Question: what's with all these oral cycles?!

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  1. Question: what's with all these oral cycles?!


    I fully anticipate my rep to go into the toilet for this, but I think this needs to be said.

    I find it really disturbing to be honest. Thread after thread, all I see these days are folks talking about cycles of multiple oral steroids.

    To make matters worse I never see anyone warning them of the health issues inherent in these dangerous cycles. I'm tempted to post in these threads but there are so many and I really don't have the time or patience to go thread by thread.


    Here are some issues I think folks here need to think long and hard on:

    1) Legal steroids are legal because they were never marketted as pharmaceuticals. There's a reason they were never sold as drugs. In some cases, it is efficacy; the compound is too weak. In others, and I should say MOST cases, it is too dangerous.

    2) These compounds are untested. They haven't been out long enough for us to know the sides or longterm effects. Heck many aren't out long enough for us to know the effects after a couple cycles!

    3) Some compounds have been out for some time and .... surprise, they are dangerous. Superdrol messes your HDL cholesterol as badly as M1T for example. For many it doesn't recover for months. For some it doesn't recover PERIOD.


    Then there's the simple statements in AAS use that are repeated for good reason: "Don't do oral only cycles" and "Don't stack orals." The second is most easily explained. Simply put, all orals stress your liver, and stacking them only compounds this effect. Most legals seem to mess with your lipids and/or HDL, and stacking them can only mean horrible things.

    As for oral only cycles, there are several reasons. First being that they are short. Short cycles means you are constantly going from superhigh hormone levels to rock bottom back and forth. The initial 4 weeks of a cycle have fairly negative health consequences becuase of hormone fluctuations. PCT has negative health consequences as well for the same reason. I see a lot of folks here whose bodies are essentially in a constant hormonal flux.

    Why is no one ever chiming in to tell them what they are doing is ####ing themselves? Worse yet, why are so many doing this?



    The reasoning people use tends to have to do with legality. However, many times folks doing these cycles tend to think they aren't "going to the dark side" or are taking something pretty safe compared to illegal AAS. They couldn't be more wrong. The way I see it, the ONLY reason to be taking these legal oral AAS is because you absolutely positively have no access to illegal ones.

    You know what I have to say about that? I say, if you have issues with illegal AAS, then you shouldn't use ANY AAS. Cycles should be based on injectables and should be tailored to achieve a stable (albeit high) hormone level for a decent length of time in order to ensure not just quality gains, but to moderate health risks better.

    Some of the legal orals have their purpose in the grand scheme of AAS. Superdrol is a great replacement for Dianabol or Anadrol for those who dislike estrogen for example. Given its effect on HDL though I would treat it safet-wise on close to Anadrol, and less safe than Dianabol.

    M5AA, when it was legal, was a nice alternative to Halotestin. Not as strong a boost in strength, but not nearly as dangerous.



    Nonetheless, the point is, I don't think legality is a valid excuse for doing an oral only cycle. I don't think there is any valid excuse for an oral only cycle.

    There was a time I took oral cycles. I admit I subconciously did not think of them as being true AAS, and for some reason didn't think of them as being as dangerous. However I have since learned better. I'm sorry for this rant, but I just was hoping I could perhaps impart some of this warning to others here so they don't have to mess themselves up with a million oral cycles before realising their mistake.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    I fully anticipate my rep to go into the toilet for this, but I think this needs to be said.

    I find it really disturbing to be honest. Thread after thread, all I see these days are folks talking about cycles of multiple oral steroids.

    To make matters worse I never see anyone warning them of the health issues inherent in these dangerous cycles. I'm tempted to post in these threads but there are so many and I really don't have the time or patience to go thread by thread.


    Here are some issues I think folks here need to think long and hard on:

    1) Legal steroids are legal because they were never marketted as pharmaceuticals. There's a reason they were never sold as drugs. In some cases, it is efficacy; the compound is too weak. In others, and I should say MOST cases, it is too dangerous.

    2) These compounds are untested. They haven't been out long enough for us to know the sides or longterm effects. Heck many aren't out long enough for us to know the effects after a couple cycles!

    3) Some compounds have been out for some time and .... surprise, they are dangerous. Superdrol messes your HDL cholesterol as badly as M1T for example. For many it doesn't recover for months. For some it doesn't recover PERIOD.


