it's micronized.
    Yeah thats a good one ,suspension,i did not think of that.
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    ya i was kidding too. suspension, yeah but dont you have to pin all the time because of its short halflife??

    after my tren experience, man i am scared to get gear from places though. cant even trust BD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer
    ya i was kidding too. suspension, yeah but dont you have to pin all the time because of its short halflife??

    after my tren experience, man i am scared to get gear from places though. cant even trust BD.
    2-3 times a day.

    some guys swear by suspension, but that's too many sticks for me. i'll opt for TD and oral and a longer estered injectable.

    "can't trust BD"??? dude, you are allergic to alcohol. all mass produced oils have alcohol in them. it's not BD's fault.
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    Actually your PCT is too strong. Here is example from from Dr D himself. Notice that clomid is only run for a short time and he doesn't double up by using nolva and clomid at the same time.

    "Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for PCT with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

    wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 75mg/d
    wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 50mg/d
    wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 25mg/d
    wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
    wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
    wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

    Notice I phase the Clomid out and introduce the Nolva later. This helps prevent sides from developing from accumulation of estrogenic metabolites from the Clomid and also acts to minimize the use of Nolva, which is more liver toxic than Clomid. Rebound is very unlikely and estrogen biosynthesis will likely be significantly lowered for 3+ wks even after the end of this PCT. I do long ones, as you can see.
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    Now that understand more. You can run the 4AD amounts you list above but you should probably run from 25 to 50 mg RXT with it. The benefit of running testosterone only is the ability to be on it safely on for very long periods of time. Also you don't put on muscles as fast so tendons and joints get chance to adapt. I never had a problem with low periods of Testosterone when doing transdermal 4AD, but you do you could balance with your oral dosing if you notice. Your dosing is very high and it may even be above what your body can convert to testosterone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf
    Your dosing is very high and it may even be above what your body can convert to testosterone.
    i never even thought of that. what enzyme is responsible for the conversion? it's not esterase....anybody have any studies on reaching a conversion threshold?
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    Talking


    So critique this MADLY.

    Weeks 1-2: 400mg Transdermal 4AD, 600mg Oral 4Ad, Sublingual 3x a day. Either 1ad at 300mg a day, or SD at 10mg a day. Which?? Rebound XT 25/50mg, 10mg Nolva. Arimidex on hand

    Weeks 3-6 if it is going good: 400mg Transdermal, 1000mg oral, sulingual 3x a day. 1AD still if thats your choices...? rebound 25/50mg, 10mg nolva.Arimidex on hand.

    Note: a little scared of 1AD for 6 weeks, i hear a lot of people say it is hairloss in a bottle. Could i use dbol?? or i could run oral turinabol alongside the 4ad for 4-5 weeks...

    PCT: The taper method mentioned, but no LX as i cant get that here unfortunatly.

    Sound like a good cycle??
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    i am allergic to alcohol, i drink it and i cant breath, i inject it and i die. So unless you wanna send me some test without BA in it made by a reputable lab that has no chance of being contaminated dont make judgements on something i am trying to make an educated decision on. But i appreciate your input on the other stuff
    Most transdermal formulas have Isopropyl alcohol in them...dont know if that would affect your condition.

    BV
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    hey...thanks man. No it is ok on my skin. it is only in my body, maybe i completly lack alcohol dehydrogenase. i really hope i goes away.
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    Just be careful, I think the IPA is actually there to act as a solvent and to quickly evaporate to help speed aborption. I dont know if penetration enhancers would end up pulling some through the skin.

    Probably not...I imagine straight IPA in your bloodstream would make you pretty sick,and it never happened to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fritzer
    So critique this MADLY.

    Weeks 1-2: 400mg Transdermal 4AD, 600mg Oral 4Ad, Sublingual 3x a day. Either 1ad at 300mg a day, or SD at 10mg a day. Which?? Rebound XT 25/50mg, 10mg Nolva. Arimidex on hand

    Weeks 3-6 if it is going good: 400mg Transdermal, 1000mg oral, sulingual 3x a day. 1AD still if thats your choices...? rebound 25/50mg, 10mg nolva.Arimidex on hand.

    Note: a little scared of 1AD for 6 weeks, i hear a lot of people say it is hairloss in a bottle. Could i use dbol?? or i could run oral turinabol alongside the 4ad for 4-5 weeks...

    PCT: The taper method mentioned, but no LX as i cant get that here unfortunatly.