    Then there's the simple statements in AAS use that are repeated for good reason: "Don't do oral only cycles" and "Don't stack orals." The second is most easily explained. Simply put, all orals stress your liver, and stacking them only compounds this effect. Most legals seem to mess with your lipids and/or HDL, and stacking them can only mean horrible things.

    As for oral only cycles, there are several reasons. First being that they are short. Short cycles means you are constantly going from superhigh hormone levels to rock bottom back and forth. The initial 4 weeks of a cycle have fairly negative health consequences becuase of hormone fluctuations. PCT has negative health consequences as well for the same reason. I see a lot of folks here whose bodies are essentially in a constant hormonal flux.

    Why is no one ever chiming in to tell them what they are doing is ####ing themselves? Worse yet, why are so many doing this?



    The reasoning people use tends to have to do with legality. However, many times folks doing these cycles tend to think they aren't "going to the dark side" or are taking something pretty safe compared to illegal AAS. They couldn't be more wrong. The way I see it, the ONLY reason to be taking these legal oral AAS is because you absolutely positively have no access to illegal ones.

    You know what I have to say about that? I say, if you have issues with illegal AAS, then you shouldn't use ANY AAS. Cycles should be based on injectables and should be tailored to achieve a stable (albeit high) hormone level for a decent length of time in order to ensure not just quality gains, but to moderate health risks better.

    Some of the legal orals have their purpose in the grand scheme of AAS. Superdrol is a great replacement for Dianabol or Anadrol for those who dislike estrogen for example. Given its effect on HDL though I would treat it safet-wise on close to Anadrol, and less safe than Dianabol.

    M5AA, when it was legal, was a nice alternative to Halotestin. Not as strong a boost in strength, but not nearly as dangerous.



    Nonetheless, the point is, I don't think legality is a valid excuse for doing an oral only cycle. I don't think there is any valid excuse for an oral only cycle.

    There was a time I took oral cycles. I admit I subconciously did not think of them as being true AAS, and for some reason didn't think of them as being as dangerous. However I have since learned better. I'm sorry for this rant, but I just was hoping I could perhaps impart some of this warning to others here so they don't have to mess themselves up with a million oral cycles before realising their mistake.
    I agree 100%
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  3. Good posting man...

    I also don't understand people doing everything but the kitchen sink. Like the dosing of 4 frackin' orals!!!!!

    I won't say I wouldn't do orals. I plan to finally step away from being all natural and use part of the 3 grams of SD powder I have in a couple of months.

    I just think the grouping of multiple orals and lack of Chol/BP/liver/prostate supps and lack of blood work to ensure proper recovery has become a thing of the past.
    Last edited by JonesersRX7; 04-28-2006 at 03:56 PM.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by JonesersRX7
    Good posting man...

    I also don't understand people doing everything but the kitchen sink. Like the dosing of 4 frackin' orals!!!!!

    I won't say I wouldn't do orals. I plan to finally step away from being all natural and use part of the 3 grams of SD powder I have in a couple of months.

    I just think the grouping of multiple orals and lack of Chol/BP supps and lack of blood work to ensure proper recovery has become a thing of the past.
    For some reason I think when u said 4 orals u were refering to my earlier post....I have all my supps for my Chol/BP on check dude...I am just asking questions cuz the people on this board know their shiet and can pass the knowledge on to those of us who havent been in the game as long

  5. Quote Originally Posted by oswizzle
    For some reason I think when u said 4 orals u were refering to my earlier post....I have all my supps for my Chol/BP on check dude...I am just asking questions cuz the people on this board know their shiet and can pass the knowledge on to those of us who havent been in the game as long
    Yes.... I was singling you out.....


    People can do whatever they want... it's their own health. I just think that for an average of $115 bucks and only a month worth of products, a little more can be spent to homebrew your own and have a 3 month cycle that will yeild better results with less of a detriment to ones health.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by oswizzle
    For some reason I think when u said 4 orals u were refering to my earlier post....I have all my supps for my Chol/BP on check dude...I am just asking questions cuz the people on this board know their shiet and can pass the knowledge on to those of us who havent been in the game as long
    It doesnt matter what supps you have as precautionairy measures, it still effects your body. Its just stupid to put all these orals in your body, when there is a much safer, proven alternative to them.