    Sound like a good cycle??
    I actually went back and read most of your postings over the last month. So I am going answer some questions not in this thread. You are worried that Superdrol will lower your HDL severely. It lowers your HDL because it is estrogen suppressive. It is roughly as estrogen suppressive as it is testosterone suppressive which why it leaves testosterone close to normal. So the ways to keep HDL suppression to a minimum is taking less and adding estrogen (usually by adding testosterone(4ad)). You are doing both in this cycle above. You will probably still want add some supps for HDL support. People have made good gains on only 10 mg.

    You are worried about hair loss from 1-AD. It does raise DHT, but so does 4AD. You will get much bigger gains from 1-AD than the 4AD so minimizing the 4AD is way minimize DHT rather than minimizing 1-AD. 4AD is testosterone suppressive and 1-AD is very testosterone suppressive. One way to minimize the testosterone suppression is to take them early in the day so by bed time they have cleared your body. 1-AD is basically cleared in 4 hours (5 is safer) though the DHT created from may hang around longer.

    Oral 4AD is close the same with Estrogen and DHT hanging around longer. Transdermal 4AD is 8 hours longer to clear (12 hours total). The sixth week on 1-AD is not going do you much gains.
    So here is my recommended cycle for you which not that different than what you wrote:

    Weeks 1 through 3

    Morning: 100mg oral 4AD, 100 mg transdermal (raising to 200 mg as need) 4AD, 200mg 1-AD

    Lunch: 200mg 1-AD and if you feel tired then 100mg oral 4AD

    Dinner: 10 mg Superdrol

    Add 4AD if you feel tired or for evening workouts.

    Weeks 4 and 5
    Morning: 100mg oral 4AD, 200 mg transdermal 4AD (less if you don‘t think you need it), 200mg 1-AD

    Lunch: 200mg 1-AD and if you feel tired then 100mg oral 4AD

    Dinner: 200 mg transdermal 4AD (less if you don‘t think you need it), 200mg 1-AD

    Bedtime: 200mg 1-AD

    In weeks 4 and 5 you had better be drinking water like fish or it will burn when you pea! You need to get your protein timing right. You need slow release protein at night like Casein, cottage cheese, etc. Whey protein release curves are good match with 1-AD release curves. The estrogen provided in weeks 4 and 5 from 4AD will help recover HDL. Add supplements of choice while on Superdrol for protection. Weeks 4 and 5 are a little rough on hair, but I have not had trouble. Use only as much 4AD as need to minimize hair problems.

    Maybe a little less agressive weeks 4 and 5 would be better for you.

    Weeks 4 and 5
    Morning: 100mg oral 4AD, 200 mg transdermal 4AD (less if you don‘t think you need it), 200mg 1-AD

    Lunch: 200mg 1-AD and if you feel tired then 100mg oral 4AD

    Dinner: 200 mg oral 4AD (less if you don‘t think you need it), 200mg 1-AD

    Bedtime: Deleted
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    Awesome, thanks!! that is very informative.

    I've never had hair problems but i dont want them to start...

    I definitly think i will do that!! Do you think sublingual 4AD is ok for if i feel tired??
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    Definitely
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    kk...any one have sublingual experience...

    what if u dosed it like 10 times a day...

    nasal spray, under tongue, over and over....every 3 hours or so
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    k got it. i could do that cycle or do pheraplex
    10/20/20/30

    mabye easier, for first time what do you think?
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    That works too. It is good cycle and you don't have to think about it. Currently Phera-plex is my favorite because I feel calm on it and basically very little suppression. I run flat 20 mg. By the way, ramping is to minimize suppresion in the beginning and deal with supression in the end. I don't think I would run 5 weeks again, only 4. Gains dropped in half the last week and I felt run down which I didn't in the first 4 weeks. You only need a mild PCT since there very little suppression.
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    what was your pheraplex cycle and results??

    any supporting sups?
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    I actualy take a lot of supps all the time so it is harder answer than seems. I recommend you look at logs for what other people are taking. Here is some of what I took you can look at: 600mg milk thisle extract, TwinLab flax/fish oil combo 2 ed, Syntrax guggulbolic extreme (helpful for weight loss,acne and LDL)3 to 6 ED.

    I also ran 50 mg of RXT all the way through, but I don't recommend that. I just want once to come off a cycle with bigger balls than I started with. Just once!

    It worked, but I probably lost some gains and may of worsened the HDL to LDL ratio.

    I always on R-ALA, but you might look at it.

    I took 10mg Phereraplex in the morning and 10 mg at night. At my age gains come harder, but it may be close to what you will see since I was coming off a vacation so i was getting a little muscle memory help. I put on about 3 lbs of muscle a week for first 4 weeks and about half that for the last week. I'm down a couple pounds which I think is loss of bloat and estrogen suppression. Weights are still at all time highes and moving up. I'm 2.5 weeks into PCT.
  

  
 

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