  7. nice post, well thought out, and for the better well being of all, your quite considerate.

  8. hence the question b4....thats why I am asking brother....I come with a whack Idea...u dudes put it in check..and in return u save me from screwing myself...as far as safer alternatives I am sure ur gonna drop the whole 'Pin Syndrome" on me right?....I'd be more then down ..just cant man up to do it

  9. good post
  10. Talking


    Quote Originally Posted by oswizzle
    hence the question b4....thats why I am asking brother....I come with a whack Idea...u dudes put it in check..and in return u save me from screwing myself...as far as safer alternatives I am sure ur gonna drop the whole 'Pin Syndrome" on me right?....I'd be more then down ..just cant man up to do it
    Yeah dude dont stack methyls. If you dont pin then just keep on keepin with the food and solid training.

    New labels for AAS reads " warning if you dont a) squat or deadlift. b)eat a planned diet c) training for 2+ years after 21
    then this product is not for you, consult your local library." Lol
    This is generalised not for you oswizzle.

  11. I agree with you to an extent, but when done properly...IMO short oral cycles still have their uses and can have their side effects minimized while still remaining quite effective. Therefore i have no problem with people running oral cycles as long as they do it responsibly. Granted that is a rare occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    To make matters worse I never see anyone warning them of the health issues inherent in these dangerous cycles. I'm tempted to post in these threads but there are so many and I really don't have the time or patience to go thread by thread.
    There are reasons why people don't post in these threads. There is an incredible amount of those threads for one, some people posting already know what were going to tell them, and another one is that even if we do give advise...few people listen. Sad but true.

    I remember a guy who against all advise stacked SD and H-50 or used high doses of one for long periods of time while never doing PCT or useing liver protecting supps. If i remember correctly he was in his 40's and said that he never experienced any major side effects, he also said that he didn't have blood work done either, and that he didn't was any more kids anyways. This guy is the perfect example of why knowlegable people feel like it's a waist of time to try to help all the people posting oral cycles, they usually dont listen or they disagree with us. At least that my take on it. I think this is one of those never-ending discussions.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by oswizzle
    hence the question b4....thats why I am asking brother....I come with a whack Idea...u dudes put it in check..and in return u save me from screwing myself...as far as safer alternatives I am sure ur gonna drop the whole 'Pin Syndrome" on me right?....I'd be more then down ..just cant man up to do it
    Just read your thread...

    And that's great! I hope you just take the advice to heart. This thread alone should be good enough to keep you from running 4 orals in a period of 6 weeks. Because you are right, there are some very intelligent guys on here.

    It's what kept me from doing a M1T and 1,4ADiol cycle. I finally tossed the junk a couple of weeks back. Wasn't worth the cost/benefit ratio (health / performance-muscle gain)

  13. good lookin out guys...looks like I got what i need from my question...

  14. To me not risking going to prison is a pretty nice benefit to staying oral.

    What person had an experience where their hdl never came back? There are ways to significantly minimize the negative effects. I also think there is a good argument for short cycles and their benefits HPTA and growth wise (oral or non-oral). Read ALR's Building the Perfect Beast. Another things to keep in mind is that injectables have negative effects on the lipids too (some more then others) even if they not as pronounced as orals.

    I understand the point of your post Null, and I agree with you to an extent. I just feel like you are almost going overboard on your argument against orals, especially when you pretty much disregard the legal aspect of things.

    As far as there being a few posts that get by without ppl being warned, that may be the case, but I think it is only because the seasoned members have gotten tired of the anabolics section. A PP or SD cycle can only be rehashed so many times and it seems there are, sadly, not many posts of interest in this section anymore.

  15. Good posting my friend even though I love those orals, I understand some run them because of their legalities. (myself included)But more or less, one has to think about the health issues because they think they are not as strong, which is totally false.
    Last edited by Apowerz6; 04-28-2006 at 05:08 PM.

  16. sorry natiels but i agree with null 100000%

    if you're worried about the legality then just don't use anything because those orals are SO harsh and and terrible for you

    and short cycles like that and the constant up and down of hormones does NOT create an environment conducive to retaining muscle mass

  17. I fall into the category of people who have stayed oral b/c of legality reasons. After busting my ass to get a Master's, and being in my first year teaching full-time, I'm not about to get banished from the education community over a law I disagree with. I don't see why that precludeds me as a candidate for using AAS, albeit in the oral form. Once I'm well-established in my job I'll definitely make the jump. If I knew someone locally, (to avoid risk of shipping/internet trail) I'd probably just make the jump now.

    The real fault for the oral craze lies with the manufacturers. Give me a mutha-bleep-in transdermal and I'm happy.

    I just did my first cycle with more than 1 oral. I used HD-50 with the remainder of my transdermal 4AD, then I took about 10 days off the orals, at which point I started M-TRN. HD-50 is methylated; M-TRN is not methylated, but has undergone a different alteration (forget the name) that makes it hepatoxic, though not nearly as severe. I also ran oral 1,4AD (an old PH) throughout.

    I got bloodwork before, and will get bloodwork again at the end of PCT. If bloodwork looks bad, I'll never do anything like this again. If it is good, I will proceed with caution, monitoring risk with bloodwork. If you're gonna invest in the cycle, invest in the bloodwork.

    One final point is that you seem to be overgeneralizing about orals. I have heard a lot of criticism of harshness, but have seen little evidence. Everyone was ready to crucify ALR for putting out M-TRN, but it turns out that it wasn't that harsh after all. Other new orals, such as Max LMG and Prostan are not methyls. Are they still hepatoxic? I don't know, but certainly not in the same realm as methyls. I'll be getting bloodwork soon, so I'll let you know.

  18. ^^^ Example of what to do ^^^

  19. Quote Originally Posted by natiels
    What person had an experience where their hdl never came back? ....

    snip....
    Bump to this, not doubting, would like to read experience/log.

    And I must say, just because one person has an issue does not mean the sides relate to everyone.

    Reminds me of the case against ephedra, just because some morbidly obese jerk runs triple the dose and keels over, doesn't mean it's bad for someone who is in good health and uses correct administration.

  20. Beelzebub gives good oral.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
    Beelzebub gives good oral.
    and Ubi with the comic relief.... perfect!

  22. teeeheee...

    He does, comes from being in the service.

    On a more serious note,

    I agree with Null, he makes very valid points. Many of the new designers are untested, and many of the injectables are tried and true for many years.. It's a fact that orals are much harsher on the body in a myriad of ways.

    You can, for all intents and purposes, be on an HRT dose of Test Cyp indefinitely without real fear of any negative consequences..

    moderation is ALWAYS going to be paramount when dealing with any hormones... or substances for that matter... sh1t, even food.

    Beo also has a great point.. From the legality standpoint, it is better to err on the side of caution than go haphazardly headfirst into something that you really won't shy away from once you do.

    I myself have decided to drop orals all together, and comfortably pin myself when I do go back on. The sweet comfortable sting of a 25g has grown on me... I value my health, and I owe that much to my wife and my future family. So as I said, when i DO decide to go back skinny dipping into the wonderful world of endocrine manipulation... I will stick myself pleasantly into that good night.

  23. So as I said, when i DO decide to go back skinny dipping into the wonderful world of endocrine manipulation... I will stick myself pleasantly into that good night.
    You make me piss myself laughing

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    M5AA, when it was legal, was a nice alternative to Halotestin. Not as strong a boost in strength, but not nearly as dangerous.
    .
    halos are a helluva drug

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    The real fault for the oral craze lies with the manufacturers. Give me a mutha-bleep-in transdermal and I'm happy.
    I was going to bring that up too. I agree with Null for the most part. Still, from all the blood work posted, and some not, I don't see most of the orals as significantly worse than the older orals. I've seen blood work from cycles that included anadrol that were worse than some SD cycles that were posted. Plus I've seen people make good gains from occasional 2on2off cycles. 12-16 week injectable cycles aren't for everyone. It's not always about needles, maybe they just don't want to explain 20lbs of new muscle to their family and friends.

    But I think this point stands: people have been requesting powders for quite some time to mix with some T gel, or good old pain free orals. They just haven't been delivered. Probably because it doesn't serve as large a market as orals, or the hormone itself just wasn't as good if dosed that way, who knows. Throw legality in with that and you can see why some would choose the legal oral route.
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